The Future of TV: Renegotiated Deals and Canceled Shows

I think some of them just reup straight away but it's through everything I mean I know Silo was actually in production of its second series and I cannot find out for anybody whether it's resuming for its second series. I believe Silo is resuming, I I do know uh from people discussing it Severance has resumed filming so Seance is coming back thank goodness cuz that was such a good show um yeah we'll we'll see I mean obviously the other ones uh for all man kind already pretty much confirmed um Foundation is coming back so we'll we'll see about the rest but uh some of these shows that have been canceled I was really excited for and yeah they're more the B tier Apple TV Plus shows. But on a positive note, Apple announced the fifth season order for Slow Horses but I already knew it had that because uh a year ago now they two at a time well they were at least prepared I knew last January I knew they'd already finished the fourth and that they were at least in expectation of a fifth so they were working on it and then they did the whole thing of arranging Gary Oldman's schedule so that all his stuff, including RW One, got filmed before the actor strike kicked in. So they were ready and could keep going for it. I mean a lot of the casts are British so they're not part of uh SAG after but Gary Oldman obviously is so there was a lot of logistics and jiggling and they've kept going so I think they did a marvelous job there.

The Apple TV Plus Strike: A Necessary Evil

The strike was essential, and Writers Guild and SAG-AFTRA did great things. No one can deny the importance of these unions in protecting creators' rights. But it's still pains me a little to see so many good shows end so soon. It's upsetting to lose things that you cherish, but obviously, the strike was necessary. The cost of the strike is always high, and it's not just the money; it's the time and effort that goes into making these shows. I'm glad Slow Horses isn't affected by the strike, though. They've done a marvelous job in keeping production going.

Barbie 2: A Plot Twist

Last night, I watched an interview where Ken got a nomination for an Oscar part of the production for Barbie. But what caught my attention was that Maro did not get a nomination despite being the creator and star of the film. It's ironic that the story of the movie is about Barbie getting nominated for an Oscar, but Ken gets one instead. I wouldn't say it's ironic, though; maybe it's just a clever plot twist.

The Future of Children's Programming

I saw this coming when I heard that Apple TV Plus canceled several children's shows. Children's programming took a hit, and we'll have to wait and see what happens next. The number eight feels like it's one show got canned, but we won't ever get to know what happened because they weren't redeployed. It's curious times at Apple TV plus, indeed.

The Rise of Apple TV Plus: A Breakout Hit

I remember 2019 when Apple TV Plus started and was nothing decent for ages. But then Ted Lasso broke, and suddenly, that's exactly what happened with Apple TV+. Even if I don't like it one-to-one, Ted Lasso became a breakout hit, and once it did, that's exactly what happened with Apple TV+. Every service needs one breakout hit to make them worth watching.

Apple Vision Pro: A Delayed Release

And finally, the last bombshell for you is that Apple Car has been delayed till 2028. What shall you do with all that money you were saving for Apple car? Buy a few things, I guess. I understand why they're trying to get the exact right Jade of blue and that is remarkably difficult people don't appreciate that at all. So, no criticizing them for their affection; it's just really hard to make something like this work.

Inside the Pocket: A Serious Take

Next week, we'll be very serious on the inside. We'll have a tie shirt, everything very serious the whole way through. But I think that's exactly what people want right now. They want to feel good about themselves and their shows, not just watch something light-hearted. It's time for Apple TV Plus to step up its game and deliver some great content.

