Episode 78 - Matt Sephton, former Apple Technology Evangelist, and the early WWDC news
The Future of Apple's WWDC Conference
Years from now, it's easy to imagine that the Mac may go away and that the kids raised on Swift playgrounds and creating code in the iPad will be using some future version of iPad as their primary computing device. It's kind of moving in well that yeah, that's bold. And what's nice about it is I've set it to be years out so I can wait years to be wrong, years potentially after I'm dead. Well, just in case that could be shorter than years could be it's a little grim.
Never know never know what the future holds, but one thing is for sure, Apple has returned WWDC to its developers, it's no longer the consumer event that has been for the past few years. They didn't announce any hardware, a lot of the stuff they did announce was very developer-focused and they announced a lot of things that will very soon help devs create great products for consumer consumption. You can kind of see that with mainstream coverage, slight disappointment at WWDC's lack of announcements, but there you are, a lot of people misinterpret what this conference is all about, and it's turns out, it's actually for the developers.
Yeah, interesting, that's the biggest takeaway. I mean, you can just see it, how much time do they spend on Swift? Right at the end of the keynote, they spent quite a bit of time talking about Swift playgrounds, and also spending quite a bit of time just talking about Swift. Time that previously would have been spent talking about some throwaway iOS feature that is kind of flashy and raises excitement for the general consumer. None of that.
My biggest disappointment out of this whole thing was so small, my biggest disappointment was that Cred Federi said one more thing and then didn't deliver. He just happened to have to say something that he forgot from the script. Yeah, if you're going to invoke those magic three words, you really have to invoke them.
The Music Demo: A Cringy Moment
I thought it was a bit awkward and cringy. It was a bit cringy. It was but not because of what she was doing; it was because of expectations as to what the keynote is supposed to be.
Eddie Q's Karaoke Stick for One More Year in a Row
No, no, no, stop right there. Break it down. You can have Eddie Q doing his karaoke stick for one more year in a row or you can have both was the woman that Apple hired away from PepsiCo's music group. Where she was responsible for getting Beyoncé into Super Bowl 47's halftime show. Yeah, this is a woman who knows her music up and down backwards and forwards has relationships with artists and has pulled stuff off that you or I would not be able to do.
Other People in Her Level
I take that back; there aren't that many people at her level. She's a music nerd and she's fantastic. It was it was great. In if you have the if you go into WWDC keynote expecting what it is supposed to be, it's a product release kind of Celebration or something you know for consumers by Apple, then it comes off a bit differently.
A View from the Right Light
But I think if you view it in the right light, it was good. Yeah, that's my take.
Where Can People Find You?
Mikey Campbell can be found on Twitter at @mikeycampsell81 and on Apple Insider.
"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor and joining me today is Matt Sefton and Matt sefon is uh an an engineer who is a former technical evangelist for Apple and we're going to talk a little bit about what that means and what his perspective is on some of the news coming out of WWDC 2016 cool Matt go ahead and and introduce yourself properly because I've I've done a very terrible job of it I think that was fine Victor um yeah I mean my name is Matt um a former Apple techn technology evangelist and um Victor you just asked me a moment ago what exactly that means and um I was talking about the fact that over in the UK we don't really use the term evangelist uh or evangelism very much at all but I think it's a it's a bigger thing over in the states uh whenever I'd introduce myself in meetings it would always raise a smile or a giggle or two and uh get things off to a good start um as you mentioned Also earlier on uh the first evangelist at Apple was Guy kazaki um I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of years ago actually uh through a really nice guy and um I think most most teams within Apple will have access to an evangelist um we within the corporation we would focus on specific uh areas of the business so for me that was uh web Technologies advertising Technologies and related tools um but you know other people that I know may specialize in graphics Technologies or uh games technology etc etc and is that an an outward facing role to try and spread the word about those those sort of Technologies to people outside of apple or is it trying to to Champion them inside what what's uh it's both actually so um I mean the obvious meaning of the word is to is to you know sing and praise a particular thing so uh yeah I would take the the word of the technology and out to businesses agencies Brands and so on uh and also internally um for the teams that I supported internally I would use my expertise and the area of knowledge that that uh I was focusing on to help them do their jobs better as well and advertising is an interesting one because Apple had the IAD platform which is is now I think discontinued that's right well I think um part of it is yeah um I think the news broke in January about uh the network side of things being winding down uh around about now um maybe the end of the month um it goes on still in news and uh I imagine the the recently announced search ads product is go some way to uh be in a continuation of of what those guys were doing okay now let's get to it because the uh event and I rewatched the keynote yesterday afternoon was just a very large event it was pack P full of stuff let's unpack that a little bit for me will you cool yeah I mean for me uh it's a bit of a shame that I wasn't there this year I would have liked to have seen the new venue um to fit that many people in one room is something that I feel that has been needed for quite a while um that would have been nice to see um and then obviously the just the sheer amount of information they packed into those two hours and the pace at which uh they covered everything off uh for me was astonishing to to see um it just felt like they'd really hit their stride and uh yeah just brilliant brilliant to see it yeah and the pace of it was kind of Staggering for me because if you didn't pay attention you would miss these little onliners that went by and they were things like the fact that that the Notes application both for uh for iOS and for Mac OS I expect is now a collaborative application you can have multiple people working in a note at the same time yeah absolutely amazing you know and uh I wasn't aware of anything that was going to be talked about uh in the conference um but on the flip side I had to rewatch it to catch things like that because uh it passed me by on the first listen yeah there just one liner is thrown in there and by the way it's collaborative and and then he goes on to the next thing and and you I'm scratching my head saying how many of these things are in here you know missed that's it you know taking screenshots of of those slides where it has hundred different Technologies scattered around the the screen you know just to try and get a PE a quick glimpse of or a peek at uh at what might be coming up later on in the week oh yeah we we posted those screen grabs on the Apple Insider website and I was looking at them and trying to figure out because so one of the things that I'm I'm personally interested in is homekit um I have many homekit devices in my house I like them very much and looking at that um you know they have homekit air condition listed and they have homekit accessories listed and I don't know if hit accessories refers to the same kind of products that I'm using today or something different and you know we classically think when we're talking about airon we talk about the thermostat because that's what controls the user interface to the aircon MH but they've listed air conditioners separately it out like that interesting you know I I don't know if they're talking about homekit compatible um window air conditioners or something else the the other thing that was really intriguing to me was that they've got they they they showed four home builders that they said are building homekit right into homes okay so now I've got to ring up a builder and start finding out what on Earth they're building yeah maybe maybe we should all buy new houses so we can get that in uh straight off the bat I I think we must yeah um another one that uh that jumped out at me and again it was a kind of small point in the the initial uh keynote and and State of the Union uh presentation but as we can see through the week the more and more information is being discovered and and uh learned about it in sessions is the new file system coming from Apple you know the real nerdy side of me can't wait to take a look at that and and see how it lines up against HFS and I'll be interested to hear what you have to to say about it because you know we've been watching Apple Explorer file systems for some time now they they had HFS and HFS plus and then they added journaling and then they brought over the fellow whose Name Escapes Me forgive me but he he's the fellow who was in charge of the the BFS file system at B okay right yeah I'm not aware of him actually and well I'll I'll find him in a moment but um there was also the Exploration with uh with ZFS for a while or ZFS as you'd say yeah yeah I mean I remember reading uh even as an Apple employee reading John Syracuse's uh monstrous Toms reviewing each version of uh 10 um and I know for a while he was a real um supporter that a new file system was needed I did see a photograph of him taken at dubdub um at the moment he found out that that a new file system had was actually arriving yeah and I I haven't seen that photo but he uh it was the end of an era when he stopped putting together those those toes of of summaries of the new operating systems it really was kind of freed up a little bit of time in my life but but uh I would much rather still had him around doing that yeah I I think it was Dominic Jim Polo who um went over to Apple to the file system okay I'm not not entirely positive but I think it that's correct um but there you know for for a while it looked as if we were going to get ZFS as the file system and uh and then we didn't yeah yeah Dominic jino is the uh person who developed the B file system for B operating system and he's currently at Apple right I mean the the Z f s news you know I think that was actually I was at Apple for 3 years and I think that was all being talked about before I started at Apple so I'm I'm familiar with those rumors that's for sure yeah so the the point of the new file system we may as well talk about it is um that everything is faster everything is more secure and it's a 64-bit file system so you can have a lot larger number of files I think the number begins and one of the although I can't it qu quintilian something like that yeah it's it's a very large number with with very and large capitalized the um but but one of the things that I think is interesting is is we know that Apple has a sincere focus on privacy and they they aren't afraid to express that and I believe this file system allows for individual file level encryption amazing amazing yeah I mean I've not finished reading about it but um in a nutshell I think that it's just a more modern file system is is automatically straight away going to be a lot more relevant a lot more um as you say performant and uh secure um yeah I think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out um I'm going to install on my test test machine uh Sierra just to have a poke around and see what that's capable of but just just the fact that it's based on the modern technology we have in computers that you know SS SSD drives um rather than HFS which has been around I think 18 or so years and was invented oh no it's it's longer than that longer than that okay okay yeah you know it's it's crazy isn't it that we've been using it for so long well well the original HFS came from 1985 wow okay and and HFS plus followed on much later um yeah I think that's 18 years ago that one so I think um to take advantage of of solid state storage there are a lot of things that the file system would have to do uh today that those older file systems were kind of coaxed into doing um so I think a fresh start is for me uh overdue and also I think quite uh a lot of work must have gone into it to get it to a position where it's actually um you know ready for a beta that's for sure yeah now one of the things that I've I've watched and was interested in but I'm somewhat concerned about was the uh the notion that Apple wants to move my old files into the cloud right there's there's uh and it's it's file system related but it's also cloud services related and and they mentioned that this was going to be a possibility that besides synchronizing files across everyone's desktops or or computers as were that the um the the old files would be taken to the cloud to reserve space on the laptop sure um you know if you if you've ever done any kind of it support or Mac help with any your family you'll know that more often than not the computers are you know kind of tight on space or they've got a lots of duplicate files or unused files hanging around and you're being generous yeah I I think one of the favorite times at least with with some of my family one of the favorite pastimes is to reorganize things try and regain a bit of space here and there you just you only have to look on the the charts in the Mac App Store to see that more often than not the top of the either the free or the pay chart is more often than not a an app that is there to help people try and regain space on their on their computers so for that to become a system level technology um you know it's it's only going to be better for the user in the end and I think that's that was one of the prevailing topics of of what was announced in the kyot is there was so much being done in these new versions of everything that that is just to make people's lives easier and to to have them spend the time on their computer in a in a fun way rather than carrying out administrative tasks or maintenance so let me ask what what really stood out to you what what spoke to you as one of the key things that came out of this keynote I think for me there's a there's a kind of seam running through all of the operating systems all four platforms but mainly iOS and and Macos uh were extensions are now going to be used to kind of widen the remit of of an app um you know you might think that the app store has been along for for several years now and apps perhaps over time can do enough but maybe reached a a kind of time where it's maybe plateaued a little bit in terms of the Technologies I mean of course Apple release new apis and Technologies every year um but for me this year with extensions being everywhere almost um whether that's providing an interface in in iMessage on iOS or inside of maps uh to provide driving directions and and those types of things for me uh that's just a real a real moment for app developers to to gain control of more of the operating system than than their kind of siloed app can do anyway um I think we'll be seeing some really cool stuff with this definitely yeah and and do you recommend that our listeners wait until the till the fall when things are released or or do you recommend that they become daring and participate in the the beta programs what's what's your take on that uh well I mean personally I would only ever install it on a test device because it is a a beta test uh version of the operating system some people I can understand um maybe can't wait um I took a look on Twitter late last night and there were a few people who uh perhaps had obtain the beta through um less reputable means uh maybe you know they've got friends to sign them into uh their developer account and got a hold of it that way um but they obviously hadn't seen the web page where you download it themselves where there's a big warning saying that you have to install xcode 8 on your Mac um if you're going to do the update through iTunes otherwise it won't work um so a lots of people complaining of the error that gives you when you don't do that um I think the easy way is to do it with the over the a update um absolutely um you know I have I'm looking enough to have a test device you know if people don't have test devices I think at this point if you do put it on your device it's you you have to understand that it is a work in progress and certain things are missing as as the release notes say and uh some things won't work but on the whole on my test device it's probably the most stable first beater of a of an iOS that I've ever seen really that's I mean good yeah given given the things that that have been flagged as known to be missing and known to be not working other than those things it's uh pretty neat I mean it looks great as well wow now one of the things that I I noticed in some of the release notes was that um or at least some of the coverage of some of the releas notes I should say is the idea that apple is pushing for https and current SSL cert certificates at web servers and and that it it occurs to me that one of the KnockOn effects of that is that if you're an application that goes out and pulls images from all over the Internet like a Twitter app or or another app that that does that kind of behavior that you're going to end up viewing necessarily um a lot of blank spots because Apple's pushing this encryption now sure um I mean and I should say the reason they're doing that is because they want for they they want for more secure Internet it's not because they're being mean AB no no of course not I mean it makes it makes absolute sense um this kind of Transport Security has been around for a while actually a couple of couple of years on uh on Macos or what we're now calling Macos anyway um so for it to come to iOS if that is the case then um it's about time really you know there are in the developers documentation you can read about um ways to configure that technology so it does give you access to certain um perhaps disables it for certain servers if you really need it to um so there are ways and means around that but to use it on the on the main part of your application is definitely a good thing you know and and secure certificates for servers now there are lots of initiatives uh to bring down the cost of those um especially for small developers there is a initiatives where you can essentially get those things for free now I I I know I promised that I wouldn't ambush with any questions but I I going to ask and you can tell me no sure um is is there an anecdote you can relate about your time at Apple and um you know some of the challenges that you faced there I I understand if the answer is no I can't talk about that but i' I'd like to hear if you've got one anecdotes um let me have a think and we'll come back to that but I I'll definitely give you an answer to that all right um what of of the keynote really really struck you what what really resonated with you I think the the bit that that resonated the most for me was um it started strong it started with for me the the platform that needed the most attention or needed the to to go off first which is uh watch OS definitely um some amazing changes in watch OS and uh I think for me as a as a an Apple watch user those changes are all the right Chang es to make my life with the watch easier and uh more performant simpler uh more familiar um with the the kind