Insights from Apple's Operations and Supply Chain

The advent of social media has revolutionized the way companies like Apple share information about their operations and supply chain with the public. One of the most influential figures in this space is Ming Chi Kuo, a renowned analyst who often shares insights on Twitter about upcoming products and features. Mark Gurvin is another notable figure who posts rumors and analysis on Twitter. While these individuals have not always been accurate, their tweets can provide valuable information for Apple enthusiasts and investors.

Following these influencers has become an essential part of staying informed about Apple's latest developments. It allows users to verify or debunk rumors in real-time, making it easier to separate fact from fiction. For instance, when Ming Chi Kuo tweeted about the 12-inch MacBook, many fans eagerly awaited verification or denial from Apple. Similarly, Mark Gurvin's tweets about the IMAC were closely followed by enthusiasts and analysts alike.

In recent years, Twitter has become an essential platform for Apple-related information. Weibo is another popular Chinese social media platform where similar rumors and analysis are shared. This increased noise in the market can be overwhelming, but it also provides a wealth of information for those willing to dig through it.

The importance of verifying information cannot be overstated. While Ming Chi Kuo and Mark Gurvin have their own track records, not all third-party sources are reliable. It's essential to cross-check information with multiple sources, including Apple itself, to ensure accuracy.

Our team uses these insights from Apple's operations and supply chain to inform our forecasts and analysis. While we strive to provide accurate predictions, there is always some degree of uncertainty involved. The use of social media has accelerated this process, allowing us to stay in closer touch with our customers and support our work with the supply chain.

The last question posed to Ross was about his personal Apple device usage. He revealed that he currently uses a 12 Pro Max, MacBook Pro, former Apple Monitor, Cinema Display (now stored), Apple Watch, and an iPad Pro. Interestingly, he had initially considered upgrading to the newer models but ultimately decided against it due to concerns about display quality and other features.

The conversation also touched on the benefits of each device and Ross's personal preferences. He appreciated the camera capabilities of his 12 Pro Max and expressed enthusiasm for the potential upgrades in future Apple devices. The discussion concluded with an invitation for readers to follow Ross on Twitter, where he shares his insights and analysis with his followers.

In conclusion, social media has transformed the way companies like Apple share information about their operations and supply chain. By following influential figures like Ming Chi Kuo and Mark Gurvin, enthusiasts can stay informed about upcoming products and features. While verifying information is crucial, these influencers provide valuable insights that can be used to inform forecasts and analysis.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enwelcome back everyone to the macrame show podcast today we have another special guest we have ross young who is the co-founder and ceo of display supply chain consultants um and he is also just behind a lot of some prominent leaks as of late if you are unfamiliar with his work we got a lot of information back when the iphone 12 lineup was um about to come to fruition about whether it was going to have promotion technology or when it was going to feature oled displays and then with the 13 you got the promotion displays correct and the iphone se3 and all the stuff that could have possibly to do with displays ross young is 100 behind those leaks and i'm so excited to have him joining us on the show today ross how's it going it's going well i hope you uh hope you have an easier time than than i did with kobe it took me about eight days and i had to get the monoclonal antibody infusions on day five and then i was better shortly after that that's what it's called okay so wait you got it on day five yeah okay i think i'm on technically day six um so i was allowed to come to my office here no one works here so if anyone's concerned there's no one it's just me um but yeah i uh i guess for those who haven't seen my tweet or anything i was away on vacation for two days i took our kids to disney world and right before we could even go to the parks we all got covered um so we had to get in our rental car and drive uh it's 18 hours it shouldn't take us this long but it took us three days because we were all just struggling to drive in the car for more than a few hours at a time so we're working on it i am doing okay but if i cough a lot in this podcast everyone please i'll try to mute myself if i can remember but i apologize um but enough about covid it's terrible you should avoid it at all costs but what's not terrible is ross and his work and we're going to talk about we're going to talk about how some of these display rumors fit in because i'm actually pretty unfamiliar about the specifics and i think hartley you're kind of in the same boat as me like how does a normal like day look for you with leaks and everything is this just kind of on the side and like what is your business and kind of just fill us in on what your like day-to-day work is sure so we are so we sell to all of the companies in the display supply chain anyone that buys a display or makes a display so companies like samsung samsung display apple google boe auo companies like that so the kind of information that they want from us is like how big is the market getting uh what's the volume going to be next quarter what's the volume going to be in five years what are the display trends you know what's the 120 hertz share what's the greater than 120 hertz share what's the oled share uh what's the mini led share uh so all of that kind of content so in order for us to really dig deep into the market we need to do it on a model by model level so we create a supply chain for every single model in the market so iphone 14 pro max you know what's the volume this quarter what's the volume for the next 16 quarter or the next few quarters um how much is uh going to come from samsung display how much is going to come from lg display and we have to do that for every product so we have to know what's coming and as part of that you know we get some insight uh into you know features of those products so that's sometimes they're a big part of our our business sometimes uh people really don't care that are our customers but people on twitter really care um so like i get access to visibility into all the colors of certain brands smartphones well in advance you know do my customers care about that not really um so but i i post it on twitter because i know there are people that care about that okay so that kind of i had a very invasive question but you kind of answered that i was going to be like how do you make money doing like what what your job is like what is the display but you see you have customers that are doing things that are not at all related to this whole world of leaking this is just something that well you're getting this information anyway so you might as well share it and that doesn't breach or you know come across anything that's you shouldn't be doing or i mean apple hasn't hunted you down yet but i'm sure they're not particularly happy about it you know apple's been a customer of mine since like 1990 let's see seven or 1998. um so it's a very long-term relationship you know i know the the top display engineering people quite well and you know some of their executives even spoke at our conferences that we used to have for the display industry before apple's policy changed around not speaking at industry event so greg joswiak actually spoke at one of our events nice and he he introduced me to steve jobs in the cafeteria at apple after one of my visits which was pretty amazing um so yeah i have a good relationship with them i asked them recently i saw them at our uh at one of our conferences and i asked uh you know are they upset by uh all these leaks about apple products and you know obviously you guys i mean a lot of people have been doing it for a long time and so they said they're used to it and i asked them what they thought of the road map that i published regarding like the whole and under display camera under display face id and they're like yeah thanks for that now we don't have to do it you know you've done it for us so okay so they that's interesting that they like remain a customer and they remain cool even though you've been pretty accurate with some of this information and like you know leaking information that they probably don't want want getting out ahead of time um but they seem to be okay with that with you that's that's actually really cool yeah i i tend to correct other people's misinformation as well so um you know i think they maybe they appreciate that they don't want the they don't want potential customers knowing the wrong thing or thinking the wrong thing is coming um so you know when the uh macbook pros with mini leds and promotion came out um you know we were the only ones to talk about that you know because i wanted people to know that this was coming they should get excited about it um and uh and the whole a lot of people in the industry were surprised about it so promotion doesn't exist on other notebooks variable refresh doesn't exist elsewhere besides that apple and so the whole you know pc industry was caught caught on they didn't see that coming and so now they're kind of looking into that more and we'll probably see more competitive products similar products from others and i suppose it's kind of a two-way street really with a lot of rumors and leaks because like you say it it sort of generates a bit of enthusiasm so as much as apple doesn't like leaks ostensibly um they kind of do because it's it's doing their marketing for them especially i suppose it sets expectations a little bit yeah i mean people are always talking about what's coming and uh they're constantly in the tech news so uh you know that's great free press i'm sure they they appreciate the buzz about their products well i think a lot of people would think that you can't tell that much just from a display um with regards to what that will really mean for a whole product but of course there's so many elements to a display um that reveal really quite a lot of the functionality of the device you think of things like promotion or the exact display technology i mean people are definitely understanding a lot more now about the differences between led mini led and oled um and then even functionality like always on and we see how that bleeds through into software what with lock screen widgets now in ios 16. so the display really kind of is the is the center of the device and i suppose that's why even though your expertise ross is really the display it gives us so much insight from a reporting perspective on the wider elements of the device yeah that's one of the reasons i became a display analyst you know i could have been a semiconductor analyst and you know the semiconductor industry is much bigger um much more profitable but it's um it's not as sexy i mean you don't see you don't get excited by seeing you know the latest chip you know you can't see the benefit of the next shrink in die sizes right i mean that's that's not sexy you know seeing an 85 inch 8k display with crystal clear images you know that's cool um and just seeing all the advances you know that work that we've seen in smartphones and in foldables and all these other applications all these other technologies i mean it's much more you know visible to everybody it's easier to grasp the improvement and you know you i still have some old early generation uh flat panel tvs and flat panel monitors and it's amazing to see how much better the performance is and the display industry you know has not made a lot of money yet they've given all of this value to consumers um and you know it's unfortunate that it's been kind of an unprofitable industry because they the technology is pretty pretty cool so speaking of um sexy i think i think a new uh larger apple watch would get people going and uh so there's some there's some buzz going around about that recently um and you know obviously in order to make the apple watch larger you're gonna have to make the display larger so i think this is where you perfectly come in here um what are you hearing about the the latest i guess it's they're the extreme sports version or i don't know the name changes it was like explorer edition and i don't know the name doesn't matter there could be a larger display version on the way so if you have any info about that that you'd like to share that would be great yeah i mean we've been putting that in our reports for some time now uh at least six months um a 1.9 inch display coming from lg display on an exclusive basis um so we don't get into all of the marketing of the final product so um you know we don't we tend not to have visibility into that so i have no idea what they're going to call