The Up Inside: Looking Ahead

We'll be closer to Apple Vision Pro next week. I hope they can make it work, because if anyone can, Apple can. But until then, we're stuck in limbo, wondering what's going to happen with our favorite shows. Will Slow Horses continue? Will Foundation come back? Only time will tell.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enhello I'm William Gallagher and this is the Apple Insider podcast this episode is brought to you by notion more from them later now Apple has just announced its changes to the app store for users in the European Union and you can bet there's going to be a lot of discussion about that in the coming weeks for one thing the terms for developers who want to offer an alternative app store seem to be seem to be less Draconian than everyone thought Apple would do at first glance it even seems well worked out for users too we'll know more now that the beta of iOS 17.4 has been released to developers and includes all of the changes or at least does if you're a developer in the EU but for now joining me for what he expects is a discussion about 40 Years of the Mac what he imagines is about a Vision Pro and quite possibly hopes is about the iPad is Wes hyad Wes hello good morning William how you doing today uh well I was fine I was great actually and there's so much to be interested about until I heard you on iPad Pros podcast and there's a particular thing I just totally selfishly I want your advice on something you mentioned in that about how you use your iPads but also in the week of the 40th anniversary of the Mac you at least alluded to the idea that the Mac was reminiscent of Windows 2000 and I would like you to prostrate yourself explain beg forgiveness how do you explain that well it's it's all the same thing uh it's just it's just all the same thing you've got a a mouse and a a a desktop and a little start bar uh you click on an application it opens a window it it the the paradigm's been around for 100 years uh give or take uh 40 maybe H and it's just I don't know it feels old it I I mean I've been doing the same thing with a computer since I was a child and we'll we'll get into that later but like yeah it something about it just feels dated nothing no no matter how well you polish it no matter what Mac OS looks like today how it's taken on iOS paradigms and it's still the same concept and that's good in a way because it stands the test of time they nailed it they got it on the first try they really did but also here we are 40 years later mouse and a gooey doing very different things very exciting very powerful things but with the same interaction Paradigm and that's that I guess maybe makes it feel old I haven't heard the is it a word gooey in so long I remember when that was the big thing and now what else would you have ex I mean you can go to terminal and do command line stuff there but guey is the normal thing instead of uh new feature graphical user interface or whatever it was uh but also excuse me wash your mouth out sir there was never a start button on the Mac that was a Windows thing no not the start B button but the the task like the bar right it's you have a you have well you you yes you have the menu bar and you have the dock but and windows didn't do similarly at least till recently and people try to mimic that with different dock launchers on Windows of course the paradigms are very slightly altered you click a start bar to get to basically an interactive dock where there's a bunch of items or maybe even the uh app launcher you could call the start bar but regardless it's it's kind of the same concept just shown in different wasn't it um the Mac versus P PC ads that was there was this joke once of how totally different Windows was cuz there's Spotlight the search in uh would have been top right and windows has a thing a search thing top left couldn't be more different kind of thing so okay I see the point there's a a lot of similarity but we are here to celebrate I think I'm I I know I started in Max using Max before you did uh so I kind of been along for the ride for a shocking amount of time system six I came in and uh you came in what after they'd stopped numbering them in fact you when you had your brief um Hiatus your house in 2 years with the Mac what operating system was it on by then oh so we're talking about now uh Mac OS gez hiier Mojave whatever that those couple years were th those those like three years basically from 2019 to today all those names get mixed up to me I know we're on Sonoma now and previous generation was Ventura so I would have been on Ventura for half of that so what was before Ventura yes that one um so so that one in Ventura uh were the ones I operated on when I had when I was using a ma on the way to being halfway through maoma and I finally stopped having to say carinoma in my head to get the name right I'm used to it now and they're going to replace it with you know Mac OS something else in California in just a few months time well well before uh we move too far uh field from the iPad Pros mentioned yeah that that was a fun podcast and I talk a lot about that kind of stuff and and what made me enjoy using an iPad versus a Mac why I went back to Mac why I went back to iPad again a second time it's all it's all very good conversation if you haven't heard it yet uh definitely I thought it was particularly interesting cuz you mentioning it uh you make it sound like you've told told everybody your history before but it was all new to me all the ship stuff you did the Navy work and things like that and the you know the bad days the terrible days with Android you know where we're all young once and we move on out of these things there'll be definitely be a link to that uh interview before because it's very wide ranging and deeply interesting oh yeah I used to be I used to be quite the Google ftic I used to uh praise Android and Google and uh evangelize those systems and tell people about how to uh better use their Google search and stuff like that I I was quite the Android Fanboy did not like apple one bit for several years there um tell me was just um yeah it's it's quite funny let's just take a moment in this 50-minute hour to discuss the inner feelings of you and why you went through it you did did you have many chance a bad experience with a Mac early in your life well I wouldn't say a bad experience the only experience I ever had with a Mac uh and that's why I want to ask you as well so everyone's posting their first experiences on Macedon and uh possibly Twitter I haven't checked but uh they're talking about it because it's the 40th anniversary of the Mac so my first experience with a MAAC was in kindergarten 1996 uh that's that's our pre-ir like grade here in the United States William it's basically you're five years old it's your first day of school um and yeah they had a they had Max at my elementary school I'm assuming they were older they they weren't the brand new um I'm assuming performers of the time but they were performers they had a floppy drive that's all I can tell you I don't I don't have enough information I do know they were the Apple branded ones they didn't lack the Apple logo cuz they weren't doing they weren't part of that mess where they were trying to debrand them um so I remember the logo on the front but I do remember loading games onto it to play like math and uh alphabet games onto these performers and by first grade I come back and uh they were all windows uh 97 uh units so very very abrupt change uh and I was Windows uh through my education uh ever since never saw Mac again in the wild just because in our area it would be quite a lot of money to spend on a computer iPods of course were very abundant but you just never saw a Mac so I didn't I I always knew they kind of existed as the other computer I just never considered them um in my life at all until I was able to buy a computer and after I got over my little Android Windows phase of uh learning and uh exploring those things and then when I moved to Mac in 2014 moved to Apple really um Mac was on my mind and the first thing I decided to buy was a I might be getting this wrong I'm I I tried to search back I didn't take photos as often as I used to and I definitely didn't take photos of the things I owned so I could not find any instance where I owned a Mac before this so I'm assuming my first Mac was a 2015 MacBook Pro that I purchased while I was in um Bahrain on deployment in uh 204 20 late 2013 early 2014 so yeah that that would have that would have been it had the wrong uh key layout and everything you buy it while on deployment in Bahrain I and I just bought one from the local shop I feel there's a difference of experience there a little bit but also performer that's another word I haven't heard so long I worked on a magazine once in the UK where production desk used uh they had a a Mac 2f effects that they loved it was the wicked fast computer it was known and also there were a couple of quadras Centrist all these Dreadful names as Apple tried to make you well instead of a Mac for the rest of us a different Mac for every single person for it they were not the good days there but I bought a Macintosh LC well I mean nice I windows at the time was what Pentium and Centurion I mean they didn't have great names either i' forgotten those power PC was actually quite a good name in a way well power book good I miss the power book days Janette Winston has a book out called the power book she spells it with I think separately two words and I read it and it's a description the opening chapter is about computers and screens and it's clearly a Windows thing and I can't read it cuz you've told me it's a power book and I know it isn't you know so she wrote oranges are not the only fruit which is just an incredible piece of work but I can't read that one so William your your first Mac was the uh your first experience with the Mac was when you purchased or did you experience that I worked writing computer manuals for a company that for a little while had uh a Mac SE for me and then after a bit they updated it in front of me to a Mac se30 some guy comes in I think it was one nice uh one man and a screwdriver that's the image I've got uh basically took off the front potted around in the middle put the front back on with a new name on it and then left and it was suddenly faster and I thought fast enough to install the then new system 7 which had uh the multifinder I think it was called let you run multiple apps at the same time and that was true but I didn't have enough RAM in the machine so it was forever falling over and I was getting dirty looks from my editor at the time mind you that editor later said that he wished he'd bought PCS and I asked him and he said said well cuz I've used Max now I want try something else that felt less a thorough examination of the job than maybe it needed to be right anyway listen we're talking a lot about uh Max and the 40th anniversary I you pointed out to me that Apple isn't pointing out quite as much as we are is Apple not that first about the 40th I don't know it's uh it's middle-aged now maybe they're a little embarrassed by their age and uh they just want to they they don't want to discuss birthdays anymore uh William it's it's once you reach a certain age in life you just stop bringing it up you know um yes when I get to 21 I imagine I'll be the same yeah yeah all right no it's just uh it so as I noted um the 30th Anniversary Apple did this whole thing it was a huge kind of video presentation of all these Mac users I believe they even went so far to say like we filmed it all on iPhone on the same day around the world simultaneously and stitched it together in this love letter to the mac and it was this whole thing and people loved it and it was this great just celebration of this computer that created Apple and the 40th comes by and a couple of days ago I think there was an interview with some Executives talking about yeah the Mac that was cool and that's pretty much all we got a Steve Jobs archive update they added a um an email archive that belongs to MailChimp that isn't even a URL for Steve Jobs archive but it's a MailChimp URL that lets you read this ancient email with some photographs of the Mac team which is which yeah which was cool I I think you actually wrote that story okay let's hopefully I did write the Steve Jobs archive emailed out uh uses a one report of from 1984 of what Rolling Stone photographer for his name I'm sorry uh what it was like when he arrived just before the launch of the mac and it's it's a really nice story but I didn't real there was more I want more it no it's a it's a great story but I believe the origination of that um of that story is actually a MailChimp link of some archived email which is what's really funny um I I just I just find that kind of humorous it it that they didn't even like for it for the side or whatever maybe I'm wrong and it was a different piece of uh information inside of the Steve Jobs archive but um I say I only ever visit their Steve Jobs archive when they announce something like a book or something and they email and they get it I never think to check it out and when I did go to look I just get a link for the you know the overall site for it they're doing all sorts of things now I mean the Publications yes but also they're running uh programs to kind of inspire uh younger people to follow in jobs foot I mean not directly in his footsteps but to kind of have that uh impetus that entrepreneurship for it so they're doing Oodles of things that's a good word oodles they're doing oodles do you like Oodles I like Oodles this is going crazy oodles it means Lots yeah okay um I feel let's draw a line under oodles then uh given that this is the 40th year of the Mac I'm interested in the fact that it's also the first year of the Vision Pro um can you see a direct line between the two the mac and Vision Pro is the Vision Pro really just a Mac on your Gob on your face rather well if if anything it's an iPad on your face um I don't really make too much connection it's kind of funny I the Mac um builds right so it's still that Workhorse it's still that development tool um Vision Pro if anything is an accessory to the Mac uh if you want to compare it to the MAC at all um it's definitely its own Computing platform and its own way like the iPad but it also can accessorize the Mac like the iPad can via its own um screen sharing technology so it's it's multifaceted in a lot of ways but I think um as an iPad User I see a lot of value in Vision Pro because of all of my workflows being able to be ported to it directly but as a Mac User I can also see it being very powerful because not only do you get all of the iPad interface and apps and interactions and the newness of technology that I enjoy but you can bring your Mac uh apps in as a window and interact with it as well and uh you can even hook up keyboards and trackpads to The Vision Pro to interact with everything natively uh through um iPad and Mac's uh trackpad system and keyboard system and feel perfectly at home in The Vision Pro and I I think that part of that is because the Mac exists and you know and without the Mac there wouldn't be a Vision Pro there wouldn't even be an iPhone so you know I think they all borrow you the thing a few months ago where somebody managed to get Windows XP running on the Vision Pro simulator I don't really know why but it was impressive thing yeah I think it's just people well you're the guy who likes emulators and stuff don't you so maybe you would pursue that kind of line as well but not me I don't think curiosity I'm not going to run an operating system in the Vision Pro I don't think um I mean Windows XP can run in a browser so you can go to a website and and run with those I will not rush to go do that but it's interesting to know um I tell you something else I I think I have a I have a bookmark to Windows 98 saved just because please rush me a copy go play some have to go in the uh the Show links do you think now we brought it up I suppose it does doesn't it but no one has to click it I'll find it yeah you know it's just there you no it's there it's useful but go beat go go beat the high score in Space Invaders that's that's always fun the the pinball game that's built into Windows I no idea Space Invaders is built into windows I remember um a y the pinball game is just part of it yeah I don't know why they did that but it's just there it boots in and there's this back in the day the Mac had that what do you call that puzzle the sliding Block Puzzle that's all that came with a Mac back in the Youth of its time but okay uh I was amused by you going straight to games at your kindergarten I felt like that's is that where it began for you this mad C Crazy Games Obsession you have no uh there was already a Super Nintendo and a Sega Genesis in my home by the time I attended kindergarten I tell you something I did I thought was stupid actually one week ago we were talking about Vision Pro and the pre-orders and I I knew full well that uh we were recording just before pre-orders opened on the Friday and they would the things would actually be delivered or be in people's hands in stores on February the 2nd but in my mind you were already packing for your Nashville trip as we talked but um we're not are we and as we talked I don't know whether you actually successfully placed an order did you get were you beaten by all of these Bots that apparently ordered loads of them so yeah I actually did succeed uh in pre-ordering so I went ahead and ordered the Vision Pro with one tbte of storage cuz I'm a Madman um the well so you