The Frustration of Vanishing Apps: A Reflection on Technological Progress and Loss

It's frustrating when an app suddenly vanishes from our devices, leaving us wondering what happened to it. Even if we didn't use it frequently, its absence still feels like a loss. However, as Apple continues to innovate and push the boundaries of technology, it's essential to appreciate the progress made in the past while embracing the future.

The Historical Significance of Apps Past

Historically notable apps have come and gone, leaving behind a legacy that can be interesting to discuss. While their functionality may not be directly applicable today, they paved the way for the development of modern technologies. For instance, the Apple Vision Pro's gesture controls might seem revolutionary, but they build upon existing ideas.

The Future of Gestures: A New Paradigm

Recent advancements in the Apple Vision Pro have led to a new understanding of how gestures can be applied across various interfaces. The idea is no longer limited to touchscreens or 2D gestures; instead, it's evolving towards 3D interactions that can be more natural and intuitive. This shift could potentially change the way we interact with our devices, making them more accessible and user-friendly.

The Benefits of Gestures on a Desktop

The gesture controls developed for the Apple Vision Pro can also be applied to desktop computers or laptops. This would eliminate the need to reach out and press keys, which is ergonomically challenging. PC manufacturers have adapted to this setup, but Apple's innovative approach could lead to a new standard in user interface design.

The Potential of 3D Gestures

The development of gestures that can be recognized in 3D space has significant implications for the future of technology. The pinch gesture used in the Apple Vision Pro is just one example of how these interactions can be refined and perfected. As this technology advances, we can expect to see more sophisticated interfaces that are easier to use and more intuitive.

The Influence of Gestures on Everyday Life

Gestures have already become an integral part of our daily lives, from waving at a friend or family member to giving someone the thumbs-up. These actions may seem simple, but they require recognition and understanding by computers and other devices. The refinement of gestures will likely lead to more seamless interactions between humans and technology.

The Road Ahead: Refining Gestures and Interfaces

As Apple continues to develop its gesture controls for the Apple Vision Pro, it's essential to acknowledge that this is not a tomorrow technology. Rather, it's an evolution of existing ideas that will take time and refinement to perfect. The Mac desktop has undergone significant changes over the years, from 1.0 to 2.0, demonstrating that the user interface is constantly adapting to meet the needs of its users.

The Apple Vision Pro: A New Standard for Gestures

Apple's vision for gestures on the Apple Vision Pro seems remarkably natural and intuitive. The ability to move around instantly and interact with virtual objects has been a game-changer in terms of accessibility and usability. This technology is poised to revolutionize the way we interact with our devices, making them more accessible to everyone.

The Importance of Research and Development

Apple's investment in research and development has led to significant breakthroughs in gesture controls. The company's dedication to refining its UI has resulted in a product that feels more natural and intuitive than ever before. As this technology advances, it's essential to acknowledge the importance of ongoing research and development.

Getting in Touch with Mike Corriveau

For those interested in learning more about our conversation today or exploring other topics, you can find Mike Corriveau at app.com, linkedin.com, or appleinsider.com. The podcast post will include links to these resources, making it easy to get in touch and engage with him further.

The Importance of Homekit

As we wrap up this article, remember that there's a great deal more to explore within Homekit. Every Monday, a new feature is released, adding value and functionality to your home. Don't miss out on these exciting updates!

Exclusive Content for Apple Insider Plus Subscribers

For our readers who are part of the Apple Insider Plus subscription service, we have some exclusive content in store. Stay tuned for more articles, podcasts, and interviews that delve deeper into the world of technology and innovation.

