We wanted to have some association with Apple ecosystem because uh we we wanted our apps and uh company name to be findable for uh uh Apple in apple ecosystem so usually long time ago when you were looking for an app you would usually add like uh some app name or what what it does for Mac so uh it was a logical thing to add uh something like this in the naming

it was challenging and because for example for macpo it was very challenging to get a trademark uh but but we got it uh for climma we still don't have a trademark even after 15 16 years on the market bizarre isn't it the trademarking system I do not understand it at all but I get the why Mac but poor PW as as in a cat kind of poor what does it stand for

so long time ago the operating systems were named after different cats like Li M Li pther Etc so this was like logical addition to it that makes sense oh I love I love the well the the it's a name like setup I mean you know it means a set of apps but you don't think of that that's its name and macort is is a name like you don't think of brro and where that came from

it just it is it's like um eBay uh they didn't want to call it that but they settled on some sort of man thing and now it's the perfect name so if you created something that's um risen above its origins and become your identity your brand I love that but yeah as I understand it as well

as developing setup and all of this stuff you also have a rather spectacular collection of Apple devices about po have I got that right or am I totally wrong uh yes you are correct uh we uh basically have uh Apple device ever developed except the Apple uh the first the first Apple one all right I've been trying to to get to get that on the auctions but the the price went too high like $7,000 per for this device and there is like only 700

I think of them in in existence so it's a quite rare beast thing is you say you run a hugely successful company it's very big and I can say even if you had no interest in software at all you could be interested in the business and it could be your passion but you say something like that about the collection

and I think you really are a Mac guy here you are an Apple guy at heart aren't you uh yes I am uh well basically because it is my passion I I think that my career my life journey is where well connected to Apple because when I was a student I was once uh introduced to Apple and I stayed with Apple after that for my lifetime

uh so I think this company the philosophy the Steve Jobs example uh it really affected my way of life my business decisions and and the company so I'm very grateful to Apple for for being here for for the humanity nice nice word but you said that Steve Jobs as an inspiration for it what are the kind of things that you feel he brought you and us through Apple

what's helped you in that way well this the main thing I think is the approach to how they build how they build products uh he's thinking about the design of the products it's not only the way it looks it it must look great but only uh uh the way but also the way how they work so it really goes together the UI and the uix and uh

it's not only about the software but it's the whole user experience from know first opening the the the Mac when they bought it to uh installing uninstalling some apps and using the whole ecosystem so it's really amazing and I think many companies can learn from that how to make their products better uh because unfortunately over time uh

some profits becomes the priority or some rapid uh uh product changes become the priority and they are forgetting about the user experience which is for is said well listen I mean I could ask you questions about that I ask question about everything all day but I need to remember as well you are a developer so you have to go do some developing and you've only just got back haven't

you from Apple p so thank you very much after a very long flight for coming on the Apple Insider podcast deeply grateful for having you on here thanks a lot thank you so much for the invitation happy to be here remember this even more on Monday with homekit Insider which we'll be looking at all the the home announcements from wwc and then Wes and I will be back next Friday by which time ah

we'll have nothing left to talk about at all I think we'll find something thank you very much for listening speak to you next time