it i just know that we're going to start seeing these displays shipping let me uh get the latest information real quick because so what we do is we survey the panel suppliers and their suppliers about when all new products are shipping um so we get pretty good visibility uh into all new display products so i'm not sure if it's q3 or q4 let me just double check here well it's expected to be this year right so we're probably thinking i would think it's q3 but i just want to double check that the uh what the panel number so i know it's not the highest volume product uh from uh from a smartwatch perspective which you know certainly means it's uh gonna be a little more expensive and we've heard some rumors about a pretty high price already um so uh that could explain that but let's see almost fair quarterly i think we heard from bloomberg's montgomery that we're expecting a price tag near to a thousand dollars at this point which would make sense if it created a more high-end model something like whether it's apple watch pro or you know if it's if it's boasting maybe if it's basically taking the place of where the apple watch edition used to be i suppose that would make sense what that was like what did that start at cuz i think you can max it at 17 grand we're not looking at that right well they still sold the addition with the titanium models well i think they still do with the series seven and that's what 800 700 something like that they don't call it the edition anymore they just sell it with the titanium right i think it's still edition is it i thought that name went away i think it is i'm not sure though i mean i it's it's telling that that neither of us actually have one yeah i mean i'm not spending that much i like i have the standard one actually i think stainless steel i used to go aluminum for the longest time but you know the stainless steel does look a bit nicer so you got what what um quarter did you find there yeah so we have around a million units in q3 and a little over a million units in q4 so it's certainly going to be a lot lower volume than the 1.9 inch uh so it makes sense that that would signal it's going to be a much higher price point it's going to choke off a lot of the demand what's the standard watch volume at yeah like around four okay so four times less uh is what they're expecting so definitely going to be expensive for all of you listening out there who are interested in getting the pro version of the next watch you might need to pony up some more money um so that's that's cool one thing i was interested in asking you ross was um a lot of the rumors we've been hearing is that this apple watch could have a new design um a sort of with flat edges and a flat display would that be something that you would be aware of is actually the shape of a display or the extent to which it's it's flexible or how that's implemented because that would provide us with a lot of insight about the the actual design um well we know it is a flexible oled all of apple's uh smart watch displays are but we don't know if it's got flat edges or flat shape or we don't have visibility into that we we do see that for like uh smartphones for the for the phone itself whether it's got 2g or 2 and a half g or 3g cover glass um but in the case of smart watches now we don't have visibility into that unfortunately that's a bummer because i was hoping that we can actually finally get some closure on whether it's going to be flat or rounded because it's been years of this conversation i guess we'll have to wait a few more months i guess so speaking of waiting i just love segways like this speaking of waiting for so long uh what's going on with the 27-inch mini led display i'm guessing that would be for um the next update to the studio display yeah we had heard that they were going to try and get it uh get it out um i think it was in the middle of the year q3 but um because of the shutdowns in china and in shanghai they were moving production either to another kwana line or um to a different company and so now we're hearing it's more like early 23. and that's uh is that going to include anything like promotion or um you know how is this going to fit in the lineup with what we already have from apple yeah i certainly oh you know if they're going to do many leds they're going to do promotion so far they've gone together um in every product on the ipads and the macbook pros and ipad pro so um i mean you could argue that with a monitor you don't need to go below 60 hertz you're not worried about power consumption um you really only want to toggle between like 60 and 120 hertz what's the real benefit of going to 24 hertz on the monitor right um so you could argue you really don't need promotion on the monitor but on the other hand you know you you do want higher refresh rates so we see companies going to 120 hertz and is you know and higher than that as much as 500 hertz so i think you know apple on their higher end products they tend to use an oxide or an igzo display which does perform better at high refresh so they could call the promotion because you need igzo for promotion or oled um so they could do igzo and offer the below 60hz but no one would really use it but i think certainly they're going to offer a very good display there um that would be able to to get to a higher refresh and still perform very well with with minimal you know issues and for simplicity apple would probably still market it as promotion yeah i think so as well um you know so the benefit of the oxide at higher refresh it's going to consume less power as well so um then in the morning i'm sure they'd like to show off sure and i suppose the other thing that you then have to think is that if this is sitting above the studio display in the lineup this is going to be a seriously expensive display it's going to be getting a lot more into the territory of the pro display xdr if indeed it it does perhaps replace that device i don't know whether it would be capable of doing that yeah um you know people there's still some demand for a you know 6k xdr with mini leds but i mean that will be very very expensive um i think the market is quite limited so maybe they you know in the 27 inch isn't the biggest monitor in the world you know which is what we heard that they were going to use for this mini led product you know clearly there's room for a bigger monitor in their product line i mean i have a 34 inch monitor in two different homes and uh just bought my sun on 34 inch monitor for his birthday um he turned 17 that's what he wanted um he actually has a 50-inch an old-school 50-inch plasma tv and a 34-inch monitor in his bedroom so he's definitely this is a display analyst yeah to have 84 inches of display space on in his bedroom i'm very proud of him you set him up to never leave his room is what you did that is an issue that is an issue i mean the plasma tv is old uh obviously but um but um yeah there's no reason for him to leave so moving on to the macbook air the 15.2 inch macbook or macbook air i think the naming is still a little bit uncertain is something you talk quite a bit about ross so what's the the latest update on that on that larger sort of uh middle of the road macbook that's going to sit between the current 13.6 inch macbook air and then the 14-inch macbook pro um so yeah we see a uh 15.2 inch macbook air uh coming um and uh we talked about that for uh probably late probably early next year um and uh and then we talked about a 13.6 inch macbook air also that would be um later this year so we definitely see two new uh macbook air products coming and it will be interesting to see really where that larger macbook fits into the line if it is indeed a macbook air because i know a lot of there is something that will have wanted for many years yeah i mean they seem to really be rounding out their product line now that they're doing their own sets it gives them their own uh their own processor so that gives them a lot of flexibility um you know they're going to refresh products more frequently they can refresh them on a different cycle than the intel adopters um you know into all the intel um new chipsets they tend to all the brands tend to release new products at the same time uh so that's very advantageous for apple it gives them a lot more flexibility to have different timing um and you know we really see them introducing a lot of introducing and upgrading a lot of products so you know we think they'll definitely take some share um in in tablets and and computers as a result i suppose it's quite easy to see where a 15.2 inch macbook air fits into the lineup but the one product that you've talked quite a lot about especially in recent months that has really got people interested because people just can't work out how it fits into the lineup is this 14-inch ipad um so i was wondering if you could sort of update us on the on the 14-inch ipad and maybe we can explore a little bit why that is such a such an enigma yeah i agree with that one um you know we did see some people leaking about it we tried to follow up and we did get one company to confirm that they were working on it um but it does seem strange when we've heard from that one company that it wasn't going to be mini led based so why would you do a larger than 12.9 inch um 12.9 inch macbook pro and migrate to 14 or whatever and not do mini led then you're trying to offer a larger display that's going to probably have a lower price um and it's kind of not really very uh compatible with apple's strategy of trying to deliver um you know always trying to deliver more and more value and better and better performance why would they go to a larger size with less performance um so that's a little unclear um and we haven't gotten as much reconfirmations as we'd like so we did hear it from at least one company but we'd like to hear it about it for more as possible that that there is uh it's possible that that product may not come after all so we're still trying to track that one but we did hear that it would not be mini led to me you know apple needs to have a transition when they move oled to mint to i mean when they move the ipad pros to oled what do they do with mini led do they drop any led completely or do they migrate mini led to 14 or 15 or 16 you know offer an even larger ipad but cheap but fit it in behind you know the larger size the highest the highest end of the product line you know they're the only ones that have really done a mini led tablet um it's kind of you know they're now it's kind of a hallmark for them now do they just abandon it and do oleds like everybody else or do they continue to keep mini led in the product line but go to a larger size where oleds today are not as cost competitive so it's much more difficult to make a 15 inch oled than it is an 11 inch oled but many leds it's equally easy to do an 11 inch versus a 15 inch um you have a lot of suppliers it's not as technically challenging you don't have issues with with yield that you do with oleds where you have issues as the panel gets larger it tends to be harder to achieve high yields um so you know i'm not i'm not giving up that they're going to do a larger mini led ipad but um currently we're not showing it well that actually kind of leads me to something else that we wanted to ask you about which was the 11-inch ipad pro because with all the rumors we've been hearing you know the the 12.9 inch already has mini led and in the long term i think you forecasted that it will be 2024 when both the 12.9 inch and the 11 inch move to oled so it kind of leaves the 11 inch ipad pro in a bit of a bit of a weird place um especially considering it's supposed to be a pro device it's kind of getting a little bit left behind there so i was interested in if you had any insight into that strategy is it going to be the case that the 11 inch will just stick with its current display technology until it makes the jump to oled in 2024 or will it um have mini led at some point sooner than that maybe next year our understanding is that apple will the smallest is for many led at apple will be 12.9 inch they want to focus mini led on larger uh higher end higher price point products and they don't want to push the 11 inch up to a much higher price point so we don't see it changing at the moment um and uh you know there will be no change until 2024 when oled ipads come in both 11 inch and 20 and 12.9 inch and the 11 inch volumes will be higher we think than the 12.9 inch uh by quite a bit they they have pretty aggressive targets already for 2024 oled volumes um so it looks to us like they're gonna there's going to be a complete transition at 11 and 12.9 that they're not going to keep the mini led model around just kind of an interim with the 12.9 inch yeah do you use any ipads ross i do have the 11 inch i was gonna say which one do you really like it what do you use it for i'm just genuinely curious well i fly back and forth between san diego and austin a lot so i consume a lot of content you know netflix apple apple content um whatever on on that device um and uh yeah so i really enjoy it for for watching streaming media um you know i'll do emails um with it um i don't really create a lot of content with it i don't have the apple pencil or anything although there's