of interactions that have come across from IOS so I think that was the bit that really made me kind of knb my head and and kind of say finally yeah the uh I I've got an Apple Watch and I don't wear it very frequently um it it just wasn't sticky with me and I think was because the uh the the ID of notifications on the wrist is something that I can get through a pebble or an Intel basis or one of the others and and works just fine and the activity was good but good good yeah before the Apple watch came out did you did were you a regular watch wearer I'm interested to know uh mixed off and on um I I will go through bouts where I will wear a traditional mechanical wristwatch for um you know a couple of weeks and then switch to something else and I have a couple of Mechanicals that I rotate through I have uh I have two of the I have the original Pebble and the Pebble Steel and an Intel basis and the Intel basis was actually one of the best of them okay uh the the basis Peak is not a bad piece of Hardware uh very good heart rate measurement very good with notifications and especially being able to dismus all educate all all notifications quickly where if if you weren't aware of 3D touch and what that interaction is like on the watch um on the uh on the basis Peak it's just simply double tap the screen and it dismisses all of the notifications nice nice right with with the watch you act intentionally tap and then push harder and uh sure be interested to try out that you know the new uh the new mechanisms for for getting at that on on Apple watch I think you're going back a little bit you're almost the same as me and that uh you know I historically have worn um I don't know whether I'd call them mechanical watch quartz watches um traditional watches traditional watches um but with an analog face and uh you know that kind of um dance you have to do every month or two to to move the date on which is uh still what I do when I wear my old old style analog watches I have you know Scandinavian watch that I love to wear um and a Swiss watch that I love to wear and I still wear them every now and again um because they look so good um and I'm a stickler a good design so there we go yeah well you're going to have to send me pictures of your watches now well there yeah it's already on on my Instagram I think but uh happy to do so um yeah so um I think that's probably the or at least from the people I've talked to they're always the toughest nuts to crack in in in terms of watch usage or the people who have traditionally worn watches and and kind of fallen in love with those traditional watches which was definitely uh both of us by the SS of things and I think for me to to wear my Apple watch more than I do now would be um this new software and and the promises that come with that would definitely be uh difficult to say no to yeah one of the things that I noticed in the watch update was well there were two things that really caught my ear and one of them was that when they they showed sort of the app switching view of it it it looked I thought that I heard a reference to calling that dark which seemed unusual to me yeah I I heard the same thing so I mean I've actually not tried it yet because I only have one watch and I'm I'm not willing to put the the beta on there but um well it's an Aron effect you have to have I you have to have IOS 10 running on an a phone device and also so you have to have a spare phone and a spare watch yeah that's it so I'm going to try and dive into the simulator and see how far I can go with that um obviously the experience won't be quite as as nice but it at least might let let me take a look at uh those new features of the software yeah one of the things that I saw that that really caught my attention was the uh ability to view other people's activity Rings yeah great and and challenge yourselves right you know the the traditionally we've had that with the likes of Fitbit and job own up and up has really done a very good job of it uh one of one of the better jobs and I participated in those kinds of challenges and and most recently I had one where I had a job own up challenge going with some friends and I sort of dropped out of it when they fell off and and the idea of having the Rings going and having everyone's rings out there in addition to the the reminders to breathe and the reminders to to get up and move does does work for me it does resonate with me yeah I think that kind of social aspect of the watch and even uh the kind of social aspect to messages that's also kind of collaborative if you I don't know if you watch the the messages demo in I think it was the State of the Union uh platform state of Union Address you can I could send you a picture and you can modify that and send it back to me um so that kind of social collaboration um you know we talked about notes earlier on as well I think it's that's just Society these days you know we want to help each other out we want to um make each other yeah absolutely well people who listen to the podcast know that I'm a big fan of Apple pay and uh I I don't know you're you're an England so you you've got it for Oyster card and you've got it for some retailers but how widespread is it for you well it's it's pretty much everywhere because um even before Apple pay we had contactless payments um most banks uh would give you a a debit or a credit card with a chip embedded in the NFC chip um that would let you do these kind of contactless payments so already we were using those kind of payments Apple pay just kind of made that easier because there was no card anymore you just one device that you've got with you at all times then when the watch came along even easier um you know my wife loves to use her Apple watch to pay when she gets on public transport because she we've just had a baby so she's pussing pushing the pram around um the fact that she doesn't have to go into her bag or go into her pocket she can just swipe the watch uh to make that payment and get on the transport is a real time saer for her yeah one of the things that I was looking for and I was hoping to see but did not see was you know we saw when they were showing us the messages demo that you could use extensions and for example pay someone with square cash and in my experience you know I suppose in San Francisco and in San Jose in those areas the square cash has has a large amount of adoption and people don't mind doing it or they use venmo or things like that um I live in a part of America where that hasn't caught on yeah we still the big thing yeah PayPal of course is is is everywhere um Square I'm looking for Apple pay to beat PayPal I want to be able to send people transactions via messages using Apple pay absolutely that would be awesome um we're not there yet I don't know why Rome wasn't built in a day I don't think you know come on I I saw I saw a really interesting tweet actually about um you know somebody complained that maybe watch how it is with version 3 that's just been announced is maybe how it should have been uh when it was launched and uh Fraser Spears who's a Scottish guy he a real iPad Advocate and works in one of the schools up in Scotland that uh has one iPad per pupil he he came back with a really good Cedars I think it is okay yeah uh he came back with a really great remark in that um you know that's like expecting somebody to be born an adult uh which really made me laugh and it's the same thing yeah you know it would be it would be a great world if if watch OS came out as mature as it is with version 3 um on day one but that's just that's just not how software development works we we all expect that if you put nine women on a job you can have a child in one month yeah you know to to to Fraser's point to to M Mr Spear's point you know honeybees are born fully sized adults you know it's that's why can't iOS be done true and and actually the human uh human babies are are one of the most immature uh when they're born actually as well so um both ends of the spectrum covered off the yeah there there you have it Apple Insider listeners we have biology and genology on a on an Apple technology podcast so um you asked me earlier on about um a tale to tell I mean I think one of the one of the most fun tales and I do know this is true um but I don't really know where these these kind of stories start I mean I have firstand knowledge of of um certain people involved in the story but um this is to with the the box for the iPhone one of my old uh former colleagues and friends um Tom Crabtree who now runs a a design studio called manual creative in San Francisco he worked on the original box at Apple um as part of a small team and the story goes um that he designed an amazing looking box kind of like um monolith and then there was a second box designed which had a a lovely picture of the phone on top and and these boxes were shown to Steve Jobs and Steve looked at them both uh so the story goes and looked at this monolithic box and and proclaimed that it was the most beautiful box he'd ever seen uh which I'm I'm sure um he didn't say lightly and uh he said however I'm going to take this second box the one with the picture on the front because that shows the buyer exactly what they're getting um but now I think the sweet irony is that the the box for the six and the 6s um is pretty much uh that monolithic box although in white rather than black so I think that's kind of sweet irony that uh that beautiful box did actually come to exist yeah and I love it when those things do come true you know it's we don't always get it delivered on the first one like you're saying about the watch but if we get it eventually that's good enough absolutely well I want to thank you Matt very much for participating with me today can you tell me where people can find you on the internet what's Twitter what's your Instagram where should we look for those pictures of your watches absolutely um so you can find everything um my Twitter is ginger beard man uh which is only slightly embarrassing um but I've had it for so long I can't bear to change it and my web address is the same as well um and there's a whole bunch of links off there to medium where I'm currently uh trying to brush up my writing skills by writing about my thoughts on dubdub um and it talks about you know I'm up to now in my in my days after Apple um which is basically uh the same kind of things that I was doing whilst I was at Apple but I'm now doing them for for anybody who'd like to uh like me to work with them wonderful well thank you so much again this has been uh Matt sefon and Victor marks with the Apple Insider podcast thanks Victor cheers all right I'm gonna press so um welcome to the second portion of the Apple Insider podcast it's me Victor back with with Mikey Campbell Apple Insider editor what is going down everything no this is this is awesome because you know we've got Daniel Aaron dilder over at WWDC and he's attending the sessions and he tells me that it's it's like trying to drink from a fire hose that he is overwhelmed with how many cool things are going on so I hear yeah and it's it's you know he's he's having a hard time processing it all and one of the things that I noticed in the keynote was just how quickly things came out features came that were almost like throwaway lines right they just went through them blazingly fast I mentioned earlier when I was talking to Matt Sefton that that there was one one liner in the notes conversation where he where the where the presenter said oh and also notes are collaborative mhm yeah what you can have multiple people editing notes real time what the heck you know it's it's crazy but it kills Evernote which is awesome yeah I wish they brought that collaborative stuff to more uh iCloud apps though I know it's coming but I I I don't know look the collaboration in keynote and pages and numbers has always been a dumpster fire mhm it's been a tire fire at the landfill kind of bad yep they need to bring they need to bring decent iCloud integration to all their to all their first party stuff mopping the floor right now well you say that but my thought is this right if they've mastered how to do it for no notes then they've mastered how to do it for those other applications and simply need to bring it over and you expect they they mastered it I haven't used it have you tried out well I have not tried notes for iOS 10 yet because I have not yet updated a device of Mind iOS 10 and I and you really need to update to in order to collaborate right yeah I don't know maybe the uh service is not even up and running yet who knows yeah but they've said it and I want to believe it's going to work why do I want to believe it's going to work when when they've had other issues in the past because hop Springs Eternal Mikey indeed that's just how I feel about it what would what were some of the things that really struck you out of the whole keynote um it was interesting that they spent so much time on messages I know it's uh well that they said it's the most used uh first party app on iPhone um I believe that but it it seems like they're doing I mean there was a lot of interesting stuff especially a third party integration stuff uh was good I'm looking forward to that I I feel like that third party integration stuff is potentially the most viral way of getting your app seen ever because if if you look at the screenshot images right first of all they showed you the messages app store right the the list of things that work there yeah also when you when when you use a third-party extension for messages it puts in underneath whatever graphic or thing that it puts in from the you know blank name app and links to the app in the app store right yeah right so so if I send you an animated gif of your brain exploding for example you can tap on that link directly Bel beneath the animated image of your brain exploding and go get the same app and send me pictures of my animated brain exploding of course it always I it all depends on app Discovery in the I message app store as well right but but I'm what I'm saying is that by having that link there when someone uses one that fixes Discovery because you you've discovered it via someone else already using it and giving you the link where to go to get it that's kind of huge I agree I uh less huge are the uh full screen animations and uh message bubble things you don't like the uh you're not a fan of the Happy New Year I don't look forward to having my messages filled with animations maybe cuz I'm a kogan but I just don't I don't know it it feels not intrusive but I mean it's going to be very very animated I feel okay so so the way that this goes right is that and it wasn't it wasn't hidden or anything right many many parts of the keynote addressed users in China for example MH and replicating features available in other messaging apps and during that demonstration I was sitting with some people from China or or people who are Americans and speak Chinese and use WeChat all the time to talk to people back in in China and for every one of those features they said oh yeah just like WeChat oh yeah that does that's that's WeChat yeah WeChat does that and so that's what Apple's doing is is bringing over those kinds of features so that people in China will adopt messages yeah now I know you're Japanese so so it doesn't mean anything to you but I'm telling you that's that was the experience that I had sitting and watching the keynote with that kind of an audience yeah I mean Apple always does that though they always borrow quote unquote features from other stuff I mean they've and WWDC is traditionally a place where they unveil these borrowed features but um I don't know some of the stuff feels a little intrusive to me in messages at least some of the stuff is good though uh responding to other texts with um with those like kind of instant the the sort of like responses or yeah yeah that's going to save a lot of time and I do very much like the rich text or uh Rich data in line with the uh with the message uh string so for example you can view videos or you know other other other integrated asset graphical assets and stuff like that in line yeah which is uh also good cuz I hate leaving the app or switching between apps so it's good to see apple opening up all of their architectures so there's a lot of cross integration going on there is and you know it really felt interesting that they found a way to do that when they are so focused on privacy yeah you know they're they're doing something called differential privacy which allows these things to be communicated without giving up your information and uh I think I saw a quote earlier today from a university Professor who said it was simply outstanding it was the most interesting thing he's ever seen been done interesting being able to uh to let me just look that up it was it was the notion that he was um was was able to uh to to do that kind of sharing and still make these things happen um well I think uh there was an interesting session posted uh or the wwec session that they had on uh today so Wednesday talking about iOS security is kind of like a deep dive into all that kind of good stuff and how it forms a basis of what apple is doing on their end uh both on device and um through through their internet services to allow third party developers to have access to such deep Integrations it's kind of interesting you should probably check it out um let's see I'll try to find that link real quick but go on so the the um you we have a page on our site an article we wrote that uh a person named David silverberg wrote on our site about this differential privacy and said that Aon Roth you know the the Privacy researcher from upen came he said that they were groundbreaking efforts and um that that apple is the clear privacy leader and that was in the keynote and and it's that kind of thing where someone whose field is this says that what Apple's doing is pushing the boundaries forward is is reassuring you know it's it's why I don't use an Android device frequently if at all because I value that that kind of respect for the privacy and we were talking about that earlier with uh with with Matt about how that extends to everything whether it's the file system that that does file level encryption to you know this example in messages right well for reference the session was hosted by uh Ivan christic who's uh Apple's IOS security Guru um but yeah uh to the to your point of differential privacy is kind of uh it's kind of interesting I mean Apple's trying to work uh work out how to um obtain the same kind of information on Trends and uh a user Trends and um anonymized data uh all kinds of stuff that Google has you know been so good at uh accumulating of course they do it non anonymized um or very it's easy to accumulate it when it's not aned so I mean they're they're trying to match that technology or that level of insight with safe prot or so or what they say is is uh relatively safe um data Gathering like but as I've said before uh I'm not really I'm not one that is super concerned about companies knowing my habits or you know getting getting data it's not like I opt into stuff like that but uh I don't actively you don't concern yourself with this like some some users do yeah I mean if we really get down to it um I don't have a lot of sensitive data going back and forth across the web um well here's the thing right it's not that one piece is sensitive it's that all of this in aggregate explains a very clear picture of who you are yeah I don't care okay because for me I if I I'm I'm using the internet right I'm on I'm on a say a a Google a Google service I want that service to work as best as possible and um whether it's Google Apple uh Microsoft whoever I'm I'm a little more concerned because we know that uh former CIA and National Security Administration director Michael Hayden used to say that you know he what