have to rely on the rumors and I don't think enough people are paying attention to it I know the rumors can be wrong we could get a Vision Pro in 6 months and they can call it the New Vision Pro I don't know we'll find out but what it looks like from the supply chain is they can't make enough of these things already Sony's angry at Apple soaking up their entire distribution platform for these things um there's so there's all this drama there's all this going on and the what it looks like is the Apple Vision the cheaper version of this headset won't even be announced mentioned until 2025 sometime and I'm not interested in that one it's going to be cheaper and it'll have similar features but it'll be by all accounts a lesser version of this one and if it can do anything The Vision Pro can't that'll be interesting of Apple to do I don't know that they'll do that but they could pull an iPad and be like oh by the way in the meantime since we've introduced The Vision Pro we introduced apple pencil hover and here you I don't know but anyway uh so I don't really have much interest in buying that one if I already have the Vision Pro I don't need to downgrade to the Apple Vision the next Vision Pro isn't expected until 2027 3 years from now maybe 26 but the rumors are suggesting 27 so if I'm going to have this computer for the next three years I'm going to want as much storage as possible because we don't know what the Paradigm is going to look like we're not going to know what apps are going to be available how the how things are going to shift in the next 3 years Vision OS 4 right like what is going to change how are things going to happen so I wanted the most storage available so I went ahead and got one terabyte and uh pickup day in Nashville at the store my initial order was going to be pick up at 8 uh at 8:30 and for whatever reason I went to check out and it said no pick a different time and it made made me pick 9:00 so someone stole my slot apparently which is fine but that that's kind of funny so at least one other person that I know of bought an apple Vision Pro in Nashville 10 minutes early you'll see them coming out you'll know who they were yeah this this stuff is personal no but that that's uh that so that that pre-order process went fairly smoothly uh quickly and no real headache and my weird military uh eye prescription got accepted and ordered my Ze uh inserts as well which may not be here for me to go to Nashville with I might have to set up the Apple Vision Pro with my natural eyesight which will be fun which I can see um without glasses uh unlike other people my glasses are mostly decoration uh I I'm I'm nearsighted and I can't like read far away but I can see so I'm not even actually legally required to drive with glasses though it's recommended um but like yeah I I'll be able to operate Vision Pro fine without them but they'll be they'll be needed so hopefully those arrive before I go to Nashville otherwise it'll be a little blurry for me my mind I I realized what you're saying about the storage the one territ thing and that increases the longevity of it the only bad problems I've had ever with Mac gear has been when the storage has been inadequate even with you know quite low Ram I've been all right since the se30 days storage yes but when you're saying that about an apple Vision I was trying to think what could apple drop um from the only thing I can think of is I it I could see them shedding the eyesight function for a cheaper thing oh well so a cheaper Apple Vision Pro or apple Vision I suppose uh I'm sure they'll call it some it needs a moniker on the end there it doesn't make sense to just call it Vision Apple Vision SE Marvel Superhero yes see I should be working for Apple sort no se Works um what's light I don't know we'll we'll see SE actually fits in with apple it does the phone but C to me um the Apple watch didn't have any kind of um version descriptor until the Apple Watch series 1 came out and everybody started talking about series zero so could be anything kind of but when the Apple watch originally launched it was uh the the nomenclature was there but in a different way uh if you bought the Apple watch sport you got the cheap model got the Apple watch um gosh what was oh it just the Apple watch uh that that was your stainless steel model and then the addition was your gold model right so they still had naming separators it wasn't until later that they introduced the SE and the series versions and stuff but no uh I could definitely see technology-wise um if the Apple Vision releases it'll still be the R1 and M2 they can't really remove that but it might be a lower core M2 so we might see eight cores instead 10 um the display as you say I don't know that they would get rid of eyesight entirely but it could be a different type of display um or yes it could just be a flat plastic front uh a like a a meta Quest kind of thing but see the problem with that is and a lot of people are going for eyesight but the front glass is what allows the cameras because the cameras are using the front glass as a lens to to view the world so getting rid of that because people are all worried about the weight and we'll get into the weight in a minute it's actually not an issue now that we know the weight it's such a non-issue it's hilarious but um getting away from weight the I don't think the front glass is going to change because that is critical to the cameras maybe they Chang the camera system but again then it would be a completely different device so to make this thing cheaper let's be real people are out there expecting Apple to release Apple Vision SE and it cost $22,000 I don't think so it'll be $27.99 it's still going to be an expensive product it'll just be slightly more affordable well by magnitude I mean $1,000 is a big difference but we we'll we'll see uh but there are things it can do and of course the technology matures maybe Apple releases almost the same headset and just calls it a different name because now it's a little cheaper and it comes in more colorful bands or something I don't know but um that'll be an interesting story if it happens at all because some rumors are suggesting Apple's going to skip releasing a separate entity alog together this first generation and wait until Apple Vision Pro 2 is announced to announce a second generation cheaper model which would then make sense for it to basically be the original Apple Vision Pro maybe lesser cores a little cheaper and that and that would be 2027 still so if you're holding out you'll be waiting a few years I am wondering when it's going to come to the UK but I'm trying to think it's just this year you're absolutely sure about that I can rely on you app Apple Apple has made it clear that um external uh to the United States uh shipments will begin in 2024 and UK's usually top of that list so I would assume Canada UK you know that kind of stuff we'll be hearing about this summer like if you really want one William you you you'll be able to order one in July but doesn't come that's the thing it's not the money no no no no not the money at all no it's the bless and the lack of I feel theyve personally let me down there but maybe in July they'll come out with an apple card in the UK as well and we can do some um what do you call it monthly installments from now until uh 2027 and the next one comes out that this it all fits God they planned everything yeah I realized we we left the 40 Years of Mac yeah but is of Mac will never leave us it's a precious special thing and you rais a thing I've got to ask you about because I think I might disagree with you the weight of the headset I know you're right that we know the figure uh but I don't remember what it is for it just uh lighter than expected is that fair to say Okay so this it's been a whole thing all not all of them let's be clear a a handful of the journalists and devel Vel opers that have gotten their hands on Apple Vision Pro so far have commented on the weight and as far as I know and as far as I can tell I don't think any of them ever used that's I was wondering headset before uh because and maybe they have and I'm sure it is heavy I'm sure it is front heavy um these weights are relative to the headset maybe the headband uh and some of these is distributes it differently sure I'll I'll take any of that but the absolute weight um yeah so they don't include the battery weight because the battery is attached to a cable but the Apple Vision Pro uh just the entire headset is 650 g at most because the different um lenses yes light seals and they can but so with everything attached the heaviest components you can attach 650 g or 1.4 lb for uh people who care about pounds so um for reference that's actually very middling if you put it on a chart of every headset like VR headset that's out there on the market that's existed um from like HTC VI I think is like the heaviest and it's even it's much heavier than Apple Vision at like 1.8 LBS or some something I these aren't exact numbers anymore so take me for like go look at it they are heavier but it's just I don't have the exact weights um but Apple Vision Pro is at .4 but what I do know because I have some reference is psvr2 without the cable weight because Sony excludes that but the cable is permanently attached and required for use um Thea the psvr2 is like 136b um 620 some G somewhere in there a just fractionally less but if you include the weight of that cable um the gravity pulling down on it it's and it pulls down on the front of your face by the way cuz the cable attaches to the side of your head yeah it's automatically within range of Apple Vision Pro if not right at it um so if you've used a psvr2 comfortably Apple Vision Pro is not going to be a problem and all of the weight of psvr2 sits on your forehead and if everyone's like well why why is it so heavy it's plastic right psvr2 has uh multiple vibrational Motors so these metal um Motors that vibrate to give you haptic feedback when you're playing video games uh not many other headsets do that and that's why psvr2 weighs so much uh in in addition to its uh multiple onboard sensors and its own glasses and and that that are weighty on their own so there you have it and the um battery by the way weighs less than a pound at 12 o if anyone's wondering like 12.6 o as you was saying that I mean he said this about the the other headset it was occurring to me that the battery even if not attached it must be pulling on somewhere I don't know where the battery attaches on the Vision Pro actually so the funny thing about the battery is I mean okay yes if you let the battery dangle to the floor and pull your head down then the weight would be acting on your head uh that's not how this is going to work the cable will be adding some weight uh to the headset surely but also maybe not so much as say psvr cuz psvr kind of drapes off into the abyss and then has to connect to the PlayStation um the way the Apple Vision cable is going to work is you you can either run it down your back or run it down your shirt or your hoodie whatever uh like for me if if I'm going to be using it for a long period of time I might run it down my shirt you know like a classic classic teen wearing headphones uh back in the day kids uh they headphones had cables and you'd run them through your shirt to hide the anyway um that's what you might do okay um I did say that I thought I might disagree with you and I'm not sure now the reason that was on my mind is that as we record this today just a little while ago um I wrote a story about a newly revealed uh patent application that Apple has put in and it's all about using Apple Vision Pro to monitor uh The Strain on neck muscles and it's really clever because it has no way to actually measure a strain on the neck muscles because you know it's all up around your eyes nothing reaches down there and yet through posture and all sorts of really clever things it's able to determine that you know you're in trouble here it will adjust so what you're looking at to make it slightly more comfortable in some way or it will start glowing saying listen you know time for a cup of tea I don't know that that's the exact error message but yeah posture I I think posture monitoring would be interesting I think that would be a good implementation if Apple can do it I mean patents are always fun uh but I think posture in general is going to be very important with this you can't be slouching with your head down um I think the most comfortable position is going to be lean back looking up honestly um it that'll be great if you're a touch typist with a keyboard you can maybe uh Lounge back a little bit and look up at your windows uh I already know that I'm likely going to just empty my desk and just use my desktop with a keyboard and trackpad and that'll probably be all that's on it other than maybe my open MacBook or something uh so I'm already looking at just dismantling my office this is going to be a lot of fun but um yeah I don't know the it's it's so hard to describe once I actually have this thing and try it I'm going to be demoing I'm going to be wearing it uh like I'm going to be doing the the review for Apple Insider you're going to be hearing everything you could ever possibly want to know about Apple Vision Pro for me don't worry but um yeah as far as how long you can wear it before it becomes uncomfortable I think that depends on the band you're using uh as people have said that strap that goes behind your head it's putting the weight on uh the bridge of your forehead and the top of your nose and I I would assume that would become uncomfortable after a couple of hours so that might be at most you're you know if you just want to quickly pop it on and do maybe do some work take some breaks in between you could probably make it last all day but if you're really planning on using it for an 8 hour work shift you're probably going to use the two band system get it adjusted to your head size and put all of the weight on that top strap which your head's pretty good at supporting weight it would pretty much ignore uh you know what 1.4 lbs at that point so you you would barely notice it was there it won't look as nice but who's looking at you at that point um so yeah and and third party bands should come in we'll see some uh people try different cushioning different things um and I guess we never got to it you want wondered how does the battery work it connects over a magnetic connector that looks kind of like an Apple Watch charger it sticks to the side of the headband uh on I think the left side and drapes over your back basically and goes into the and this is interesting uh the top of the battery and the uh right next to that connector is a USBC Port so the cable going in and the USBC Port going out are both in the top of the battery so if you put it in your back back pocket both cables are facing the same way which is great listen I hadn't thought about this until you said that about clearing your desk for you sound um quite convinced already that this is going to be your major working tool that it's not going to be put it on for half an hour WR the review and forget about it do you feel that Vision Pro is a success for you already I think so in a way um I mean it's it's funny um it's an iPad for all intents and purposes this thing is is running um iPad software and I'm already familiar with uh iPads um yes there's a few major apps missing but I already don't really use any of those apps I'm not really I don't care for Netflix content I have like three shows a year I watch on there um that I really need to start unsubscribing between but uh I need to get people off my logins to do that but um Spotify whatever YouTube um I don't really do YouTube but there's um actually great options for that uh and again these are all in the browser anyway but uh play by I believe Marcos Tanaka is an excellent app that if anyone hasn't tried it it's a good way to follow channels you subscribe to and view their videos within this native uh app player which is also native division pro at launch we'll be trying that out um I just I can see my workflows working in the space I can see pulling my MacBook uh Pro which is still at my desk pulling that screen into the space and using it for the things we've discussed before that I still use my Mac for like I can see this working now the question is longevity can I wear it for an 8 hour shift how long do I need to go before I take a break and I do take breaks you know I'll get up and stretch and walk so um letting my eyes rest once an hour you know for 5 10 minutes not going to be uh too much of a problem should I there will be stretches of time of course when we're super busy and I'll have a couple hours where it's on my face but at the end of the day if I really just need to take the thing off I still have everything else to work from I can still grab my iPad uh and replicate that system and just continue working Without Really any Interruption so I do think this is going to as long as the comfort factor and everything else works the way I expect it to i f intend on trying at the least to work from it for uh initially to see where it can go and if it can and if it works out I will continue working from it several months ago most people who have used Apple Vision Pro to date have done so under heightened circumstances Apple produced walkthroughs in person before they were even allowed to take it home and things but there is one exception which is Apple insiders uh Mike worly he managed to get to use one for some hours without Apple even being around and things and and I thought it was interesting that he came away