a it is compatible with the 11 inch but uh yeah it's mostly just a content consumption device you know an iphone is too small to be as immersive in the media as as immersive in the content as you'd like i find that the ipad does a better job with that sure can you do your whole job on an ipad i don't think so okay what about a full team yeah too slow you type too slow maybe you know i typed too slow on an ipad for some reason well like if you had the keyboard and everything built to it it should be okay right sure yeah yeah yeah i mean my notebook is 13 inch so a 14 inch ipad would be uh you know more space so you know there's no reason with now that you know stage manager gives you multiple windows that you should i think people will be increasingly comfortable working from you know future ipad devices um just to go back for a second just to be really clear the 14.1 inch ipad you're not expecting that to have mini led or promotion it would effectively be um say the same as the the ipad air that's what we've heard yeah and um sometimes you've heard information about the bezels of these devices so i'm thinking about when you are reported about the uh 8.3 inch ipad mini and you talked a little bit about how that would have uh no home button and reduced reduced bezels um obviously the ipad mini and the ipad air have the same size bezels but they're slightly thinner on the ipad pro so i wonder if the bezels could give us a bit of insight into whether this is an ipad pro or whether it's a different sort of ipad on this 14 inch model i don't know if you've heard nothing about the bezels for that just yet i haven't heard anything just yet you know one thing that's interesting is since i've been in the industry way back to 1995 that narrower bezels have been the trend in every single application so it you know tvs monitors notebooks automotive it's all been about a narrow bezel the entire time you know almost 20 years um so that's a it's just a way another way that the display industry differentiates and tries to capture more value you know there was so much bezel on like early tvs and monitors you know crazy looking back i was going to say in the next 20 years of your career i don't think we can get much smaller than where we're at now so you shouldn't have to hear too much about them being reduced yeah there's a big effort now to to reduce the bezels on all four sides so i mean we've seen it on the on the edges we've seen it on the top uh you know a lot of products still have a bigger chin on the bottom um but uh samsung's embarking on a very aggressive plan to to go to like zero bezel on on all four sides um for in smartphones and probably in other applications as well and sure the rest of the industry will try and emulate that i suppose tablets are the only place where that really is a little bit of a concern or at least where there may not be such a push because you still want somewhere you can you can grip the the tablet from sure that is true although i think for a lot of these larger ones i can't imagine there's a whole lot of people out there that are holding their 12.9 inch that's true or 14-inch you know like if you were to tell me that anything above 11 inch got had no bezels and you you really couldn't hold it in your hands and be like that's fine i don't i don't want to hold it in my hands i want it docked on something um or you know a lot of the times if i'm if i am holding it in my hands i have it like like kind of underneath i have to position this correctly with the with the frame here like kind of cut like underneath it like you're cusping it um you can't really hold it like this anymore so i'm okay with them removing bezels on an ipad for larger ones at least well i suppose everything becomes a bit different when you're talking about ipads of that size i mean uh at the moment even on the 12.9 inch ipad it is a little bit ridiculous that the apple logo is that way around that the truedepth camera array is on that way round considering that 99 of people are using it with the magic keyboard docked uh in landscape and a 14-inch ipad's going to be used in that kind of workflow even more so i wonder if when we start seeing the next kind of generation of of ipad designs particularly for those larger sizes maybe it will be kick-started by this 14-inch ipad um whether we'll see the ipad moving to that kind of landscape design i think that would make sense so wait are these four is the camera still going to be not in landscape for the next generation yeah i don't know the answer to that but it's on the display you should it you should have that info right it's there um i mean the display manufacturers haven't told us that uh information certainly if we saw one we'd be able to tell you that but yeah i mean in my with my ipad you know i hold it by the tape you know i don't really hold it by the display itself so you know i think people increasingly use cases and external keyboards like you said and you know i don't i don't see that i i think that the trend will continue with narrow bezels all right i'm still holding out hope then that they will put it in landscaping just because you don't know the information because if you did you would tell us and that would pretty much squash it so there's still hope sure that we don't have to keep doing this weird thing with the bigger ipads and or like move my head that's what i usually have to do move my head for it to see my face and read it it doesn't make any sense but all right so i i feel a little better about that then i'll say one other thing about that and that's that we expect to see under panel cameras you know in ipads so that will also allow you to reduce the bezel because you don't lose that space that you have for the camera um so that will really drop um so you know now we've seen tablets with notches right and so now the notch will disappear when they go to under panel cameras and under panel face id which you'll start to see in like 2024 in iphones and it's a lot easier to do with tablets and notebooks because the uh dot pitch the aperture is so much bigger the resolution is so much lower you know you're like 500 ppi on a smartphone you're at 200 ppi or whatever on a tablet or notebook and so it's a lot easier to squeeze that camera in there or sensors and so if they can do it with phones they can easily do it with tablets and notebooks and that'll allow for an even you know tighter device with smaller bezels is there any time frame on that at the moment i know you've spoken a little bit about that for the iphone and kind of how we're going to see uh the notch kind of being reduced to a hole punch and then going totally under display and then trickling down from the pro to the standard models over kind of the next five to seven years i can't remember the exact the exact time frame so that you laid out but would that happen in tandem with the iphone do you think or is that something for uh maybe a later date i mean since it's the volumes are so much lower it's it's uh and the uh technical requirements are so much easier i do think we could even see it next year it's kind of an issue about the cooperation between the display teams and the sensor team so just because you can make the display transparent enough to achieve a decent performance for the camera and good enough performance on the sensors you still have to deliver a really good image and that's where you have to get the sensor teams involved and then there may need to be compensation particularly around video and uh so you may need faster processors you may need you know some specialized software um with with notebooks and tablets it's also easier because the display is rigid while in the iphone the display is flexible and has a yellow plastic substrate so when you shine the camera the first thing it hits is this yellow substrate so you have to get the yellow out of the picture but with smart but with phones i mean with notebooks and tablets you don't have that problem so there's less compensation necessary in notebooks and tablets or a rigid oled smartphone like you've seen from a few brands in china interesting so i suppose that um you won't actually be able to tell that from looking at pictures of the panel um if it's under display would that be right at least what you would see at your end would it be more like would it be more like samsung's uh foldable where you could kind of see it depending on how you were looking at it um and you can see like the pixels over the camera but you know for the most part it was kind of hard to tell yeah i think it'll be much better in the future i think samsung's was not a great engineering solution um and the chinese actually had better solutions than what samsung had from my perspective because yeah you could see a lot of the the pixels um and if you know for who wants a four megapixel camera right um you know that was pretty poor um so i think they'll do it better with the fold four and you know i think we'll only get better solutions from next year i think you know the panel suppliers already qualified for the under panel face id um and uh but it's gonna take apple that long to get it into a final product because of the integration issues the sensor collaborations with the display teams and any software necessary et cetera so right but on a you know we they might be able to do it fast faster on a lower volume product like an ipad or a macbook and to kind of um go back a second we were talking about landscape ipads you were the first one to give us a sort of concrete confirmation that the iphone 14 pro would have this pill and hole punch design there were already some images circulating on twitter but you really uh you gave us that that sort of reliable confirmation that was happening so i suppose um well i'm supposed i'm asking how did you come to come come to know that um and would that same kind of information in the future be applicable to understanding if those cutouts were moving on the ipad uh yes so we got the information by asking apple's panel suppliers who confirmed it um those same panel suppliers will be making the ipad the oled ipads and the oled macbooks so they are our customers um and uh we would continue to deliver that kind of information okay um we've also spoken quite a bit about uh quite a bit about notebooks and talking just just the word notebook it reminds me of uh a rumor that you you came out with um not that long ago that was really interesting which was the apple foldable notebook i'm using the word notebook selectively because this is kind of where i'm going with the question which is i wonder if it's actually an ipad pro rather than a macbook necessarily so um do you want to kind of update us on uh what you what you think apple is working on i think you said for sort of 2026 2027 if it even if it even is released yeah so um um apple uh would address this product with an existing fab so gen 6 so it could have potentially happened sooner than that um so it could be even 2025. uh 20 inch panelization which is like a term to express the efficiency of how many cuts you get and how much area is wasted is actually a good size for a gen 6 fab it's not too bad so it's something that apple could do um you know sooner than later um they don't need to wait till 2026 or 2027. you know the expectation is a new class of fabs called gen 8.5 uh is where apple's going to buy future oled uh macbook pro panels from and so that fab would start from samsung in uh like end of 2024 but it wouldn't have a tandem stack so it may actually take until uh samsung's second line at gen 8.5 before apple starts uh using uh buying panels from that fab because apple really wants the tandem stack which gives you twice the efficiency and like 30 lower power and much greater lifetimes um so that gen 8.5 fab will actually not be foldable you won't be able to make foldable panels from that fab it'll be more cost effective because it'll be a lower cost rigid substrate but it'll still be thin because it'll be rigid plus tfe so rather than a second piece of glass over it to encapsulate it they will put down a layer of silicon nitride which will encapsulate it so it'll be thin it'll be less lower cost the larger substrate will bring down the cost as well as a lower cost back plane so the way you talk about back plane cap x is how many mass like in semiconductors we have tens and tens of mass and displays you could get away with as few as four for oleds you're like between 10 and 20. um ltpo is more like between 15 and 20 but an igco could be like seven or eight an oxide or an igco backlight so that's kind of where the industry is moving to bring oled costs down in future notebooks and make them uh much less costly than uh midi leds and more competitive with like existing uh oxide lcds so you'll still still get promotion in a similar range maybe better um but it'll be oled and it'll be much lower cost but you may see like a 14 inch or 16 inch oled notebook after the foldable which is interesting so they could do 20 inch foldable before a 14 inch or 16. we are hearing that they'll do a 13.3 inch from samsung display in 2024 that would be a notebook um that would be yeah it would be a macbook uh device either air or a pro but you know the the the names air and pro and maybe something