was his direct quote um he he said that uh that when he quoted uh he quoted uh Council Stuart Baker at a recent debate in John Hopkins University um you know he he raised the point saying we kill people based on metadata M and you know metadata is is this little bit of of data around your actual content data right the fact that you called someone for 30 minutes the fact that you searched for these terms on the internet for all of these kinds of things and that in aggregate forms a picture of who you are and what you do right and when when government agencies use that to Target you or to Target someone and find someone with a match for that kind of profile based on that metadata and yours aligns with it that's creepy scary so are we talking about I mean it's it's a whole it's a conflation of different issues I mean it's a it is is a conflation of different issues but it is that's that's that's kind of the thing is that you know if if Google services are subject to those kinds of searches um and and they had to harden their stuff so that they wouldn't be subject to man-in-the-middle attacks and kinds of things like SSL spoofing and and other stuff that that we found out was being done um even if it's innocuous data to you I am very much pleased that apple is taking this stance and trying to secure it what do you have to hide Victor why do you care none of your business what I do or don't have to hide it is all of my business um no it's not go fish the the government surveillance angle is obviously troubling well it's it's we've already seen it's a real problem not hypothetical problem right well I think it's more than a hypothetical problem but I I there're uh I don't know I don't know who does it fall on though are you going to um suspend your your own Creature Comforts and your own access to you know really really great technology just because of you know something that the government is perhaps sloppily implementing um I make choices about things like that and I don't have to worry about suspending my use of really great technology when there are technologies that are really great and work to preserve my privacy except that technology is is slow coming slow coming if you're sticking with one one platform you you uh you can pick good fast or cheap and and of those good fast or cheap you get two can be good and cheap but it's not going to be fast it can be good and fast but it won't be cheap what about cheap and fast it won't be any good indeed what was one of the other things in the keynote that you were interested in oh um I I didn't really get to take a second look at it but on the uh from what I remember from the live stream um which I was writing half the time so I didn't really get to pay close attention as I would have liked uh but all the the Apple watch improvements I I feel made the device usable for a greater number of people have you tried the beta for that yet I have yes I have what do you think of it it's good it's good it's much more intuitive and it's less Apple forcing stuff on you than you know offering you a platform for which you can do what things you want so for example a really good example is the side button is no longer the contacts button of course um personally I didn't I I think I probably used the context button like three times and that was within the first week of getting my watch just trying it out because messaging people on watch is pretty terrible yeah unless they have you know if they have a watch then it's kind of cool you can you know you send that um you can use digital touch and stuff but other than that uh first you know once the novelty of that wore off and a lot of my friends don't have watches so uh Apple watches that is so I I didn't really use the contacts button but now that it invokes the dock which is basically glances uh the app switching thing which is called doc which is strange to me yeah it's kind of like a it's like a different it's a it's like a live glances kind of thing or not live glances it's like a live yeah it is like a live glances so it's like a combination between an app glance and um and the full app right MH so it's like kind of like a compromise between those two so it it gives you the information uh like a snapshot of it but if you want more you tap into it and you just go straight into the app from the doc so I think that's much more useful than you know having a dedicated button for what was basically a single app the the messages app or messages SL phone combination app I mean do you use your your watch now with uh um do you use it a lot to communicate with people or do you use it mostly as a like as a remote viewing device or you know primarily use it as a well as activities you know the the Rings I I also use it to reply backed people so if if someone texts me or something like that and I can tap yes or no or or use the mic but using the mic and then having to say send his text instead of sending his audio is annoying pretty excruciating experience yeah it is uh but so I mean you're probably happy that they have the new activity faces cuz that looks pretty I mean that that also works very well yeah I was thinking the chronograph version of that is is my answer yeah that one's pretty neat I do like the uh I do like the full screen Rings though it's pretty uh it's pretty handy yes it is and it frees up space for uh other complications yeah which there are many of well I I want you to keep trying the watch and report back to me cuz I have not yet updated the watch I I did update the uh Apple TV oh I did not do that oh that was the easy one yeah is it is it worth it to up I mean not worth it is it are the are the new features uh significant enough uh for me to Trad into those Dangerous Waters not yet unless you have cable surfaces that you want to take advantage of single sign on for or some of these other things uh you know I I changed the interface to dark right away and I tried going for the new TV remote app but I don't think I got the TV remote app to work because I'm not on iOS 10 on the phone yet yeah right and and so I wasn't able to see the fancy new remote interface and use the phone as if it were a Siri remote but uh it's I I think it's one of those things where it's all of these things for the TV come together I mean it wasn't that strong an update in in some ways right but right well obviously it wasn't as flashy as the iOS announcements or the or the revamp of the whole watch yeah yeah but it's it was an easy one to do and I'm I'm thinking it's going to be a good one you know single Canon was the biggest uh roadblock there and the additional services on you know sling on on tvos is going to be a big deal right because that allows you to bring that many more channels in right right so are you a uh are you a Slinger not as yet but I'm gonna I'm thinking I will I think yeah it is they're slowly creeping towards that goal all they need now are the uh are the Partnerships MH one of the things I wanted to bring up here and and I don't know did you read this article that we published about um the accessibility address at at DDC one of the sessions with uh that Dan published um yeah with the um uh what's her name uh haben GMA haben yeah yes I did yeah that really struck me as as coming to the heart of what Apple's about you know and there were a couple of things about the keynote and this session that really got to me and one of them was was this session because Apple has always had accessibility as one of its strong points and it's reassuring to see that even in 2016 that they're they're bringing that forward and uh you know GMA talked about how Apple's work has really made the platform remove all the barriers for people they've got voice over for people who can't see the display Dynamic type for assisting users with low vision captioning in videos to make them accessible for Deaf users and assist of devices that expose the interfaces for digital brail mhm and I wasn't even honestly aware that digital brail was available in in iOS but apparently it is I think uh yeah well I did I don't know if you noticed if you watch closely in WWDC you can you can uh see a quick shot of her um she was in attendance at the keynote uh I saw the brail keyboard in the front yeah she was using a screen reader to um or and I suppose or obviously some sort of voice recognition dictation software connected to a screen reader to uh to listen to all the all the announcements on Monday which is kind of neat yeah um you know she she related an example an experience that is is really striking right she said that she was traveling to China and she discovered an unknown object in her hotel room that appeared to be a fruit and rather than tasting it because God knows what it is right she took a photo of it and sent it to a friend who told her the IDE the object is dragon fruit now dragon fruits well but she is she is vision impaired and hearing impaired right so she was only able to do that because the camera app is accessible with voiceover and without considering voiceover you know because because the developers could have easily said why does a person who's visual disabled need an accessible camera why why would a blind person take pictures but they did it anyway and it totally came in handy it totally worked theories on uh a date when Apple's going to use their new uh computer vision technology with accessibility I I am you know what I I know we are Apple Insider and I know we talk about rumors a lot and we're going to end up talking again about them because even though we were entirely wrong about all of the hardware announcements for WWDC oh D let's just say that let's say it you know we didn't have a display we didn't get a MacBook with Pro with a touch bar although we we saw hints of it in the release the the Beta release that points to it being there but we didn't get it right yeah we never really I'm not going to make the prediction about when we're going to get Vision enhancement kind of things from them yeah what I do want to mention though because this is one that really resonated with me I have been trying to to get my children to be interested in programming for a while o you know hour of code stuff they've done um they've done uh different apps like the human resource experience app that uh came out recently and was on the App Store featured um as ways of trying to interest them in doing this and to be honest they're not that interested so I don't push so hard but I like very much the idea of Swift playgrounds indeed yeah when I saw that announc I was like oh my God I want this now well not only do I want it cuz I want to learn it I love it for my kids and I like it for the idea that there it has challenges built into it and I like it for the idea that for years we've said you know people have said the the iPad is not just a Content viewing device it's a Content creation device right right and and apple said that the iPad is their vision of the future of computing so I'm I'm pretty much banking right here's my Rumor here's here's my expectation my expectation is that years from now the Mac goes away and that the kids raised on Swift playgrounds and creating code in the iPad will be using some future version of iPad as their primary Computing device it's kind of moving in well that yeah that's B that's bold yeah I'm saying that's bold and what's nice about it is I've set it to be years out so I can wait years to be wrong years potentially after I'm dead well just in case that could be shorter than years could be it's a little Grim never know never know what what parting thought do you have what's the biggest news out of this event that you see um I guess if I take a step back it's that Apple has returned WWDC to developers it's no longer the consumer event that has been for the past few years um they didn't announce any hardware a lot of the stuff that they did announce was very developer focused and they announced a lot of stuff that will very soon help devs create you know great products for for Consumer consumption um you can kind of see that with uh you know mainstream coverage uh slight disappointment at wwd's wwc's lack of announcements um but there you a lot of people misinterpret what this conference is all about and it's turns out it's actually for the developers yeah interesting that it's in the name wow um but yeah I'm really uh pleased that they've Tim Cooks gone back to the to Apple's roots with uh with this years's um with this year's WWDC I think that's the biggest takeaway uh I mean you can just see it's for an example how much time do they spend on Swift right at the end of the at the end of the uh 2hour long keynote they spent quite a bit of time and they also spent quite a bit of time just you know talking about Swift playgrounds uh time that previously would have been spent talking about some you know throwaway iOS feature that is kind of flashy you know raises excitement for the general consumer none of that none of that my biggest disappointment out of this whole thing was so small my biggest disappointment was that cred federi said one more thing and then didn't deliver he just happened to have to say something that he forgotten from the script yeah if you're going to invoke those magic three words you really have to invoke them yeah I I'll cut him a break since he carried the entire keynote well there is that yeah what you didn't like bows uh I thought it was a bit uh you like B getting up and doing the whole music demo it was kind of I mean it it really went with the with the dev Focus themee but it was kind of awkward and bit cringy it was a bit cringy it was a bit cringy it it was but not because of what of what she was doing it was because uh of expectations as to what the keynote is supposed to be no no no stop right there because let me lay it out for you no lay it out break it down you you can have Eddie Q doing his karaoke stick for one more year in a row or you can have both was the woman that Apple hired away from pepsic CO's music group where she was responsible for getting Beyonce into superv 47's halftime show yeah this is a woman who knows her music up and down backwards and forwards has relationships with artists and has pulled stuff off that you or I would not be able to do and other people in in her level you know well I take that back there there aren't that many people at her level yeah for her to present music to us in that way was freaking awesome and I want more of it she's a music nerd and she's fantastic it was it was great in if you have the if you go into WWDC keynote expecting uh what it what that conference is supposed to be it's a it's a not it's a uh it's a conference for nerds by nerds and it's great but if you're going nerd as you so she fits right in there and it was fantastic yeah it was a bit cring if you were going if you're looking at it you know from the standpoint of this is a product uh a product release kind of Celebration or uh uh something you know for consumers by Apple then it comes off a bit differently but I think if you if you view it in the right light it was good well that's my that's my take fantastic where can people find you on the internet Mikey Campbell uh at Twitter Mikey Campell 81 and on Apple Insider of course all right well that wraps it up for this week of the Apple Insider podcast and if you view Mikey Campbell in just the right light mhm it's not cringeworthy at all I'm Victor marks we'll see you next week on the Apple Insider podcastyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor and joining me today is Matt Sefton and Matt sefon is uh an an engineer who is a former technical evangelist for Apple and we're going to talk a little bit about what that means and what his perspective is on some of the news coming out of WWDC 2016 cool Matt go ahead and and introduce yourself properly because I've I've done a very terrible job of it I think that was fine Victor um yeah I mean my name is Matt um a former Apple techn technology evangelist and um Victor you just asked me a moment ago what exactly that means and um I was talking about the fact that over in the UK we don't really use the term evangelist uh or evangelism very much at all but I think it's a it's a bigger thing over in the states uh whenever I'd introduce myself in meetings it would always raise a smile or a giggle or two and uh get things off to a good start um as you mentioned Also earlier on uh the first evangelist at Apple was Guy kazaki um I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of years ago actually uh through a really nice guy and um I think most most teams within Apple will have access to an evangelist um we within the corporation we would focus on specific uh areas of the business so for me that was uh web Technologies advertising Technologies and related tools um but you know other people that I know may specialize in graphics Technologies or uh games technology etc etc and is that an an outward facing role to try and spread the word about those those sort of Technologies to people outside of apple or is it trying to to Champion them inside what what's uh it's both actually so um I mean the obvious meaning of the word is to is to you know sing and praise a particular thing so uh yeah I would take the the word of the technology and out to businesses agencies Brands and so on uh and also internally um for the teams that I supported internally I would use my expertise and the area of knowledge that that uh I was focusing on to help them do their jobs better as well and advertising is an interesting one because Apple had the IAD platform which is is now I think discontinued that's right well I think um part of it is yeah um I think the news broke in January about uh the network side of things being winding down uh around about now um maybe the end of the month um it goes on still in news and uh I imagine the the recently announced search ads product is go some way to uh be in a continuation of of what those guys were doing okay now let's get to it because the uh event and I rewatched the keynote yesterday afternoon was just a very large event it was pack P full of stuff let's unpack that a little bit for me will you cool yeah I mean for me uh it's a bit of a shame that I wasn't there this year I would have liked to have seen the new venue um to fit that many people in one room is something that I feel that has been needed for quite a while um that would have been nice to see um and then obviously the just the sheer amount of information they packed into those two hours and the pace at which uh they covered everything off uh for me was astonishing to to see um it just felt like they'd really hit their stride and uh yeah just brilliant brilliant to see it yeah and the pace of it was kind of Staggering for me because if you didn't pay attention you would miss these little onliners that went by and they were things like the fact that that the Notes application both for uh for iOS and for Mac OS I expect is now a collaborative application you can have multiple people working in a note at the same time yeah absolutely amazing you know and uh I wasn't aware of anything that was going to be talked about uh in the conference um but on the flip side I had to rewatch it to catch things like that because uh it passed me by on the first listen yeah there just one liner is thrown in there and by the way it's collaborative and and then he goes on to the next thing and and you I'm scratching my head saying how many of these things are in here you know missed that's it you know taking screenshots of of those slides where it has hundred different Technologies scattered around the the screen you know just to try and get a PE a quick glimpse of or a peek at uh at what might be coming up later on in the week oh yeah we we posted those screen grabs on the Apple Insider website and I was looking at them and trying to figure out because so one of the things that I'm I'm personally