Thank You

Finally, a huge thank you to our sponsors BetterHelp and Oracle for their ongoing support. It's because of partnerships like these that we're able to bring you high-quality content and stay true to our mission.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enhello welcome to the Apple Insider podcast I'm William Gallagher our sponsors this week our better help and Oracle and joining me is Apple insiders Mike worly Mike we've just heard the latest Apple earnings yet do you wish you had stock in the company now I intentionally don't have stock in the company uh it's I feel like it's a conflict of interest so do I wish I had stock in the company yeah you know it's it's good money it's a good investment it's always been a good investment I actually learned from Lou Grant in the 70s that it's good to have one stock one share in something because it get you Financial access and all this sort of stuff but I've never done it so I'm glad to hear you haven't either yeah that that hasn't been needed for Apple in 37 years they're they're real transparent about that what we don't get is a stockholders meeting right but that's okay right that's where it falls down but still they're doing they're doing great so that's all right then here's the situation right Apple could not sell another iPhone ever ever again just be done selling iPhones and they would still be functional I haven't run the math in a while but it's it's over five years with their cash horde just paying people just to sit around and not develop iPhones it it it's it is such an obscene amount of money that the company makes and that's great for Apple but it matter matters not one wit to most of us reading excuse me to most of us listening to this podcast unless you're a shareholder doesn't make the devices faster it it doesn't make them come out any sooner it it doesn't make the software any better it doesn't reprioritize Apple's efforts into something that you want So Great Wall Street has its opinions and that's fine they're usually wrong but that's okay too they this is Wall Street this is 100% Wall Street this is their gain and if you're an Apple user other than tribalism there's there's no reason to care about these at all there is a thing I care about though which is what you just said that Wall Street is wrong I mean I remember before I ever heard any earnings calls and was ever writing about all this stuff I would hear that thing and I think well it's Wall Street you might like them you might not but they do it a lot how can they be wrong and yet it it seems to me that consistently they I think they shortterm everything where Apple long terms everything think is that where the difference is yeah I I think that's the major breakdown I I don't think Apple cares that I I think Apple cares about their stock price I don't think they care that much about it I I think that they know that they're safe I I think that there's no scenario in the next decade where apple is doomed I I we're hitting we're looking at4 billion dollar in valuation at some point but I remember reading an interview with Tim Cook where he said uh after each of these earning calls he goes out for a walk across Apple Park and it's it I can't remember the exact words but the in sense was that it was a big thing and it was done and I was very surprised because I listened to the earnings calls and most of it is Tim Cook basically reading the statement they put out half an hour earlier saying everything's great regardless of whether it is or not so he seems to take it to heart am I missing out on something or is he just sensitive no I mean it is a big thing right it's it's fow reporting it's required by law it is Big showman time it is Tim Cook on the stage as much as he is a WWDC or the iPhone event and he does it four times a year whether he wants to or not whether he's got a head cold or the sniffles or not and you've got analysts who are not looking at the company's holistic hole for the most part they they look at what they want to see from an investment pers and that's okay for them right that that's fine that's their job that's what they do their their business is telling people how to make money fine I wonder is there an argument that analysts go on to ask questions the earning call so that they can say they've been like because I have had times listening when the next analyst asks exactly the same question as the one before so this year like every other time like every single other earnings report that I've ever listened to has had analysts ask the same question two or three or four times and they get the same answers and I don't are they just not listening to the first part of the conference call are did they not look at Apple's briefing information before they attended this conference call it it's not like Tim is is going to suddenly say in the event oh yeah by the way tomorrow we're having a Mac event that's not what this is for right there there has not been information out of an earnings event that has spilled Hardware or apple feuture plans Beyond oh hey we're doing a thing that hasn't been public knowledge for a while it's again you know I sound critical of these and it's because I am they're they're a lot of work and not a lot of gain they they are good for investors sure but for the average Apple user you're not going to learn anything by listening to this ear I'm kind of fascinated by no as a show yes that thing of four analysts in a row asking the same thing and that has happened and it always happens at least a couple uh Apple every time will then answer the question and exactly the same way it did before and makes me wonder is the you s a legal requirement uh calls last for an hour are they legally required run for 60 minutes and so apple is happy to just Pat out as long as they can no apple says they'll run 60 minutes and but I'm sure that they're happy to Pat out when they get another question that's a repeat I I don't think I don't think cooker MYRY care that a question is repeated they're just going to say the same answer and just look and see what time is Miller time okay all right so anyway we look at it then um Apple's fine really and we can look forward to more new devices in the future actually I should say which reminds me app plus this week is uh how to phrases it's kind of about old devices in the past if you're a subscriber I'm going to be taking you through Apple's power books and the surpr I think surprising impact they had I mean I'm surprised I was there I owned many a power book and there were things I'd forgotten such as which ones caught on fire uh to listen to Apple Insider plus and you get an adree version of podcast as well you can subscribe via patreon or apple podcast and it would be great to have you but now this week forget the future forget the past this week Apple intelligence is finally here in beta sort of a bit Mike did you install iOS 18.1 and the rest yes and let me be a cautionary tale for you all so I have a MacBook Air which is my secondary testing machine and my portable machine I've spoken about it before if you would like you can go back and read my long-term M3 MacBook Air review that published about two weeks ago the it absolutely destroyed the operating system the first time it it booted but I could not get it to stay not crashed from goodness so I had to wipe the machine I had to reinstall everything and then it was fine which is okay but had I cared about the data on that machine it was gone so if you don't need to have these betas now do not install these betas I cannot be more clear about that I I cannot express that more firmly than I want to I it's it's just I have such strong opinions that if you don't need it don't use it right now let other people get the Flaming data for you let other people crash and dig that hole in the ground I I know you're right obviously and many years ago I bricked an iPad and it was I got it back but it's very very horrible I think it was my main machine even at the time it just couldn't have been worse and I don't know why I was that stupid but it does seem to me that just talking to you generally you always have problems with beas and I might do or might not so actually so far I had the odd bug but nothing remotely serious on the Mac or the iPhone um for it so it seems very odd that we you and I with similar setups would have massively different situations but I suppose this just points to how delicate be to software must be I also think that you and I test different things rapple Insider I do a lot of drive enclosures and things like that and for most of the raid enclosures there's specific software for that so in regardless right it's an operating machine that that MacBook Air is is a testing machine I use it my main machine is a Mac Studio that is my testing machine and travel machine because it's important I think with the stuff I'm testing that I run it in a desktop environment and a laptop environment just given use Pro Hardware these days but it it's any beta is there's a million different factors that could cause problem you don't want to be the guy that finds it no so but going back to the original point the the Apple intelligence stuff the writing tools are nice Malcolm wrote a piece about how it Compares versus gramly the long the short of it is it's when it rolls out in full it is probably enough you probably don't need that $100 a year grammarly subscription any but it's still really early like the Siri editions haven't been made there there are a couple of nods to it like the interface with the with the glowy outline is is in and that's fine but that's just that's just Graphics that's not use that's not use ability or anything so it's still really early and we're not expecting the features to roll to start rolling out until 18.1 and curious about something though I just said about our different experience with the beta I was thinking about crashes but also Malcolm did that whole thing about writing tools versus grammarly when I went into writing tools there are a couple things I can do but they at the proofreading one the main one it does absolutely nothing on my it just sits there I mean unless I just write perfectly or something and that's that's what it is isn't it it's telling me and no that that is not what it is but I appreciate you saying so it it's it's they're like it's beta right it's it entirely possible that the model that the it needs hasn't fully downloaded because after you're approved on the Apple intelligence waiting list there is a download afterward for all the stuff to be enabled it's and it's not a tiny one but you still have to have it if you don't have it you even though you're in the beta and have succeeded congratulations you're off the weit list now you have the features you still have to get that model and if you don't have it you're that explains why I noticed things suddenly appearing after a few hours and actually one after a day and things uh so actually stuff I really I mean the thing I really like is Apple Mail and the way the inbox listing almost always shows a summary now instead of the first few lines and there's some Oddities about it but generally that is so useful and actually I think that's illustrative of why Apple intelligence is good it I don't have to go out to mail GPT and ask it something just takes something good and makes it a bit better and I think that's great but I've been a bit no about the rest of it so I am concerned a great deal about AI summarization tools right they do they do a good job in summarizing the article or two or email or two in a paragraph or two yes they do but you're losing a lot of the message you're losing presentation you're losing the intent of the writing so great I guess if you're in a super hurry that you can't take 13 seconds and read your email like we get thousands of emails at Apple Insider a day and if you rely on the summaries these emails from PR people sound like the best thing in the world but they're not right they're they're they're PR pitches for things that we would never cover yeah to be fair though when you read the full thing they still try to make it sound like the greatest okay I I will never um I won say I'll never use Su I there's thing in apple May where you go in you can press a summarized button I don't care if I've gone in there I'm just going to read it but the inbox thing Quick Glance does this look important that's useful except I I am seeing problems uh an email of mine was kind of badly summarized uh it made it sound like um it's basically that I was reluctant uh initially reluctant to do something but it agreed but the truth is it was my idea uh the whole thing so it was just 100% wrong and there's a company I I don't want to work with and Apple's rewriting to make it friendly made it sound like I did want to work with them which is like very friendly and I can't rely on it but at bits at times I think it's I'm I'm finding the inbox handy at least so well but here's the thing that's why