with a more negative attitude to Vision pray than most other people at the time um he's not here to say his reasons why but uh I think his basic point was that he felt it just wasn't finished yet that it was good but not good enough yet does that sound plausible to you or I mean it was months ago things have moved on from my understanding what Mike interacted with wasn't complete and he says that what he's seen in press since is a much especially the release model is is a much more finalized version of that hardware and uh with eyesight working and everything like that um so not everything was there but also Mike a Mac User like uh like you and um from I I've been sing by this from the beginning I feel like mac users that view the Vision Pro see it as this kind of accessory this uh just just like the just like the iPad it's kind of can I really do what I need to do from this there's no command line here there's no you know I can't bring in my uh text expander or anything like that into this like clipboard Management's going to be a mess and it's all the same you know complaints from Mac users that they would have about an iPad it's this glorified tool that's basically an iPad that doesn't really work the way that they want it to and that all makes sense and I don't think there's any problem with that it's not going to be for everyone this is an incredibly Niche device even iPad users exist that are going to be like no thank you because I don't want to strap a thing to my face I'm fine with it because I've used VR before I don't find it particularly uncomfortable um so I'm willing to give this a try again maybe I'll put it on and I just get sick and can't use it I don't know we'll find out I me I want to we'll see I don't disagree with Mike Mike Mike's opinions that I've heard from him and he actually has a story we're going to have in the show notes about uh me me and Mike kind of Bounce this idea of because we have such different opinions let's write each other's opinions down and as of you're listening today um Mike you know has a story that came out I believe on Wednesday that discusses why Apple Vision Pro is going to be an uphill climb why it's got a few battles on its hands it's going to be um a difficult thing for Apple to prove needs to exist and uh mine's come come out today as it as we release um so you can go read it right now and I'll poke William to make sure he gets in the show notes uh what's it Friday morning but um but um I I wrote I wrote a similar story uh basically opposing that saying okay here's why Apple Vision Pro wins and I can explain a little bit of that now if you I mean I feel like I'm pressing you on Apple Vision Pro a lot but you are the guy who just spent a lot of money buying one and I'm not so uh I think you're more invested in this literally so yeah give me give me the reasons convince me all right so so just to get get a little bit into what Mike said first he he he brings up the pricing and he talks a little bit about um the consumer market and just how do we Define this thing as successful and how how are we going to discuss this thing going forward what's actually the play here and is is it actually a glorified Dev tool as people have suggested and and just kind of these kinds of conversations and he lays out a lot of good points I actually don't really disagree with any of his points it's true this is a very Niche product it's very expensive it's not going to sell in massive numbers um so how will this be defined as as a success or failure and we're never going to really know because Apple's not going to tell us and what we're going to hear from Apple is the good stories and I actually compare this to homepod in my piece uh similarly because Apple still sells homepod people use it can we actually say homepod was a success or not we don't know uh I a lot would say that it was a failure and uh and I think a lot of people are going to say apple Vision Pro at least in its first iteration is probably going to be some kind of failure but what does that even mean when we're like when we look back at iPhone how many units it sold compared to iPhone 4 and 5 was the original iPhone a failure I don't think so it was a stepping stone and that's kind of the point point of view that I come from so go go read Mike's uh first because that's the order they came out in I think they make more sense that way read Mike's story and then read read my story so my story is a little bit more upbeat of course I have a more positive uh view on the matter let me pull up my draft so I can see a little bit of what I'm remember what I wrote down um so basically um my concept is let's explain the different ways Apple Vision Pro wins so first does it need a killer app why does this thing exist why is it out today why didn't Apple just wait to release uh some Rayban sunglasses that does AR popups in 2028 right like why is this here now and the resounding answer that I came to and I think the biggest reason why Apple Vision Pro a needs to exist and why it already wins it doesn't even need we don't even need to have just gotten through pre-order weekend to know why Apple Vision Pro wins and that's because it needed to get released to the wider audience we needed Vision OS in developer hands hardware needed to be in real people's hands because they had reached the limits of their production of their development internally and unless they had released the thing of the world who knows what we'd have gotten in two more years we'd have maybe gotten some Google Glasses uh prideful nonsense that actually never work in the real world world because only people in uh a locked lab and copertino have ever used it right so this is the product that we get because this is us at this point helping Apple develop this program and that's great we've seen this work before that is not a bad thing people treat it as a bad thing beta test in public or whatever uh Google does it with literally everything they've ever released um Apple doesn't tend to do it as much but they have successfully Apple watch accidentally was that they didn't know that they were going to be beta testing Apple watch in public but when they released that first version and saw what people actually used it for watch OS 2 was such a dramatic shift from watch os1 it tells us everything we need to know about that about their product development timeline and realizing oh having this thing in the real world actually taught us something and I think they're being more deliberate with Vis Vision Pro it's out in the world people are going to have their hands on it next week developers have been working the simulator already we're seeing such different things than what Apple expected and once the hardware is in people's hands it's going to shift even more so that by this fall but this winter I think Apple's going to have an actual story for Vision Pro and why consumers need to buy it so it's a success in its own right that it needed to exist so Vision OS could run basically right um Vision o Vision Pro is going to be the Paradigm for the next 3 years maybe it's launching as a developer tool I wouldn't use the word glorified cuz that's you know treating as a pejorative I think it actually I think it works it's not I wouldn't call it a pure Dev tool though it's obviously an entertainment device it's obviously consumer device but it is launching mostly being purchased by devs and um higher and consu consumers but as we go along yes the price isn't going to change it's not going to decrease but in 2025 Apple's going to have a better story for this thing people are going to probably have hopefully have a little more money if the market recovers a little but uh they're going to be still still selling these things they're going to sell them as as quickly as they can make them because it's an Apple product first and foremost but it's a goodlooking one that is entering the market with some really radical Hardware it and this is my second Point look at every so so before I get to my second Point what do you think of my first I really hope you like it when you get it because if it's disappointing you're going to be crushed aren you if you're feeling sick using it and you don't like it that's awful that's what I was thinking there that this episode is brought to you by notion notion combines your notes stocks and projects into one space that's simple and beautifully designed it's this idea of one space that's important notion is so expensive it's so capable that you could do everything in it but that means you also need it to be simple so that you can have one tool and one 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thanks to notion for its support of the Apple Insider podcast your second Point yes so yeah my second Point um this is an a win for Innovation uh look back as far as you can and you can maybe sure let's let's go all the way back to uh what's that um Steven Spielberg uh Ready Player one that yes uh right or we can even go back to uh my first back to your first we can go back my first interaction with what you can consider uh VR which really wasn't uh virtue a boy which seared your eyes out and gave you cancer in the 1980s um so the the virtu boy right but but looking even from the virtu boy to the Oculus to The Meta Quest 3 and the evolution and the and the other you know HTC VI what is the similarity it's a big set of goggles and a couple of giant controllers and it has been the same Paradigm of interaction for years cuz you need something for your eyes you need something for your hands apple didn't do that and uh in a way and that required a lot of need to leave the trodden Road right and Apple's good at doing that they left and they found not only did they do eyesight to make things less isolating yes it's weird we'll see how it actually feels uh for other people to look at you and see what they think about that but um I think them trying to treat the isolation dilemma of VR is very important no one else is bothered right um hand tracking other things do this yes don't write me they do it badly let's let's be clear um this is onetoone hand tracking at first I was actually had kind of a crisis the other night I was like wait a minute can can you actually grab objects and hold them in your hand uh or is this all look and pinch gestures and I kind of was like wait a minute no you can only pinch right no actually I finally found a demo of the DJ experience where people hitting buttons in in the in the in the virtual view on the digital turntable scratching the record so you will be able to interact with objects I was a little worried for a second so they their their tracking is good enough that they're they know your hand are doing things it's not just a look and click phenomenon so you're it's not a glorified Mouse Paradigm which is great um so they innovated in that sector which really needed it uh pass through technology has been garbage again don't write me I know the the other headsets have it you can see a black and white blurry space set something out of Twilight Zone in some of these headsets it's not great some of them have better pass through sure but still not on this level this is a whole different thing it's still going to be headset you're still going to see pixels it's not going to be your living room I understand it's still better so Apple had to come in and innovate in these spaces and generate this very expensive first headset I mean we're talking the most expensive thing you can buy now is like $1,500 and it still needs a computer attached to it of course so you could easily get to Vision Pro prices quickly if you bought like I think it's HTC 5 and a PC that you need to run it properly at high resolution yeah you could get to Vision Pro prices but Apple Next Level the whole thing's a computer and it doesn't have fans well it has a cooling mechanism I believe if I understand correctly there is a very quiet fan or some air mover in there of some kind to to dissipate heat because it's necessary to get it off of your face but we're not talking Intel cooling right and the batter is off of your head so the battery isn't heating up your forehead either so all these considerations needed to happen and removing the the battery from the headset no one else did that right the battery I believe in the uh Hollow lens is strapped to the back of your head so it's just interesting so that's my second point is Apple's Innovations in these field in this field is going to lead to a new paradigm shift so and apple not calling it VR on purpose calling it spatial Computing and pushing for this kind of computing means Samsung and Microsoft are going to follow in their footsteps because that's what they do and we're going to see spatial devices like apple Vision Pro from other companies and this is going to create a new Revolution in Computing so that's a win on its own for consumers and everyone you're very convincing about this and and I want this to all be true but I realized there's a small thing that I'm holding back on and I don't really know why um you keep uh making the analogy that the Vision Pro is an iPad and I I can't see that for some reason I don't think it's a Mac I don't think it's an iPad I think it's its own thing but since we are talking iPads it's definitely own thing I mean we've got some actual iPads coming haven't we yeah oh one I had one last point and this one's quick Sho before we get to iPads um so Vision Pro my final point this is all in the article and I break it down much more uh so I I'm not just reading the whole article out loud don't worry guys um but the the last point I had was there was a financial success here and people are going to roll their eyes what they only s 180,000 I did the math uh I put it in here for William to judge but if Apple sold a bare minimum 180,000 in opening weekend they made about a $680 million if they only sold the base units and we know there's higher storage tiers so if they only sold them at $34.99 no accessories they made $680 million what they made yeah okay meta oodles oodles uh meta Quest 2 it so I'm not talking three cuz that just came out medaquest one was an abject failure it only sold 2 million units The Meta Quest 2 sold approximately by estimates 18 million units across its entire lifespan I think of about five years um so uh and if we assume only they sold the $499 version which there was a399 version so I'm discounting that let's let's give them the weight here they only sold $500 models that means they made $7.2 billion so in Apple's opening weekend of they were able to make almost 10% of what meta Quest sold in five years just I understand it's very different it's 180,000 versus uh 18 million I I get the magnitude of numbers that we're dealing with here but is are we really going to sit here and say apple Vision Pro isn't going to be a financial success they're going to sell as many as they can make in the next year and uh we saw a report from I believe JP Morgan Chase one of one of those Banks suggesting Apple could hit 200 uh up to 600,000 units sold by the end of 2024 and uh that math I have not done but you can do it yourself and see $3,500 multiply that very significant income just from a quote unquote glorified dev kit well I'm thinking I listen to you on this and I think we can conclusively prove that Vision Pro does have at least one fan okay you see what I did there didn't you that well mine's supposed to be the positive one we can get mic on here and he can tell us about how much he dis isn't he getting one as well that would be oh that' be so interesting the two of you facing off you know through your Apple Vision GL we've got to do that we'll figure that out some but iPads I love iPads I Have No Reservations to about iPads I want more iPads and I'm going to get them and I understand you know exactly ly when and what yes yes oh no uh there's plenty of rumors and we have a little Roundup here um actually the the rumors have been pretty light uh it's mostly just been repeats it's going to be OLED and they're going to come out in 2024 uh but we have a story here I just wanted to include it in the show notes this wasn't going to be too much of a huge topic and we are running out of time but um I just want to point out OLED iPad Pros um and iPad Mini uh 7 is expected no OLED likely uh maybe uh that that's a that's kind of a 50/50 but definitely no promotion so if you want an iPad Mini with faster refresh rate is probably not going to happen but Apple did say they plan on mitigating that jelly scrolling everyone complains about so we'll see and of course an iPad 11 and then and the new iPad Airs which will be not OLED so they'll be um standard LED but the 11in and 12.9 in sizes and iPad Air uh n clure so that's sometime in 2024 I'm hoping maybe a little bit of wiggle room after Vision Pro if this all comes out in March I might hurt myself uh trying to bend over backwards to figure out finances for any of those things so we'll we'll see how it all goes um but um some point this year is the word and I mean obviously we win a whole year without updates so uh will they be all at once will they be staggered out 2023 was the Wilderness year for iPads yes that was my serious documentary voice there uh the very last thing I want to ask you about and I've been waiting for this for a week now um this is going back to iPad Pros you mentioned a particular thing that you do which I think is transformative and I don't fully understand how you do it it was to do with clipboard managers now you mentioned an app called paste which I have reviewed sorry I should say this I mean if you know what a clipple manager is it's obvious but nobody ever