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enhello welcome to a special extra apple and cider episode on William Gallagher and if you've already heard yesterday's regular edition you'll know that Wes hot and I have been trying to find a developer to give just the right perspective on WWDC and you'll know that we found exactly the right one to ask as well is Alexander cosan and he's the founder of macp which which has been an apple Insider sponsor before and Mac poor it's done uh clean my Mac it's a setup it's done clean my iPhone all three things I use myself and that would be enough that's three major apps this man is responsible for and macp has been developing Apple apps since around 2008 uh he was at Apple Park this week yeah these are all the what more reason could you possibly have to talk to him but there is one cuz remember setup setup is one subscription service that gets you full use of more than 200 Mac apps so Alexander has to know about well he has to think about what the opportunities what the challenges are that Apple's new apis new system new features are offering him as a developer but also 200 other developers so Alexander just perfect thank you very much for coming on to the Apple Insider podcast hi William it is a great honor to be here thank you for the invitation I'd love to share all of the updates brilliant there's so much to ask you but I've got to start with just a set the scene for us actually cuz you were at Apple Park the rest of us were all watching the keynote at home I presume they showed you the video in the Steve Jobs theater is that what it was like uh yeah actually was my first time at Apple Park and before that I was in other uh W disas like 10 10 times before maybe uh but this is the first time in Apple Park so it was really exciting to be there for for the first time yeah so at first they they met every developer at their own infinity loop campus um there was a registration and a small party for all of the uh developers and and press uh so it was like one experience and the next day there was like this big event in the Apple Park and they also allowed visitors inside their territory uh inside the loop uh where there was this park this Pond like very nice area so I was really impressed I have this image uh that you walk around Apple Park and there's um uh Tim Cook and Craig F Ricki jogging around the whole Loop all the time well I haven't seen Tim Tim Cook there but I've seen Sam Alman which is a big star as well yes he might come up again as a topic um before we get to the actual thing of the details of what you've seen um you got to see the same keynote that we did but I think we forget the WWDC is a weekl long Extravaganza really with at least dozens if not a hundred or more sessions that are really really specific in that time I presume Apple gave out far more detail than he could ever have crammed into the keynote how do you approach that as a developer how do you decide which sessions to go to and how does it all work for you uh yeah so frankly it was not the whole week it was only uh three days uh but only the first day was the keynote and the State of the Union presentation and afterwards there were a limited number of uh uh labs and one to one to one sessions with Apple developers and Engineers uh so it was very limited in time comparing to the previous dou wdcs that were uh before covid and and the reason the Apple guys explained us is that right now they have an opportunity to uh reach so many new potential developers like tens of thousands of them uh versus when they visit uh and directly the WWDC event and have much longer sessions uh so and they prefer this format because uh it's uh preedited it it's like filtered content that you already receive uh like very beautiful wrapping and all of the uh online uh videos that you can watch online and they prefer this format because for them it's uh much more I would say uh concentrated to to present the developers okay um I knew about the online access to those I've watched a few of them over the last couple of years um does that mean so for you you you had a certain you saw the keynote you had a certain amount of onetoone contact you've now got all of this material that you and your team can work through how much contact will you have with apple between now and S of the release of all this software uh so there was an opportunity immediately after the State of the Union uh where you can meet in the Apple engineers and there were so many different uh lobs and sessions that you could go to uh but uh definitely there was not enough time to speak with all of them uh all you can could do is like in a few words describe the new technology and how you might use it and exchange contacts to reach them later when you need them I mean I imagine they're obviously open to being contacted because they want to help they want you to do your thing but they've also they must have be under a lot of time pressure do you find uh it's easy to get the information you need from Apple after this sort of thing uh well we'll see because I definitely was not able to get all of the information uh during the the labs because even the Apple Engineers were quite frustrated because they still were not aware which information they can already share which is still still under NDA so they had to check uh with with their managers or policies I don't know uh so they were not willing to share all of the information so but we'll see later um is that unusual for this year or is that just typical do you think of WWDC uh well I think it's uh a bit unusual uh first of all because uh the format was different it's the first time they have this I think the first time yeah they have this format where uh they returned to one-onone Labs with developers after the covid uh so I think the Apple Engineers was still like learning what what do how they can provide maximum value from this new forat so it feels you've had a certain amount of information but um maybe not as much as in most years for it uh are there is there anything so far that's come to you that's leapt out has being particularly useful for for you at mpor as a developer uh yeah so uh besides the uh Labs there was an opportunity to go to uh additional sessions that apple had in the development center uh for you could uh sign up for this event prior to WDC they they had limited number of seats there uh but they would explain uh in additional details all of the new technologies uh what what they added it was something like the extended stand of the Union session right okay interesting it feels like you've got to think very quickly to decide what to ask them in the limited time that you have is that right yeah personally for me I noted all of the interesting new technologies uh and I want to learn more after uh the wble DC week uh to to see the documentation to