I was talking about tone and message right the the summarization is is is adequate but if you're relying on this to make decisions and respond to people without reading emails you're making a huge huge huge mistake please don't do that actually that's the thought I I I was quite taken with summaries I sound like I'm more positive than you but actually I agree except inbox yes but also uh there are times uh when I'm searching a lot of sites for a lot of things and on Safari the way that it would summarized article I think would at least help me think have an assessment is it worth reading this full 10,000w article or now or not but I don't get saari highlights uh for some reason um and I know other people do so perhaps it's just cuz I'm in the UK and I've haven't finished the last button or something but have you used Safari highlights does it work for you yes but the problem is is and it's the problem is not specifically with apple here the problem is is how everyone is adopting this technology so you've got this 10,000w article you're trying to figure out if it's worth reading or not so you use the AI tool to summarize for it so you're on their page for a second or less you know this this stuff costs money to write the internet is not free there are people generating content on the internet like us yes that that one second is not even necessarily add Impressions it's not there's no time on the page which Google relies on a great deal to determine if content is worthwhile so heavy Reliance on AI summaries when you're consuming the internet is ultimately injurious to the internet and if you don't care about that that's fine it's a personal choice right we all use the tools we use for the reasons we use them and and that's fine but this is absolutely going to accelerate a decline in unique voices on the web there is no question about it online publishing has gotten perilous yeah we're good apple Insider's fine we we're not you know we're not having a problem but there are a lot of sites Apple sites that provide decent and good content that are not going to survive this and that's a shame that that's and it's and it's a shame because it's big Tech and big business deciding that they're going to make your life simpler and make sure that these sites get nothing for compensation for the 45 seconds that you might have taken to read this article instead of the one second that you took to read which may not be accurate right but apart from that um okay that got a bit bleak actually go from ble to silly I just said a thing about how I'm in the UK so it's different uh to be clear you can only get ios 18.1 if you're in the states or if your iPhone believes you are so I did I changed my region to the US changed my language to English brackets us and eventually realized I also had to send a series language to English US fine did all of that and at the moment it's most my Ione is left on this mostly because I can't be bothered to go through on doing it all but I'm shocked how many differences there are in iPhones between American states one is in the middle of the night I looked at my Apple watch and it was telling me the time was uh 404 not 0404 what I'm like I cuz I use 24-hour clock and apparently American stoned and my watch looked like a bit of the screen was broken and yesterday I'm in a conversation about how how what it is so I look up the weather app and apparently it was 79 de fahit I'm in England I have not one Thin clue whether that's hot or cold you know so I had to rely on whether I the temperature I felt was just terrible how do you Americans put up with all the wrong systems like that uh well I'm I have a master's degree in physical chemistry I am fluent in both okay what's 79 then in Celsius okay about 23 20 oh right actually that sounds quite low it seemed hotter anyway um another thing about iOS 18.1 on the beta is that it's uh one of two beas going on there is still the iOS 18 beta making its way through the developers and the public versions is this splitting of a beta thing new or has Apple done it before no they've done this before uh they notably they did this long ago when they introduced egpu support in 2016 2017 they they're running simultaneous betas even like the uh even like the iOS 18 so forth betas to test different aspects of it is it's not common but it's happened before like even like last week before the iOS 17.6 release on Monday they were doing iOS 17.6 and iOS 18 in parallel right so to some extent there's always multiple betas going on this time of year it seems a complicated way of doing it I mean if I'm working on the 18.1 beta and the 18 beta do something do I take their code do I test against it do I release it I I just keeping track sounds like a massive job I'm sure it is I here's the thing with apple though they have enough money to do all of them in parallel that's not a problem right and I think for the most part developers are safe testing one or the other I think they're safe testing iOS 18.1 or iOS 18.0 I there's not going to be gigantic differences in the code base as far as base functionality outside of Apple intelligence for 18.0 to 18.1 because that kind of defeats the purpose yeah the 18.1 is explicitly intended for Apple intelligence you forget sometimes or at least maybe all I mean is I forget sometimes that this is the purpose of the bu is to get to developers is to test things for them to do and and actually we will look forward won't we to great new features from good developers very soon yeah so y it's yeah I let's and again I want to be perfectly clear about this this these betas are for testing and given that the release of WWDC they are explicitly intended for Developers to throw their software at it and see so if you have a if you have a particular piece of software that you rely on for any aspect of your productivity let other people get that data for you do you think it's actually a bad idea that Apple has a public basa relas no I it's yeah not really there are still developers that are not big-time developers that still would like or need access to the software to test for this and and with anything and it's real clear in the terms this is a testron parallel kind of thing Apple can hand you the tool right they can hand you the hammer and the wrench but they frankly don't care if you use it to bludgeon yourself to death with I just I feel like in the last year or so I've been seeing more people doing using the beaters than I might have expected I um most recently yeah it's a bad my super guy in my car garage as he was billing me a lot of money for anot test we do here I noticed he was on the beta of iOS 15 16 18 one of those um and the year before I was a woman at a supermarket uh guarding the cash TR things who had the Snoopy watch face and we had a great time talking about that but I didn't dare ask her whether she was a developer on the side because I didn't want to frighten her if she wasn't yeah it's just there there's no support Apple's not going to support you other than if you Breck your device you can bring it in and they'll see if they can help you that's very big of them but there's no tech support for this there's no Aid for this you you get what you get so we already know that if you're an apple Insider podcast listener you are smarter than the average Bearer and that's great and you already know the risks and dangers of these betas but like Williams Clark Williams Clark person at the store they probably do not so reading this you're probably okay if your grandma's using it that's probably not okay right I think I might be bringing down the average intelligence said because um we will get great new features from developers in a few months right uh we have the starts of Apple intelligence now but we don't really have much of it yet um has there been anything that stands out to you as as a user as useful in this so not something uh that will become useful with developers yet but something you think right now actually I like that I wish I had it before I'm I'm going to deflect your question a little bit and I think what I like about Apple intelligence and how they're implementing it is the fact that they are considering user privacy and how they do it and what they like apple intelligence is not going to let you create a deep fake porn it it's not going to it's not deep with generative AI so if you if you need an artist talk to an artist that's fine when you use it to talk to chat GPT it anonymizes the search as opposed to if you have a chat GPT account they know every single thing that you asked and will happily use that however they see fit so my killer feature for Apple intelligence is that my killer feature is the fact that Apple's like whoa whoa let's slow down on this harvesting of data and this absolute lack of privacy on what you're telling it to do and let's let's deal with that on a device level that that is my best feature of Apple but hang on the one hand that the business with um not generating um photorealistic images that's what they don't do whatever they are you're saying that's Apple effectively encourage you to go to an artist and I agree but at the same time you're saying the whole thing of summarizing is does Apple just not like writers is that where this is coming from so text generation and writing is low hanging fruit everybody writes emails everybody writes school reports every there even if you are not a writer you are spending some of your day you know writer and I'm putting that in italics here with a capital W like William and I are writers we get paid to do his job you know this is not a hobby as much as people might like but everybody writes it it's like cooking there are chefs and there is the home chef and there's a huge difference between the two right and there's also I don't I don't know if this will make any sense to an American but there's uh there are chefs there are cooks and there's mine which is Pierce the lid in several places yeah that's that's yeah okay microwave cooking that's what you mean that okay I'm sorry but I interrupted you with triviality there can you remember your point no it's it's it's actually yeah you're you're you're making the point so if you're a parent for instance you have letters write back and forth to your kid school or the parent teacher Association or if you're at work you've got to tell Jim over in accounting that your expense report isn't back yet what the hell man so there there is a lot that people use for writing and I think that these tools used appropriately and not like a cudel are a net benefit do you think developers are going to put an add-on to this CU so right now the writing tools you have the options of friend ly professional and concise are they going to do some can some is there an API Andel can have uh threatening or something like that I quite like that no well I I in my experience I found that everyone writes a threatening email this right but the uh in all seriousness I do not believe there's presently an API I may be wrong about this there does not appear right now to be an way to change what Apple intelligence is giving you for cues for how to rewrite the uh so you know like I told uh scripts on the news the other day if you know your neighbor is is just being a total jackass maybe you want to get it out of your system in your first draft but maybe then you realize you're going to have to live next to this guy for 30 years and maybe the email you send him should not be look you piece of whatever you need to fix your thing instead it should be hey you know I was wanding through my yard the other day and I saw that the fence had collapsed at this point maybe we can get together and deal with that somehow that is a better more politic letter to send to this guy that you're going to have exposure to for the next however many that makes sense I'm thinking about your yard now and whether youve revealed neighborhood disputes there but a reason for having you on today well partly let's face it because Wes is on one of these holiday things but it was an excuse his absence I wanted you on because there are certain things what so many things that you know that I don't you said ear about we test different things um I always see you as the hardware guy and I know I'm a software guy but I think I read this week was that Apple has admitted to using Google tensor Hardware to train Apple intelligence it was the first time in my life I'd heard of Google tensor and I have no thin clue whether or not this is in any way significant what's a Google tensor and should I gu so Apple never really said before this paper how they were training the core of appin so if you're going to skip if this topic bores you and you're going to skip ahead two minutes the answer is this doesn't really matter because what Apple does with that model after the fact is what does the the fact that it was used on these dedicated artificial intelligence processing units is interesting in the fact that I I do not think that apple had