explains it so let me say uh you know when you copy something and you can paste it somewhere else yeah but if you copy something and then you copy something else the first thing you copy is gone unless you have a clipboard manager and it keeps everything so you can paste the last but one thing you paste the thing you pasted this morning all of that once you have them you can't let go over them I want to recommend the one in Alfred 5 but there are dozens hundreds possibly of these they're all great absolutely indispensable once you've used them once they're not on the iPad now you said you use an app called post which I have reviewed on the Mac and I didn't like it because uh I mean it does the job it's very good at it but it's a very visual thing it was showing me images of pages and I I just want the text please but you have got paste working all the time on an iPad which doesn't have a clipboard manager and I need to know how it works how do you actually do this uh so first you need two iPads so that knocks most everyone out of the room yeah um okay yeah uh so I if you've seen my desk before um and there's an image of it on the iPads Pros um art for the episode uh I have a my iPad Pro hooked up to my studio display floating next to it on this arm thing and my iPad Mini on a little holder uh to the bottom left and up until recently cuz uh as I've said i' I've moved to a different setup in recent uh weeks but until recently I've had my I ad mini as an always on kind of display which is fine that they they manage their displays now I haven't noticed any Burnin issues um but I leave it on during the shift while I'm working and it usually has slack on one side and paste on the other and the paste window on the iPad Mini is great because Universal clipboard if I copy something on my iPad it populates paste on the iPad Mini so I have a complete history of everything I copy um at the ready so if I'm like I just accidentally erased a URL I needed or I just erased an entire feature I wrote or something it's all there in the clipboard manager on uh the iPad menu so Universal clipboard comes to rescue there and it works 100% of the time uh as far as I've noticed Universal clipboard hasn't failed um what does like to mess up is moving that across devices sometimes but it tap on what I need on the iPad Mini uh hit command V on the iPad Pro and then there you go it's uh back on the iPad so um I've actually loaned an iPad to somebody I might give them a call later and take it back okay yeah well s since then I've I've I've uh brought the iPad Mini back in as more of a music display because uh as you know I have my Mac back at my desk as a um kind of what what's the word for Brant Brant I keep forgetting the word enough that's the phrase to describe your Mac oh that's it it's kind of kind of a uh oh I always forget the word a status board kind of I I leave it running for um universal control management and I have paste running there so the paste management uh the universal clipboard management has moved to the Mac but I'm not really using the Mac except to access desktop Chrome rarely when I need to for work yada y but that is all very moot because in about 10 days my entire desk is going to get rearranged again so 40 Years of the mac and you're using it for copy and paste and on that bomb shelf no I don't want to talk to you anymore thank you for that sorry I think uh if if we have maybe five more minutes I wanted to run through a couple things yes all right so so um shmon did you enjoy wonderful and it's been cancelled even though they've written the next series apparently I mean at least they've done 25 songs for it and we're not going to hear them ever so that that was a low moment it's miserable do do you believe all these Apple TV plus cancellations like we we've seen several in the last uh 3 or four months are they all related do you think to the riter strike renegotiating so much happened because of the strike uh First Look deals uh this wasn't an apple thing this was an industry thing after a certain amount of time all the first luck deals that streamers had with companies just stopped so they've had to be all renegotiated I think some of them just reup straight away but it's through everything I mean I know Silo was actually in production of its second series and I cannot find out for anybody whether it's resuming for it I I believe Silo is resuming I I do know uh from people discussing it Severance has resumed filming so Seance is coming back thank goodness cuz that was such a good show um yeah we'll we'll see I mean obviously the other ones uh for all man kind already pretty much confirmed um Foundation is coming back so we'll we'll see about the rest but uh some of these shows that have been canceled I was really excited for and yeah they're more the B tier Apple TV Plus shows but uh we saw several go one I thought was clever was Apple announced the fifth season order for slow horses but I already knew it had that because uh a year ago now they two at a time well they were at least prepared I knew last January I knew they'd already F we've had three aired now it was two then third has come out since I knew they'd already finished the fourth and that they were at least in expectation of a fifth so they were working on it and then they did the whole thing of arranging Gary oldman's schedule so that all his stuff the latest RW one is got filmed before the actor strike kicked in so they were ready and could keep going for it I mean a lot of the casts are British so they're not part of uh sag after but Gary Alman obviously is so there was a lot of logistics and jiggling and they've kept going so I think they did a marvelous job there and we won't even see uh a dist I mean that sounds very um uh critical of the strike the strike was essential and Writers Guild and sag aftera did great things no yeah it was very but there is a cost and it's I'm glad slow horses isn't affected yeah it's It's upsetting to lose things that you cherish but the obviously the strike was necessary but um it's still pains me a little to see so many good franch like so many good things end so soon but uh things that aren't ending is uh killers of flower moons run through award season we we see that it got uh 10 nominations um yeah so that's exciting still haven't watched it I don't know why just haven't had time but I'm very much excited to uh take look at that moreing for barie myself I adored that film and the script was amazing just joyful yeah last line I mean yeah isn't it the I'm not going to spell it oh of course isn't it the uh the what what what's the word I I wouldn't say ironic but isn't it Ken got the nomination and not Barbie or Maro I think not everybody realizes that Mar didn't just star in it she created the whole project so actually she officially she is nom for an Oscar part of the production for it but yes somebody was pointing out that's basically the plot of that the man gets a nomination it's yeah well they've given them the plot of Barbie 2 where Ken gets nominated for an Oscar um children's programming took a hit uh we I saw this coming I don't know if anyone else did their children's programming is very PBS Disney Jr 1998 and I really want them to grow up so maybe uh sadly that took firing a few people so U we saw a few people only only a hand funny about the number eight that feels to me like it's one show got canned I mean I don't know and we wouldn't ever get what it was but and you know they weren't redeployed so I don't know what was going on there but yes it's curious times at Apple TV plus but so interesting isn't it I remember 2019 it started and you wanted it to be good and was nothing decent for ages and then Ted lasso broke and suddenly that's I I've often said this every service needs one breakout hit and once it's got that Bang that's exactly what happened with Apple TV because of Ted lasso even if I don't like it one one last bombshell for you William and I'll let you go Apple car has been delayed till 2028 what shall you do with all that money you were saving for Apple car buy a few thing is I understand why uh they're trying to get the exact right Jade of blue and that is remarkably difficult people don't appreciate that at all so you know I I can't criticize them for affection really I can't this is now getting silly right uh next week we'll be very serious on the up inside the pocket we'll have we'll be in ties shirts everything very very serious the whole way through that doesn't sound likely does it but we'll be closer to Apple Vision Prohello I'm William Gallagher and this is the Apple Insider podcast this episode is brought to you by notion more from them later now Apple has just announced its changes to the app store for users in the European Union and you can bet there's going to be a lot of discussion about that in the coming weeks for one thing the terms for developers who want to offer an alternative app store seem to be seem to be less Draconian than everyone thought Apple would do at first glance it even seems well worked out for users too we'll know more now that the beta of iOS 17.4 has been released to developers and includes all of the changes or at least does if you're a developer in the EU but for now joining me for what he expects is a discussion about 40 Years of the Mac what he imagines is about a Vision Pro and quite possibly hopes is about the iPad is Wes hyad Wes hello good morning William how you doing today uh well I was fine I was great actually and there's so much to be interested about until I heard you on iPad Pros podcast and there's a particular thing I just totally selfishly I want your advice on something you mentioned in that about how you use your iPads but also in the week of the 40th anniversary of the Mac you at least alluded to the idea that the Mac was reminiscent of Windows 2000 and I would like you to prostrate yourself explain beg forgiveness how do you explain that well it's it's all the same thing uh it's just it's just all the same thing you've got a a mouse and a a a desktop and a little start bar uh you click on an application it opens a window it it the the paradigm's been around for 100 years uh give or take uh 40 maybe H and it's just I don't know it feels old it I I mean I've been doing the same thing with a computer since I was a child and we'll we'll get into that later but like yeah it something about it just feels dated nothing no no matter how well you polish it no matter what Mac OS looks like today how it's taken on iOS paradigms and it's still the same concept and that's good in a way because it stands the test of time they nailed it they got it on the first try they really did but also here we are 40 years later mouse and a gooey doing very different things very exciting very powerful things but with the same interaction Paradigm and that's that I guess maybe makes it feel old I haven't heard the is it a word gooey in so long I remember when that was the big thing and now what else would you have ex I mean you can go to terminal and do command line stuff there but guey is the normal thing instead of uh new feature graphical user interface or whatever it was uh but also excuse me wash your mouth out sir there was never a start button on the Mac that was a Windows thing no not the start B button but the the task like the bar right it's you have a you have well you you yes you have the menu bar and you have the dock but and windows didn't do similarly at least till recently and people try to mimic that with different dock launchers on Windows of course the paradigms are very slightly altered you click a start bar to get to basically an interactive dock where there's a bunch of items or maybe even the uh app launcher you could call the start bar but regardless it's it's kind of the same concept just shown in different wasn't it um the Mac versus P PC ads that was there was this joke once of how totally different Windows was cuz there's Spotlight the search in uh would have been top right and windows has a thing a search thing top left couldn't be more different kind of thing so okay I see the point there's a a lot of similarity but we are here to celebrate I think I'm I I know I started in Max using Max before you did uh so I kind of been along for the ride for a shocking amount of time system six I came in and uh you came in what after they'd stopped numbering them in fact you when you had your brief um Hiatus your house in 2 years with the Mac what operating system was it on by then oh so we're talking about now uh Mac OS gez hiier Mojave whatever that those couple years were th those those like three years basically from 2019 to today all those names get mixed up to me I know we're on Sonoma now and previous generation was Ventura so I would have been on Ventura for half of that so what was before Ventura yes that one um so so that one in Ventura uh were the ones I operated on when I had when I was using a ma on the way to being halfway through maoma and I finally stopped having to say carinoma in my head to get the name right I'm used to it now and they're going to replace it with you know Mac OS something else in California in just a few months time well well before uh we move too far uh field from the iPad Pros mentioned yeah that that was a fun podcast and I talk a lot about that kind of stuff and and what made me enjoy using an iPad versus a Mac why I went back to Mac why I went back to iPad again a second time it's all it's all very good conversation if you haven't heard it yet uh definitely I thought it was particularly interesting cuz you mentioning it uh you make it sound like you've told told everybody your history before but it was all new to me all the ship stuff you did the Navy work and things like that and the you know the bad days the terrible days with Android you know where we're all young once and we move on out of these things there'll be definitely be a link to that uh interview before because it's very wide ranging and deeply interesting oh yeah I used to be I used to be quite the Google ftic I used to uh praise Android and Google and uh evangelize those systems and tell people about how to uh better use their Google search and stuff like that I I was quite the Android Fanboy did not like apple one bit for several years there um tell me was just um yeah it's it's quite funny let's just take a moment in this 50-minute hour to discuss the inner feelings of you and why you went through it you did did you have many chance a bad experience with a Mac early in your life well I wouldn't say a bad experience the only experience I ever had with a Mac uh and that's why I want to ask you as well so everyone's posting their first experiences on Macedon and uh possibly Twitter I haven't checked but uh they're talking about it because it's the 40th anniversary of the Mac so my first experience with a MAAC was in kindergarten 1996 uh that's that's our pre-ir like grade here in the United States William it's basically you're five years old it's your first day of school um and yeah they had a they had Max at my elementary school I'm assuming they were older they they weren't the brand new um I'm assuming performers of the time but they were performers they had a floppy drive that's all I can tell you I don't I don't have enough information I do know they were the Apple branded ones they didn't lack the Apple logo cuz they weren't doing they weren't part of that mess where they were trying to debrand them um so I remember the logo on the front but I do remember loading games onto it to play like math and uh alphabet games onto these performers and by first grade I come back and uh they were all windows uh 97 uh units so very very abrupt change uh and I was Windows uh through my education uh ever since never saw Mac again in the wild just because in our area it would be quite a lot of money to spend on a computer iPods of course were very abundant but you just never saw a Mac so I didn't I I always knew they kind of existed as the other computer I just never considered them um in my life at all until I was able to buy a computer and after I got over my little Android Windows phase of uh learning and uh exploring those things and then when I moved to Mac in 2014 moved to Apple really um Mac was on my mind and the first thing I decided to buy was a I might be getting this wrong I'm I I tried to search back I didn't take photos as often as I used to and I definitely didn't take photos of the things I owned so I could not find any instance where I owned a Mac before this so I'm assuming my first Mac was a 2015 MacBook Pro that I purchased while I was in um Bahrain on deployment in uh 204 20 late 2013 early 2014 so yeah that that would have that would have been it had the wrong uh key layout and everything you buy it while on deployment in Bahrain I and I just bought one from the local shop I feel there's a difference of experience there a little bit but also performer that's another word I haven't heard so long I worked on a magazine once in the UK where production desk used uh they had a a Mac 2f effects that they loved it was the wicked fast computer it was known and also there were a couple of quadras Centrist all these Dreadful names as Apple tried to make you well instead of a Mac for the rest of us a different Mac for every single person for it they were not the good days there but I bought a Macintosh LC well I mean nice I windows at the time was what Pentium and Centurion I mean they didn't have great names either i' forgotten those power PC was actually quite a good name in a way well power book good I miss the power book days Janette Winston has a book out called the power book she