called studio you know which we've seen on the desktop you know maybe you know those those names keep blending you know we see the display you know we heard the 20s would be a notebook you know maybe that's with the obvious uh expectation from the display suppliers but you know you could be right maybe it is some sort of uh ipad or hybrid device or um you know maybe it's a future imac because you know it basically is an all-in-one right so who knows i suppose that's one of the most interesting rumors going forwards just because it's it's kind of unclear what form that will take and there's there's a lot of new technologies to be to be showcased there yeah and if apple was to do a foldable iphone the uh volume on the cover window would be the real limitation like is there enough volume of capacity for cover windows to support apple and the answer today is no and so in order for apple to do a foldable phone we have to see a big increase in cover window capacity but for a 20 inch foldable notebook or ipad or all-in-one or whatever you want to call it it's not going to do obviously iphone-like volumes it's going to be priced very high volumes will be low and it's something more digestible from a supply chain perspective to build cover window capacity so that could be you know uh that could be apple's first foray into foldables and maybe give them confidence to to build out more help build out more capacity on the cover windows side so do you think that's one of the main reasons then why we haven't seen a foldable iphone yet especially considering uh how many iterations we've seen now of foldable uh smartphones from samsung is this one of those limiting factors that really does explain why apple hasn't got that yet because apple's definitely come under fire for you know being being too slow or for not keeping up with the competition yeah i i think um that is certainly one of the reasons another reason is you know they would be paying samsung a higher share of the total bomb of the phone because samsung would provide the display would be the majority supply of the display and the display is a higher percentage of the cost in the foldable and you could say the same thing with the cover window the cover window is a higher percentage of the cost in a foldable versus a regular uh iphone and so why why would they want to just make samsung rich right um yeah so you know they would be giving more margin the samsung and they would have less margin their margins would be down unless they really raised the price a lot um but if samsung's move towards introducing a galaxy a type foldable price point in 2024 is true where you have like the z flip at 799 in the fold four or the fold at like 11.99 now you're getting to where you can buy uh you know these high-end foldables for less than an iphone with all this additional functionality kind of backing apple into a corner and sure there's people that love ios and hate android and would never switch but it would be for people that are you know more neutral on that it would be more compelling i think to move to a foldable if you're talking about those types of price points absolutely interesting to kind of prove that use case with a larger foldable first especially if they can if they can get the volume with the the cover windows because we often see that apple sort of um they set out these technologies on higher end devices i mean take uh something like lidar it came first to the ipad pro if i remember rightly before coming to the iphone 12 something like promotion also started on the ipad um even in the long term i suppose we're going to end up saying usbc was first on the the ipad before trickling down to the iphone so i guess in the long term if we're going to see how uh apple's os's play with a foldable display um it would kind of make sense for that to take place on a kind of tablet or notebook style integra implementation first before we we see it on a smaller cheaper device see but that's what's that's what scares me about that is that like apple's going to do that they're going to pick a device that maybe not a lot of people it's just not a maybe it's true not as many people are using a macbook or an ipad as they are an iphone there's just more volume there that's part of the reason why they can't do these things because they just like you said they can't supply the the the the they can't supply them so i mean i'm scared that they're gonna do something like that in a device that isn't going to sell well and then they're just going to be like oh no the demand's not there when in reality i think the huge there would be huge demand for a foldable iphone over something like a folder foldable ipad or macbook am i wrong oh i think there would be a lot of demand for a foldable iphone i i bought uh the z flip and uh i really liked it but i didn't like use the android experience i'm just used to ios i'm old and that's what i'm used to and and uh but you know i'm a cyclist and so the the clam shell phone is really good for cycling because it doesn't get sweaty doesn't get wet um it because the phone is folded it doesn't like turn my phone on or i mean uh make your butt dials my camera isn't on um it's just much more robust and you know it takes up less space and i really like it for uh cycling um and you know so there are some use cases for those types of phones and it's fun to whip it out and flip it around um you know but i do think that there is an opportunity for a foldable tablet and you know i think that the volumes that we see on a tablet are small enough that apple could do it um because you know the tablets are getting bigger and bigger right you know 14 and a half inches now from samsung and uh and they're harder to carry if you fold them once you know you could potentially fit it in your pocket if you fold it twice it's it's basically the size of a phone um and it could be with some advances the size of an existing like fold four um so i think that could kind of breathe new life into the tablet category which has kind of been you know traditionally a slower growing category over the past few years compared to notebooks and um so i wouldn't be surprised to see that maybe even um you know in 2024 from samsung like having a multi-folding uh tablet uh for people that don't want to have to carry a big display and have it fit in your pocket and get that convergence functionality um and get you that big screen that you want and i think rollable is the same kind of thing i really like rollable for phones because um you're not going to have that seam down the middle you know you're going to have potentially a seam at the edges and when it's rolled up you'll never even notice the seam it's only when it's rolled out that you could notice the seam and you know we're seeing um you know a lot of progress with hinges um you know that's producing the seam anyways but you know i do think you know if they can get over the mechanical issues with rollable it would also help level the playing field away from samsung because the rollable display challenges don't seem as great as foldable and so you could have the chinese delivering rollable at uh at high volumes and aggressive price points and making rollable happen more aggressively so do you think that apple would go then um the flip route or the fold route because i was always envisioning the fold but now that you mentioned the flip again that that would be kind of intriguing too i i think they're looking at it as a convergence device so kind of the full grout um you know maybe it's a compliment to the ipad mini it could be the same size as the ipad mini when uh unfolded um and get allow them to hit a higher price point but you know on the other hand the benefit of the mini is it goes after a lower price point so would they really do that um but on the other hand why not just introduce a uh a flip type product and see how it does especially if samsung's gonna be at 7.99 it's already proven to be the winner from a volume perspective in foldables like we know the flip 4 is going to sell really well you know actually i'm seeing production in august at 2 million units which is fantastic but we don't know about the full device because it's thick it's a higher price point you know it hasn't sold as well in the past um you know less than half of what the flip volumes have been each year and it tends to have a short run maybe it sells for three months and then it kind of really trails off quick while the flip continues to sell well for like 12 months so if apple's looking at it from a volume perspective they would say oh they should do the flip but if you're looking at it from maximizing the price point and having a convergence product that maybe they could outperform relative to samsung and that high price point that samsung offers gives a lot of room for differentiation you could go larger than seven six or smaller than seven six um you know we've seen lower prices we've seen higher prices so i don't think we have the winning formula yet for a full tight device but we clearly have it with the flip type device so talking to these suppliers and uh trying to trying to gather information to kind of draw these conclusions i'm curious if apple's suppliers and the supply chains for apple's devices stand out in any way compared to other companies is it is it the case that they are that their suppliers are more secretive with those contracts or are they basically all the same behind the scenes um so i would say that uh you know apple suppliers are more secretive but um there's a way to get the the same level of detail if not even more um based on your supply chain relationships i see i'm not suggesting anything illegal i'm just saying that you know we're able to get the information in in the same way it's just like if you talk to someone in marketing at a display supplier they wouldn't know anything or they wouldn't tell you anything but if you talk to you know someone else or if you talk to them to their suppliers it might be they it might be easier to get the information you know everybody needs the everybody needs apple's forecasts in the supply chain so they know what to build to so the data exists it's just a matter of finding the people that have the data and that are willing to discuss it with you and how closely are you following uh many of the other the other names that we follow uh in our line of work at least so i'm thinking of people like um ming chi kuo or mark german people that uh have insights into different ends of apple's operations and and supply chain i'm wondering if you if you use those to assemble your own insights or whether you use them kind of as a little bit of a way in to know where to start with something or whether it's just a curiosity or maybe you don't follow them at all um you know we hadn't really followed them that often until this year you know now that uh ming chi kuo is on twitter and uh mark girvin seems to be posting more on twitter when they publish these rumors we'll try and verify them um so and uh if we can't verify them we may say you know we don't think that's the case like the 12-inch macbook you know we have not been able to verify that that product um but the imac was another one wasn't it i appreciate yeah i appreciate them uh posting this information because it gives us something to try and confirm or deny um keeps us in contact with our with our customers in our support with our with our with people in the supply chain so you know it accelerates the interaction i would say and beyond those uh particular names do you find that there's just more information coming through twitter coming from sort of uh maybe weibo places that uh this information was not coming from 10 years ago for sure yeah definitely so it takes a lot of time to keep track of all this you know it's not something we had to do in the past we would just put together our forecasts interview the supply chain and then uh publish our information now there's just a lot more noise but i i appreciate it um like i said you know it accelerates the interaction um it makes sure we're not missing anything most of the time um those third-party sources are wrong you know not not saying mark and ming chi but the other ones you know the people that are just out there you don't know who they are they don't work for a company they're just out there tweeting stuff you know a lot of times they're all you know they're way off um you know maybe they talk to somebody you talk to somebody and they think they have all the information it really helps to verify the information with multiple sources you know in the supply chain um to really know what's happening i think the last thing that we have for you it's a pretty pretty easy question i think uh what apple devices do you currently use so i have a 12 pro max a macbook pro i have uh i used to have an apple monitor a cinema display that i stocked on i do have i do have an apple watch um but i actually use my garmin for swimming um it just uploads easier to garmin and strava uh i have to figure out how to do that on the apple watch maybe somebody maybe one of your listeners can send me a shortcut uh oh i'm sure they will that's really about it oh yeah and the 11 inch uh ipad pro i have so wait did you purposefully not