any interest in sending this information across the cloud to Google regardless of how big that their internet pipe is I I am reasonably certain that even though Google doesn't sell the tensor cores to anybody I'm pretty sure they did for Apple in this case right people can say that you know oh apple is fighting with Google and fighting with Facebook for the dominance of the Internet it's business it's business meta fully knows for instance that the Apple Vision Pro brings mind share to that product category Google pays Apple a ton of money to be the default search Choice a ton of money billions so while the trenches may be filled on social media with fans or when other just coming to blows about this kind of thing the companies don't care the companies work fine together I mean and I this is another example I suppose I'm not surprised I just from the headlines thought is this drama and and no this show is sponsored by betterhelp better help is a therapy service that the rather fits our lives of being constantly connected and online but also so very often isolated it's an online therapy service which means wherever you are you can be connected to a therapist who is right for you that's and that's not some sort of idol claim either better help has over 35,000 therapists with every possible qualification and area of expertise plus before the service tries to match you up with one of those it asks you I think a really rather clever series of questions I some of them are obvious like you'd expect where are you that kind of thing but working through them helps you focus on your needs as much as it then helps better help find the right therapist it's a thorough process just the short opening question areas but you also finish it feeling I think feeling little less unsure uncertain kind of nebulous about your issues and then you get matched to a therapist and while you can choose to talk with them uh chiefly over messages or video calls it's always all online which means it suits your schedule that means you never need to skip a therapy day with better help providing help in a way that you can access without taking time out to go to an office without that adding to the stresses you have visit betterhelp.com slapple inssider today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com slapple Insider and thanks to better help for supporting the Apple Insider podcast but you just mentioned Apple Vision Pro and I realized that's another Reon I I finally here in the UK had my first demo of it and I actually told the guy at Apple who was excellent by the way that I had two friends one of them was you who uses it like once a month or something and otherwise it sits on the desk somewhere and the other is where who wears it for eight hours every day the Apple guy was crestfallen at you and delighted at w and I suppose we're not surprised but I need to know have you come around to where's point of view no yeah um I mean there are lifestyle reasons for that right I have children oh true and they're they're both on the autism spectrum at some point they're higher functioning but it still means I need to be a little more available as it pertains to caretaking and surveillance of the environment and the Apple Vision Pro isn't a big old cued headset right but it is still immersive yes so it is it is a little deeper than I care for and I've spoken about this at some length I the last time I was on this podcast I think I talked about it too if it it's just it's fine the technolog is interesting I like what Apple's done with it it's fun to watch movies in it but it's but if I'm going to watch something I've got three monitors in front of me one of them is a 32 in and two of them are 27 in right I I have more than enough screen real estate to do what I need without popping up a virtual 65inch Mac screen well actually how about this then you go to those screens in front of you you're done you're set but in maybe 6 weeks time or so we will you be buying another screen like shall we say iPhone sized so yes that that was a good segue by the way I like that that's very smooth it it it very clearly demonstrates that we both have passs and radio yes um the so yes I am okay uh do you I've never actually said I think do you upgrade every year I do not uh my I use I have the incredible privilege of being able to use these devices to help the feds assess what they what they need and what they have what should be recommended to people so for a period of time right after release I will get to use a a federal provided okay um I kind of curious about this but um it's Federal so there limit on what I can ask I knew you had that content I knew your history B but I didn't know this aspect of it how do you test out a phone from scratch that seems I mean for federal purposes that's are you even allowed to explain how you do it so you can ask me whatever you'd like right there's no prohibitions on what you can ask me there are prohibitions on what I can answer that's two entirely different things how much do they pay no no okay um well that I'm not sharing but the uh the so testing a phone there's a couple different aspects of it there's aspects of it that are secure that I test inside the facilities and that's usually the first week and there aspects of General use with a mobile device profile that I test after the fact that I'll test for a couple weeks after that so the after the fact testing is just walking around with the supermarket with a mobile device profile and make sure nothing I'm suddenly not exposed to the to the classified environment with the MDM in the middle of the supermarket right excellent so it it's no different than assessing a phone for Consumer use right you still got to look at the cameras you still got to look at Wi-Fi speeds you still got to look at 5G so it's the the valuation aspect is not as hard as you might think considering that year-over-year there's not an incredible Gap in performance or technology no no but um it's Federal so there must be forms to fill out things is there a section with check boxes with the color cuz that's got to be important to them oh no they don't care they you know when what is wrong with them when when I did this with the iPhone 5c I I got that terrible yellow color right you to forgotten that one yes so yeah they don't care they they get what they're supplied which is usually a shade of gray there's a r as we record this has just been a set of rumors of all of the colors for basically spoiling perhaps all of the colors uh for it and one of them uh maybe this is revealing of the one I'm drawn to the iPhone 16 Pro is said to have a black uh version and it already does the 15 Pro does but this is like very black um well right there don't forget there was the piano uh color in the iPhone 7 so there have been very blacks but I remember seeing uh wasn't there a difference in the black between I think it was the seven and the seven plus they were both black but one looked better than the other and I can't remember which way around it was yeah it's been like 18 lifetime yes okay you're you don't sound as drawn to black as I am but I don't care either right because I and this is I'm going to be frank about this everything I get a phone I put a case in it and I pick the case color based on it being contrast with my sheets so it's easy to find right that's so clever okay it's I don't care I mean I've had you know Rose the rose gold one is not typically been Associated as a masculine color don't care it's covered in a case it was very nice though wasn't it it was a very nice it was a very nice color you exactly ruined all that work work all that effort uh I go caseless um and I spend a lot of time thinking about the color but actually uh this slightly Segways into um appid plus things because um I remember when Apple brought out the titanium iPhone you it was like there was a split some people were listening to Apple saying titanium is brilliant and those the rest of us with longer memories we thinking that we've been here before uh there was a power book that was made of titanium and it was a bit rubbish it all you know was rittle the paint went off and things uh so far 11 months in they seem to have got it better with the iPhone yeah so this is complicated right the Apple did not do a great job on literally the paint on the titanium MacBook on the titanium uh was power book power book yes power book I I forget that was literally 17 yeah uh PowerBook G4 yeah it was the power book so the the material science is more than just the material it's also cating it it's also coloring it it's it's how you adhere it to something else like we're talking about the titanium iPhone 15 and yeah it's titanium but it's over an aluminum shell so you got these dissimilar Metals in contact with each other titanium is not a fun metal to to pigment or paint it never has been so why they made a G4 power book out of it I still to this day don't know because they had to know that that was going to be an issue on the coding they had to know so this is a hugely long conversation that we have touched on periodically but honestly most people don't care so we haven't delved into it that deep no I I worry about spending ,000 on a phone that's going to scratch like mad and going to pull apart but you know that hasn't happened in a long time for I should get over myself basically how about the inits of the you just said you could have been nicer there you could have reassured me but you didn't the inside uh I think you've written a piece on saying there's rumors that it will have Wi-Fi 7 in the 16 pro light up and I am skeptical about Wi-Fi 7 Apple just went just just iPhone 15 Pro went iPhone went a Wi-Fi 68 right and Wi-Fi 7 routers are stupidly expens uh so if you're looking at a Wi-Fi 7 router for your house expect to spend 700 bucks expect it but if the iPhone 16 Pro were to have Wi-Fi 7 would it be backwards compatible yeah of course okay you just wouldn't get the benefit of you just wouldn't get the benefits of the seven and perhaps not for years right because I have a Wi-Fi 6 Network in I do not have a 6E Network in this house because there's no point the looking at Wi-Fi 7 it's it's significantly faster or can be significantly faster than most of the Broadband in this country okay I honestly don't know what my network is but it's fast so so you can say it's future proofing sure but I there's not going to be wide adoption option of Wi-Fi 7 in the next four years so given the choice I should be rooting for Apple to finally bring proper 5G outside the US that's what I should be doing yeah yes that's complex too right that it it's in the US and it's easily deployed in the US because of the carrier situ there are less restrictions on many of the carriers to adhere to standards they could pick any one of a series of different 5G standards and just go with that and the minute you walk over the border and get 15 miles inside the Border oh well congratulations you're on a different wife you're on a different uh you're on a different 5G standard nice job this episode is brought to you by Oracle AI might be the most important new computer technology ever it's storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested so buckle up the problem is that AI needs a lot of speed and processing power so how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control it's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud infrastructure or oci oci is a single platform for your infrastructure database application development and AI needs oci has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clients offers one consistent price instead of variable Regional pricing and of course nobody does data better than Oracle so now you can train your AI model at twice the speed and less than half the cost of other CLI if you want to do more and spend less like uber 8 by8 and data bricks Mosaic take a free test drive of oci at oracle.com slapple inssider that's oracle.com slapple inssider Oracle o r a CLE e.com slapple Insider and thank you to Oracle for supporting the Apple Insider podcast America's complicated but how about this thing of course it is yeah this is something that I don't think there's even a pixel of a rumor of it coming to the UK but um this week it was announced that Ohio residents can put that can do the digital wall thing the driver's license and stuff uh for it I know Apple's been talking about that for a couple of years but is this the first one first date that's actually done it no this is I I want I I'm not really up on this one because it's one of those hey nice feature that doesn't actually do anything right like you can't give this ID to a cop that pulls you over no you still have to have your if if it if you still have to have your paper ID with you yeah then what is the point of having it on your phone right okay that seems okay it's probably a playing a long game here eventually the cops will happily take your phone away from you that's what they'll