interested in is homekit um I have many homekit devices in my house I like them very much and looking at that um you know they have homekit air condition listed and they have homekit accessories listed and I don't know if hit accessories refers to the same kind of products that I'm using today or something different and you know we classically think when we're talking about airon we talk about the thermostat because that's what controls the user interface to the aircon MH but they've listed air conditioners separately it out like that interesting you know I I don't know if they're talking about homekit compatible um window air conditioners or something else the the other thing that was really intriguing to me was that they've got they they they showed four home builders that they said are building homekit right into homes okay so now I've got to ring up a builder and start finding out what on Earth they're building yeah maybe maybe we should all buy new houses so we can get that in uh straight off the bat I I think we must yeah um another one that uh that jumped out at me and again it was a kind of small point in the the initial uh keynote and and State of the Union uh presentation but as we can see through the week the more and more information is being discovered and and uh learned about it in sessions is the new file system coming from Apple you know the real nerdy side of me can't wait to take a look at that and and see how it lines up against HFS and I'll be interested to hear what you have to to say about it because you know we've been watching Apple Explorer file systems for some time now they they had HFS and HFS plus and then they added journaling and then they brought over the fellow whose Name Escapes Me forgive me but he he's the fellow who was in charge of the the BFS file system at B okay right yeah I'm not aware of him actually and well I'll I'll find him in a moment but um there was also the Exploration with uh with ZFS for a while or ZFS as you'd say yeah yeah I mean I remember reading uh even as an Apple employee reading John Syracuse's uh monstrous Toms reviewing each version of uh 10 um and I know for a while he was a real um supporter that a new file system was needed I did see a photograph of him taken at dubdub um at the moment he found out that that a new file system had was actually arriving yeah and I I haven't seen that photo but he uh it was the end of an era when he stopped putting together those those toes of of summaries of the new operating systems it really was kind of freed up a little bit of time in my life but but uh I would much rather still had him around doing that yeah I I think it was Dominic Jim Polo who um went over to Apple to the file system okay I'm not not entirely positive but I think it that's correct um but there you know for for a while it looked as if we were going to get ZFS as the file system and uh and then we didn't yeah yeah Dominic jino is the uh person who developed the B file system for B operating system and he's currently at Apple right I mean the the Z f s news you know I think that was actually I was at Apple for 3 years and I think that was all being talked about before I started at Apple so I'm I'm familiar with those rumors that's for sure yeah so the the point of the new file system we may as well talk about it is um that everything is faster everything is more secure and it's a 64-bit file system so you can have a lot larger number of files I think the number begins and one of the although I can't it qu quintilian something like that yeah it's it's a very large number with with very and large capitalized the um but but one of the things that I think is interesting is is we know that Apple has a sincere focus on privacy and they they aren't afraid to express that and I believe this file system allows for individual file level encryption amazing amazing yeah I mean I've not finished reading about it but um in a nutshell I think that it's just a more modern file system is is automatically straight away going to be a lot more relevant a lot more um as you say performant and uh secure um yeah I think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out um I'm going to install on my test test machine uh Sierra just to have a poke around and see what that's capable of but just just the fact that it's based on the modern technology we have in computers that you know SS SSD drives um rather than HFS which has been around I think 18 or so years and was invented oh no it's it's longer than that longer than that okay okay yeah you know it's it's crazy isn't it that we've been using it for so long well well the original HFS came from 1985 wow okay and and HFS plus followed on much later um yeah I think that's 18 years ago that one so I think um to take advantage of of solid state storage there are a lot of things that the file system would have to do uh today that those older file systems were kind of coaxed into doing um so I think a fresh start is for me uh overdue and also I think quite uh a lot of work must have gone into it to get it to a position where it's actually um you know ready for a beta that's for sure yeah now one of the things that I've I've watched and was interested in but I'm somewhat concerned about was the uh the notion that Apple wants to move my old files into the cloud right there's there's uh and it's it's file system related but it's also cloud services related and and they mentioned that this was going to be a possibility that besides synchronizing files across everyone's desktops or or computers as were that the um the the old files would be taken to the cloud to reserve space on the laptop sure um you know if you if you've ever done any kind of it support or Mac help with any your family you'll know that more often than not the computers are you know kind of tight on space or they've got a lots of duplicate files or unused files hanging around and you're being generous yeah I I think one of the favorite times at least with with some of my family one of the favorite pastimes is to reorganize things try and regain a bit of space here and there you just you only have to look on the the charts in the Mac App Store to see that more often than not the top of the either the free or the pay chart is more often than not a an app that is there to help people try and regain space on their on their computers so for that to become a system level technology um you know it's it's only going to be better for the user in the end and I think that's that was one of the prevailing topics of of what was announced in the kyot is there was so much being done in these new versions of everything that that is just to make people's lives easier and to to have them spend the time on their computer in a in a fun way rather than carrying out administrative tasks or maintenance so let me ask what what really stood out to you what what spoke to you as one of the key things that came out of this keynote I think for me there's a there's a kind of seam running through all of the operating systems all four platforms but mainly iOS and and Macos uh were extensions are now going to be used to kind of widen the remit of of an app um you know you might think that the app store has been along for for several years now and apps perhaps over time can do enough but maybe reached a a kind of time where it's maybe plateaued a little bit in terms of the Technologies I mean of course Apple release new apis and Technologies every year um but for me this year with extensions being everywhere almost um whether that's providing an interface in in iMessage on iOS or inside of maps uh to provide driving directions and and those types of things for me uh that's just a real a real moment for app developers to to gain control of more of the operating system than than their kind of siloed app can do anyway um I think we'll be seeing some really cool stuff with this definitely yeah and and do you recommend that our listeners wait until the till the fall when things are released or or do you recommend that they become daring and participate in the the beta programs what's what's your take on that uh well I mean personally I would only ever install it on a test device because it is a a beta test uh version of the operating system some people I can understand um maybe can't wait um I took a look on Twitter late last night and there were a few people who uh perhaps had obtain the beta through um less reputable means uh maybe you know they've got friends to sign them into uh their developer account and got a hold of it that way um but they obviously hadn't seen the web page where you download it themselves where there's a big warning saying that you have to install xcode 8 on your Mac um if you're going to do the update through iTunes otherwise it won't work um so a lots of people complaining of the error that gives you when you don't do that um I think the easy way is to do it with the over the a update um absolutely um you know I have I'm looking enough to have a test device you know if people don't have test devices I think at this point if you do put it on your device it's you you have to understand that it is a work in progress and certain things are missing as as the release notes say and uh some things won't work but on the whole on my test device it's probably the most stable first beater of a of an iOS that I've ever seen really that's I mean good yeah given given the things that that have been flagged as known to be missing and known to be not working other than those things it's uh pretty neat I mean it looks great as well wow now one of the things that I I noticed in some of the release notes was that um or at least some of the coverage of some of the releas notes I should say is the idea that apple is pushing for https and current SSL cert certificates at web servers and and that it it occurs to me that one of the KnockOn effects of that is that if you're an application that goes out and pulls images from all over the Internet like a Twitter app or or another app that that does that kind of behavior that you're going to end up viewing necessarily um a lot of blank spots because Apple's pushing this encryption now sure um I mean and I should say the reason they're doing that is because they want for they they want for more secure Internet it's not because they're being mean AB no no of course not I mean it makes it makes absolute sense um this kind of Transport Security has been around for a while actually a couple of couple of years on uh on Macos or what we're now calling Macos anyway um so for it to come to iOS if that is the case then um it's about time really you know there are in the developers documentation you can read about um ways to configure that technology so it does give you access to certain um perhaps disables it for certain servers if you really need it to um so there are ways and means around that but to use it on the on the main part of your application is definitely a good thing you know and and secure certificates for servers now there are lots of initiatives uh to bring down the cost of those um especially for small developers there is a initiatives where you can essentially get those things for free now I I I know I promised that I wouldn't ambush with any questions but I I going to ask and you can tell me no sure um is is there an anecdote you can relate about your time at Apple and um you know some of the challenges that you faced there I I understand if the answer is no I can't talk about that but i' I'd like to hear if you've got one anecdotes um let me have a think and we'll come back to that but I I'll definitely give you an answer to that all right um what of of the keynote really really struck you what what really resonated with you I think the the bit that that resonated the most for me was um it started strong it started with for me the the platform that needed the most attention or needed the to to go off first which is uh watch OS definitely um some amazing changes in watch OS and uh I think for me as a as a an Apple watch user those changes are all the right Chang es to make my life with the watch easier and uh more performant simpler uh more familiar um with the the kind of interactions that have come across from IOS so I think that was the bit that really made me kind of knb my head and and kind of say finally yeah the uh I I've got an Apple Watch and I don't wear it very frequently um it it just wasn't sticky with me and I think was because the uh the the ID of notifications on the wrist is something that I can get through a pebble or an Intel basis or one of the others and and works just fine and the activity was good but good good yeah before the Apple watch came out did you did were you a regular watch wearer I'm interested to know uh mixed off and on um I I will go through bouts where I will wear a traditional mechanical wristwatch for um you know a couple of weeks and then switch to something else and I have a couple of Mechanicals that I rotate through I have uh I have two of the I have the original Pebble and the Pebble Steel and an Intel basis and the Intel basis was actually one of the best of them okay uh the the basis Peak is not a bad piece of Hardware uh very good heart rate measurement very good with notifications and especially being able to dismus all educate all all notifications quickly where if if you weren't aware of 3D touch and what that interaction is like on the watch um on the uh on the basis Peak it's just simply double tap the screen and it dismisses all of the notifications nice nice right with with the watch you act intentionally tap and then push harder and uh sure be interested to try out that you know the new uh the new mechanisms for for getting at that on on Apple watch I think you're going back a little bit you're almost the same as me and that uh you know I historically have worn um I don't know whether I'd call them mechanical watch quartz watches um traditional watches traditional watches um but with an analog face and uh you know that kind of um dance you have to do every month or two to to move the date on which is uh still what I do when I wear my old old style analog watches I have you know Scandinavian watch that I love to wear um and a Swiss watch that I love to wear and I still wear them every now and again um because they look so good um and I'm a stickler a good design so there we go yeah well you're going to have to send me pictures of your watches now well there yeah it's already on on my Instagram I think but uh happy to do so um yeah so um I think that's probably the or at least from the people I've talked to they're always the toughest nuts to crack in in in terms of watch usage or the people who have traditionally worn watches and and kind of fallen in love with those traditional watches which was definitely uh both of us by the SS of things and I think for me to to wear my Apple watch more than I do now would be um this new software and and the promises that come with that would definitely be uh difficult to say no to yeah one of the things that I noticed in the watch update was well there were two things that really caught my ear and one of them was that when they they showed sort of the app switching view of it it it looked I thought that I heard a reference to calling that dark which seemed unusual to me yeah I I heard the same thing so I mean I've actually not tried it yet because I only have one watch and I'm I'm not willing to put the the beta on there but um well it's an Aron effect you have to have I you have to have IOS 10 running on an a phone device and also so you have to have a spare phone and a spare watch yeah that's it so I'm going to try and dive into the simulator and see how far I can go with that um obviously the experience won't be quite as as nice but it at least might let let me take a look at uh those new features of the software yeah one of the things that I saw that that really caught my attention was the uh ability to view other people's activity Rings yeah great and and challenge yourselves right you know the the traditionally we've had that with the likes of Fitbit and job own up and up has really done a very good job of it uh one of one of the better jobs and I participated in those kinds of challenges and and most recently I had one where I had a job own up challenge going with some friends and I sort of dropped out of it when they fell off and and the idea of having the Rings going and having everyone's rings out there in addition to the the reminders to breathe and the reminders to to get up and move does does work for me it does resonate with me yeah I think that kind of social aspect of the watch and even uh the kind of social aspect to messages that's also kind of collaborative if you I don't know if you watch the the messages demo in I think it was the State of the Union uh platform state of Union Address you can I could send you a picture and you can modify that and send it back to me um so that kind of social collaboration um you know we talked about notes earlier on as well I think it's that's just Society these days you know we want to help each other out we want to um make each other yeah absolutely well people who listen to the podcast know that I'm a big fan of Apple pay and uh I I don't know you're you're an England so you you've got it for Oyster card and you've got it for some retailers but how widespread is it for you well it's it's pretty much everywhere because um even before Apple pay we had contactless payments um most banks uh would give you a a debit or a credit card with a chip embedded in the NFC chip um that would let you do these kind of contactless payments so already we were using those kind of payments Apple pay just kind of made that easier because there was no card anymore you just one device that you've got with you at all times then when the watch came along even easier um you know my wife loves to use her Apple watch to pay when she gets on public transport because she we've just had a baby so she's pussing pushing the pram around um the fact that she doesn't have to go into her bag or go into her pocket she can just swipe the watch uh to make that payment and get on the transport is a real time saer for her yeah one of the things that I was looking for and I was hoping to see but did not see was you know we saw when they were showing us the messages demo that you could use extensions and for example pay someone with square cash and in my experience you know I suppose in San Francisco and in San Jose in those areas the square cash has has a large amount of adoption and people don't mind doing it or they use venmo or things like that um I live in a part of America where that hasn't caught on yeah we still the big thing yeah PayPal of course is is is everywhere um Square I'm looking for Apple pay to beat PayPal I want to be able to send people transactions via messages using Apple pay absolutely that would be awesome um we're not there yet I don't know why Rome wasn't built in a day I don't think you know come on I I saw I saw a really interesting tweet actually about um you know somebody complained that maybe watch how it is with version 3 that's just been announced is maybe how it should have been uh when it was launched and uh Fraser Spears who's a Scottish guy he a real iPad Advocate and works in one of the schools up in Scotland that uh has one iPad per pupil he he came back with a really good Cedars I think it is okay yeah uh he came back with a really great remark in that um you know that's like expecting somebody to be born an adult uh which really made me laugh and it's the same thing yeah you know it would be it would be a great world if if watch OS came out as mature as it is with version 3 um on day one but that's just that's just not how software development works we we all expect that if you put nine women on a job you can have a child in one month yeah you know to to to Fraser's