upgrade to the 13 because you knew that the 14 was gonna have uh a different display and gonna be a little bit better and and more of an upgrade than the 13 or she's not someone who upgrades every year anyways there's nothing wrong with my 12 pro max i mean i wish it had lcpo it would be cool to have 120 hertz but it's a perfectly good smartphone it has served me well um you know i'm i think the the one hertz capability and the always on display will be nice on the 14 but you know i i might wait for usbc on the 15th so you know i haven't decided yet ross thank you so much for joining us i really appreciate it i don't feel yeah sure go ahead what were you going to say i was going gonna say i'm not the kind of person that needs to upgrade every year but i mean i think when i used to hand them down to my kids you know uh i would we would do that but at the moment um i haven't made the decision to upgrade yet all right yeah they're old enough to get their own stuff now anyways right so yeah yeah although the camera you know the 48 megapixel camera would be nice so i'll have to hear more about the benefits of it so we'll see what happens at launch you're going to be tempted ross again thank you so much for joining us um please feel free to take this time to uh you know shout out your twitter and any place that you guys uh you know want people to follow you um now's the time yeah at dfcc ross please uh check me out do you do the super follows yes i have uh super followers as well nice go super follow him everyone and again thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate it thankswelcome back everyone to the macrame show podcast today we have another special guest we have ross young who is the co-founder and ceo of display supply chain consultants um and he is also just behind a lot of some prominent leaks as of late if you are unfamiliar with his work we got a lot of information back when the iphone 12 lineup was um about to come to fruition about whether it was going to have promotion technology or when it was going to feature oled displays and then with the 13 you got the promotion displays correct and the iphone se3 and all the stuff that could have possibly to do with displays ross young is 100 behind those leaks and i'm so excited to have him joining us on the show today ross how's it going it's going well i hope you uh hope you have an easier time than than i did with kobe it took me about eight days and i had to get the monoclonal antibody infusions on day five and then i was better shortly after that that's what it's called okay so wait you got it on day five yeah okay i think i'm on technically day six um so i was allowed to come to my office here no one works here so if anyone's concerned there's no one it's just me um but yeah i uh i guess for those who haven't seen my tweet or anything i was away on vacation for two days i took our kids to disney world and right before we could even go to the parks we all got covered um so we had to get in our rental car and drive uh it's 18 hours it shouldn't take us this long but it took us three days because we were all just struggling to drive in the car for more than a few hours at a time so we're working on it i am doing okay but if i cough a lot in this podcast everyone please i'll try to mute myself if i can remember but i apologize um but enough about covid it's terrible you should avoid it at all costs but what's not terrible is ross and his work and we're going to talk about we're going to talk about how some of these display rumors fit in because i'm actually pretty unfamiliar about the specifics and i think hartley you're kind of in the same boat as me like how does a normal like day look for you with leaks and everything is this just kind of on the side and like what is your business and kind of just fill us in on what your like day-to-day work is sure so we are so we sell to all of the companies in the display supply chain anyone that buys a display or makes a display so companies like samsung samsung display apple google boe auo companies like that so the kind of information that they want from us is like how big is the market getting uh what's the volume going to be next quarter what's the volume going to be in five years what are the display trends you know what's the 120 hertz share what's the greater than 120 hertz share what's the oled share uh what's the mini led share uh so all of that kind of content so in order for us to really dig deep into the market we need to do it on a model by model level so we create a supply chain for every single model in the market so iphone 14 pro max you know what's the volume this quarter what's the volume for the next 16 quarter or the next few quarters um how much is uh going to come from samsung display how much is going to come from lg display and we have to do that for every product so we have to know what's coming and as part of that you know we get some insight uh into you know features of those products so that's sometimes they're a big part of our our business sometimes uh people really don't care that are our customers but people on twitter really care um so like i get access to visibility into all the colors of certain brands smartphones well in advance you know do my customers care about that not really um so but i i post it on twitter because i know there are people that care about that okay so that kind of i had a very invasive question but you kind of answered that i was going to be like how do you make money doing like what what your job is like what is the display but you see you have customers that are doing things that are not at all related to this whole world of leaking this is just something that well you're getting this information anyway so you might as well share it and that doesn't breach or you know come across anything that's you shouldn't be doing or i mean apple hasn't hunted you down yet but i'm sure they're not particularly happy about it you know apple's been a customer of mine since like 1990 let's see seven or 1998. um so it's a very long-term relationship you know i know the the top display engineering people quite well and you know some of their executives even spoke at our conferences that we used to have for the display industry before apple's policy changed around not speaking at industry event so greg joswiak actually spoke at one of our events nice and he he introduced me to steve jobs in the cafeteria at apple after one of my visits which was pretty amazing um so yeah i have a good relationship with them i asked them recently i saw them at our uh at one of our conferences and i asked uh you know are they upset by uh all these leaks about apple products and you know obviously you guys i mean a lot of people have been doing it for a long time and so they said they're used to it and i asked them what they thought of the road map that i published regarding like the whole and under display camera under display face id and they're like yeah thanks for that now we don't have to do it you know you've done it for us so okay so they that's interesting that they like remain a customer and they remain cool even though you've been pretty accurate with some of this information and like you know leaking information that they probably don't want want getting out ahead of time um but they seem to be okay with that with you that's that's actually really cool yeah i i tend to correct other people's misinformation as well so um you know i think they maybe they appreciate that they don't want the they don't want potential customers knowing the wrong thing or thinking the wrong thing is coming um so you know when the uh macbook pros with mini leds and promotion came out um you know we were the only ones to talk about that you know because i wanted people to know that this was coming they should get excited about it um and uh and the whole a lot of people in the industry were surprised about it so promotion doesn't exist on other notebooks variable refresh doesn't exist elsewhere besides that apple and so the whole you know pc industry was caught caught on they didn't see that coming and so now they're kind of looking into that more and we'll probably see more competitive products similar products from others and i suppose it's kind of a two-way street really with a lot of rumors and leaks because like you say it it sort of generates a bit of enthusiasm so as much as apple doesn't like leaks ostensibly um they kind of do because it's it's doing their marketing for them especially i suppose it sets expectations a little bit yeah i mean people are always talking about what's coming and uh they're constantly in the tech news so uh you know that's great free press i'm sure they they appreciate the buzz about their products well i think a lot of people would think that you can't tell that much just from a display um with regards to what that will really mean for a whole product but of course there's so many elements to a display um that reveal really quite a lot of the functionality of the device you think of things like promotion or the exact display technology i mean people are definitely understanding a lot more now about the differences between led mini led and oled um and then even functionality like always on and we see how that bleeds through into software what with lock screen widgets now in ios 16. so the display really kind of is the is the center of the device and i suppose that's why even though your expertise ross is really the display it gives us so much insight from a reporting perspective on the wider elements of the device yeah that's one of the reasons i became a display analyst you know i could have been a semiconductor analyst and you know the semiconductor industry is much bigger um much more profitable but it's um it's not as sexy i mean you don't see you don't get excited by seeing you know the latest chip you know you can't see the benefit of the next shrink in die sizes right i mean that's that's not sexy you know seeing an 85 inch 8k display with crystal clear images you know that's cool um and just seeing all the advances you know that work that we've seen in smartphones and in foldables and all these other applications all these other technologies i mean it's much more you know visible to everybody it's easier to grasp the improvement and you know you i still have some old early generation uh flat panel tvs and flat panel monitors and it's amazing to see how much better the performance is and the display industry you know has not made a lot of money yet they've given all of this value to consumers um and you know it's unfortunate that it's been kind of an unprofitable industry because they the technology is pretty pretty cool so speaking of um sexy i think i think a new uh larger apple watch would get people going and uh so there's some there's some buzz going around about that recently um and you know obviously in order to make the apple watch larger you're gonna have to make the display larger so i think this is where you perfectly come in here um what are you hearing about the the latest i guess it's they're the extreme sports version or i don't know the name changes it was like explorer edition and i don't know the name doesn't matter there could be a larger display version on the way so if you have any info about that that you'd like to share that would be great yeah i mean we've been putting that in our reports for some time now uh at least six months um a 1.9 inch display coming from lg display on an exclusive basis um so we don't get into all of the marketing of the final product so um you know we don't we tend not to have visibility into that so i have no idea what they're going to call it i just know that we're going to start seeing these displays shipping let me uh get the latest information real quick because so what we do is we survey the panel suppliers and their suppliers about when all new products are shipping um so we get pretty good visibility uh into all new display products so i'm not sure if it's q3 or q4 let me just double check here well it's expected to be this year right so we're probably thinking i would think it's q3 but i just want to double check that the uh what the panel number so i know it's not the highest volume product uh from uh from a smartwatch perspective which you know certainly means it's uh gonna be a little more expensive and we've heard some rumors about a pretty high price already um so uh that could explain that but let's see almost fair quarterly i think we heard from bloomberg's montgomery that we're expecting a price tag near to a thousand dollars at this point which would make sense if it created a more high-end model something like whether it's apple watch pro or you know if it's if it's boasting maybe if it's basically taking the place of where the apple watch edition used to be i suppose that would make sense what that was like what did that start at cuz i think you can max it at 17 grand we're not looking at that right well they still sold the addition with the titanium models well i think they still do with the series seven and that's what 800 700 something like that they don't call it the edition anymore they just sell it with the titanium right i think it's still edition is it i thought that name went away i think it