spells it with I think separately two words and I read it and it's a description the opening chapter is about computers and screens and it's clearly a Windows thing and I can't read it cuz you've told me it's a power book and I know it isn't you know so she wrote oranges are not the only fruit which is just an incredible piece of work but I can't read that one so William your your first Mac was the uh your first experience with the Mac was when you purchased or did you experience that I worked writing computer manuals for a company that for a little while had uh a Mac SE for me and then after a bit they updated it in front of me to a Mac se30 some guy comes in I think it was one nice uh one man and a screwdriver that's the image I've got uh basically took off the front potted around in the middle put the front back on with a new name on it and then left and it was suddenly faster and I thought fast enough to install the then new system 7 which had uh the multifinder I think it was called let you run multiple apps at the same time and that was true but I didn't have enough RAM in the machine so it was forever falling over and I was getting dirty looks from my editor at the time mind you that editor later said that he wished he'd bought PCS and I asked him and he said said well cuz I've used Max now I want try something else that felt less a thorough examination of the job than maybe it needed to be right anyway listen we're talking a lot about uh Max and the 40th anniversary I you pointed out to me that Apple isn't pointing out quite as much as we are is Apple not that first about the 40th I don't know it's uh it's middle-aged now maybe they're a little embarrassed by their age and uh they just want to they they don't want to discuss birthdays anymore uh William it's it's once you reach a certain age in life you just stop bringing it up you know um yes when I get to 21 I imagine I'll be the same yeah yeah all right no it's just uh it so as I noted um the 30th Anniversary Apple did this whole thing it was a huge kind of video presentation of all these Mac users I believe they even went so far to say like we filmed it all on iPhone on the same day around the world simultaneously and stitched it together in this love letter to the mac and it was this whole thing and people loved it and it was this great just celebration of this computer that created Apple and the 40th comes by and a couple of days ago I think there was an interview with some Executives talking about yeah the Mac that was cool and that's pretty much all we got a Steve Jobs archive update they added a um an email archive that belongs to MailChimp that isn't even a URL for Steve Jobs archive but it's a MailChimp URL that lets you read this ancient email with some photographs of the Mac team which is which yeah which was cool I I think you actually wrote that story okay let's hopefully I did write the Steve Jobs archive emailed out uh uses a one report of from 1984 of what Rolling Stone photographer for his name I'm sorry uh what it was like when he arrived just before the launch of the mac and it's it's a really nice story but I didn't real there was more I want more it no it's a it's a great story but I believe the origination of that um of that story is actually a MailChimp link of some archived email which is what's really funny um I I just I just find that kind of humorous it it that they didn't even like for it for the side or whatever maybe I'm wrong and it was a different piece of uh information inside of the Steve Jobs archive but um I say I only ever visit their Steve Jobs archive when they announce something like a book or something and they email and they get it I never think to check it out and when I did go to look I just get a link for the you know the overall site for it they're doing all sorts of things now I mean the Publications yes but also they're running uh programs to kind of inspire uh younger people to follow in jobs foot I mean not directly in his footsteps but to kind of have that uh impetus that entrepreneurship for it so they're doing Oodles of things that's a good word oodles they're doing oodles do you like Oodles I like Oodles this is going crazy oodles it means Lots yeah okay um I feel let's draw a line under oodles then uh given that this is the 40th year of the Mac I'm interested in the fact that it's also the first year of the Vision Pro um can you see a direct line between the two the mac and Vision Pro is the Vision Pro really just a Mac on your Gob on your face rather well if if anything it's an iPad on your face um I don't really make too much connection it's kind of funny I the Mac um builds right so it's still that Workhorse it's still that development tool um Vision Pro if anything is an accessory to the Mac uh if you want to compare it to the MAC at all um it's definitely its own Computing platform and its own way like the iPad but it also can accessorize the Mac like the iPad can via its own um screen sharing technology so it's it's multifaceted in a lot of ways but I think um as an iPad User I see a lot of value in Vision Pro because of all of my workflows being able to be ported to it directly but as a Mac User I can also see it being very powerful because not only do you get all of the iPad interface and apps and interactions and the newness of technology that I enjoy but you can bring your Mac uh apps in as a window and interact with it as well and uh you can even hook up keyboards and trackpads to The Vision Pro to interact with everything natively uh through um iPad and Mac's uh trackpad system and keyboard system and feel perfectly at home in The Vision Pro and I I think that part of that is because the Mac exists and you know and without the Mac there wouldn't be a Vision Pro there wouldn't even be an iPhone so you know I think they all borrow you the thing a few months ago where somebody managed to get Windows XP running on the Vision Pro simulator I don't really know why but it was impressive thing yeah I think it's just people well you're the guy who likes emulators and stuff don't you so maybe you would pursue that kind of line as well but not me I don't think curiosity I'm not going to run an operating system in the Vision Pro I don't think um I mean Windows XP can run in a browser so you can go to a website and and run with those I will not rush to go do that but it's interesting to know um I tell you something else I I think I have a I have a bookmark to Windows 98 saved just because please rush me a copy go play some have to go in the uh the Show links do you think now we brought it up I suppose it does doesn't it but no one has to click it I'll find it yeah you know it's just there you no it's there it's useful but go beat go go beat the high score in Space Invaders that's that's always fun the the pinball game that's built into Windows I no idea Space Invaders is built into windows I remember um a y the pinball game is just part of it yeah I don't know why they did that but it's just there it boots in and there's this back in the day the Mac had that what do you call that puzzle the sliding Block Puzzle that's all that came with a Mac back in the Youth of its time but okay uh I was amused by you going straight to games at your kindergarten I felt like that's is that where it began for you this mad C Crazy Games Obsession you have no uh there was already a Super Nintendo and a Sega Genesis in my home by the time I attended kindergarten I tell you something I did I thought was stupid actually one week ago we were talking about Vision Pro and the pre-orders and I I knew full well that uh we were recording just before pre-orders opened on the Friday and they would the things would actually be delivered or be in people's hands in stores on February the 2nd but in my mind you were already packing for your Nashville trip as we talked but um we're not are we and as we talked I don't know whether you actually successfully placed an order did you get were you beaten by all of these Bots that apparently ordered loads of them so yeah I actually did succeed uh in pre-ordering so I went ahead and ordered the Vision Pro with one tbte of storage cuz I'm a Madman um the well so you have to rely on the rumors and I don't think enough people are paying attention to it I know the rumors can be wrong we could get a Vision Pro in 6 months and they can call it the New Vision Pro I don't know we'll find out but what it looks like from the supply chain is they can't make enough of these things already Sony's angry at Apple soaking up their entire distribution platform for these things um there's so there's all this drama there's all this going on and the what it looks like is the Apple Vision the cheaper version of this headset won't even be announced mentioned until 2025 sometime and I'm not interested in that one it's going to be cheaper and it'll have similar features but it'll be by all accounts a lesser version of this one and if it can do anything The Vision Pro can't that'll be interesting of Apple to do I don't know that they'll do that but they could pull an iPad and be like oh by the way in the meantime since we've introduced The Vision Pro we introduced apple pencil hover and here you I don't know but anyway uh so I don't really have much interest in buying that one if I already have the Vision Pro I don't need to downgrade to the Apple Vision the next Vision Pro isn't expected until 2027 3 years from now maybe 26 but the rumors are suggesting 27 so if I'm going to have this computer for the next three years I'm going to want as much storage as possible because we don't know what the Paradigm is going to look like we're not going to know what apps are going to be available how the how things are going to shift in the next 3 years Vision OS 4 right like what is going to change how are things going to happen so I wanted the most storage available so I went ahead and got one terabyte and uh pickup day in Nashville at the store my initial order was going to be pick up at 8 uh at 8:30 and for whatever reason I went to check out and it said no pick a different time and it made made me pick 9:00 so someone stole my slot apparently which is fine but that that's kind of funny so at least one other person that I know of bought an apple Vision Pro in Nashville 10 minutes early you'll see them coming out you'll know who they were yeah this this stuff is personal no but that that's uh that so that that pre-order process went fairly smoothly uh quickly and no real headache and my weird military uh eye prescription got accepted and ordered my Ze uh inserts as well which may not be here for me to go to Nashville with I might have to set up the Apple Vision Pro with my natural eyesight which will be fun which I can see um without glasses uh unlike other people my glasses are mostly decoration uh I I'm I'm nearsighted and I can't like read far away but I can see so I'm not even actually legally required to drive with glasses though it's recommended um but like yeah I I'll be able to operate Vision Pro fine without them but they'll be they'll be needed so hopefully those arrive before I go to Nashville otherwise it'll be a little blurry for me my mind I I realized what you're saying about the storage the one territ thing and that increases the longevity of it the only bad problems I've had ever with Mac gear has been when the storage has been inadequate even with you know quite low Ram I've been all right since the se30 days storage yes but when you're saying that about an apple Vision I was trying to think what could apple drop um from the only thing I can think of is I it I could see them shedding the eyesight function for a cheaper thing oh well so a cheaper Apple Vision Pro or apple Vision I suppose uh I'm sure they'll call it some it needs a moniker on the end there it doesn't make sense to just call it Vision Apple Vision SE Marvel Superhero yes see I should be working for Apple sort no se Works um what's light I don't know we'll we'll see SE actually fits in with apple it does the phone but C to me um the Apple watch didn't have any kind of um version descriptor until the Apple Watch series 1 came out and everybody started talking about series zero so could be anything kind of but when the Apple watch originally launched it was uh the the nomenclature was there but in a different way uh if you bought the Apple watch sport you got the cheap model got the Apple watch um gosh what was oh it just the Apple watch uh that that was your stainless steel model and then the addition was your gold model right so they still had naming separators it wasn't until later that they introduced the SE and the series versions and stuff but no uh I could definitely see technology-wise um if the Apple Vision releases it'll still be the R1 and M2 they can't really remove that but it might be a lower core M2 so we might see eight cores instead 10 um the display as you say I don't know that they would get rid of eyesight entirely but it could be a different type of display um or yes it could just be a flat plastic front uh a like a a meta Quest kind of thing but see the problem with that is and a lot of people are going for eyesight but the front glass is what allows the cameras because the cameras are using the front glass as a lens to to view the world so getting rid of that because people are all worried about the weight and we'll get into the weight in a minute it's actually not an issue now that we know the weight it's such a non-issue it's hilarious but um getting away from weight the I don't think the front glass is going to change because that is critical to the cameras maybe they Chang the camera system but again then it would be a completely different device so to make this thing cheaper let's be real people are out there expecting Apple to release Apple Vision SE and it cost $22,000 I don't think so it'll be $27.99 it's still going to be an expensive product it'll just be slightly more affordable well by magnitude I mean $1,000 is a big difference but we we'll we'll see uh but there are things it can do and of course the technology matures maybe Apple releases almost the same headset and just calls it a different name because now it's a little cheaper and it comes in more colorful bands or something I don't know but um that'll be an interesting story if it happens at all because some rumors are suggesting Apple's going to skip releasing a separate entity alog together this first generation and wait until Apple Vision Pro 2 is announced to announce a second generation cheaper model which would then make sense for it to basically be the original Apple Vision Pro maybe lesser cores a little cheaper and that and that would be 2027 still so if you're holding out you'll be waiting a few years I am wondering when it's going to come to the UK but I'm trying to think it's just this year you're absolutely sure about that I can rely on you app Apple Apple has made it clear that um external uh to the United States uh shipments will begin in 2024 and UK's usually top of that list so I would assume Canada UK you know that kind of stuff we'll be hearing about this summer like if you really want one William you you you'll be able to order one in July but doesn't come that's the thing it's not the money no no no no not the money at all no it's the bless and the lack of I feel theyve personally let me down there but maybe in July they'll come out with an apple card in the UK as well and we can do some um what do you call it monthly installments from now until uh 2027 and the next one comes out that this it all fits God they planned everything yeah I realized we we left the 40 Years of Mac yeah but is of Mac will never leave us it's a precious special thing and you rais a thing I've got to ask you about because I think I might disagree with you the weight of the headset I know you're right that we know the figure uh but I don't remember what it is for it just uh lighter than expected is that fair to say Okay so this it's been a whole thing all not all of them let's be clear a a handful of the journalists and devel Vel opers that have gotten their hands on Apple Vision Pro so far have commented on the weight and as far as I know and as far as I can tell I don't think any of them ever used that's I was wondering headset before uh because and maybe they have and I'm sure it is heavy I'm sure it is front heavy um these weights are relative to the headset maybe the headband uh and some of these is distributes it differently sure I'll I'll take any of that but the absolute weight um yeah so they don't include the battery weight because the battery is attached to a cable but the Apple Vision Pro uh just the entire headset is 650 g at most because the different um lenses yes light seals and they can but so with everything attached the heaviest components you can attach 650 g or 1.4 lb for uh people who care about pounds so um for reference that's actually very middling if you put it on a chart of every headset like VR headset that's out there on the market that's existed um from like HTC VI I think is like the heaviest and it's even it's much heavier than Apple Vision at like 1.8 LBS or some something I these aren't exact numbers anymore so take me for like go look at it they are heavier but it's just I don't have the exact weights um but Apple Vision Pro is at .4 but what I do know because I have some reference is psvr2 without the cable weight because Sony excludes that but the cable is permanently attached and required for use um Thea the psvr2 is like 136b um 620 some G somewhere in there a just fractionally less but if you include the weight of that cable um the gravity pulling down on it it's