point to to M Mr Spear's point you know honeybees are born fully sized adults you know it's that's why can't iOS be done true and and actually the human uh human babies are are one of the most immature uh when they're born actually as well so um both ends of the spectrum covered off the yeah there there you have it Apple Insider listeners we have biology and genology on a on an Apple technology podcast so um you asked me earlier on about um a tale to tell I mean I think one of the one of the most fun tales and I do know this is true um but I don't really know where these these kind of stories start I mean I have firstand knowledge of of um certain people involved in the story but um this is to with the the box for the iPhone one of my old uh former colleagues and friends um Tom Crabtree who now runs a a design studio called manual creative in San Francisco he worked on the original box at Apple um as part of a small team and the story goes um that he designed an amazing looking box kind of like um monolith and then there was a second box designed which had a a lovely picture of the phone on top and and these boxes were shown to Steve Jobs and Steve looked at them both uh so the story goes and looked at this monolithic box and and proclaimed that it was the most beautiful box he'd ever seen uh which I'm I'm sure um he didn't say lightly and uh he said however I'm going to take this second box the one with the picture on the front because that shows the buyer exactly what they're getting um but now I think the sweet irony is that the the box for the six and the 6s um is pretty much uh that monolithic box although in white rather than black so I think that's kind of sweet irony that uh that beautiful box did actually come to exist yeah and I love it when those things do come true you know it's we don't always get it delivered on the first one like you're saying about the watch but if we get it eventually that's good enough absolutely well I want to thank you Matt very much for participating with me today can you tell me where people can find you on the internet what's Twitter what's your Instagram where should we look for those pictures of your watches absolutely um so you can find everything um my Twitter is ginger beard man uh which is only slightly embarrassing um but I've had it for so long I can't bear to change it and my web address is the same as well um and there's a whole bunch of links off there to medium where I'm currently uh trying to brush up my writing skills by writing about my thoughts on dubdub um and it talks about you know I'm up to now in my in my days after Apple um which is basically uh the same kind of things that I was doing whilst I was at Apple but I'm now doing them for for anybody who'd like to uh like me to work with them wonderful well thank you so much again this has been uh Matt sefon and Victor marks with the Apple Insider podcast thanks Victor cheers all right I'm gonna press so um welcome to the second portion of the Apple Insider podcast it's me Victor back with with Mikey Campbell Apple Insider editor what is going down everything no this is this is awesome because you know we've got Daniel Aaron dilder over at WWDC and he's attending the sessions and he tells me that it's it's like trying to drink from a fire hose that he is overwhelmed with how many cool things are going on so I hear yeah and it's it's you know he's he's having a hard time processing it all and one of the things that I noticed in the keynote was just how quickly things came out features came that were almost like throwaway lines right they just went through them blazingly fast I mentioned earlier when I was talking to Matt Sefton that that there was one one liner in the notes conversation where he where the where the presenter said oh and also notes are collaborative mhm yeah what you can have multiple people editing notes real time what the heck you know it's it's crazy but it kills Evernote which is awesome yeah I wish they brought that collaborative stuff to more uh iCloud apps though I know it's coming but I I I don't know look the collaboration in keynote and pages and numbers has always been a dumpster fire mhm it's been a tire fire at the landfill kind of bad yep they need to bring they need to bring decent iCloud integration to all their to all their first party stuff mopping the floor right now well you say that but my thought is this right if they've mastered how to do it for no notes then they've mastered how to do it for those other applications and simply need to bring it over and you expect they they mastered it I haven't used it have you tried out well I have not tried notes for iOS 10 yet because I have not yet updated a device of Mind iOS 10 and I and you really need to update to in order to collaborate right yeah I don't know maybe the uh service is not even up and running yet who knows yeah but they've said it and I want to believe it's going to work why do I want to believe it's going to work when when they've had other issues in the past because hop Springs Eternal Mikey indeed that's just how I feel about it what would what were some of the things that really struck you out of the whole keynote um it was interesting that they spent so much time on messages I know it's uh well that they said it's the most used uh first party app on iPhone um I believe that but it it seems like they're doing I mean there was a lot of interesting stuff especially a third party integration stuff uh was good I'm looking forward to that I I feel like that third party integration stuff is potentially the most viral way of getting your app seen ever because if if you look at the screenshot images right first of all they showed you the messages app store right the the list of things that work there yeah also when you when when you use a third-party extension for messages it puts in underneath whatever graphic or thing that it puts in from the you know blank name app and links to the app in the app store right yeah right so so if I send you an animated gif of your brain exploding for example you can tap on that link directly Bel beneath the animated image of your brain exploding and go get the same app and send me pictures of my animated brain exploding of course it always I it all depends on app Discovery in the I message app store as well right but but I'm what I'm saying is that by having that link there when someone uses one that fixes Discovery because you you've discovered it via someone else already using it and giving you the link where to go to get it that's kind of huge I agree I uh less huge are the uh full screen animations and uh message bubble things you don't like the uh you're not a fan of the Happy New Year I don't look forward to having my messages filled with animations maybe cuz I'm a kogan but I just don't I don't know it it feels not intrusive but I mean it's going to be very very animated I feel okay so so the way that this goes right is that and it wasn't it wasn't hidden or anything right many many parts of the keynote addressed users in China for example MH and replicating features available in other messaging apps and during that demonstration I was sitting with some people from China or or people who are Americans and speak Chinese and use WeChat all the time to talk to people back in in China and for every one of those features they said oh yeah just like WeChat oh yeah that does that's that's WeChat yeah WeChat does that and so that's what Apple's doing is is bringing over those kinds of features so that people in China will adopt messages yeah now I know you're Japanese so so it doesn't mean anything to you but I'm telling you that's that was the experience that I had sitting and watching the keynote with that kind of an audience yeah I mean Apple always does that though they always borrow quote unquote features from other stuff I mean they've and WWDC is traditionally a place where they unveil these borrowed features but um I don't know some of the stuff feels a little intrusive to me in messages at least some of the stuff is good though uh responding to other texts with um with those like kind of instant the the sort of like responses or yeah yeah that's going to save a lot of time and I do very much like the rich text or uh Rich data in line with the uh with the message uh string so for example you can view videos or you know other other other integrated asset graphical assets and stuff like that in line yeah which is uh also good cuz I hate leaving the app or switching between apps so it's good to see apple opening up all of their architectures so there's a lot of cross integration going on there is and you know it really felt interesting that they found a way to do that when they are so focused on privacy yeah you know they're they're doing something called differential privacy which allows these things to be communicated without giving up your information and uh I think I saw a quote earlier today from a university Professor who said it was simply outstanding it was the most interesting thing he's ever seen been done interesting being able to uh to let me just look that up it was it was the notion that he was um was was able to uh to to do that kind of sharing and still make these things happen um well I think uh there was an interesting session posted uh or the wwec session that they had on uh today so Wednesday talking about iOS security is kind of like a deep dive into all that kind of good stuff and how it forms a basis of what apple is doing on their end uh both on device and um through through their internet services to allow third party developers to have access to such deep Integrations it's kind of interesting you should probably check it out um let's see I'll try to find that link real quick but go on so the the um you we have a page on our site an article we wrote that uh a person named David silverberg wrote on our site about this differential privacy and said that Aon Roth you know the the Privacy researcher from upen came he said that they were groundbreaking efforts and um that that apple is the clear privacy leader and that was in the keynote and and it's that kind of thing where someone whose field is this says that what Apple's doing is pushing the boundaries forward is is reassuring you know it's it's why I don't use an Android device frequently if at all because I value that that kind of respect for the privacy and we were talking about that earlier with uh with with Matt about how that extends to everything whether it's the file system that that does file level encryption to you know this example in messages right well for reference the session was hosted by uh Ivan christic who's uh Apple's IOS security Guru um but yeah uh to the to your point of differential privacy is kind of uh it's kind of interesting I mean Apple's trying to work uh work out how to um obtain the same kind of information on Trends and uh a user Trends and um anonymized data uh all kinds of stuff that Google has you know been so good at uh accumulating of course they do it non anonymized um or very it's easy to accumulate it when it's not aned so I mean they're they're trying to match that technology or that level of insight with safe prot or so or what they say is is uh relatively safe um data Gathering like but as I've said before uh I'm not really I'm not one that is super concerned about companies knowing my habits or you know getting getting data it's not like I opt into stuff like that but uh I don't actively you don't concern yourself with this like some some users do yeah I mean if we really get down to it um I don't have a lot of sensitive data going back and forth across the web um well here's the thing right it's not that one piece is sensitive it's that all of this in aggregate explains a very clear picture of who you are yeah I don't care okay because for me I if I I'm I'm using the internet right I'm on I'm on a say a a Google a Google service I want that service to work as best as possible and um whether it's Google Apple uh Microsoft whoever I'm I'm a little more concerned because we know that uh former CIA and National Security Administration director Michael Hayden used to say that you know he what was his direct quote um he he said that uh that when he quoted uh he quoted uh Council Stuart Baker at a recent debate in John Hopkins University um you know he he raised the point saying we kill people based on metadata M and you know metadata is is this little bit of of data around your actual content data right the fact that you called someone for 30 minutes the fact that you searched for these terms on the internet for all of these kinds of things and that in aggregate forms a picture of who you are and what you do right and when when government agencies use that to Target you or to Target someone and find someone with a match for that kind of profile based on that metadata and yours aligns with it that's creepy scary so are we talking about I mean it's it's a whole it's a conflation of different issues I mean it's a it is is a conflation of different issues but it is that's that's that's kind of the thing is that you know if if Google services are subject to those kinds of searches um and and they had to harden their stuff so that they wouldn't be subject to man-in-the-middle attacks and kinds of things like SSL spoofing and and other stuff that that we found out was being done um even if it's innocuous data to you I am very much pleased that apple is taking this stance and trying to secure it what do you have to hide Victor why do you care none of your business what I do or don't have to hide it is all of my business um no it's not go fish the the government surveillance angle is obviously troubling well it's it's we've already seen it's a real problem not hypothetical problem right well I think it's more than a hypothetical problem but I I there're uh I don't know I don't know who does it fall on though are you going to um suspend your your own Creature Comforts and your own access to you know really really great technology just because of you know something that the government is perhaps sloppily implementing um I make choices about things like that and I don't have to worry about suspending my use of really great technology when there are technologies that are really great and work to preserve my privacy except that technology is is slow coming slow coming if you're sticking with one one platform you you uh you can pick good fast or cheap and and of those good fast or cheap you get two can be good and cheap but it's not going to be fast it can be good and fast but it won't be cheap what about cheap and fast it won't be any good indeed what was one of the other things in the keynote that you were interested in oh um I I didn't really get to take a second look at it but on the uh from what I remember from the live stream um which I was writing half the time so I didn't really get to pay close attention as I would have liked uh but all the the Apple watch improvements I I feel made the device usable for a greater number of people have you tried the beta for that yet I have yes I have what do you think of it it's good it's good it's much more intuitive and it's less Apple forcing stuff on you than you know offering you a platform for which you can do what things you want so for example a really good example is the side button is no longer the contacts button of course um personally I didn't I I think I probably used the context button like three times and that was within the first week of getting my watch just trying it out because messaging people on watch is pretty terrible yeah unless they have you know if they have a watch then it's kind of cool you can you know you send that um you can use digital touch and stuff but other than that uh first you know once the novelty of that wore off and a lot of my friends don't have watches so uh Apple watches that is so I I didn't really use the contacts button but now that it invokes the dock which is basically glances uh the app switching thing which is called doc which is strange to me yeah it's kind of like a it's like a different it's a it's like a live glances kind of thing or not live glances it's like a live yeah it is like a live glances so it's like a combination between an app glance and um and the full app right MH so it's like kind of like a compromise between those two so it it gives you the information uh like a snapshot of it but if you want more you tap into it and you just go straight into the app from the doc so I think that's much more useful than you know having a dedicated button for what was basically a single app the the messages app or messages SL phone combination app I mean do you use your your watch now with uh um do you use it a lot to communicate with people or do you use it mostly as a like as a remote viewing device or you know primarily use it as a well as activities you know the the Rings I I also use it to reply backed people so if if someone texts me or something like that and I can tap yes or no or or use the mic but using the mic and then having to say send his text instead of sending his audio is annoying pretty excruciating experience yeah it is uh but so I mean you're probably happy that they have the new activity faces cuz that looks pretty I mean that that also works very well yeah I was thinking the chronograph version of that is is my answer yeah that one's pretty neat I do like the uh I do like the full screen Rings though it's pretty uh it's pretty handy yes it is and it frees up space for uh other complications yeah which there are many of well I I want you to keep trying the watch and report back to me cuz I have not yet updated the watch I I did update the uh Apple TV oh I did not do that oh that was the easy one yeah is it is it worth it to up I mean not worth it is it are the are the new features uh significant enough uh for me to Trad into those Dangerous Waters not yet unless you have cable surfaces that you want to take advantage of single sign on for or some of these other things uh you know I I changed the interface to dark right away and I tried going for the new TV remote app but I don't think I got the TV remote app to work because I'm not on iOS 10 on the phone yet yeah right and and so I wasn't able to see the fancy new remote interface and use the phone as if it were a Siri remote but uh it's I I think it's one of those things where it's all of these things for the TV come together I mean it wasn't that strong an update in in some ways right but right well obviously it wasn't as flashy as the iOS announcements or the or the revamp of the whole watch yeah yeah but it's it was an easy one to do and I'm I'm thinking it's going to be a good one you know single Canon was the biggest uh roadblock there and the additional services on you know sling on on tvos is going to be a big deal right because that allows you to bring that many more channels in right right so are you a uh are you a Slinger not as yet but I'm gonna I'm thinking I will I think yeah it is they're slowly creeping towards that goal all they need now are the uh are the Partnerships MH one of the things I wanted to bring up here and and I don't know did you read this article that we published about um the accessibility address at at DDC one of the sessions with uh that Dan published um yeah with the um uh what's her name uh haben GMA haben yeah yes I did yeah that really struck me as as coming to the heart of what Apple's about you know and there were a couple of things about the keynote and this session that really got to me and one of them was was this session because Apple has always had accessibility as one of its strong points and it's reassuring to see that even in 2016 that they're they're bringing that forward and uh you know GMA talked about how Apple's work has really made the platform remove all the barriers for people they've got voice over for people who can't see