see additional sessions so I definitely didn't have so much time during that week well actually let's talk about the notes you made then of the things that leapt out at you uh I mean Apple intelligence is the obvious big one um did you have any thoughts about how you could see that working with your apps for sure uh so uh personally for me this was uh one single most important update that Apple released uh frankly we were expecting that Apple would announce something like that they they have been uh go into this for a while like with apple M processors with additional machine learning course uh uh so uh I was frankly expecting that would uh they would provide something uh locally on a machine uh for large language models or some additional intelligence and this is the the most interesting part I think that we are really as a as a technology uh going through a new Industrial Revolution which is II Revolution and I believe apple is one of the key players in this revolution because even though they might seem uh very slow adopting these Technologies uh but in the same time they are uh like very fundamental and uh uh approaching it like an ecosystem that others could build upon uh so uh they would provide tool for uh like local machine learning uh models powered by Apple silicon uh which other developers can build into their products and uh benefit from them so I think this is like one of the greatest uh announcements uh that we have been all waiting for there's been this odd sense that Apple has uh fallen behind the industry in AI but we know that it's been doing neural engines we know it's had machine learning for a decade or more or things uh do you feel that perception is right that apple is trying to catch up or are we all wrong about it uh well I think that there their company that they are planning uh their releases years ahead uh so they were preparing uh the uh Hardware first then they were preparing like some basic Technologies uh like for example uh machine learning tools uh in their ipis and right now they're releasing something on top of that uh which is very logical and will be uh much uh in much better integrated into the ecosystem than any other player you said though that you were expecting this I mean I know we all were um were you was there anything in the way Apple has done this that surprised you uh well definitely uh they made a huge Accent on the Privacy uh approach uh I think uh uh being able to uh use local uh on the device uh uh language models uh is a single most important thing to allow the high volume adoption of these Technologies because uh not everyone even frankly me uh uh like to send our private information to open for example CH chat gbt uh in order to get some answer I still consider that they can learn something from it and sometimes it will pop up in some places you wouldn't expect uh so I think the the Privacy approach that Apple introduced is the right way to go for the uh all of this uh artificial intelligence uh uh thing so uh it's it's a big uh big update I think there is an argument that apple is actually playing it safe and that therefore uh its AI features won't be that good won't be that interesting um do you subscri I tell you don't sound like you subscribe to that you think they're doing the right they've taken the right approach uh well uh I think uh when Apple introducing some new technology or tool or app uh they usually do it for the very Mass Market U because they have like large large audience and it has to be appealing for for this audience but if you want to specialize uh if you want to make it better to make more variations of it to have some customizations uh users will already know how it works and for example what are the limitations and then uh extend to some other tools to get better experience and this this is what's good about Apple because they could introduce this new II Technologies to such a wide audience and that they will start using it and that they will build expectations uh from other uh II providers as well interesting right um it feels like um for us as users that all of this is coming and it's months away for developers normally by this stage you have at least a mostly complete uh developer beta of things and in this case all the betas are out but none of them have any Apple intelligence features in it so is it actually quite a frustrating time for you waiting to get your hands on these kind of things uh yeah so they do have some limited access to it yeah but most of them will I think they will be available later this year uh but this is not the first time that they doing this uh so yeah a bit uh you are excited to put your hands on these new technologies but yeah you still have to wait but yet you can play already with some new uh apis that Aid it and try to integrate them into your products um to see how they might work for you um another developer was telling me I think it was actually last year just not like it's just a conversation that um every single year they try to clear the decks for WWDC cuz they know it's I either going to introduce amazing new things they want to add or it's going to break what they've got already and they're going to have to scrapple to fix it is that a typical developer worry at this time well yeah usually it this wor um exciting moment to to see the announcements uh sometimes uh Apple would Sherlock some of the apps or Technologies sometimes they would kill some apps like this year they did with calculators for iPad for example and uh they also introduced the password manager which is uh potentially could replace one password for for example for some basic users definitely not uh teams and corporate users but still like they uh adding some things that are logical to to their operating system to the way where they are going and uh this is sometimes could be a bad news for for many developers but yet uh like for us for examp example U uh the WWDC event usually is a very motivating thing inspiring thing because uh our team could energize and receive this energy for at least half of the year and we know okay what uh we should adopt what technologies we should adopt in our products uh What uh exciting updates will be in operating systems what developer tools they added and this is like really exciting moment for the Innovations I think of it every time WWDC comes around I think of uh the features that I'm interested in that I'll use and all that and I can imagine I I kind I have developed in the past I can see that I would just enjoy playing with the new things to see what I could come up with but it also seems to me like it's quite a business job here because I imagine you want to have all the new features available when iOS 18 is publicly released but with don't really know when that is so I we know roughly but so you're shooting for a certain Target and you have you've