do really long game it it is if there is any kind of serious adoption of this by police for here's the thing right I live in Northern Virginia I live not that far outside the uh outside DC itself I am just outside the DC Beltway so I've got you know I live in next Hill so I don't have 5G but I have a good infrastructure I've got good technology I've got well-funded police departments and so forth but that is not the case everywhere in this country right so you can put your ID on your I phone but if you get pulled over somewhere in the middle of nowhere you are still going to need to have that paper ID even when police departments can accept it as because they they will still have to have done the technology upgrades and crucially paid the money to get that Hardware oh okay right that seems like Case Closed there that last bit uh okay well I'm a bit disappointed in the pointlessness of that but for some reason that makes me to this I'm sure it's the idea of being isolated somewhere out in the middle of the countryside somewhere but these days now or very soon you never have to be alone anymore because you can have a friend with you oh my God that friend pendant I think it might work I because it makes me instantly of tamagachi which I didn't get into but I obviously so many people did uh people are going to sit there with their friend pendant and yeah okay I you're and your technolog is going to tell you that you suck at a game yeah that worried me a little bit it's supposed to be encouraging and friendly and happy and shares with you and the example where you're rubbish at this game or that guy's going to leave you all right it didn't say that but it looked like it was going to in the advert for it so yeah but they spent a lot of money on the URL which I I presume actually I realized I don't know I presume the URL is friend.com um that sounds worth 1.6 million billion whatever it was so let let's think about this for a minute this is a $99 Bluetooth mic with no subscription okay what are they doing with what you tell it oh you're not doubting them oh I am completely doubting them I I think this is I think this is surveillance capitalism it it's look sometime over the last 15 years people people have forgotten how to people right having friends is important and if you think that an AI is your friend great if that helps you great but think about how the company is paying for all the internet related services that this needs to work with where are they getting that money it's not going to be 99 bucks okay I thought it was silly now I think it's scary okay it's both right I mean it is silly it's ridiculously silly but the surveillance cap capitalism aspect of it really really bothers me there must be um legislation there must be something where they have to report what they do or am I just being so naive okay silly William right there's not oh all right hang on it works with an iPhone doesn't Apple that presumably means there's an iPhone app won't that app have to fess up to Apple about whatever it's doing with privacy sure but just because you know that it's taking your data doesn't mean doesn't make that any better right and so we know about the Privacy cards right we know what Apple says but how often do you think your grandma well more than you'd think yeah no okay that's true all right so their hope is uh everybody will hear about it and nobody will look too closely I I it's hard to tell right now right because this is vapor this is a slickly produced video that doesn't talk about response times or when the device decides to chime in or anything like that right so this is marketing copy right now and that's all it is but what show me what the sustainable privacy maintaining moneymaking chain you I was surprised how little marketing copy there was about it when I went to look at the website it's there is the ad and there's precious little else with it so it felt oddly rushed given that it's well funded and that video is well made I know okay and and tell me what the safeguards are that this pendant isn't going to tell you to jump off for Bridge cuz you're really sad right okay yeah we should ban all uh basically we should ban everything I mean didn't we learn this week that find my is in fact a terrible terrible thing um I feel I said this to you when I should step back and and listen to the rant no or or or are you calm about this now I am calm about this just because of Tim Sweeney's history he so I he woke up that re that morning and chose violence for whatever the reason he decided that his core principles logic was worth repeating and which is ludicrous because it absolutely was not uh just to be clear what he actually said was um let me get the phrasing right uh years and years ago somebody stole a laptop of his a Mac laptop presumably um and here he was playing with find my all these years later and fine my told him where his stolen Mac was this therefore is awful and surveillance and I'm struggling to understand that but you feel he should have just I think it if he has to but not bother saying it sure I mean everyone has those intrusive thoughts that upon retrospect you go oh well hey maybe not right I mean it happens it's life we have fleshy brains that do what they want right the but yeah how how can you get to a point where you say oh the guy who stole my laptop deserves his privacy more than I deserve to know where my stolen MacBook you get there by being a mench really that's what it is and why was he screwing around on fine my anyway if he's so concerned about the Privacy implication uh why was he screwing around on it now instead of when the laptop was stolen a few years ago too many questions here the guy in this case I swear he woke up and said you know what I hate Apple today and I'm gonna go take an enormous steaming dump on X about something okay I'm sorry I'm just thinking enormous steaming dump could be the title of this episode but let's not go there this is a family show yeah I don't think okay all right so he did it and I actually thought you I quite like the responses he got they were all basically yeah so nobody seem to be being particularly rude or mocking for it it was just you know this is a strange thing to say because of this reason or that reason and I thought then he started a response where he's going to say yeah you're right actually I oversteep this what was I thinking of and instead he agreed with everybody but tripled down on it um yeah oh yeah at least tripled yes so okay yeah it's dumb Tim you're not listening this podcast but if forever the reason somebody forges you and says that we were talking about you just delete it is not too late yeah I have it's not that I think Tim Cook listens to us but I mean I I think I've said this to where whenever I'm listening to uh you the um iTunes Apple music playlist where it curates my favorite Tunes I'm listening to One I think I'm not in the mood for it now but if I skip it Tim Cook is at Apple Park going oh he doesn't like this one as much we won't play it to him again later that that's how I see it all working please don't shatter Illusions Fair yeah yeah with one laugh he shatters Illusions okay Illusions how about this then um I think there's a category of ghost apps because I learned this week that Twitter for Mac has left the Mac App Store and hand on heart I had no idea that there was a Twitter for Mac I it hasn't been updated in forever right in forever so all credit to people for noticing but it feels like it's a Scooby-Doo think of it's not there um uh is it a great loss to humankind no it's really not there it it's best as a is a web service or phone app anyway the Mac App didn't really so the Mac App used to be good used to have a bunch of features like scheduling and and all this other fun stuff that they then L put behind the pay wall and made it impossible for the app to do right so it used to be better than it died right but it it it finally died honestly I'm not even sure Twitter pulled or X pulled this off the App Store I think that Apple may have automatically pruned it since it hasn't been updated in I don't know I think it's been four years it's probably not downloaded in three so yes okay it's the sh shame when an app vanishes though even if basically I didn't ever use it it clearly still seems wrong so no real loss I mean it's historically notable it it's interesting to talk about but as far as a functionality law okay none there's really no loss here well how about this last thing I want to ask you your opinion about because I think this could be interesting pull my head out of the past and into the future we've just run an article on Apple Insider about a new payent application which is uh it actually looks like it's a lot to do with the Apple Vision Pro but the more you get into it it isn't it's about the kind of gestures that Apple developed for the Apple Vision Pro for being applied to anything and I think in particular some of the the illustrative drawings show basically a Mac with it fine so control your Mac through gestures great clever it suddenly occurred to me as I was looking into this that this could be a way for Apple to never do a touchscreen Mac because they've always had this thing that you have to reach up and press the Mac it's ergonomically bad and PC manufacturer seem to be fine with it but Apple's no no no here they you can sit back wave at your cursor and it will do it is this actually the clever future that they are going to come out and do their thing of this is how it should always be done other developers please note so famously there is a peripheral for the Xbox 360 called The Connect kect or was it didn't really work well it was a it was a sensor that would detect your gestures it they was used for games like Just Dance where it could see you dancing in your room to to the tune um it it didn't work well it didn't work great it was not a hugely adopted feature on a desktop versus a living room I think there are more utilities for it uh but I think it will be a user habit kind of thing I think that going from 2D gestures on a trackpad to 3D gestures in the air in front of your Mac will become more natural as Apple vision technology ADV it is this is very clearly Apple hedging their bets and seeing if the Paradigm the user interface paradigms that they develop for Apple Vision will transcribe will transcribe well over to a desktop computer or a laptop or something it it's it's logical right doing these gestures and interfacing in 3D is logical plus I got to admit um when I used to work on a PC I would gesture at it quite a lot but maybe not in the way we're thinking think different we already have that thing now of um in a video conference uh I mean I can't remember the last time I saw anyone intentionally put balloons behind them or stick their thumbs up but the number of times I've scratched my nose and it's put up a thumb thing for me so it's already we're on the way this is the future here yeah today that seems okay those gestures are easy to spot right those are relatively simple they're thumbs up and so forth so those are big sweeping gestures and the research that you wrote about today is more more refined stuff like the pinch gesture that Apple Vision Pro uses to say grab an icon on your desktop and move it over got so it'll be interesting to see if this develops it's not a tomorrow technology it is going to take some time and it's going to take some refinement like Apple's already made refinements the UI inle from 1.0 to 2.0 and I that there's no reason to expect that that's going to change I mean look how much the Mac desktop is change that's true I've got to say I'm really impressed with apple Vision Pro's controls it seems so natural move around instantly like all of it so they did a great job there but yeah yeah well um okay uh where can people find you if they need to track you down about anything we've talked about today that's ominous but okay uh I am Mike corw worthly app.com it'll be linked in the podcast post and that is probably the best way to contact me if uh if you want to uh do the opposite and not hunt me down but in some way find celebrate me I don't know all the good stuff to me I I'm at William at appleinsider.com and again links in the podcast Mike thank you very much for this very good talking to you um please remember everybody there is homekit inside there every Monday and actually also uh don't forget that in just a moment there's app inside of Plus for subscribers but in the meantime thank you very much for listening thanks as well to our sponsors better help and Oracle and we'll see you next time talk to you next timehello welcome to the Apple Insider podcast I'm William Gallagher our sponsors this week our better help and Oracle and joining me is Apple insiders Mike worly Mike we've just heard the latest Apple earnings yet do you wish you had stock in the company now I intentionally don't have stock in the company uh it's I feel like it's a conflict of interest so do I wish