the display Dynamic type for assisting users with low vision captioning in videos to make them accessible for Deaf users and assist of devices that expose the interfaces for digital brail mhm and I wasn't even honestly aware that digital brail was available in in iOS but apparently it is I think uh yeah well I did I don't know if you noticed if you watch closely in WWDC you can you can uh see a quick shot of her um she was in attendance at the keynote uh I saw the brail keyboard in the front yeah she was using a screen reader to um or and I suppose or obviously some sort of voice recognition dictation software connected to a screen reader to uh to listen to all the all the announcements on Monday which is kind of neat yeah um you know she she related an example an experience that is is really striking right she said that she was traveling to China and she discovered an unknown object in her hotel room that appeared to be a fruit and rather than tasting it because God knows what it is right she took a photo of it and sent it to a friend who told her the IDE the object is dragon fruit now dragon fruits well but she is she is vision impaired and hearing impaired right so she was only able to do that because the camera app is accessible with voiceover and without considering voiceover you know because because the developers could have easily said why does a person who's visual disabled need an accessible camera why why would a blind person take pictures but they did it anyway and it totally came in handy it totally worked theories on uh a date when Apple's going to use their new uh computer vision technology with accessibility I I am you know what I I know we are Apple Insider and I know we talk about rumors a lot and we're going to end up talking again about them because even though we were entirely wrong about all of the hardware announcements for WWDC oh D let's just say that let's say it you know we didn't have a display we didn't get a MacBook with Pro with a touch bar although we we saw hints of it in the release the the Beta release that points to it being there but we didn't get it right yeah we never really I'm not going to make the prediction about when we're going to get Vision enhancement kind of things from them yeah what I do want to mention though because this is one that really resonated with me I have been trying to to get my children to be interested in programming for a while o you know hour of code stuff they've done um they've done uh different apps like the human resource experience app that uh came out recently and was on the App Store featured um as ways of trying to interest them in doing this and to be honest they're not that interested so I don't push so hard but I like very much the idea of Swift playgrounds indeed yeah when I saw that announc I was like oh my God I want this now well not only do I want it cuz I want to learn it I love it for my kids and I like it for the idea that there it has challenges built into it and I like it for the idea that for years we've said you know people have said the the iPad is not just a Content viewing device it's a Content creation device right right and and apple said that the iPad is their vision of the future of computing so I'm I'm pretty much banking right here's my Rumor here's here's my expectation my expectation is that years from now the Mac goes away and that the kids raised on Swift playgrounds and creating code in the iPad will be using some future version of iPad as their primary Computing device it's kind of moving in well that yeah that's B that's bold yeah I'm saying that's bold and what's nice about it is I've set it to be years out so I can wait years to be wrong years potentially after I'm dead well just in case that could be shorter than years could be it's a little Grim never know never know what what parting thought do you have what's the biggest news out of this event that you see um I guess if I take a step back it's that Apple has returned WWDC to developers it's no longer the consumer event that has been for the past few years um they didn't announce any hardware a lot of the stuff that they did announce was very developer focused and they announced a lot of stuff that will very soon help devs create you know great products for for Consumer consumption um you can kind of see that with uh you know mainstream coverage uh slight disappointment at wwd's wwc's lack of announcements um but there you a lot of people misinterpret what this conference is all about and it's turns out it's actually for the developers yeah interesting that it's in the name wow um but yeah I'm really uh pleased that they've Tim Cooks gone back to the to Apple's roots with uh with this years's um with this year's WWDC I think that's the biggest takeaway uh I mean you can just see it's for an example how much time do they spend on Swift right at the end of the at the end of the uh 2hour long keynote they spent quite a bit of time and they also spent quite a bit of time just you know talking about Swift playgrounds uh time that previously would have been spent talking about some you know throwaway iOS feature that is kind of flashy you know raises excitement for the general consumer none of that none of that my biggest disappointment out of this whole thing was so small my biggest disappointment was that cred federi said one more thing and then didn't deliver he just happened to have to say something that he forgotten from the script yeah if you're going to invoke those magic three words you really have to invoke them yeah I I'll cut him a break since he carried the entire keynote well there is that yeah what you didn't like bows uh I thought it was a bit uh you like B getting up and doing the whole music demo it was kind of I mean it it really went with the with the dev Focus themee but it was kind of awkward and bit cringy it was a bit cringy it was a bit cringy it it was but not because of what of what she was doing it was because uh of expectations as to what the keynote is supposed to be no no no stop right there because let me lay it out for you no lay it out break it down you you can have Eddie Q doing his karaoke stick for one more year in a row or you can have both was the woman that Apple hired away from pepsic CO's music group where she was responsible for getting Beyonce into superv 47's halftime show yeah this is a woman who knows her music up and down backwards and forwards has relationships with artists and has pulled stuff off that you or I would not be able to do and other people in in her level you know well I take that back there there aren't that many people at her level yeah for her to present music to us in that way was freaking awesome and I want more of it she's a music nerd and she's fantastic it was it was great in if you have the if you go into WWDC keynote expecting uh what it what that conference is supposed to be it's a it's a not it's a uh it's a conference for nerds by nerds and it's great but if you're going nerd as you so she fits right in there and it was fantastic yeah it was a bit cring if you were going if you're looking at it you know from the standpoint of this is a product uh a product release kind of Celebration or uh uh something you know for consumers by Apple then it comes off a bit differently but I think if you if you view it in the right light it was good well that's my that's my take fantastic where can people find you on the internet Mikey Campbell uh at Twitter Mikey Campell 81 and on Apple Insider of course all right well that wraps it up for this week of the Apple Insider podcast and if you view Mikey Campbell in just the right light mhm it's not cringeworthy at all I'm Victor marks we'll see you next week on the Apple Insider podcastyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor and joining me today is Matt Sefton and Matt sefon is uh an an engineer who is a former technical evangelist for Apple and we're going to talk a little bit about what that means and what his perspective is on some of the news coming out of WWDC 2016 cool Matt go ahead and and introduce yourself properly because I've I've done a very terrible job of it I think that was fine Victor um yeah I mean my name is Matt um a former Apple techn technology evangelist and um Victor you just asked me a moment ago what exactly that means and um I was talking about the fact that over in the UK we don't really use the term evangelist uh or evangelism very much at all but I think it's a it's a bigger thing over in the states uh whenever I'd introduce myself in meetings it would always raise a smile or a giggle or two and uh get things off to a good start um as you mentioned Also earlier on uh the first evangelist at Apple was Guy kazaki um I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of years ago actually uh through a really nice guy and um I think most most teams within Apple will have access to an evangelist um we within the corporation we would focus on specific uh areas of the business so for me that was uh web Technologies advertising Technologies and related tools um but you know other people that I know may specialize in graphics Technologies or uh games technology etc etc and is that an an outward facing role to try and spread the word about those those sort of Technologies to people outside of apple or is it trying to to Champion them inside what what's uh it's both actually so um I mean the obvious meaning of the word is to is to you know sing and praise a particular thing so uh yeah I would take the the word of the technology and out to businesses agencies Brands and so on uh and also internally um for the teams that I supported internally I would use my expertise and the area of knowledge that that uh I was focusing on to help them do their jobs better as well and advertising is an interesting one because Apple had the IAD platform which is is now I think discontinued that's right well I think um part of it is yeah um I think the news broke in January about uh the network side of things being winding down uh around about now um maybe the end of the month um it goes on still in news and uh I imagine the the recently announced search ads product is go some way to uh be in a continuation of of what those guys were doing okay now let's get to it because the uh event and I rewatched the keynote yesterday afternoon was just a very large event it was pack P full of stuff let's unpack that a little bit for me will you cool yeah I mean for me uh it's a bit of a shame that I wasn't there this year I would have liked to have seen the new venue um to fit that many people in one room is something that I feel that has been needed for quite a while um that would have been nice to see um and then obviously the just the sheer amount of information they packed into those two hours and the pace at which uh they covered everything off uh for me was astonishing to to see um it just felt like they'd really hit their stride and uh yeah just brilliant brilliant to see it yeah and the pace of it was kind of Staggering for me because if you didn't pay attention you would miss these little onliners that went by and they were things like the fact that that the Notes application both for uh for iOS and for Mac OS I expect is now a collaborative application you can have multiple people working in a note at the same time yeah absolutely amazing you know and uh I wasn't aware of anything that was going to be talked about uh in the conference um but on the flip side I had to rewatch it to catch things like that because uh it passed me by on the first listen yeah there just one liner is thrown in there and by the way it's collaborative and and then he goes on to the next thing and and you I'm scratching my head saying how many of these things are in here you know missed that's it you know taking screenshots of of those slides where it has hundred different Technologies scattered around the the screen you know just to try and get a PE a quick glimpse of or a peek at uh at what might be coming up later on in the week oh yeah we we posted those screen grabs on the Apple Insider website and I was looking at them and trying to figure out because so one of the things that I'm I'm personally interested in is homekit um I have many homekit devices in my house I like them very much and looking at that um you know they have homekit air condition listed and they have homekit accessories listed and I don't know if hit accessories refers to the same kind of products that I'm using today or something different and you know we classically think when we're talking about airon we talk about the thermostat because that's what controls the user interface to the aircon MH but they've listed air conditioners separately it out like that interesting you know I I don't know if they're talking about homekit compatible um window air conditioners or something else the the other thing that was really intriguing to me was that they've got they they they showed four home builders that they said are building homekit right into homes okay so now I've got to ring up a builder and start finding out what on Earth they're building yeah maybe maybe we should all buy new houses so we can get that in uh straight off the bat I I think we must yeah um another one that uh that jumped out at me and again it was a kind of small point in the the initial uh keynote and and State of the Union uh presentation but as we can see through the week the more and more information is being discovered and and uh learned about it in sessions is the new file system coming from Apple you know the real nerdy side of me can't wait to take a look at that and and see how it lines up against HFS and I'll be interested to hear what you have to to say about it because you know we've been watching Apple Explorer file systems for some time now they they had HFS and HFS plus and then they added journaling and then they brought over the fellow whose Name Escapes Me forgive me but he he's the fellow who was in charge of the the BFS file system at B okay right yeah I'm not aware of him actually and well I'll I'll find him in a moment but um there was also the Exploration with uh with ZFS for a while or ZFS as you'd say yeah yeah I mean I remember reading uh even as an Apple employee reading John Syracuse's uh monstrous Toms reviewing each version of uh 10 um and I know for a while he was a real um supporter that a new file system was needed I did see a photograph of him taken at dubdub um at the moment he found out that that a new file system had was actually arriving yeah and I I haven't seen that photo but he uh it was the end of an era when he stopped putting together those those toes of of summaries of the new operating systems it really was kind of freed up a little bit of time in my life but but uh I would much rather still had him around doing that yeah I I think it was Dominic Jim Polo who um went over to Apple to the file system okay I'm not not entirely positive but I think it that's correct um but there you know for for a while it looked as if we were going to get ZFS as the file system and uh and then we didn't yeah yeah Dominic jino is the uh person who developed the B file system for B operating system and he's currently at Apple right I mean the the Z f s news you know I think that was actually I was at Apple for 3 years and I think that was all being talked about before I started at Apple so I'm I'm familiar with those rumors that's for sure yeah so the the point of the new file system we may as well talk about it is um that everything is faster everything is more secure and it's a 64-bit file system so you can have a lot larger number of files I think the number begins and one of the although I can't it qu quintilian something like that yeah it's it's a very large number with with very and large capitalized the um but but one of the things that I think is interesting is is we know that Apple has a sincere focus on privacy and they they aren't afraid to express that and I believe this file system allows for individual file level encryption amazing amazing yeah I mean I've not finished reading about it but um in a nutshell I think that it's just a more modern file system is is automatically straight away going to be a lot more relevant a lot more um as you say performant and uh secure um yeah I think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out um I'm going to install on my test test machine uh Sierra just to have a poke around and see what that's capable of but just just the fact that it's based on the modern technology we have in computers that you know SS SSD drives um rather than HFS which has been around I think 18 or so years and was invented oh no it's it's longer than that longer than that okay okay yeah you know it's it's crazy isn't it that we've been using it for so long well well the original HFS came from 1985 wow okay and and HFS plus followed on much later um yeah I think that's 18 years ago that one so I think um to take advantage of of solid state storage there are a lot of things that the file system would have to do uh today that those older file systems were kind of coaxed into doing um so I think a fresh start is for me uh overdue and also I think quite uh a lot of work must have gone into it to get it to a position where it's actually um you know ready for a beta that's for sure yeah now one of the things that I've I've watched and was interested in but I'm somewhat concerned about was the uh the notion that Apple wants to move my old files into the cloud right there's there's uh and it's it's file system related but it's also cloud services related and and they mentioned that this was going to be a possibility that besides synchronizing files across everyone's desktops or or computers as were that the um the the old files would be taken to the cloud to reserve space on the laptop sure um you know if you if you've ever done any kind of it support or Mac help with any your family you'll know that more often than not the computers are you know kind of tight on space or they've got a lots of duplicate files or unused files hanging around and you're being generous yeah I I think one of the favorite times at least with with some of my family one of the favorite pastimes is to reorganize things try and regain a bit of space here and there you just you only have to look on the the charts in the Mac App Store to see that more often than not the top of the either the free or the pay chart is more often than not a an app that is there to help people try and regain space on their on their computers so for that to become a system level technology um you know it's it's only going to be better for the user in the end and I think that's that was one of the prevailing topics of of what was announced in the kyot is there was so much being done in these new versions of everything that that is just to make people's lives easier and to to have them spend the time on their computer in a in a fun way rather than carrying out administrative tasks or maintenance so let me ask what what really stood out to you what what spoke to you as one of the key things that came out of this keynote I think for me there's a there's a kind of seam running through all of the operating systems all four platforms but mainly iOS and and Macos uh were extensions are now going to be used to kind of widen the remit of of an app um you know you might think that the app store has been along for for several years now and apps perhaps over time can do enough but maybe reached a a kind of time where it's maybe plateaued a little bit in terms of the Technologies I mean of course Apple release new apis and Technologies every year um but for me this year with extensions being everywhere almost um whether that's providing an interface in in iMessage on iOS or inside of maps uh to provide driving directions and and those types of things for me uh that's just a real a real moment for app developers to