got to decide what you want you've got to implement it for it is it quite a logistical problem for you sorting out this time of year uh well usually if you don't change anything U your app will still continue to work uh but of course you will lose some competitive advantage and you will lose some opportunity to be featured by Apple on the App Store uh so it's a good motivation to start doing things uh and think how uh most effectively you can use all of the new announcement to introduce them into your products as well uh so uh I think it's it drives the Innovation and it drives the need to change for the developers because for example if you have a product that works that brings you new customers and revenue uh so for some Developers it it is okay and they can uh relax and work on some other things uh but for example when you have a external Factor like the new OS coming and you need to do some changes updates to make it feel fresh and uh up toate with a new operating system you still have to spend your time to update the app and this is good for users as well because they could receive a refreshed version of your app with new features and and some updates and this is good for developers because they won't turn their app into abandon work I was thinking there uh particularly of you and your team but of course like I said at the start you are working with well over 200 other apps and developers I every developer is going through the same thing I presume they're all racing to get the new features in and out um is that a problem for you or is it just the new version turns out do you have to manage 200 odd developers uh yes so of course they they developing their apps on their own so we don't have to push them to to make some updates uh but we still uh motivate them to have their apps updated uh because usually uh it uh returns to them through uh user uh engagement so the the fresher the app and the the better the usage and it means in our case uh the better is the revenue for for the vendors because we are paying based on the active usage of the apps and this is the way they can be uh successful on our platform makes sense um you did mention sherlocking earlier um and actually specifically calculators it seems to me that things the the one people think of straightaway the one I thought of straightaway was pacal which is on every device ever made and I love pacal and uh I've tried the new calculator and it's very nice on the iPad but it isn't peal I'm sticking with what I've got there are like you said they're going to be basic users who go away you do have one particular app in setup that I was concerned about you have solver in there um is are you expecting them to try something new have you been able to speak to them about how they feel of Apple's new moves uh so uh frankly I didn't have an opportunity to speak to them yet uh but I guess there would be some apps that will not be as uh uh needed anymore on the platform as before so they would have to innovate or to do something to to be to stay appealing to to their customers and usually this could be either um the user interface or some additional feature set that they are building in order to keep the audience engaged so there are ways for p you still you still have to think about how to make your app better uh and more appealing to your customers than default default ones on Apple Pro platform something we've been discussing on the the app side of podcast is uh Apple makes very good apps but they are very good up to a certain point they they don't tend to be powerful apps and things so uh reminders for example is excellent but it's never going to be omn Focus or to-do Pro or things three um do you find that maybe uh when Apple enters an area they start making that division that there's a a basic or casual user but the power ones gravitate to a apps like solver like anything else you have on setup uh I think yeah this is the case because they introduce something to users and at the same time uh they have uh the huge ecosystem of apps and other developers who could do certain things for certain audience much way better than Apple does either this could be like some specific users or some localized users for example in some countries or this could be like corporate users that needs uh Team access to certain things uh so but anyway uh they are providing uh besides these apps they are providing uh the whole ecosystem and developer tools that you can build and make your apps even better better than Apple's U basic ones I realized uh I I don't think I use setup enough I worked it out not very long ago um I'm I think I probably use 15 apps out of setups massive list um I mean I really like them I'm very glad and it's more than worth it for me but I keep thinking I should really explore the rest um are you do you use all 200 apps uh no definitely not I also have my own uh workflow of the apps I use uh so I think on average people on set app use around um like 7 to to 12 apps uh so and this is what enables our business model so if we split the revenue of each user across seven apps for example it will be enough for every developer to be successful on the platform I really thought I was not using it enough but I'm above average I quite like that yeah there there are some power users uh that has like way higher uh users than than average but this is like certain per only of the audience not not every user is like this um do you think that's going to change uh there the thing with the the EU you're doing your own apps door um for it that that's going to bring in all sorts of iOS apps and things I that sounds like a massive undertaking for it and well firstly how is that going are you all done and ready for the EU yes so uh technically uh we already uh out so we have a private batter that is currently running uh so we want to collect as much feedback on this stage from our customers and vendors to know uh what things to improve for us and what feedback we could provide to Apple and saying about Apple they have been very helpful uh to make this thing happen uh so they provided uh so many things that we thought that we would have to build on our own uh so we are frankly thankful to them because for example they provided the whole infrastructure to um um distribute apps uh so it's not our part of the job it's Apple does it for us uh they also uh check for different security uh Integrity they check for any malicious behavior of the apps so they still have a large part of the review process on their side and frankly we are again grateful to them for this because uh over the last uh I know 17 years or how how how long has been how old this ab store okay not 17 2008 so yes quite a while now 15 years so over this 15 years they built a lot of internal tools to validate the apps to check if they are doing something unintentionally and it