and it pulls down on the front of your face by the way cuz the cable attaches to the side of your head yeah it's automatically within range of Apple Vision Pro if not right at it um so if you've used a psvr2 comfortably Apple Vision Pro is not going to be a problem and all of the weight of psvr2 sits on your forehead and if everyone's like well why why is it so heavy it's plastic right psvr2 has uh multiple vibrational Motors so these metal um Motors that vibrate to give you haptic feedback when you're playing video games uh not many other headsets do that and that's why psvr2 weighs so much uh in in addition to its uh multiple onboard sensors and its own glasses and and that that are weighty on their own so there you have it and the um battery by the way weighs less than a pound at 12 o if anyone's wondering like 12.6 o as you was saying that I mean he said this about the the other headset it was occurring to me that the battery even if not attached it must be pulling on somewhere I don't know where the battery attaches on the Vision Pro actually so the funny thing about the battery is I mean okay yes if you let the battery dangle to the floor and pull your head down then the weight would be acting on your head uh that's not how this is going to work the cable will be adding some weight uh to the headset surely but also maybe not so much as say psvr cuz psvr kind of drapes off into the abyss and then has to connect to the PlayStation um the way the Apple Vision cable is going to work is you you can either run it down your back or run it down your shirt or your hoodie whatever uh like for me if if I'm going to be using it for a long period of time I might run it down my shirt you know like a classic classic teen wearing headphones uh back in the day kids uh they headphones had cables and you'd run them through your shirt to hide the anyway um that's what you might do okay um I did say that I thought I might disagree with you and I'm not sure now the reason that was on my mind is that as we record this today just a little while ago um I wrote a story about a newly revealed uh patent application that Apple has put in and it's all about using Apple Vision Pro to monitor uh The Strain on neck muscles and it's really clever because it has no way to actually measure a strain on the neck muscles because you know it's all up around your eyes nothing reaches down there and yet through posture and all sorts of really clever things it's able to determine that you know you're in trouble here it will adjust so what you're looking at to make it slightly more comfortable in some way or it will start glowing saying listen you know time for a cup of tea I don't know that that's the exact error message but yeah posture I I think posture monitoring would be interesting I think that would be a good implementation if Apple can do it I mean patents are always fun uh but I think posture in general is going to be very important with this you can't be slouching with your head down um I think the most comfortable position is going to be lean back looking up honestly um it that'll be great if you're a touch typist with a keyboard you can maybe uh Lounge back a little bit and look up at your windows uh I already know that I'm likely going to just empty my desk and just use my desktop with a keyboard and trackpad and that'll probably be all that's on it other than maybe my open MacBook or something uh so I'm already looking at just dismantling my office this is going to be a lot of fun but um yeah I don't know the it's it's so hard to describe once I actually have this thing and try it I'm going to be demoing I'm going to be wearing it uh like I'm going to be doing the the review for Apple Insider you're going to be hearing everything you could ever possibly want to know about Apple Vision Pro for me don't worry but um yeah as far as how long you can wear it before it becomes uncomfortable I think that depends on the band you're using uh as people have said that strap that goes behind your head it's putting the weight on uh the bridge of your forehead and the top of your nose and I I would assume that would become uncomfortable after a couple of hours so that might be at most you're you know if you just want to quickly pop it on and do maybe do some work take some breaks in between you could probably make it last all day but if you're really planning on using it for an 8 hour work shift you're probably going to use the two band system get it adjusted to your head size and put all of the weight on that top strap which your head's pretty good at supporting weight it would pretty much ignore uh you know what 1.4 lbs at that point so you you would barely notice it was there it won't look as nice but who's looking at you at that point um so yeah and and third party bands should come in we'll see some uh people try different cushioning different things um and I guess we never got to it you want wondered how does the battery work it connects over a magnetic connector that looks kind of like an Apple Watch charger it sticks to the side of the headband uh on I think the left side and drapes over your back basically and goes into the and this is interesting uh the top of the battery and the uh right next to that connector is a USBC Port so the cable going in and the USBC Port going out are both in the top of the battery so if you put it in your back back pocket both cables are facing the same way which is great listen I hadn't thought about this until you said that about clearing your desk for you sound um quite convinced already that this is going to be your major working tool that it's not going to be put it on for half an hour WR the review and forget about it do you feel that Vision Pro is a success for you already I think so in a way um I mean it's it's funny um it's an iPad for all intents and purposes this thing is is running um iPad software and I'm already familiar with uh iPads um yes there's a few major apps missing but I already don't really use any of those apps I'm not really I don't care for Netflix content I have like three shows a year I watch on there um that I really need to start unsubscribing between but uh I need to get people off my logins to do that but um Spotify whatever YouTube um I don't really do YouTube but there's um actually great options for that uh and again these are all in the browser anyway but uh play by I believe Marcos Tanaka is an excellent app that if anyone hasn't tried it it's a good way to follow channels you subscribe to and view their videos within this native uh app player which is also native division pro at launch we'll be trying that out um I just I can see my workflows working in the space I can see pulling my MacBook uh Pro which is still at my desk pulling that screen into the space and using it for the things we've discussed before that I still use my Mac for like I can see this working now the question is longevity can I wear it for an 8 hour shift how long do I need to go before I take a break and I do take breaks you know I'll get up and stretch and walk so um letting my eyes rest once an hour you know for 5 10 minutes not going to be uh too much of a problem should I there will be stretches of time of course when we're super busy and I'll have a couple hours where it's on my face but at the end of the day if I really just need to take the thing off I still have everything else to work from I can still grab my iPad uh and replicate that system and just continue working Without Really any Interruption so I do think this is going to as long as the comfort factor and everything else works the way I expect it to i f intend on trying at the least to work from it for uh initially to see where it can go and if it can and if it works out I will continue working from it several months ago most people who have used Apple Vision Pro to date have done so under heightened circumstances Apple produced walkthroughs in person before they were even allowed to take it home and things but there is one exception which is Apple insiders uh Mike worly he managed to get to use one for some hours without Apple even being around and things and and I thought it was interesting that he came away with a more negative attitude to Vision pray than most other people at the time um he's not here to say his reasons why but uh I think his basic point was that he felt it just wasn't finished yet that it was good but not good enough yet does that sound plausible to you or I mean it was months ago things have moved on from my understanding what Mike interacted with wasn't complete and he says that what he's seen in press since is a much especially the release model is is a much more finalized version of that hardware and uh with eyesight working and everything like that um so not everything was there but also Mike a Mac User like uh like you and um from I I've been sing by this from the beginning I feel like mac users that view the Vision Pro see it as this kind of accessory this uh just just like the just like the iPad it's kind of can I really do what I need to do from this there's no command line here there's no you know I can't bring in my uh text expander or anything like that into this like clipboard Management's going to be a mess and it's all the same you know complaints from Mac users that they would have about an iPad it's this glorified tool that's basically an iPad that doesn't really work the way that they want it to and that all makes sense and I don't think there's any problem with that it's not going to be for everyone this is an incredibly Niche device even iPad users exist that are going to be like no thank you because I don't want to strap a thing to my face I'm fine with it because I've used VR before I don't find it particularly uncomfortable um so I'm willing to give this a try again maybe I'll put it on and I just get sick and can't use it I don't know we'll find out I me I want to we'll see I don't disagree with Mike Mike Mike's opinions that I've heard from him and he actually has a story we're going to have in the show notes about uh me me and Mike kind of Bounce this idea of because we have such different opinions let's write each other's opinions down and as of you're listening today um Mike you know has a story that came out I believe on Wednesday that discusses why Apple Vision Pro is going to be an uphill climb why it's got a few battles on its hands it's going to be um a difficult thing for Apple to prove needs to exist and uh mine's come come out today as it as we release um so you can go read it right now and I'll poke William to make sure he gets in the show notes uh what's it Friday morning but um but um I I wrote I wrote a similar story uh basically opposing that saying okay here's why Apple Vision Pro wins and I can explain a little bit of that now if you I mean I feel like I'm pressing you on Apple Vision Pro a lot but you are the guy who just spent a lot of money buying one and I'm not so uh I think you're more invested in this literally so yeah give me give me the reasons convince me all right so so just to get get a little bit into what Mike said first he he he brings up the pricing and he talks a little bit about um the consumer market and just how do we Define this thing as successful and how how are we going to discuss this thing going forward what's actually the play here and is is it actually a glorified Dev tool as people have suggested and and just kind of these kinds of conversations and he lays out a lot of good points I actually don't really disagree with any of his points it's true this is a very Niche product it's very expensive it's not going to sell in massive numbers um so how will this be defined as as a success or failure and we're never going to really know because Apple's not going to tell us and what we're going to hear from Apple is the good stories and I actually compare this to homepod in my piece uh similarly because Apple still sells homepod people use it can we actually say homepod was a success or not we don't know uh I a lot would say that it was a failure and uh and I think a lot of people are going to say apple Vision Pro at least in its first iteration is probably going to be some kind of failure but what does that even mean when we're like when we look back at iPhone how many units it sold compared to iPhone 4 and 5 was the original iPhone a failure I don't think so it was a stepping stone and that's kind of the point point of view that I come from so go go read Mike's uh first because that's the order they came out in I think they make more sense that way read Mike's story and then read read my story so my story is a little bit more upbeat of course I have a more positive uh view on the matter let me pull up my draft so I can see a little bit of what I'm remember what I wrote down um so basically um my concept is let's explain the different ways Apple Vision Pro wins so first does it need a killer app why does this thing exist why is it out today why didn't Apple just wait to release uh some Rayban sunglasses that does AR popups in 2028 right like why is this here now and the resounding answer that I came to and I think the biggest reason why Apple Vision Pro a needs to exist and why it already wins it doesn't even need we don't even need to have just gotten through pre-order weekend to know why Apple Vision Pro wins and that's because it needed to get released to the wider audience we needed Vision OS in developer hands hardware needed to be in real people's hands because they had reached the limits of their production of their development internally and unless they had released the thing of the world who knows what we'd have gotten in two more years we'd have maybe gotten some Google Glasses uh prideful nonsense that actually never work in the real world world because only people in uh a locked lab and copertino have ever used it right so this is the product that we get because this is us at this point helping Apple develop this program and that's great we've seen this work before that is not a bad thing people treat it as a bad thing beta test in public or whatever uh Google does it with literally everything they've ever released um Apple doesn't tend to do it as much but they have successfully Apple watch accidentally was that they didn't know that they were going to be beta testing Apple watch in public but when they released that first version and saw what people actually used it for watch OS 2 was such a dramatic shift from watch os1 it tells us everything we need to know about that about their product development timeline and realizing oh having this thing in the real world actually taught us something and I think they're being more deliberate with Vis Vision Pro it's out in the world people are going to have their hands on it next week developers have been working the simulator already we're seeing such different things than what Apple expected and once the hardware is in people's hands it's going to shift even more so that by this fall but this winter I think Apple's going to have an actual story for Vision Pro and why consumers need to buy it so it's a success in its own right that it needed to exist so Vision OS could run basically right um Vision o Vision Pro is going to be the Paradigm for the next 3 years maybe it's launching as a developer tool I wouldn't use the word glorified cuz that's you know treating as a pejorative I think it actually I think it works it's not I wouldn't call it a pure Dev tool though it's obviously an entertainment device it's obviously consumer device but it is launching mostly being purchased by devs and um higher and consu consumers but as we go along yes the price isn't going to change it's not going to decrease but in 2025 Apple's going to have a better story for this thing people are going to probably have hopefully have a little more money if the market recovers a little but uh they're going to be still still selling these things they're going to sell them as as quickly as they can make them because it's an Apple product first and foremost but it's a goodlooking one that is entering the market with some really radical Hardware it and this is my second Point look at every so so before I get to my second Point what do you think of my first I really hope you like it when you get it because if it's disappointing you're going to be crushed aren you if you're feeling sick using it and you don't like it that's awful that's what I was thinking there that this episode is brought to you by notion notion combines your notes stocks and projects into one space that's simple and beautifully designed it's this idea of one space that's important notion is so expensive it's so capable that you could do everything in it but that means you also need it to be simple so that you can have one tool and one place to go do everything you need to get all you need in one place now there's and also there's no shortage of helpful AI tools out there but using those means switching back and forth between yet another set of digital tools so instead of you know simplifying your workflow speeding things up it all just becomes more complicated more things to deal with unless of course you're in notion the fully integrated notion AI helps you work faster write better and think bigger doing tasks that you would normally take you hours in just seconds right there in your work you can ask notion to search your projects you can set up automations so that you concentrate on the work you need to do while notion does the organization that normally you have to try notion for free when you go to notion.com slapple Insider that's all lowercase letters notion.com slapple inssider to try the powerful