to gain control of more of the operating system than than their kind of siloed app can do anyway um I think we'll be seeing some really cool stuff with this definitely yeah and and do you recommend that our listeners wait until the till the fall when things are released or or do you recommend that they become daring and participate in the the beta programs what's what's your take on that uh well I mean personally I would only ever install it on a test device because it is a a beta test uh version of the operating system some people I can understand um maybe can't wait um I took a look on Twitter late last night and there were a few people who uh perhaps had obtain the beta through um less reputable means uh maybe you know they've got friends to sign them into uh their developer account and got a hold of it that way um but they obviously hadn't seen the web page where you download it themselves where there's a big warning saying that you have to install xcode 8 on your Mac um if you're going to do the update through iTunes otherwise it won't work um so a lots of people complaining of the error that gives you when you don't do that um I think the easy way is to do it with the over the a update um absolutely um you know I have I'm looking enough to have a test device you know if people don't have test devices I think at this point if you do put it on your device it's you you have to understand that it is a work in progress and certain things are missing as as the release notes say and uh some things won't work but on the whole on my test device it's probably the most stable first beater of a of an iOS that I've ever seen really that's I mean good yeah given given the things that that have been flagged as known to be missing and known to be not working other than those things it's uh pretty neat I mean it looks great as well wow now one of the things that I I noticed in some of the release notes was that um or at least some of the coverage of some of the releas notes I should say is the idea that apple is pushing for https and current SSL cert certificates at web servers and and that it it occurs to me that one of the KnockOn effects of that is that if you're an application that goes out and pulls images from all over the Internet like a Twitter app or or another app that that does that kind of behavior that you're going to end up viewing necessarily um a lot of blank spots because Apple's pushing this encryption now sure um I mean and I should say the reason they're doing that is because they want for they they want for more secure Internet it's not because they're being mean AB no no of course not I mean it makes it makes absolute sense um this kind of Transport Security has been around for a while actually a couple of couple of years on uh on Macos or what we're now calling Macos anyway um so for it to come to iOS if that is the case then um it's about time really you know there are in the developers documentation you can read about um ways to configure that technology so it does give you access to certain um perhaps disables it for certain servers if you really need it to um so there are ways and means around that but to use it on the on the main part of your application is definitely a good thing you know and and secure certificates for servers now there are lots of initiatives uh to bring down the cost of those um especially for small developers there is a initiatives where you can essentially get those things for free now I I I know I promised that I wouldn't ambush with any questions but I I going to ask and you can tell me no sure um is is there an anecdote you can relate about your time at Apple and um you know some of the challenges that you faced there I I understand if the answer is no I can't talk about that but i' I'd like to hear if you've got one anecdotes um let me have a think and we'll come back to that but I I'll definitely give you an answer to that all right um what of of the keynote really really struck you what what really resonated with you I think the the bit that that resonated the most for me was um it started strong it started with for me the the platform that needed the most attention or needed the to to go off first which is uh watch OS definitely um some amazing changes in watch OS and uh I think for me as a as a an Apple watch user those changes are all the right Chang es to make my life with the watch easier and uh more performant simpler uh more familiar um with the the kind of interactions that have come across from IOS so I think that was the bit that really made me kind of knb my head and and kind of say finally yeah the uh I I've got an Apple Watch and I don't wear it very frequently um it it just wasn't sticky with me and I think was because the uh the the ID of notifications on the wrist is something that I can get through a pebble or an Intel basis or one of the others and and works just fine and the activity was good but good good yeah before the Apple watch came out did you did were you a regular watch wearer I'm interested to know uh mixed off and on um I I will go through bouts where I will wear a traditional mechanical wristwatch for um you know a couple of weeks and then switch to something else and I have a couple of Mechanicals that I rotate through I have uh I have two of the I have the original Pebble and the Pebble Steel and an Intel basis and the Intel basis was actually one of the best of them okay uh the the basis Peak is not a bad piece of Hardware uh very good heart rate measurement very good with notifications and especially being able to dismus all educate all all notifications quickly where if if you weren't aware of 3D touch and what that interaction is like on the watch um on the uh on the basis Peak it's just simply double tap the screen and it dismisses all of the notifications nice nice right with with the watch you act intentionally tap and then push harder and uh sure be interested to try out that you know the new uh the new mechanisms for for getting at that on on Apple watch I think you're going back a little bit you're almost the same as me and that uh you know I historically have worn um I don't know whether I'd call them mechanical watch quartz watches um traditional watches traditional watches um but with an analog face and uh you know that kind of um dance you have to do every month or two to to move the date on which is uh still what I do when I wear my old old style analog watches I have you know Scandinavian watch that I love to wear um and a Swiss watch that I love to wear and I still wear them every now and again um because they look so good um and I'm a stickler a good design so there we go yeah well you're going to have to send me pictures of your watches now well there yeah it's already on on my Instagram I think but uh happy to do so um yeah so um I think that's probably the or at least from the people I've talked to they're always the toughest nuts to crack in in in terms of watch usage or the people who have traditionally worn watches and and kind of fallen in love with those traditional watches which was definitely uh both of us by the SS of things and I think for me to to wear my Apple watch more than I do now would be um this new software and and the promises that come with that would definitely be uh difficult to say no to yeah one of the things that I noticed in the watch update was well there were two things that really caught my ear and one of them was that when they they showed sort of the app switching view of it it it looked I thought that I heard a reference to calling that dark which seemed unusual to me yeah I I heard the same thing so I mean I've actually not tried it yet because I only have one watch and I'm I'm not willing to put the the beta on there but um well it's an Aron effect you have to have I you have to have IOS 10 running on an a phone device and also so you have to have a spare phone and a spare watch yeah that's it so I'm going to try and dive into the simulator and see how far I can go with that um obviously the experience won't be quite as as nice but it at least might let let me take a look at uh those new features of the software yeah one of the things that I saw that that really caught my attention was the uh ability to view other people's activity Rings yeah great and and challenge yourselves right you know the the traditionally we've had that with the likes of Fitbit and job own up and up has really done a very good job of it uh one of one of the better jobs and I participated in those kinds of challenges and and most recently I had one where I had a job own up challenge going with some friends and I sort of dropped out of it when they fell off and and the idea of having the Rings going and having everyone's rings out there in addition to the the reminders to breathe and the reminders to to get up and move does does work for me it does resonate with me yeah I think that kind of social aspect of the watch and even uh the kind of social aspect to messages that's also kind of collaborative if you I don't know if you watch the the messages demo in I think it was the State of the Union uh platform state of Union Address you can I could send you a picture and you can modify that and send it back to me um so that kind of social collaboration um you know we talked about notes earlier on as well I think it's that's just Society these days you know we want to help each other out we want to um make each other yeah absolutely well people who listen to the podcast know that I'm a big fan of Apple pay and uh I I don't know you're you're an England so you you've got it for Oyster card and you've got it for some retailers but how widespread is it for you well it's it's pretty much everywhere because um even before Apple pay we had contactless payments um most banks uh would give you a a debit or a credit card with a chip embedded in the NFC chip um that would let you do these kind of contactless payments so already we were using those kind of payments Apple pay just kind of made that easier because there was no card anymore you just one device that you've got with you at all times then when the watch came along even easier um you know my wife loves to use her Apple watch to pay when she gets on public transport because she we've just had a baby so she's pussing pushing the pram around um the fact that she doesn't have to go into her bag or go into her pocket she can just swipe the watch uh to make that payment and get on the transport is a real time saer for her yeah one of the things that I was looking for and I was hoping to see but did not see was you know we saw when they were showing us the messages demo that you could use extensions and for example pay someone with square cash and in my experience you know I suppose in San Francisco and in San Jose in those areas the square cash has has a large amount of adoption and people don't mind doing it or they use venmo or things like that um I live in a part of America where that hasn't caught on yeah we still the big thing yeah PayPal of course is is is everywhere um Square I'm looking for Apple pay to beat PayPal I want to be able to send people transactions via messages using Apple pay absolutely that would be awesome um we're not there yet I don't know why Rome wasn't built in a day I don't think you know come on I I saw I saw a really interesting tweet actually about um you know somebody complained that maybe watch how it is with version 3 that's just been announced is maybe how it should have been uh when it was launched and uh Fraser Spears who's a Scottish guy he a real iPad Advocate and works in one of the schools up in Scotland that uh has one iPad per pupil he he came back with a really good Cedars I think it is okay yeah uh he came back with a really great remark in that um you know that's like expecting somebody to be born an adult uh which really made me laugh and it's the same thing yeah you know it would be it would be a great world if if watch OS came out as mature as it is with version 3 um on day one but that's just that's just not how software development works we we all expect that if you put nine women on a job you can have a child in one month yeah you know to to to Fraser's point to to M Mr Spear's point you know honeybees are born fully sized adults you know it's that's why can't iOS be done true and and actually the human uh human babies are are one of the most immature uh when they're born actually as well so um both ends of the spectrum covered off the yeah there there you have it Apple Insider listeners we have biology and genology on a on an Apple technology podcast so um you asked me earlier on about um a tale to tell I mean I think one of the one of the most fun tales and I do know this is true um but I don't really know where these these kind of stories start I mean I have firstand knowledge of of um certain people involved in the story but um this is to with the the box for the iPhone one of my old uh former colleagues and friends um Tom Crabtree who now runs a a design studio called manual creative in San Francisco he worked on the original box at Apple um as part of a small team and the story goes um that he designed an amazing looking box kind of like um monolith and then there was a second box designed which had a a lovely picture of the phone on top and and these boxes were shown to Steve Jobs and Steve looked at them both uh so the story goes and looked at this monolithic box and and proclaimed that it was the most beautiful box he'd ever seen uh which I'm I'm sure um he didn't say lightly and uh he said however I'm going to take this second box the one with the picture on the front because that shows the buyer exactly what they're getting um but now I think the sweet irony is that the the box for the six and the 6s um is pretty much uh that monolithic box although in white rather than black so I think that's kind of sweet irony that uh that beautiful box did actually come to exist yeah and I love it when those things do come true you know it's we don't always get it delivered on the first one like you're saying about the watch but if we get it eventually that's good enough absolutely well I want to thank you Matt very much for participating with me today can you tell me where people can find you on the internet what's Twitter what's your Instagram where should we look for those pictures of your watches absolutely um so you can find everything um my Twitter is ginger beard man uh which is only slightly embarrassing um but I've had it for so long I can't bear to change it and my web address is the same as well um and there's a whole bunch of links off there to medium where I'm currently uh trying to brush up my writing skills by writing about my thoughts on dubdub um and it talks about you know I'm up to now in my in my days after Apple um which is basically uh the same kind of things that I was doing whilst I was at Apple but I'm now doing them for for anybody who'd like to uh like me to work with them wonderful well thank you so much again this has been uh Matt sefon and Victor marks with the Apple Insider podcast thanks Victor cheers all right I'm gonna press so um welcome to the second portion of the Apple Insider podcast it's me Victor back with with Mikey Campbell Apple Insider editor what is going down everything no this is this is awesome because you know we've got Daniel Aaron dilder over at WWDC and he's attending the sessions and he tells me that it's it's like trying to drink from a fire hose that he is overwhelmed with how many cool things are going on so I hear yeah and it's it's you know he's he's having a hard time processing it all and one of the things that I noticed in the keynote was just how quickly things came out features came that were almost like throwaway lines right they just went through them blazingly fast I mentioned earlier when I was talking to Matt Sefton that that there was one one liner in the notes conversation where he where the where the presenter said oh and also notes are collaborative mhm yeah what you can have multiple people editing notes real time what the heck you know it's it's crazy but it kills Evernote which is awesome yeah I wish they brought that collaborative stuff to more uh iCloud apps though I know it's coming but I I I don't know look the collaboration in keynote and pages and numbers has always been a dumpster fire mhm it's been a tire fire at the landfill kind of bad yep they need to bring they need to bring decent iCloud integration to all their to all their first party stuff mopping the floor right now well you say that but my thought is this right if they've mastered how to do it for no notes then they've mastered how to do it for those other applications and simply need to bring it over and you expect they they mastered it I haven't used it have you tried out well I have not tried notes for iOS 10 yet because I have not yet updated a device of Mind iOS 10 and I and you really need to update to in order to collaborate right yeah I don't know maybe the uh service is not even up and running yet who knows yeah but they've said it and I want to believe it's going to work why do I want to believe it's going to work when when they've had other issues in the past because hop Springs Eternal Mikey indeed that's just how I feel about it what would what were some of the things that really struck you out of the whole keynote um it was interesting that they spent so much time on messages I know it's uh well that they said it's the most used uh first party app on iPhone um I believe that but it it seems like they're doing I mean there was a lot of interesting stuff especially a third party integration stuff uh was good I'm looking forward to that I I feel like that third party integration stuff is potentially the most viral way of getting your app seen ever because if if you look at the screenshot images right first of all they showed you the messages app store right the the list of things that work there yeah also when you when when you use a third-party extension for messages it puts in underneath whatever graphic or thing that it puts in from the you know blank name app and links to the app in the app store right yeah right so so if I send you an animated gif of your brain exploding for example you can tap on that link directly Bel beneath the animated image of your brain exploding and go get the same app and send me pictures of my animated brain exploding of course it always I it all depends on app Discovery in the I message app store as well right but but I'm what I'm saying is that by having that link there when someone uses one that fixes Discovery because you you've discovered it via someone else already using it and giving you the link where to go to get it that's kind of huge I agree I uh less huge are the uh full screen animations and uh message bubble things you don't like the uh you're not a fan of the Happy New Year I don't look forward to having my messages filled with animations maybe cuz I'm a kogan but I just don't I don't know it it feels not intrusive but I mean it's going to be very very animated I feel okay so so the way that this goes right is that and it wasn't it wasn't hidden or anything right many many parts of the keynote addressed users in China for example MH and replicating features available in other messaging apps and during that demonstration I was sitting with some people from China or or people who are Americans and speak Chinese and use WeChat all the time to talk to people back in in China and for every one of those features they said oh yeah just like WeChat oh yeah that does that's that's WeChat yeah WeChat does that and so that's what Apple's doing is is bringing over those kinds of features so that people in China will adopt messages yeah now I know you're Japanese so so it doesn't mean anything to you but I'm telling you that's that was the experience that I had sitting and watching the keynote with that