I had stock in the company yeah you know it's it's good money it's a good investment it's always been a good investment I actually learned from Lou Grant in the 70s that it's good to have one stock one share in something because it get you Financial access and all this sort of stuff but I've never done it so I'm glad to hear you haven't either yeah that that hasn't been needed for Apple in 37 years they're they're real transparent about that what we don't get is a stockholders meeting right but that's okay right that's where it falls down but still they're doing they're doing great so that's all right then here's the situation right Apple could not sell another iPhone ever ever again just be done selling iPhones and they would still be functional I haven't run the math in a while but it's it's over five years with their cash horde just paying people just to sit around and not develop iPhones it it it's it is such an obscene amount of money that the company makes and that's great for Apple but it matter matters not one wit to most of us reading excuse me to most of us listening to this podcast unless you're a shareholder doesn't make the devices faster it it doesn't make them come out any sooner it it doesn't make the software any better it doesn't reprioritize Apple's efforts into something that you want So Great Wall Street has its opinions and that's fine they're usually wrong but that's okay too they this is Wall Street this is 100% Wall Street this is their gain and if you're an Apple user other than tribalism there's there's no reason to care about these at all there is a thing I care about though which is what you just said that Wall Street is wrong I mean I remember before I ever heard any earnings calls and was ever writing about all this stuff I would hear that thing and I think well it's Wall Street you might like them you might not but they do it a lot how can they be wrong and yet it it seems to me that consistently they I think they shortterm everything where Apple long terms everything think is that where the difference is yeah I I think that's the major breakdown I I don't think Apple cares that I I think Apple cares about their stock price I don't think they care that much about it I I think that they know that they're safe I I think that there's no scenario in the next decade where apple is doomed I I we're hitting we're looking at4 billion dollar in valuation at some point but I remember reading an interview with Tim Cook where he said uh after each of these earning calls he goes out for a walk across Apple Park and it's it I can't remember the exact words but the in sense was that it was a big thing and it was done and I was very surprised because I listened to the earnings calls and most of it is Tim Cook basically reading the statement they put out half an hour earlier saying everything's great regardless of whether it is or not so he seems to take it to heart am I missing out on something or is he just sensitive no I mean it is a big thing right it's it's fow reporting it's required by law it is Big showman time it is Tim Cook on the stage as much as he is a WWDC or the iPhone event and he does it four times a year whether he wants to or not whether he's got a head cold or the sniffles or not and you've got analysts who are not looking at the company's holistic hole for the most part they they look at what they want to see from an investment pers and that's okay for them right that that's fine that's their job that's what they do their their business is telling people how to make money fine I wonder is there an argument that analysts go on to ask questions the earning call so that they can say they've been like because I have had times listening when the next analyst asks exactly the same question as the one before so this year like every other time like every single other earnings report that I've ever listened to has had analysts ask the same question two or three or four times and they get the same answers and I don't are they just not listening to the first part of the conference call are did they not look at Apple's briefing information before they attended this conference call it it's not like Tim is is going to suddenly say in the event oh yeah by the way tomorrow we're having a Mac event that's not what this is for right there there has not been information out of an earnings event that has spilled Hardware or apple feuture plans Beyond oh hey we're doing a thing that hasn't been public knowledge for a while it's again you know I sound critical of these and it's because I am they're they're a lot of work and not a lot of gain they they are good for investors sure but for the average Apple user you're not going to learn anything by listening to this ear I'm kind of fascinated by no as a show yes that thing of four analysts in a row asking the same thing and that has happened and it always happens at least a couple uh Apple every time will then answer the question and exactly the same way it did before and makes me wonder is the you s a legal requirement uh calls last for an hour are they legally required run for 60 minutes and so apple is happy to just Pat out as long as they can no apple says they'll run 60 minutes and but I'm sure that they're happy to Pat out when they get another question that's a repeat I I don't think I don't think cooker MYRY care that a question is repeated they're just going to say the same answer and just look and see what time is Miller time okay all right so anyway we look at it then um Apple's fine really and we can look forward to more new devices in the future actually I should say which reminds me app plus this week is uh how to phrases it's kind of about old devices in the past if you're a subscriber I'm going to be taking you through Apple's power books and the surpr I think surprising impact they had I mean I'm surprised I was there I owned many a power book and there were things I'd forgotten such as which ones caught on fire uh to listen to Apple Insider plus and you get an adree version of podcast as well you can subscribe via patreon or apple podcast and it would be great to have you but now this week forget the future forget the past this week Apple intelligence is finally here in beta sort of a bit Mike did you install iOS 18.1 and the rest yes and let me be a cautionary tale for you all so I have a MacBook Air which is my secondary testing machine and my portable machine I've spoken about it before if you would like you can go back and read my long-term M3 MacBook Air review that published about two weeks ago the it absolutely destroyed the operating system the first time it it booted but I could not get it to stay not crashed from goodness so I had to wipe the machine I had to reinstall everything and then it was fine which is okay but had I cared about the data on that machine it was gone so if you don't need to have these betas now do not install these betas I cannot be more clear about that I I cannot express that more firmly than I want to I it's it's just I have such strong opinions that if you don't need it don't use it right now let other people get the Flaming data for you let other people crash and dig that hole in the ground I I know you're right obviously and many years ago I bricked an iPad and it was I got it back but it's very very horrible I think it was my main machine even at the time it just couldn't have been worse and I don't know why I was that stupid but it does seem to me that just talking to you generally you always have problems with beas and I might do or might not so actually so far I had the odd bug but nothing remotely serious on the Mac or the iPhone um for it so it seems very odd that we you and I with similar setups would have massively different situations but I suppose this just points to how delicate be to software must be I also think that you and I test different things rapple Insider I do a lot of drive enclosures and things like that and for most of the raid enclosures there's specific software for that so in regardless right it's an operating machine that that MacBook Air is is a testing machine I use it my main machine is a Mac Studio that is my testing machine and travel machine because it's important I think with the stuff I'm testing that I run it in a desktop environment and a laptop environment just given use Pro Hardware these days but it it's any beta is there's a million different factors that could cause problem you don't want to be the guy that finds it no so but going back to the original point the the Apple intelligence stuff the writing tools are nice Malcolm wrote a piece about how it Compares versus gramly the long the short of it is it's when it rolls out in full it is probably enough you probably don't need that $100 a year grammarly subscription any but it's still really early like the Siri editions haven't been made there there are a couple of nods to it like the interface with the with the glowy outline is is in and that's fine but that's just that's just Graphics that's not use that's not use ability or anything so it's still really early and we're not expecting the features to roll to start rolling out until 18.1 and curious about something though I just said about our different experience with the beta I was thinking about crashes but also Malcolm did that whole thing about writing tools versus grammarly when I went into writing tools there are a couple things I can do but they at the proofreading one the main one it does absolutely nothing on my it just sits there I mean unless I just write perfectly or something and that's that's what it is isn't it it's telling me and no that that is not what it is but I appreciate you saying so it it's it's they're like it's beta right it's it entirely possible that the model that the it needs hasn't fully downloaded because after you're approved on the Apple intelligence waiting list there is a download afterward for all the stuff to be enabled it's and it's not a tiny one but you still have to have it if you don't have it you even though you're in the beta and have succeeded congratulations you're off the weit list now you have the features you still have to get that model and if you don't have it you're that explains why I noticed things suddenly appearing after a few hours and actually one after a day and things uh so actually stuff I really I mean the thing I really like is Apple Mail and the way the inbox listing almost always shows a summary now instead of the first few lines and there's some Oddities about it but generally that is so useful and actually I think that's illustrative of why Apple intelligence is good it I don't have to go out to mail GPT and ask it something just takes something good and makes it a bit better and I think that's great but I've been a bit no about the rest of it so I am concerned a great deal about AI summarization tools right they do they do a good job in summarizing the article or two or email or two in a paragraph or two yes they do but you're losing a lot of the message you're losing presentation you're losing the intent of the writing so great I guess if you're in a super hurry that you can't take 13 seconds and read your email like we get thousands of emails at Apple Insider a day and if you rely on the summaries these emails from PR people sound like the best thing in the world but they're not right they're they're they're PR pitches for things that we would never cover yeah to be fair though when you read the full thing they still try to make it sound like the greatest okay I I will never um I won say I'll never use Su I there's thing in apple May where you go in you can press a summarized button I don't care if I've gone in there I'm just going to read it but the inbox thing Quick Glance does this look important that's useful except I I am seeing problems uh an email of mine was kind of badly summarized uh it made it sound like um it's basically that I was reluctant uh initially reluctant to do something but it agreed but the truth is it was my idea uh the whole thing so it was just 100% wrong and there's a company I I don't want to work with and Apple's rewriting to make it friendly made it sound like I did want to work with them which is like very friendly and I can't rely on it but at bits at times I think it's I'm I'm finding the inbox handy at least so well but here's the thing that's why I was talking about tone and message right the the summarization is is is adequate but if you're relying on this to make decisions and respond to people without reading emails you're making a huge huge huge mistake please don't do that actually that's the thought I I I was quite taken with summaries I sound like I'm more positive than you but actually I agree except inbox yes but also uh there are times uh when I'm searching a lot of sites for a lot of things and on Safari the way that it would summarized article I think would at least help me think have an assessment is it worth reading this full 10,000w article or now or not but