easy to use notion AI today and when you use our link you're supporting our show notion.com slapple Insider thanks to notion for its support of the Apple Insider podcast your second Point yes so yeah my second Point um this is an a win for Innovation uh look back as far as you can and you can maybe sure let's let's go all the way back to uh what's that um Steven Spielberg uh Ready Player one that yes uh right or we can even go back to uh my first back to your first we can go back my first interaction with what you can consider uh VR which really wasn't uh virtue a boy which seared your eyes out and gave you cancer in the 1980s um so the the virtu boy right but but looking even from the virtu boy to the Oculus to The Meta Quest 3 and the evolution and the and the other you know HTC VI what is the similarity it's a big set of goggles and a couple of giant controllers and it has been the same Paradigm of interaction for years cuz you need something for your eyes you need something for your hands apple didn't do that and uh in a way and that required a lot of need to leave the trodden Road right and Apple's good at doing that they left and they found not only did they do eyesight to make things less isolating yes it's weird we'll see how it actually feels uh for other people to look at you and see what they think about that but um I think them trying to treat the isolation dilemma of VR is very important no one else is bothered right um hand tracking other things do this yes don't write me they do it badly let's let's be clear um this is onetoone hand tracking at first I was actually had kind of a crisis the other night I was like wait a minute can can you actually grab objects and hold them in your hand uh or is this all look and pinch gestures and I kind of was like wait a minute no you can only pinch right no actually I finally found a demo of the DJ experience where people hitting buttons in in the in the in the virtual view on the digital turntable scratching the record so you will be able to interact with objects I was a little worried for a second so they their their tracking is good enough that they're they know your hand are doing things it's not just a look and click phenomenon so you're it's not a glorified Mouse Paradigm which is great um so they innovated in that sector which really needed it uh pass through technology has been garbage again don't write me I know the the other headsets have it you can see a black and white blurry space set something out of Twilight Zone in some of these headsets it's not great some of them have better pass through sure but still not on this level this is a whole different thing it's still going to be headset you're still going to see pixels it's not going to be your living room I understand it's still better so Apple had to come in and innovate in these spaces and generate this very expensive first headset I mean we're talking the most expensive thing you can buy now is like $1,500 and it still needs a computer attached to it of course so you could easily get to Vision Pro prices quickly if you bought like I think it's HTC 5 and a PC that you need to run it properly at high resolution yeah you could get to Vision Pro prices but Apple Next Level the whole thing's a computer and it doesn't have fans well it has a cooling mechanism I believe if I understand correctly there is a very quiet fan or some air mover in there of some kind to to dissipate heat because it's necessary to get it off of your face but we're not talking Intel cooling right and the batter is off of your head so the battery isn't heating up your forehead either so all these considerations needed to happen and removing the the battery from the headset no one else did that right the battery I believe in the uh Hollow lens is strapped to the back of your head so it's just interesting so that's my second point is Apple's Innovations in these field in this field is going to lead to a new paradigm shift so and apple not calling it VR on purpose calling it spatial Computing and pushing for this kind of computing means Samsung and Microsoft are going to follow in their footsteps because that's what they do and we're going to see spatial devices like apple Vision Pro from other companies and this is going to create a new Revolution in Computing so that's a win on its own for consumers and everyone you're very convincing about this and and I want this to all be true but I realized there's a small thing that I'm holding back on and I don't really know why um you keep uh making the analogy that the Vision Pro is an iPad and I I can't see that for some reason I don't think it's a Mac I don't think it's an iPad I think it's its own thing but since we are talking iPads it's definitely own thing I mean we've got some actual iPads coming haven't we yeah oh one I had one last point and this one's quick Sho before we get to iPads um so Vision Pro my final point this is all in the article and I break it down much more uh so I I'm not just reading the whole article out loud don't worry guys um but the the last point I had was there was a financial success here and people are going to roll their eyes what they only s 180,000 I did the math uh I put it in here for William to judge but if Apple sold a bare minimum 180,000 in opening weekend they made about a $680 million if they only sold the base units and we know there's higher storage tiers so if they only sold them at $34.99 no accessories they made $680 million what they made yeah okay meta oodles oodles uh meta Quest 2 it so I'm not talking three cuz that just came out medaquest one was an abject failure it only sold 2 million units The Meta Quest 2 sold approximately by estimates 18 million units across its entire lifespan I think of about five years um so uh and if we assume only they sold the $499 version which there was a399 version so I'm discounting that let's let's give them the weight here they only sold $500 models that means they made $7.2 billion so in Apple's opening weekend of they were able to make almost 10% of what meta Quest sold in five years just I understand it's very different it's 180,000 versus uh 18 million I I get the magnitude of numbers that we're dealing with here but is are we really going to sit here and say apple Vision Pro isn't going to be a financial success they're going to sell as many as they can make in the next year and uh we saw a report from I believe JP Morgan Chase one of one of those Banks suggesting Apple could hit 200 uh up to 600,000 units sold by the end of 2024 and uh that math I have not done but you can do it yourself and see $3,500 multiply that very significant income just from a quote unquote glorified dev kit well I'm thinking I listen to you on this and I think we can conclusively prove that Vision Pro does have at least one fan okay you see what I did there didn't you that well mine's supposed to be the positive one we can get mic on here and he can tell us about how much he dis isn't he getting one as well that would be oh that' be so interesting the two of you facing off you know through your Apple Vision GL we've got to do that we'll figure that out some but iPads I love iPads I Have No Reservations to about iPads I want more iPads and I'm going to get them and I understand you know exactly ly when and what yes yes oh no uh there's plenty of rumors and we have a little Roundup here um actually the the rumors have been pretty light uh it's mostly just been repeats it's going to be OLED and they're going to come out in 2024 uh but we have a story here I just wanted to include it in the show notes this wasn't going to be too much of a huge topic and we are running out of time but um I just want to point out OLED iPad Pros um and iPad Mini uh 7 is expected no OLED likely uh maybe uh that that's a that's kind of a 50/50 but definitely no promotion so if you want an iPad Mini with faster refresh rate is probably not going to happen but Apple did say they plan on mitigating that jelly scrolling everyone complains about so we'll see and of course an iPad 11 and then and the new iPad Airs which will be not OLED so they'll be um standard LED but the 11in and 12.9 in sizes and iPad Air uh n clure so that's sometime in 2024 I'm hoping maybe a little bit of wiggle room after Vision Pro if this all comes out in March I might hurt myself uh trying to bend over backwards to figure out finances for any of those things so we'll we'll see how it all goes um but um some point this year is the word and I mean obviously we win a whole year without updates so uh will they be all at once will they be staggered out 2023 was the Wilderness year for iPads yes that was my serious documentary voice there uh the very last thing I want to ask you about and I've been waiting for this for a week now um this is going back to iPad Pros you mentioned a particular thing that you do which I think is transformative and I don't fully understand how you do it it was to do with clipboard managers now you mentioned an app called paste which I have reviewed sorry I should say this I mean if you know what a clipple manager is it's obvious but nobody ever explains it so let me say uh you know when you copy something and you can paste it somewhere else yeah but if you copy something and then you copy something else the first thing you copy is gone unless you have a clipboard manager and it keeps everything so you can paste the last but one thing you paste the thing you pasted this morning all of that once you have them you can't let go over them I want to recommend the one in Alfred 5 but there are dozens hundreds possibly of these they're all great absolutely indispensable once you've used them once they're not on the iPad now you said you use an app called post which I have reviewed on the Mac and I didn't like it because uh I mean it does the job it's very good at it but it's a very visual thing it was showing me images of pages and I I just want the text please but you have got paste working all the time on an iPad which doesn't have a clipboard manager and I need to know how it works how do you actually do this uh so first you need two iPads so that knocks most everyone out of the room yeah um okay yeah uh so I if you've seen my desk before um and there's an image of it on the iPads Pros um art for the episode uh I have a my iPad Pro hooked up to my studio display floating next to it on this arm thing and my iPad Mini on a little holder uh to the bottom left and up until recently cuz uh as I've said i' I've moved to a different setup in recent uh weeks but until recently I've had my I ad mini as an always on kind of display which is fine that they they manage their displays now I haven't noticed any Burnin issues um but I leave it on during the shift while I'm working and it usually has slack on one side and paste on the other and the paste window on the iPad Mini is great because Universal clipboard if I copy something on my iPad it populates paste on the iPad Mini so I have a complete history of everything I copy um at the ready so if I'm like I just accidentally erased a URL I needed or I just erased an entire feature I wrote or something it's all there in the clipboard manager on uh the iPad menu so Universal clipboard comes to rescue there and it works 100% of the time uh as far as I've noticed Universal clipboard hasn't failed um what does like to mess up is moving that across devices sometimes but it tap on what I need on the iPad Mini uh hit command V on the iPad Pro and then there you go it's uh back on the iPad so um I've actually loaned an iPad to somebody I might give them a call later and take it back okay yeah well s since then I've I've I've uh brought the iPad Mini back in as more of a music display because uh as you know I have my Mac back at my desk as a um kind of what what's the word for Brant Brant I keep forgetting the word enough that's the phrase to describe your Mac oh that's it it's kind of kind of a uh oh I always forget the word a status board kind of I I leave it running for um universal control management and I have paste running there so the paste management uh the universal clipboard management has moved to the Mac but I'm not really using the Mac except to access desktop Chrome rarely when I need to for work yada y but that is all very moot because in about 10 days my entire desk is going to get rearranged again so 40 Years of the mac and you're using it for copy and paste and on that bomb shelf no I don't want to talk to you anymore thank you for that sorry I think uh if if we have maybe five more minutes I wanted to run through a couple things yes all right so so um shmon did you enjoy wonderful and it's been cancelled even though they've written the next series apparently I mean at least they've done 25 songs for it and we're not going to hear them ever so that that was a low moment it's miserable do do you believe all these Apple TV plus cancellations like we we've seen several in the last uh 3 or four months are they all related do you think to the riter strike renegotiating so much happened because of the strike uh First Look deals uh this wasn't an apple thing this was an industry thing after a certain amount of time all the first luck deals that streamers had with companies just stopped so they've had to be all renegotiated I think some of them just reup straight away but it's through everything I mean I know Silo was actually in production of its second series and I cannot find out for anybody whether it's resuming for it I I believe Silo is resuming I I do know uh from people discussing it Severance has resumed filming so Seance is coming back thank goodness cuz that was such a good show um yeah we'll we'll see I mean obviously the other ones uh for all man kind already pretty much confirmed um Foundation is coming back so we'll we'll see about the rest but uh some of these shows that have been canceled I was really excited for and yeah they're more the B tier Apple TV Plus shows but uh we saw several go one I thought was clever was Apple announced the fifth season order for slow horses but I already knew it had that because uh a year ago now they two at a time well they were at least prepared I knew last January I knew they'd already F we've had three aired now it was two then third has come out since I knew they'd already finished the fourth and that they were at least in expectation of a fifth so they were working on it and then they did the whole thing of arranging Gary oldman's schedule so that all his stuff the latest RW one is got filmed before the actor strike kicked in so they were ready and could keep going for it I mean a lot of the casts are British so they're not part of uh sag after but Gary Alman obviously is so there was a lot of logistics and jiggling and they've kept going so I think they did a marvelous job there and we won't even see uh a dist I mean that sounds very um uh critical of the strike the strike was essential and Writers Guild and sag aftera did great things no yeah it was very but there is a cost and it's I'm glad slow horses isn't affected yeah it's It's upsetting to lose things that you cherish but the obviously the strike was necessary but um it's still pains me a little to see so many good franch like so many good things end so soon but uh things that aren't ending is uh killers of flower moons run through award season we we see that it got uh 10 nominations um yeah so that's exciting still haven't watched it I don't know why just haven't had time but I'm very much excited to uh take look at that moreing for barie myself I adored that film and the script was amazing just joyful yeah last line I mean yeah isn't it the I'm not going to spell it oh of course isn't it the uh the what what what's the word I I wouldn't say ironic but isn't it Ken got the nomination and not Barbie or Maro I think not everybody realizes that Mar didn't just star in it she created the whole project so actually she officially she is nom for an Oscar part of the production for it but yes somebody was pointing out that's basically the plot of that the man gets a nomination it's yeah well they've given them the plot of Barbie 2 where Ken gets nominated for an Oscar um children's programming took a hit uh we I saw this coming I don't know if anyone else did their children's programming is very PBS Disney Jr 1998 and I really want them to grow up so maybe uh sadly that took firing a few people so U we saw a few people only only a hand funny about the number eight that feels to me like it's one show got canned I mean I don't know and we wouldn't ever get what it was but and you know they weren't redeployed so I don't know what was going on there but yes it's curious times at Apple TV plus but so interesting isn't it I remember 2019 it started and you wanted it to be good and was nothing decent for ages and then Ted lasso broke and suddenly that's I I've often said this every service needs one breakout hit and once it's got that Bang that's exactly what happened with Apple TV because of Ted lasso even if I don't like it one one last bombshell for you William and I'll let you go Apple car has been delayed till 2028 what shall you do with all that money you were saving for Apple car buy a few thing is I understand why uh they're trying to get the exact right Jade of blue and that is remarkably difficult people don't appreciate that at all so you know I I can't criticize them for affection really I can't this is now getting silly right uh next week we'll be very serious on the up inside the pocket we'll have we'll be in ties shirts everything very very serious the whole way through that doesn't sound likely does it but we'll be closer to Apple Vision Pro\n"