kind of an audience yeah I mean Apple always does that though they always borrow quote unquote features from other stuff I mean they've and WWDC is traditionally a place where they unveil these borrowed features but um I don't know some of the stuff feels a little intrusive to me in messages at least some of the stuff is good though uh responding to other texts with um with those like kind of instant the the sort of like responses or yeah yeah that's going to save a lot of time and I do very much like the rich text or uh Rich data in line with the uh with the message uh string so for example you can view videos or you know other other other integrated asset graphical assets and stuff like that in line yeah which is uh also good cuz I hate leaving the app or switching between apps so it's good to see apple opening up all of their architectures so there's a lot of cross integration going on there is and you know it really felt interesting that they found a way to do that when they are so focused on privacy yeah you know they're they're doing something called differential privacy which allows these things to be communicated without giving up your information and uh I think I saw a quote earlier today from a university Professor who said it was simply outstanding it was the most interesting thing he's ever seen been done interesting being able to uh to let me just look that up it was it was the notion that he was um was was able to uh to to do that kind of sharing and still make these things happen um well I think uh there was an interesting session posted uh or the wwec session that they had on uh today so Wednesday talking about iOS security is kind of like a deep dive into all that kind of good stuff and how it forms a basis of what apple is doing on their end uh both on device and um through through their internet services to allow third party developers to have access to such deep Integrations it's kind of interesting you should probably check it out um let's see I'll try to find that link real quick but go on so the the um you we have a page on our site an article we wrote that uh a person named David silverberg wrote on our site about this differential privacy and said that Aon Roth you know the the Privacy researcher from upen came he said that they were groundbreaking efforts and um that that apple is the clear privacy leader and that was in the keynote and and it's that kind of thing where someone whose field is this says that what Apple's doing is pushing the boundaries forward is is reassuring you know it's it's why I don't use an Android device frequently if at all because I value that that kind of respect for the privacy and we were talking about that earlier with uh with with Matt about how that extends to everything whether it's the file system that that does file level encryption to you know this example in messages right well for reference the session was hosted by uh Ivan christic who's uh Apple's IOS security Guru um but yeah uh to the to your point of differential privacy is kind of uh it's kind of interesting I mean Apple's trying to work uh work out how to um obtain the same kind of information on Trends and uh a user Trends and um anonymized data uh all kinds of stuff that Google has you know been so good at uh accumulating of course they do it non anonymized um or very it's easy to accumulate it when it's not aned so I mean they're they're trying to match that technology or that level of insight with safe prot or so or what they say is is uh relatively safe um data Gathering like but as I've said before uh I'm not really I'm not one that is super concerned about companies knowing my habits or you know getting getting data it's not like I opt into stuff like that but uh I don't actively you don't concern yourself with this like some some users do yeah I mean if we really get down to it um I don't have a lot of sensitive data going back and forth across the web um well here's the thing right it's not that one piece is sensitive it's that all of this in aggregate explains a very clear picture of who you are yeah I don't care okay because for me I if I I'm I'm using the internet right I'm on I'm on a say a a Google a Google service I want that service to work as best as possible and um whether it's Google Apple uh Microsoft whoever I'm I'm a little more concerned because we know that uh former CIA and National Security Administration director Michael Hayden used to say that you know he what was his direct quote um he he said that uh that when he quoted uh he quoted uh Council Stuart Baker at a recent debate in John Hopkins University um you know he he raised the point saying we kill people based on metadata M and you know metadata is is this little bit of of data around your actual content data right the fact that you called someone for 30 minutes the fact that you searched for these terms on the internet for all of these kinds of things and that in aggregate forms a picture of who you are and what you do right and when when government agencies use that to Target you or to Target someone and find someone with a match for that kind of profile based on that metadata and yours aligns with it that's creepy scary so are we talking about I mean it's it's a whole it's a conflation of different issues I mean it's a it is is a conflation of different issues but it is that's that's that's kind of the thing is that you know if if Google services are subject to those kinds of searches um and and they had to harden their stuff so that they wouldn't be subject to man-in-the-middle attacks and kinds of things like SSL spoofing and and other stuff that that we found out was being done um even if it's innocuous data to you I am very much pleased that apple is taking this stance and trying to secure it what do you have to hide Victor why do you care none of your business what I do or don't have to hide it is all of my business um no it's not go fish the the government surveillance angle is obviously troubling well it's it's we've already seen it's a real problem not hypothetical problem right well I think it's more than a hypothetical problem but I I there're uh I don't know I don't know who does it fall on though are you going to um suspend your your own Creature Comforts and your own access to you know really really great technology just because of you know something that the government is perhaps sloppily implementing um I make choices about things like that and I don't have to worry about suspending my use of really great technology when there are technologies that are really great and work to preserve my privacy except that technology is is slow coming slow coming if you're sticking with one one platform you you uh you can pick good fast or cheap and and of those good fast or cheap you get two can be good and cheap but it's not going to be fast it can be good and fast but it won't be cheap what about cheap and fast it won't be any good indeed what was one of the other things in the keynote that you were interested in oh um I I didn't really get to take a second look at it but on the uh from what I remember from the live stream um which I was writing half the time so I didn't really get to pay close attention as I would have liked uh but all the the Apple watch improvements I I feel made the device usable for a greater number of people have you tried the beta for that yet I have yes I have what do you think of it it's good it's good it's much more intuitive and it's less Apple forcing stuff on you than you know offering you a platform for which you can do what things you want so for example a really good example is the side button is no longer the contacts button of course um personally I didn't I I think I probably used the context button like three times and that was within the first week of getting my watch just trying it out because messaging people on watch is pretty terrible yeah unless they have you know if they have a watch then it's kind of cool you can you know you send that um you can use digital touch and stuff but other than that uh first you know once the novelty of that wore off and a lot of my friends don't have watches so uh Apple watches that is so I I didn't really use the contacts button but now that it invokes the dock which is basically glances uh the app switching thing which is called doc which is strange to me yeah it's kind of like a it's like a different it's a it's like a live glances kind of thing or not live glances it's like a live yeah it is like a live glances so it's like a combination between an app glance and um and the full app right MH so it's like kind of like a compromise between those two so it it gives you the information uh like a snapshot of it but if you want more you tap into it and you just go straight into the app from the doc so I think that's much more useful than you know having a dedicated button for what was basically a single app the the messages app or messages SL phone combination app I mean do you use your your watch now with uh um do you use it a lot to communicate with people or do you use it mostly as a like as a remote viewing device or you know primarily use it as a well as activities you know the the Rings I I also use it to reply backed people so if if someone texts me or something like that and I can tap yes or no or or use the mic but using the mic and then having to say send his text instead of sending his audio is annoying pretty excruciating experience yeah it is uh but so I mean you're probably happy that they have the new activity faces cuz that looks pretty I mean that that also works very well yeah I was thinking the chronograph version of that is is my answer yeah that one's pretty neat I do like the uh I do like the full screen Rings though it's pretty uh it's pretty handy yes it is and it frees up space for uh other complications yeah which there are many of well I I want you to keep trying the watch and report back to me cuz I have not yet updated the watch I I did update the uh Apple TV oh I did not do that oh that was the easy one yeah is it is it worth it to up I mean not worth it is it are the are the new features uh significant enough uh for me to Trad into those Dangerous Waters not yet unless you have cable surfaces that you want to take advantage of single sign on for or some of these other things uh you know I I changed the interface to dark right away and I tried going for the new TV remote app but I don't think I got the TV remote app to work because I'm not on iOS 10 on the phone yet yeah right and and so I wasn't able to see the fancy new remote interface and use the phone as if it were a Siri remote but uh it's I I think it's one of those things where it's all of these things for the TV come together I mean it wasn't that strong an update in in some ways right but right well obviously it wasn't as flashy as the iOS announcements or the or the revamp of the whole watch yeah yeah but it's it was an easy one to do and I'm I'm thinking it's going to be a good one you know single Canon was the biggest uh roadblock there and the additional services on you know sling on on tvos is going to be a big deal right because that allows you to bring that many more channels in right right so are you a uh are you a Slinger not as yet but I'm gonna I'm thinking I will I think yeah it is they're slowly creeping towards that goal all they need now are the uh are the Partnerships MH one of the things I wanted to bring up here and and I don't know did you read this article that we published about um the accessibility address at at DDC one of the sessions with uh that Dan published um yeah with the um uh what's her name uh haben GMA haben yeah yes I did yeah that really struck me as as coming to the heart of what Apple's about you know and there were a couple of things about the keynote and this session that really got to me and one of them was was this session because Apple has always had accessibility as one of its strong points and it's reassuring to see that even in 2016 that they're they're bringing that forward and uh you know GMA talked about how Apple's work has really made the platform remove all the barriers for people they've got voice over for people who can't see the display Dynamic type for assisting users with low vision captioning in videos to make them accessible for Deaf users and assist of devices that expose the interfaces for digital brail mhm and I wasn't even honestly aware that digital brail was available in in iOS but apparently it is I think uh yeah well I did I don't know if you noticed if you watch closely in WWDC you can you can uh see a quick shot of her um she was in attendance at the keynote uh I saw the brail keyboard in the front yeah she was using a screen reader to um or and I suppose or obviously some sort of voice recognition dictation software connected to a screen reader to uh to listen to all the all the announcements on Monday which is kind of neat yeah um you know she she related an example an experience that is is really striking right she said that she was traveling to China and she discovered an unknown object in her hotel room that appeared to be a fruit and rather than tasting it because God knows what it is right she took a photo of it and sent it to a friend who told her the IDE the object is dragon fruit now dragon fruits well but she is she is vision impaired and hearing impaired right so she was only able to do that because the camera app is accessible with voiceover and without considering voiceover you know because because the developers could have easily said why does a person who's visual disabled need an accessible camera why why would a blind person take pictures but they did it anyway and it totally came in handy it totally worked theories on uh a date when Apple's going to use their new uh computer vision technology with accessibility I I am you know what I I know we are Apple Insider and I know we talk about rumors a lot and we're going to end up talking again about them because even though we were entirely wrong about all of the hardware announcements for WWDC oh D let's just say that let's say it you know we didn't have a display we didn't get a MacBook with Pro with a touch bar although we we saw hints of it in the release the the Beta release that points to it being there but we didn't get it right yeah we never really I'm not going to make the prediction about when we're going to get Vision enhancement kind of things from them yeah what I do want to mention though because this is one that really resonated with me I have been trying to to get my children to be interested in programming for a while o you know hour of code stuff they've done um they've done uh different apps like the human resource experience app that uh came out recently and was on the App Store featured um as ways of trying to interest them in doing this and to be honest they're not that interested so I don't push so hard but I like very much the idea of Swift playgrounds indeed yeah when I saw that announc I was like oh my God I want this now well not only do I want it cuz I want to learn it I love it for my kids and I like it for the idea that there it has challenges built into it and I like it for the idea that for years we've said you know people have said the the iPad is not just a Content viewing device it's a Content creation device right right and and apple said that the iPad is their vision of the future of computing so I'm I'm pretty much banking right here's my Rumor here's here's my expectation my expectation is that years from now the Mac goes away and that the kids raised on Swift playgrounds and creating code in the iPad will be using some future version of iPad as their primary Computing device it's kind of moving in well that yeah that's B that's bold yeah I'm saying that's bold and what's nice about it is I've set it to be years out so I can wait years to be wrong years potentially after I'm dead well just in case that could be shorter than years could be it's a little Grim never know never know what what parting thought do you have what's the biggest news out of this event that you see um I guess if I take a step back it's that Apple has returned WWDC to developers it's no longer the consumer event that has been for the past few years um they didn't announce any hardware a lot of the stuff that they did announce was very developer focused and they announced a lot of stuff that will very soon help devs create you know great products for for Consumer consumption um you can kind of see that with uh you know mainstream coverage uh slight disappointment at wwd's wwc's lack of announcements um but there you a lot of people misinterpret what this conference is all about and it's turns out it's actually for the developers yeah interesting that it's in the name wow um but yeah I'm really uh pleased that they've Tim Cooks gone back to the to Apple's roots with uh with this years's um with this year's WWDC I think that's the biggest takeaway uh I mean you can just see it's for an example how much time do they spend on Swift right at the end of the at the end of the uh 2hour long keynote they spent quite a bit of time and they also spent quite a bit of time just you know talking about Swift playgrounds uh time that previously would have been spent talking about some you know throwaway iOS feature that is kind of flashy you know raises excitement for the general consumer none of that none of that my biggest disappointment out of this whole thing was so small my biggest disappointment was that cred federi said one more thing and then didn't deliver he just happened to have to say something that he forgotten from the script yeah if you're going to invoke those magic three words you really have to invoke them yeah I I'll cut him a break since he carried the entire keynote well there is that yeah what you didn't like bows uh I thought it was a bit uh you like B getting up and doing the whole music demo it was kind of I mean it it really went with the with the dev Focus themee but it was kind of awkward and bit cringy it was a bit cringy it was a bit cringy it it was but not because of what of what she was doing it was because uh of expectations as to what the keynote is supposed to be no no no stop right there because let me lay it out for you no lay it out break it down you you can have Eddie Q doing his karaoke stick for one more year in a row or you can have both was the woman that Apple hired away from pepsic CO's music group where she was responsible for getting Beyonce into superv 47's halftime show yeah this is a woman who knows her music up and down backwards and forwards has relationships with artists and has pulled stuff off that you or I would not be able to do and other people in in her level you know well I take that back there there aren't that many people at her level yeah for her to present music to us in that way was freaking awesome and I want more of it she's a music nerd and she's fantastic it was it was great in if you have the if you go into WWDC keynote expecting uh what it what that conference is supposed to be it's a it's a not it's a uh it's a conference for nerds by nerds and it's great but if you're going nerd as you so she fits right in there and it was fantastic yeah it was a bit cring if you were going if you're looking at it you know from the standpoint of this is a product uh a product release kind of Celebration or uh uh something you know for consumers by Apple then it comes off a bit differently but I think if you if you view it in the right light it was good well that's my that's my take fantastic where can people find you on the internet Mikey Campbell uh at Twitter Mikey Campell 81 and on Apple Insider of course all right well that wraps it up for this week of the Apple Insider podcast and if you view Mikey Campbell in just the right light mhm it's not cringeworthy at all I'm Victor marks we'll see you next week on the Apple Insider podcast\n"