is i'm not sure though i mean i it's it's telling that that neither of us actually have one yeah i mean i'm not spending that much i like i have the standard one actually i think stainless steel i used to go aluminum for the longest time but you know the stainless steel does look a bit nicer so you got what what um quarter did you find there yeah so we have around a million units in q3 and a little over a million units in q4 so it's certainly going to be a lot lower volume than the 1.9 inch uh so it makes sense that that would signal it's going to be a much higher price point it's going to choke off a lot of the demand what's the standard watch volume at yeah like around four okay so four times less uh is what they're expecting so definitely going to be expensive for all of you listening out there who are interested in getting the pro version of the next watch you might need to pony up some more money um so that's that's cool one thing i was interested in asking you ross was um a lot of the rumors we've been hearing is that this apple watch could have a new design um a sort of with flat edges and a flat display would that be something that you would be aware of is actually the shape of a display or the extent to which it's it's flexible or how that's implemented because that would provide us with a lot of insight about the the actual design um well we know it is a flexible oled all of apple's uh smart watch displays are but we don't know if it's got flat edges or flat shape or we don't have visibility into that we we do see that for like uh smartphones for the for the phone itself whether it's got 2g or 2 and a half g or 3g cover glass um but in the case of smart watches now we don't have visibility into that unfortunately that's a bummer because i was hoping that we can actually finally get some closure on whether it's going to be flat or rounded because it's been years of this conversation i guess we'll have to wait a few more months i guess so speaking of waiting i just love segways like this speaking of waiting for so long uh what's going on with the 27-inch mini led display i'm guessing that would be for um the next update to the studio display yeah we had heard that they were going to try and get it uh get it out um i think it was in the middle of the year q3 but um because of the shutdowns in china and in shanghai they were moving production either to another kwana line or um to a different company and so now we're hearing it's more like early 23. and that's uh is that going to include anything like promotion or um you know how is this going to fit in the lineup with what we already have from apple yeah i certainly oh you know if they're going to do many leds they're going to do promotion so far they've gone together um in every product on the ipads and the macbook pros and ipad pro so um i mean you could argue that with a monitor you don't need to go below 60 hertz you're not worried about power consumption um you really only want to toggle between like 60 and 120 hertz what's the real benefit of going to 24 hertz on the monitor right um so you could argue you really don't need promotion on the monitor but on the other hand you know you you do want higher refresh rates so we see companies going to 120 hertz and is you know and higher than that as much as 500 hertz so i think you know apple on their higher end products they tend to use an oxide or an igzo display which does perform better at high refresh so they could call the promotion because you need igzo for promotion or oled um so they could do igzo and offer the below 60hz but no one would really use it but i think certainly they're going to offer a very good display there um that would be able to to get to a higher refresh and still perform very well with with minimal you know issues and for simplicity apple would probably still market it as promotion yeah i think so as well um you know so the benefit of the oxide at higher refresh it's going to consume less power as well so um then in the morning i'm sure they'd like to show off sure and i suppose the other thing that you then have to think is that if this is sitting above the studio display in the lineup this is going to be a seriously expensive display it's going to be getting a lot more into the territory of the pro display xdr if indeed it it does perhaps replace that device i don't know whether it would be capable of doing that yeah um you know people there's still some demand for a you know 6k xdr with mini leds but i mean that will be very very expensive um i think the market is quite limited so maybe they you know in the 27 inch isn't the biggest monitor in the world you know which is what we heard that they were going to use for this mini led product you know clearly there's room for a bigger monitor in their product line i mean i have a 34 inch monitor in two different homes and uh just bought my sun on 34 inch monitor for his birthday um he turned 17 that's what he wanted um he actually has a 50-inch an old-school 50-inch plasma tv and a 34-inch monitor in his bedroom so he's definitely this is a display analyst yeah to have 84 inches of display space on in his bedroom i'm very proud of him you set him up to never leave his room is what you did that is an issue that is an issue i mean the plasma tv is old uh obviously but um but um yeah there's no reason for him to leave so moving on to the macbook air the 15.2 inch macbook or macbook air i think the naming is still a little bit uncertain is something you talk quite a bit about ross so what's the the latest update on that on that larger sort of uh middle of the road macbook that's going to sit between the current 13.6 inch macbook air and then the 14-inch macbook pro um so yeah we see a uh 15.2 inch macbook air uh coming um and uh we talked about that for uh probably late probably early next year um and uh and then we talked about a 13.6 inch macbook air also that would be um later this year so we definitely see two new uh macbook air products coming and it will be interesting to see really where that larger macbook fits into the line if it is indeed a macbook air because i know a lot of there is something that will have wanted for many years yeah i mean they seem to really be rounding out their product line now that they're doing their own sets it gives them their own uh their own processor so that gives them a lot of flexibility um you know they're going to refresh products more frequently they can refresh them on a different cycle than the intel adopters um you know into all the intel um new chipsets they tend to all the brands tend to release new products at the same time uh so that's very advantageous for apple it gives them a lot more flexibility to have different timing um and you know we really see them introducing a lot of introducing and upgrading a lot of products so you know we think they'll definitely take some share um in in tablets and and computers as a result i suppose it's quite easy to see where a 15.2 inch macbook air fits into the lineup but the one product that you've talked quite a lot about especially in recent months that has really got people interested because people just can't work out how it fits into the lineup is this 14-inch ipad um so i was wondering if you could sort of update us on the on the 14-inch ipad and maybe we can explore a little bit why that is such a such an enigma yeah i agree with that one um you know we did see some people leaking about it we tried to follow up and we did get one company to confirm that they were working on it um but it does seem strange when we've heard from that one company that it wasn't going to be mini led based so why would you do a larger than 12.9 inch um 12.9 inch macbook pro and migrate to 14 or whatever and not do mini led then you're trying to offer a larger display that's going to probably have a lower price um and it's kind of not really very uh compatible with apple's strategy of trying to deliver um you know always trying to deliver more and more value and better and better performance why would they go to a larger size with less performance um so that's a little unclear um and we haven't gotten as much reconfirmations as we'd like so we did hear it from at least one company but we'd like to hear it about it for more as possible that that there is uh it's possible that that product may not come after all so we're still trying to track that one but we did hear that it would not be mini led to me you know apple needs to have a transition when they move oled to mint to i mean when they move the ipad pros to oled what do they do with mini led do they drop any led completely or do they migrate mini led to 14 or 15 or 16 you know offer an even larger ipad but cheap but fit it in behind you know the larger size the highest the highest end of the product line you know they're the only ones that have really done a mini led tablet um it's kind of you know they're now it's kind of a hallmark for them now do they just abandon it and do oleds like everybody else or do they continue to keep mini led in the product line but go to a larger size where oleds today are not as cost competitive so it's much more difficult to make a 15 inch oled than it is an 11 inch oled but many leds it's equally easy to do an 11 inch versus a 15 inch um you have a lot of suppliers it's not as technically challenging you don't have issues with with yield that you do with oleds where you have issues as the panel gets larger it tends to be harder to achieve high yields um so you know i'm not i'm not giving up that they're going to do a larger mini led ipad but um currently we're not showing it well that actually kind of leads me to something else that we wanted to ask you about which was the 11-inch ipad pro because with all the rumors we've been hearing you know the the 12.9 inch already has mini led and in the long term i think you forecasted that it will be 2024 when both the 12.9 inch and the 11 inch move to oled so it kind of leaves the 11 inch ipad pro in a bit of a bit of a weird place um especially considering it's supposed to be a pro device it's kind of getting a little bit left behind there so i was interested in if you had any insight into that strategy is it going to be the case that the 11 inch will just stick with its current display technology until it makes the jump to oled in 2024 or will it um have mini led at some point sooner than that maybe next year our understanding is that apple will the smallest is for many led at apple will be 12.9 inch they want to focus mini led on larger uh higher end higher price point products and they don't want to push the 11 inch up to a much higher price point so we don't see it changing at the moment um and uh you know there will be no change until 2024 when oled ipads come in both 11 inch and 20 and 12.9 inch and the 11 inch volumes will be higher we think than the 12.9 inch uh by quite a bit they they have pretty aggressive targets already for 2024 oled volumes um so it looks to us like they're gonna there's going to be a complete transition at 11 and 12.9 that they're not going to keep the mini led model around just kind of an interim with the 12.9 inch yeah do you use any ipads ross i do have the 11 inch i was gonna say which one do you really like it what do you use it for i'm just genuinely curious well i fly back and forth between san diego and austin a lot so i consume a lot of content you know netflix apple apple content um whatever on on that device um and uh yeah so i really enjoy it for for watching streaming media um you know i'll do emails um with it um i don't really create a lot of content with it i don't have the apple pencil or anything although there's a it is compatible with the 11 inch but uh yeah it's mostly just a content consumption device you know an iphone is too small to be as immersive in the media as as immersive in the content as you'd like i find that the ipad does a better job with that sure can you do your whole job on an ipad i don't think so okay what about a full team yeah too slow you type too slow maybe you know i typed too slow on an ipad for some reason well like if you had the keyboard and everything built to it it should be okay right sure yeah yeah yeah i mean my notebook is 13 inch so a 14 inch ipad would be uh you know more space so you know there's no reason with now that you know stage manager gives you multiple windows that you should i think people will be increasingly comfortable working from you know future ipad devices um just to go back for a second just to be really clear the 14.1 inch ipad you're not expecting that to have mini led or promotion it would effectively be um say the same as the the ipad air that's what we've heard yeah and um sometimes you've heard information about the bezels of these devices so i'm thinking about when you are reported about the uh 8.3 inch ipad mini and you talked a little bit about how that would have uh no home button and reduced reduced bezels um obviously the ipad mini and the ipad air have the same size bezels but they're slightly thinner on the ipad pro so i wonder if the bezels could give us a bit of insight into whether this is an ipad pro or whether it's a different sort of ipad on this 14 inch model i don't know if you've heard nothing about the bezels