I don't get saari highlights uh for some reason um and I know other people do so perhaps it's just cuz I'm in the UK and I've haven't finished the last button or something but have you used Safari highlights does it work for you yes but the problem is is and it's the problem is not specifically with apple here the problem is is how everyone is adopting this technology so you've got this 10,000w article you're trying to figure out if it's worth reading or not so you use the AI tool to summarize for it so you're on their page for a second or less you know this this stuff costs money to write the internet is not free there are people generating content on the internet like us yes that that one second is not even necessarily add Impressions it's not there's no time on the page which Google relies on a great deal to determine if content is worthwhile so heavy Reliance on AI summaries when you're consuming the internet is ultimately injurious to the internet and if you don't care about that that's fine it's a personal choice right we all use the tools we use for the reasons we use them and and that's fine but this is absolutely going to accelerate a decline in unique voices on the web there is no question about it online publishing has gotten perilous yeah we're good apple Insider's fine we we're not you know we're not having a problem but there are a lot of sites Apple sites that provide decent and good content that are not going to survive this and that's a shame that that's and it's and it's a shame because it's big Tech and big business deciding that they're going to make your life simpler and make sure that these sites get nothing for compensation for the 45 seconds that you might have taken to read this article instead of the one second that you took to read which may not be accurate right but apart from that um okay that got a bit bleak actually go from ble to silly I just said a thing about how I'm in the UK so it's different uh to be clear you can only get ios 18.1 if you're in the states or if your iPhone believes you are so I did I changed my region to the US changed my language to English brackets us and eventually realized I also had to send a series language to English US fine did all of that and at the moment it's most my Ione is left on this mostly because I can't be bothered to go through on doing it all but I'm shocked how many differences there are in iPhones between American states one is in the middle of the night I looked at my Apple watch and it was telling me the time was uh 404 not 0404 what I'm like I cuz I use 24-hour clock and apparently American stoned and my watch looked like a bit of the screen was broken and yesterday I'm in a conversation about how how what it is so I look up the weather app and apparently it was 79 de fahit I'm in England I have not one Thin clue whether that's hot or cold you know so I had to rely on whether I the temperature I felt was just terrible how do you Americans put up with all the wrong systems like that uh well I'm I have a master's degree in physical chemistry I am fluent in both okay what's 79 then in Celsius okay about 23 20 oh right actually that sounds quite low it seemed hotter anyway um another thing about iOS 18.1 on the beta is that it's uh one of two beas going on there is still the iOS 18 beta making its way through the developers and the public versions is this splitting of a beta thing new or has Apple done it before no they've done this before uh they notably they did this long ago when they introduced egpu support in 2016 2017 they they're running simultaneous betas even like the uh even like the iOS 18 so forth betas to test different aspects of it is it's not common but it's happened before like even like last week before the iOS 17.6 release on Monday they were doing iOS 17.6 and iOS 18 in parallel right so to some extent there's always multiple betas going on this time of year it seems a complicated way of doing it I mean if I'm working on the 18.1 beta and the 18 beta do something do I take their code do I test against it do I release it I I just keeping track sounds like a massive job I'm sure it is I here's the thing with apple though they have enough money to do all of them in parallel that's not a problem right and I think for the most part developers are safe testing one or the other I think they're safe testing iOS 18.1 or iOS 18.0 I there's not going to be gigantic differences in the code base as far as base functionality outside of Apple intelligence for 18.0 to 18.1 because that kind of defeats the purpose yeah the 18.1 is explicitly intended for Apple intelligence you forget sometimes or at least maybe all I mean is I forget sometimes that this is the purpose of the bu is to get to developers is to test things for them to do and and actually we will look forward won't we to great new features from good developers very soon yeah so y it's yeah I let's and again I want to be perfectly clear about this this these betas are for testing and given that the release of WWDC they are explicitly intended for Developers to throw their software at it and see so if you have a if you have a particular piece of software that you rely on for any aspect of your productivity let other people get that data for you do you think it's actually a bad idea that Apple has a public basa relas no I it's yeah not really there are still developers that are not big-time developers that still would like or need access to the software to test for this and and with anything and it's real clear in the terms this is a testron parallel kind of thing Apple can hand you the tool right they can hand you the hammer and the wrench but they frankly don't care if you use it to bludgeon yourself to death with I just I feel like in the last year or so I've been seeing more people doing using the beaters than I might have expected I um most recently yeah it's a bad my super guy in my car garage as he was billing me a lot of money for anot test we do here I noticed he was on the beta of iOS 15 16 18 one of those um and the year before I was a woman at a supermarket uh guarding the cash TR things who had the Snoopy watch face and we had a great time talking about that but I didn't dare ask her whether she was a developer on the side because I didn't want to frighten her if she wasn't yeah it's just there there's no support Apple's not going to support you other than if you Breck your device you can bring it in and they'll see if they can help you that's very big of them but there's no tech support for this there's no Aid for this you you get what you get so we already know that if you're an apple Insider podcast listener you are smarter than the average Bearer and that's great and you already know the risks and dangers of these betas but like Williams Clark Williams Clark person at the store they probably do not so reading this you're probably okay if your grandma's using it that's probably not okay right I think I might be bringing down the average intelligence said because um we will get great new features from developers in a few months right uh we have the starts of Apple intelligence now but we don't really have much of it yet um has there been anything that stands out to you as as a user as useful in this so not something uh that will become useful with developers yet but something you think right now actually I like that I wish I had it before I'm I'm going to deflect your question a little bit and I think what I like about Apple intelligence and how they're implementing it is the fact that they are considering user privacy and how they do it and what they like apple intelligence is not going to let you create a deep fake porn it it's not going to it's not deep with generative AI so if you if you need an artist talk to an artist that's fine when you use it to talk to chat GPT it anonymizes the search as opposed to if you have a chat GPT account they know every single thing that you asked and will happily use that however they see fit so my killer feature for Apple intelligence is that my killer feature is the fact that Apple's like whoa whoa let's slow down on this harvesting of data and this absolute lack of privacy on what you're telling it to do and let's let's deal with that on a device level that that is my best feature of Apple but hang on the one hand that the business with um not generating um photorealistic images that's what they don't do whatever they are you're saying that's Apple effectively encourage you to go to an artist and I agree but at the same time you're saying the whole thing of summarizing is does Apple just not like writers is that where this is coming from so text generation and writing is low hanging fruit everybody writes emails everybody writes school reports every there even if you are not a writer you are spending some of your day you know writer and I'm putting that in italics here with a capital W like William and I are writers we get paid to do his job you know this is not a hobby as much as people might like but everybody writes it it's like cooking there are chefs and there is the home chef and there's a huge difference between the two right and there's also I don't I don't know if this will make any sense to an American but there's uh there are chefs there are cooks and there's mine which is Pierce the lid in several places yeah that's that's yeah okay microwave cooking that's what you mean that okay I'm sorry but I interrupted you with triviality there can you remember your point no it's it's it's actually yeah you're you're you're making the point so if you're a parent for instance you have letters write back and forth to your kid school or the parent teacher Association or if you're at work you've got to tell Jim over in accounting that your expense report isn't back yet what the hell man so there there is a lot that people use for writing and I think that these tools used appropriately and not like a cudel are a net benefit do you think developers are going to put an add-on to this CU so right now the writing tools you have the options of friend ly professional and concise are they going to do some can some is there an API Andel can have uh threatening or something like that I quite like that no well I I in my experience I found that everyone writes a threatening email this right but the uh in all seriousness I do not believe there's presently an API I may be wrong about this there does not appear right now to be an way to change what Apple intelligence is giving you for cues for how to rewrite the uh so you know like I told uh scripts on the news the other day if you know your neighbor is is just being a total jackass maybe you want to get it out of your system in your first draft but maybe then you realize you're going to have to live next to this guy for 30 years and maybe the email you send him should not be look you piece of whatever you need to fix your thing instead it should be hey you know I was wanding through my yard the other day and I saw that the fence had collapsed at this point maybe we can get together and deal with that somehow that is a better more politic letter to send to this guy that you're going to have exposure to for the next however many that makes sense I'm thinking about your yard now and whether youve revealed neighborhood disputes there but a reason for having you on today well partly let's face it because Wes is on one of these holiday things but it was an excuse his absence I wanted you on because there are certain things what so many things that you know that I don't you said ear about we test different things um I always see you as the hardware guy and I know I'm a software guy but I think I read this week was that Apple has admitted to using Google tensor Hardware to train Apple intelligence it was the first time in my life I'd heard of Google tensor and I have no thin clue whether or not this is in any way significant what's a Google tensor and should I gu so Apple never really said before this paper how they were training the core of appin so if you're going to skip if this topic bores you and you're going to skip ahead two minutes the answer is this doesn't really matter because what Apple does with that model after the fact is what does the the fact that it was used on these dedicated artificial intelligence processing units is interesting in the fact that I I do not think that apple had any interest in sending this information across the cloud to Google regardless of how big that their internet pipe is I I am reasonably certain that even though Google doesn't sell the tensor cores to anybody I'm pretty sure they did for Apple in this case right people can say that you know oh apple is fighting with Google and fighting with Facebook for the dominance of the Internet it's business it's business meta fully knows for instance that the Apple Vision Pro brings mind share to that product category Google pays Apple a ton of money to be the default search Choice a ton of money billions so while the trenches may be filled on