would be rather expensive and uh challenging job to do it on our own so this is good part the B the bad part we're still not very happy with the with the user experience of of getting the third party Marketplace on the iPhone at the first place uh because there there has been too many steps too many uh screens that users have to go through in order to get this working on their devices so this at the moment could be a limiting factor uh but uh I hope together with apple and the you Regulators will be able to to solve this and make it much uh easier uh for customers to to get it on board makes sense this feels like uh like I said it's a big job but you also at the same time as big changes coming I mean I can't I presume there's no apple intelligence benefit coming along to the EU uh the mark the app store for it are there new tools that you think will will improve the user experience over time uh why do you think there is no apple intelligence in the U no no I I mean in the sense of uh providing an app store is is there any artificial intelligence Apple intelligence feature that an app Store can offer something with um I don't know is the likely to be a way to better recommend certain apps um is it a tool that has any connection with what you're having to achieve with an app store uh well uh I think that they will be integrating Siri uh with additional app intents or uh metad data with the App Store uh so potentially s sir could better understand your request and provide uh and suggest apps for you uh but uh this is something we we already do in setup so we have like intelligent II assistant uh that could help you or provide you within app for any request and this is what already works for us uh but what we would really be thrilled to see in the future is uh the setup u i ass system integration with uh for example app intense uh that uh could potentially provide users on our platform with Immediate Solutions for the for their requests even though the set app app may not be installed yet so this could be a really interesting development for us and we will be looking how we can use this uh to make uh access uh to apps functionality easier in the future uh you mentioned how long the Appo has been around and said at the top you've been running mapo since I think it was 2008 um I've got to ask where does the name come from Mao uh yeah so it was a long long time ago uh so frankly uh we were looking for available domain name and we we wanted to have some association with apple ecosystem because uh we we wanted our apps and uh company name to be findable for uh uh Apple in apple ecosystem so usually long time ago when you were looking for an app you would usually add like uh some app name or what what it does for Mac so uh it was a logical thing to add uh something like this in the naming it was challenging and because for example for macpo it was very challenging to get a trademark uh but but we got it uh for climma we still don't have a trademark even after uh 15 16 years on the market bizarre isn't it the trademarking system I do not understand it at all but I get the why Mac but poor PW as as in a cat kind of poor what does it mean it stand for something uh yeah so long time ago the operating systems were named after different cats like Li M Li pther Etc so this was like logical addition to it that makes sense oh I love I love the well the the it's a name like setup I mean you know it means a set of apps but you don't think of that that's its name and macort is is a name like you don't think of brro and where that came from it just it is it's like um eBay uh they didn't want to call it that but they settled on some sort of man thing and now it's the perfect name so if you created something that's um risen above its Origins and become your identity your brand I love that but yeah as I understand it as well as developing setup and all of this stuff you also have a rather spectacular collection of Apple devices about po have I got that right or am I totally wrong uh yes you are correct uh we uh basically have uh Apple device uh ever developed except the Apple uh the first the first Apple one all right I've been trying to to get to get that on the auctions but the the price went too high like $7,000 per for this device and there is like only 700 I think of them in in existence so it's a quite rare rare Beast see thing is you say you run a hugely successful company it's very big and I can say even if you had no interest in software at all you could be interested in the business and it could be your passion but you say something like that about the collection and I think you really are a Mac guy here you are an Apple guy at heart aren't you uh yes I am uh well basically because it is my passion I I think that my career my life journey is where well connected to Apple because when I was a student I was once uh introduced to Apple and I stayed with Apple after that for my lifetime uh so I think this company the philosophy the Steve Jobs example uh it really affected my way of life my business decisions and and the company so I'm very grateful to Apple for for being here for for the humanity nice nice word but you said that Steve Jobs as an inspiration for it what are the kind of things that you feel he brought you and us through Apple what's helped you in that way well this the main thing I think is the approach to how they build how they build products uh he's thinking about the design of the products it's not only the way it looks it it must look great but only uh uh the way but also the way how they work so it really goes together the UI and the uix and uh it's not only about the software but it's the whole user experience from know first opening the the the Mac when they bought it to uh installing uninstalling some apps and using the whole ecosystem so it's really amazing and I think many companies can learn from that how to make their products better uh because unfortunately over time uh some profits becomes the priority or some rapid uh uh product changes become the priority and they are forgetting about the user experience which is for is said well listen I mean I could ask you questions about that I ask question about everything all day but I need to remember as well you are a developer so you have to go to do some developing and you've only just got back haven't you from Apple p so thank you very much after a very long flight for coming on the Apple Insider podcast deeply grateful for having you on here thanks a lot thank you so much for the invitation happy to be here remember this even more on Monday with homekit Insider which we'll be looking at all the the home announcements from wwc and then Wes and I will be back next Friday by which time ah we'll have nothing left to talk about at all I think we'll find something thank you very much for listening speak to you next time\n"