for that just yet i haven't heard anything just yet you know one thing that's interesting is since i've been in the industry way back to 1995 that narrower bezels have been the trend in every single application so it you know tvs monitors notebooks automotive it's all been about a narrow bezel the entire time you know almost 20 years um so that's a it's just a way another way that the display industry differentiates and tries to capture more value you know there was so much bezel on like early tvs and monitors you know crazy looking back i was going to say in the next 20 years of your career i don't think we can get much smaller than where we're at now so you shouldn't have to hear too much about them being reduced yeah there's a big effort now to to reduce the bezels on all four sides so i mean we've seen it on the on the edges we've seen it on the top uh you know a lot of products still have a bigger chin on the bottom um but uh samsung's embarking on a very aggressive plan to to go to like zero bezel on on all four sides um for in smartphones and probably in other applications as well and sure the rest of the industry will try and emulate that i suppose tablets are the only place where that really is a little bit of a concern or at least where there may not be such a push because you still want somewhere you can you can grip the the tablet from sure that is true although i think for a lot of these larger ones i can't imagine there's a whole lot of people out there that are holding their 12.9 inch that's true or 14-inch you know like if you were to tell me that anything above 11 inch got had no bezels and you you really couldn't hold it in your hands and be like that's fine i don't i don't want to hold it in my hands i want it docked on something um or you know a lot of the times if i'm if i am holding it in my hands i have it like like kind of underneath i have to position this correctly with the with the frame here like kind of cut like underneath it like you're cusping it um you can't really hold it like this anymore so i'm okay with them removing bezels on an ipad for larger ones at least well i suppose everything becomes a bit different when you're talking about ipads of that size i mean uh at the moment even on the 12.9 inch ipad it is a little bit ridiculous that the apple logo is that way around that the truedepth camera array is on that way round considering that 99 of people are using it with the magic keyboard docked uh in landscape and a 14-inch ipad's going to be used in that kind of workflow even more so i wonder if when we start seeing the next kind of generation of of ipad designs particularly for those larger sizes maybe it will be kick-started by this 14-inch ipad um whether we'll see the ipad moving to that kind of landscape design i think that would make sense so wait are these four is the camera still going to be not in landscape for the next generation yeah i don't know the answer to that but it's on the display you should it you should have that info right it's there um i mean the display manufacturers haven't told us that uh information certainly if we saw one we'd be able to tell you that but yeah i mean in my with my ipad you know i hold it by the tape you know i don't really hold it by the display itself so you know i think people increasingly use cases and external keyboards like you said and you know i don't i don't see that i i think that the trend will continue with narrow bezels all right i'm still holding out hope then that they will put it in landscaping just because you don't know the information because if you did you would tell us and that would pretty much squash it so there's still hope sure that we don't have to keep doing this weird thing with the bigger ipads and or like move my head that's what i usually have to do move my head for it to see my face and read it it doesn't make any sense but all right so i i feel a little better about that then i'll say one other thing about that and that's that we expect to see under panel cameras you know in ipads so that will also allow you to reduce the bezel because you don't lose that space that you have for the camera um so that will really drop um so you know now we've seen tablets with notches right and so now the notch will disappear when they go to under panel cameras and under panel face id which you'll start to see in like 2024 in iphones and it's a lot easier to do with tablets and notebooks because the uh dot pitch the aperture is so much bigger the resolution is so much lower you know you're like 500 ppi on a smartphone you're at 200 ppi or whatever on a tablet or notebook and so it's a lot easier to squeeze that camera in there or sensors and so if they can do it with phones they can easily do it with tablets and notebooks and that'll allow for an even you know tighter device with smaller bezels is there any time frame on that at the moment i know you've spoken a little bit about that for the iphone and kind of how we're going to see uh the notch kind of being reduced to a hole punch and then going totally under display and then trickling down from the pro to the standard models over kind of the next five to seven years i can't remember the exact the exact time frame so that you laid out but would that happen in tandem with the iphone do you think or is that something for uh maybe a later date i mean since it's the volumes are so much lower it's it's uh and the uh technical requirements are so much easier i do think we could even see it next year it's kind of an issue about the cooperation between the display teams and the sensor team so just because you can make the display transparent enough to achieve a decent performance for the camera and good enough performance on the sensors you still have to deliver a really good image and that's where you have to get the sensor teams involved and then there may need to be compensation particularly around video and uh so you may need faster processors you may need you know some specialized software um with with notebooks and tablets it's also easier because the display is rigid while in the iphone the display is flexible and has a yellow plastic substrate so when you shine the camera the first thing it hits is this yellow substrate so you have to get the yellow out of the picture but with smart but with phones i mean with notebooks and tablets you don't have that problem so there's less compensation necessary in notebooks and tablets or a rigid oled smartphone like you've seen from a few brands in china interesting so i suppose that um you won't actually be able to tell that from looking at pictures of the panel um if it's under display would that be right at least what you would see at your end would it be more like would it be more like samsung's uh foldable where you could kind of see it depending on how you were looking at it um and you can see like the pixels over the camera but you know for the most part it was kind of hard to tell yeah i think it'll be much better in the future i think samsung's was not a great engineering solution um and the chinese actually had better solutions than what samsung had from my perspective because yeah you could see a lot of the the pixels um and if you know for who wants a four megapixel camera right um you know that was pretty poor um so i think they'll do it better with the fold four and you know i think we'll only get better solutions from next year i think you know the panel suppliers already qualified for the under panel face id um and uh but it's gonna take apple that long to get it into a final product because of the integration issues the sensor collaborations with the display teams and any software necessary et cetera so right but on a you know we they might be able to do it fast faster on a lower volume product like an ipad or a macbook and to kind of um go back a second we were talking about landscape ipads you were the first one to give us a sort of concrete confirmation that the iphone 14 pro would have this pill and hole punch design there were already some images circulating on twitter but you really uh you gave us that that sort of reliable confirmation that was happening so i suppose um well i'm supposed i'm asking how did you come to come come to know that um and would that same kind of information in the future be applicable to understanding if those cutouts were moving on the ipad uh yes so we got the information by asking apple's panel suppliers who confirmed it um those same panel suppliers will be making the ipad the oled ipads and the oled macbooks so they are our customers um and uh we would continue to deliver that kind of information okay um we've also spoken quite a bit about uh quite a bit about notebooks and talking just just the word notebook it reminds me of uh a rumor that you you came out with um not that long ago that was really interesting which was the apple foldable notebook i'm using the word notebook selectively because this is kind of where i'm going with the question which is i wonder if it's actually an ipad pro rather than a macbook necessarily so um do you want to kind of update us on uh what you what you think apple is working on i think you said for sort of 2026 2027 if it even if it even is released yeah so um um apple uh would address this product with an existing fab so gen 6 so it could have potentially happened sooner than that um so it could be even 2025. uh 20 inch panelization which is like a term to express the efficiency of how many cuts you get and how much area is wasted is actually a good size for a gen 6 fab it's not too bad so it's something that apple could do um you know sooner than later um they don't need to wait till 2026 or 2027. you know the expectation is a new class of fabs called gen 8.5 uh is where apple's going to buy future oled uh macbook pro panels from and so that fab would start from samsung in uh like end of 2024 but it wouldn't have a tandem stack so it may actually take until uh samsung's second line at gen 8.5 before apple starts uh using uh buying panels from that fab because apple really wants the tandem stack which gives you twice the efficiency and like 30 lower power and much greater lifetimes um so that gen 8.5 fab will actually not be foldable you won't be able to make foldable panels from that fab it'll be more cost effective because it'll be a lower cost rigid substrate but it'll still be thin because it'll be rigid plus tfe so rather than a second piece of glass over it to encapsulate it they will put down a layer of silicon nitride which will encapsulate it so it'll be thin it'll be less lower cost the larger substrate will bring down the cost as well as a lower cost back plane so the way you talk about back plane cap x is how many mass like in semiconductors we have tens and tens of mass and displays you could get away with as few as four for oleds you're like between 10 and 20. um ltpo is more like between 15 and 20 but an igco could be like seven or eight an oxide or an igco backlight so that's kind of where the industry is moving to bring oled costs down in future notebooks and make them uh much less costly than uh midi leds and more competitive with like existing uh oxide lcds so you'll still still get promotion in a similar range maybe better um but it'll be oled and it'll be much lower cost but you may see like a 14 inch or 16 inch oled notebook after the foldable which is interesting so they could do 20 inch foldable before a 14 inch or 16. we are hearing that they'll do a 13.3 inch from samsung display in 2024 that would be a notebook um that would be yeah it would be a macbook uh device either air or a pro but you know the the the names air and pro and maybe something called studio you know which we've seen on the desktop you know maybe you know those those names keep blending you know we see the display you know we heard the 20s would be a notebook you know maybe that's with the obvious uh expectation from the display suppliers but you know you could be right maybe it is some sort of uh ipad or hybrid device or um you know maybe it's a future imac because you know it basically is an all-in-one right so who knows i suppose that's one of the most interesting rumors going forwards just because it's it's kind of unclear what form that will take and there's there's a lot of new technologies to be to be showcased there yeah and if apple was to do a foldable iphone the uh volume on the cover window would be the real limitation like is there enough volume of capacity for cover windows to support apple and the answer today is no and so in order for apple to do a foldable phone we have to see a big increase in cover window capacity but for a 20 inch foldable notebook or ipad or all-in-one or whatever you want to call it it's not going to do obviously iphone-like volumes it's going to be priced very high volumes will be low and it's something more digestible from a supply chain perspective to build cover window capacity so that could be you know uh that could be apple's first foray into foldables and maybe give them confidence to to build out more help build out more capacity on the cover windows side so do you think that's one of the main reasons then why we haven't seen a foldable iphone yet especially considering uh how many iterations we've seen now of foldable uh smartphones from samsung is this one of those limiting factors that really does explain why apple hasn't got that yet because apple's definitely come under fire for you know being being too slow or for not keeping up with the competition yeah i i think um that is certainly one of the reasons another reason is you know they would be paying samsung a higher share of the total bomb of the phone because samsung would provide the display would be the majority supply of the display and the display is a higher percentage of the cost in the foldable and you could say the same thing with the cover window the cover window is a higher percentage of the cost in a foldable versus a regular uh iphone and so why why would they want to just make samsung rich right um yeah so you know they would be giving more margin the samsung and they would have less margin their margins would be down unless they really raised the price a lot um but if samsung's move towards introducing a galaxy a type foldable price point in 2024 is true where you have like the z flip at 799 in the fold four or the fold at like 11.99 now you're getting to where you can buy uh you know these high-end foldables for less than an iphone with all this additional functionality kind of backing apple into a corner and sure there's people that love ios and hate android and would never switch but it would be for people that are you know more neutral on that it would be more compelling i think to move to a foldable if you're talking about those types of price points absolutely interesting to kind of prove that use case with a larger foldable first especially if they can if they can get the volume with the the cover windows because we often see that apple sort of um they set out these technologies on higher end devices i mean take uh something like lidar it came first to the ipad pro if i remember rightly before coming to the iphone 12 something like promotion also started on the ipad um even in the long term i suppose we're going to end up saying usbc was first on the the ipad before trickling down to the iphone so i guess in the long term if we're going to see how uh apple's os's play with a foldable display um it would kind of make sense for that to take place on a kind of tablet or notebook style integra implementation first before we we see it on a smaller cheaper device see but that's what's that's what scares me about that is that like apple's going to do that they're going to pick a device that maybe not a lot of people it's just not a maybe it's true not as many people are using a macbook or an ipad as they are an iphone there's just more volume there that's part of the reason why they can't do these things because they just like you said they can't supply the the the the they can't supply them so i mean i'm scared that they're gonna do something like that in a device that isn't going to sell well and then they're just going to be like oh no the demand's not there when in reality i think the huge there would be huge demand for a foldable iphone over something like a folder foldable ipad or macbook am i wrong oh i think there would be a lot of demand for a foldable iphone i i bought uh the z flip and uh i really liked it but i didn't like use the android experience i'm just used to ios i'm old and that's what i'm used to and and uh but you know i'm a cyclist and so the the clam shell phone is really good for cycling because it doesn't get sweaty doesn't get wet um it because the phone is folded it doesn't like turn my phone on or i mean uh make your butt dials my camera isn't on um it's just much more robust and you know it takes up less space and i really like it for uh cycling um and you know so there are some use cases for those types of phones and it's fun to whip it out and flip it around um you know but i do think that there is an opportunity for a foldable tablet and you know i think that the volumes that we see on a tablet are small enough that apple could do it um because you know the tablets are getting bigger and bigger right you know 14 and a half inches now from samsung and uh and they're harder to carry if you fold them once you know you could potentially fit it in your pocket if you fold it twice it's it's basically the size of a phone um and it could be with some advances the size of an existing like fold four um so i think that could kind of breathe new life into the tablet category which has kind of been you know traditionally a slower growing category over the past few years compared to notebooks and um so i wouldn't be surprised to see that maybe even um you know in 2024 from samsung like having a multi-folding uh tablet uh for people that don't want to have to carry a big display and have it fit in your pocket and get that convergence functionality um and get you that big screen that you want and i think rollable is the same kind of thing i really like rollable for phones because um you're not going to have that seam down the middle you know you're going to have potentially a seam at the edges and when it's rolled up you'll never even notice the seam it's only when it's rolled out that you could notice the seam and you know we're seeing um you know a lot of progress with hinges um you know that's producing the seam anyways but you know i do think you know if they can get over the mechanical issues with rollable it would also help level the playing field away from samsung because the rollable display challenges don't seem as great as foldable and so you could have the chinese delivering rollable at uh at high volumes and aggressive price points and making rollable happen more aggressively so do you think that apple would go then um the flip route or the fold route because i was always envisioning the fold but now that you mentioned the flip again that that would be kind of intriguing too i i think they're looking at it as a convergence device so kind of the full grout um you know maybe it's a compliment to the ipad mini it could be the same size as the ipad mini when uh unfolded um and get allow them to hit a higher price point but you know on the other hand the benefit of the mini is it goes after a lower price point so would they really do that um but on the other hand why not just introduce a uh a flip type product and see how it does especially if samsung's gonna be at 7.99 it's already proven to be the winner from a volume perspective in foldables like we know the flip 4 is going to sell really well you know actually i'm seeing production in august at 2 million units which is fantastic but we don't know about the full device because it's thick it's a higher price point you know it hasn't sold as well in the past um you know less than half of what the flip volumes have been each year and it tends to have a short run maybe it sells for three months and then it kind of really trails off quick while the flip continues to sell well for like 12 months so if apple's looking at it from a volume perspective they would say oh they should do the flip but if you're looking at it from maximizing the price point and having a convergence product that maybe they could outperform relative to samsung and that high price point that samsung offers gives a lot of room for differentiation you could go larger than seven six or smaller than seven six um you know we've seen lower prices we've seen higher prices so i don't think we have the winning formula yet for a full tight device but we clearly have it with the flip type device so talking to these suppliers and uh trying to trying to gather information to kind of draw these conclusions i'm curious if apple's suppliers and the supply chains for apple's devices stand out in any way compared to other companies is it is it the case that they are that their suppliers are more secretive with those contracts or are they basically all the same behind the scenes um so i would say that uh you know apple suppliers are more secretive but um there's a way to get the the same level of detail if not even more um based on your supply chain relationships i see i'm not suggesting anything illegal i'm just saying that you know we're able to get the information in in the same way it's just like if you talk to someone in marketing at a display supplier they wouldn't know anything or they wouldn't tell you anything but if you talk to you know someone else or if you talk to them to their suppliers it might be they it might be easier to get the information you know everybody needs the everybody needs apple's forecasts in the supply chain so they know what to build to so the data exists it's just a matter of finding the people that have the data and that are willing to discuss it with you and how closely are you following uh many of the other the other names that we follow uh in our line of work at least so i'm thinking of people like um ming chi kuo or mark german people that uh have insights into different ends of apple's operations and and supply chain i'm wondering if you if you use those to assemble your own insights or whether you use them kind of as a little bit of a way in to know where to start with something or whether it's just a curiosity or maybe you don't follow them at all um you know we hadn't really followed them that often until this year you know now that uh ming chi kuo is on twitter and uh mark girvin seems to be posting more on twitter when they publish these rumors we'll try and verify them um so and uh if we can't verify them we may say you know we don't think that's the case like the 12-inch macbook you know we have not been able to verify that that product um but the imac was another one wasn't it i appreciate yeah i appreciate them uh posting this information because it gives us something to try and confirm or deny um keeps us in contact with our with our customers in our support with our with our with people in the supply chain so you know it accelerates the interaction i would say and beyond those uh particular names do you find that there's just more information coming through twitter coming from sort of uh maybe weibo places that uh this information was not coming from 10 years ago for sure yeah definitely so it takes a lot of time to keep track of all this you know it's not something we had to do in the past we would just put together our forecasts interview the supply chain and then uh publish our information now there's just a lot more noise but i i appreciate it um like i said you know it accelerates the interaction um it makes sure we're not missing anything most of the time um those third-party sources are wrong you know not not saying mark and ming chi but the other ones you know the people that are just out there you don't know who they are they don't work for a company they're just out there tweeting stuff you know a lot of times they're all you know they're way off um you know maybe they talk to somebody you talk to somebody and they think they have all the information it really helps to verify the information with multiple sources you know in the supply chain um to really know what's happening i think the last thing that we have for you it's a pretty pretty easy question i think uh what apple devices do you currently use so i have a 12 pro max a macbook pro i have uh i used to have an apple monitor a cinema display that i stocked on i do have i do have an apple watch um but i actually use my garmin for swimming um it just uploads easier to garmin and strava uh i have to figure out how to do that on the apple watch maybe somebody maybe one of your listeners can send me a shortcut uh oh i'm sure they will that's really about it oh yeah and the 11 inch uh ipad pro i have so wait did you purposefully not upgrade to the 13 because you knew that the 14 was gonna have uh a different display and gonna be a little bit better and and more of an upgrade than the 13 or she's not someone who upgrades every year anyways there's nothing wrong with my 12 pro max i mean i wish it had lcpo it would be cool to have 120 hertz but it's a perfectly good smartphone it has served me well um you know i'm i think the the one hertz capability and the always on display will be nice on the 14 but you know i i might wait for usbc on the 15th so you know i haven't decided yet ross thank you so much for joining us i really appreciate it i don't feel yeah sure go ahead what were you going to say i was going gonna say i'm not the kind of person that needs to upgrade every year but i mean i think when i used to hand them down to my kids you know uh i would we would do that but at the moment um i haven't made the decision to upgrade yet all right yeah they're old enough to get their own stuff now anyways right so yeah yeah although the camera you know the 48 megapixel camera would be nice so i'll have to hear more about the benefits of it so we'll see what happens at launch you're going to be tempted ross again thank you so much for joining us um please feel free to take this time to uh you know shout out your twitter and any place that you guys uh you know want people to follow you um now's the time yeah at dfcc ross please uh check me out do you do the super follows yes i have uh super followers as well nice go super follow him everyone and again thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate it thanks\n"