social media with fans or when other just coming to blows about this kind of thing the companies don't care the companies work fine together I mean and I this is another example I suppose I'm not surprised I just from the headlines thought is this drama and and no this show is sponsored by betterhelp better help is a therapy service that the rather fits our lives of being constantly connected and online but also so very often isolated it's an online therapy service which means wherever you are you can be connected to a therapist who is right for you that's and that's not some sort of idol claim either better help has over 35,000 therapists with every possible qualification and area of expertise plus before the service tries to match you up with one of those it asks you I think a really rather clever series of questions I some of them are obvious like you'd expect where are you that kind of thing but working through them helps you focus on your needs as much as it then helps better help find the right therapist it's a thorough process just the short opening question areas but you also finish it feeling I think feeling little less unsure uncertain kind of nebulous about your issues and then you get matched to a therapist and while you can choose to talk with them uh chiefly over messages or video calls it's always all online which means it suits your schedule that means you never need to skip a therapy day with better help providing help in a way that you can access without taking time out to go to an office without that adding to the stresses you have visit betterhelp.com slapple inssider today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com slapple Insider and thanks to better help for supporting the Apple Insider podcast but you just mentioned Apple Vision Pro and I realized that's another Reon I I finally here in the UK had my first demo of it and I actually told the guy at Apple who was excellent by the way that I had two friends one of them was you who uses it like once a month or something and otherwise it sits on the desk somewhere and the other is where who wears it for eight hours every day the Apple guy was crestfallen at you and delighted at w and I suppose we're not surprised but I need to know have you come around to where's point of view no yeah um I mean there are lifestyle reasons for that right I have children oh true and they're they're both on the autism spectrum at some point they're higher functioning but it still means I need to be a little more available as it pertains to caretaking and surveillance of the environment and the Apple Vision Pro isn't a big old cued headset right but it is still immersive yes so it is it is a little deeper than I care for and I've spoken about this at some length I the last time I was on this podcast I think I talked about it too if it it's just it's fine the technolog is interesting I like what Apple's done with it it's fun to watch movies in it but it's but if I'm going to watch something I've got three monitors in front of me one of them is a 32 in and two of them are 27 in right I I have more than enough screen real estate to do what I need without popping up a virtual 65inch Mac screen well actually how about this then you go to those screens in front of you you're done you're set but in maybe 6 weeks time or so we will you be buying another screen like shall we say iPhone sized so yes that that was a good segue by the way I like that that's very smooth it it it very clearly demonstrates that we both have passs and radio yes um the so yes I am okay uh do you I've never actually said I think do you upgrade every year I do not uh my I use I have the incredible privilege of being able to use these devices to help the feds assess what they what they need and what they have what should be recommended to people so for a period of time right after release I will get to use a a federal provided okay um I kind of curious about this but um it's Federal so there limit on what I can ask I knew you had that content I knew your history B but I didn't know this aspect of it how do you test out a phone from scratch that seems I mean for federal purposes that's are you even allowed to explain how you do it so you can ask me whatever you'd like right there's no prohibitions on what you can ask me there are prohibitions on what I can answer that's two entirely different things how much do they pay no no okay um well that I'm not sharing but the uh the so testing a phone there's a couple different aspects of it there's aspects of it that are secure that I test inside the facilities and that's usually the first week and there aspects of General use with a mobile device profile that I test after the fact that I'll test for a couple weeks after that so the after the fact testing is just walking around with the supermarket with a mobile device profile and make sure nothing I'm suddenly not exposed to the to the classified environment with the MDM in the middle of the supermarket right excellent so it it's no different than assessing a phone for Consumer use right you still got to look at the cameras you still got to look at Wi-Fi speeds you still got to look at 5G so it's the the valuation aspect is not as hard as you might think considering that year-over-year there's not an incredible Gap in performance or technology no no but um it's Federal so there must be forms to fill out things is there a section with check boxes with the color cuz that's got to be important to them oh no they don't care they you know when what is wrong with them when when I did this with the iPhone 5c I I got that terrible yellow color right you to forgotten that one yes so yeah they don't care they they get what they're supplied which is usually a shade of gray there's a r as we record this has just been a set of rumors of all of the colors for basically spoiling perhaps all of the colors uh for it and one of them uh maybe this is revealing of the one I'm drawn to the iPhone 16 Pro is said to have a black uh version and it already does the 15 Pro does but this is like very black um well right there don't forget there was the piano uh color in the iPhone 7 so there have been very blacks but I remember seeing uh wasn't there a difference in the black between I think it was the seven and the seven plus they were both black but one looked better than the other and I can't remember which way around it was yeah it's been like 18 lifetime yes okay you're you don't sound as drawn to black as I am but I don't care either right because I and this is I'm going to be frank about this everything I get a phone I put a case in it and I pick the case color based on it being contrast with my sheets so it's easy to find right that's so clever okay it's I don't care I mean I've had you know Rose the rose gold one is not typically been Associated as a masculine color don't care it's covered in a case it was very nice though wasn't it it was a very nice it was a very nice color you exactly ruined all that work work all that effort uh I go caseless um and I spend a lot of time thinking about the color but actually uh this slightly Segways into um appid plus things because um I remember when Apple brought out the titanium iPhone you it was like there was a split some people were listening to Apple saying titanium is brilliant and those the rest of us with longer memories we thinking that we've been here before uh there was a power book that was made of titanium and it was a bit rubbish it all you know was rittle the paint went off and things uh so far 11 months in they seem to have got it better with the iPhone yeah so this is complicated right the Apple did not do a great job on literally the paint on the titanium MacBook on the titanium uh was power book power book yes power book I I forget that was literally 17 yeah uh PowerBook G4 yeah it was the power book so the the material science is more than just the material it's also cating it it's also coloring it it's it's how you adhere it to something else like we're talking about the titanium iPhone 15 and yeah it's titanium but it's over an aluminum shell so you got these dissimilar Metals in contact with each other titanium is not a fun metal to to pigment or paint it never has been so why they made a G4 power book out of it I still to this day don't know because they had to know that that was going to be an issue on the coding they had to know so this is a hugely long conversation that we have touched on periodically but honestly most people don't care so we haven't delved into it that deep no I I worry about spending ,000 on a phone that's going to scratch like mad and going to pull apart but you know that hasn't happened in a long time for I should get over myself basically how about the inits of the you just said you could have been nicer there you could have reassured me but you didn't the inside uh I think you've written a piece on saying there's rumors that it will have Wi-Fi 7 in the 16 pro light up and I am skeptical about Wi-Fi 7 Apple just went just just iPhone 15 Pro went iPhone went a Wi-Fi 68 right and Wi-Fi 7 routers are stupidly expens uh so if you're looking at a Wi-Fi 7 router for your house expect to spend 700 bucks expect it but if the iPhone 16 Pro were to have Wi-Fi 7 would it be backwards compatible yeah of course okay you just wouldn't get the benefit of you just wouldn't get the benefits of the seven and perhaps not for years right because I have a Wi-Fi 6 Network in I do not have a 6E Network in this house because there's no point the looking at Wi-Fi 7 it's it's significantly faster or can be significantly faster than most of the Broadband in this country okay I honestly don't know what my network is but it's fast so so you can say it's future proofing sure but I there's not going to be wide adoption option of Wi-Fi 7 in the next four years so given the choice I should be rooting for Apple to finally bring proper 5G outside the US that's what I should be doing yeah yes that's complex too right that it it's in the US and it's easily deployed in the US because of the carrier situ there are less restrictions on many of the carriers to adhere to standards they could pick any one of a series of different 5G standards and just go with that and the minute you walk over the border and get 15 miles inside the Border oh well congratulations you're on a different wife you're on a different uh you're on a different 5G standard nice job this episode is brought to you by Oracle AI might be the most important new computer technology ever it's storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested so buckle up the problem is that AI needs a lot of speed and processing power so how do you compete without cost spiraling out of control it's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud infrastructure or oci oci is a single platform for your infrastructure database application development and AI needs oci has four to eight times the bandwidth of other clients offers one consistent price instead of variable Regional pricing and of course nobody does data better than Oracle so now you can train your AI model at twice the speed and less than half the cost of other CLI if you want to do more and spend less like uber 8 by8 and data bricks Mosaic take a free test drive of oci at oracle.com slapple inssider that's oracle.com slapple inssider Oracle o r a CLE e.com slapple Insider and thank you to Oracle for supporting the Apple Insider podcast America's complicated but how about this thing of course it is yeah this is something that I don't think there's even a pixel of a rumor of it coming to the UK but um this week it was announced that Ohio residents can put that can do the digital wall thing the driver's license and stuff uh for it I know Apple's been talking about that for a couple of years but is this the first one first date that's actually done it no this is I I want I I'm not really up on this one because it's one of those hey nice feature that doesn't actually do anything right like you can't give this ID to a cop that pulls you over no you still have to have your if if it if you still have to have your paper ID with you yeah then what is the point of having it on your phone right okay that seems okay it's probably a playing a long game here eventually the cops will happily take your phone away from you that's what they'll do really long game it it is if there is any kind of serious adoption of this by police for here's the thing right I live in Northern Virginia I live not that far outside the uh outside DC itself I am just outside the DC Beltway so I've got you know I live in next Hill so I don't have 5G but I have a good infrastructure I've got good technology I've got well-funded police departments and so forth but that is not the case everywhere in this country right so you can put your ID on your I phone but if you get pulled over somewhere in the middle of nowhere you are still going to need to have that paper ID even when police departments can accept it as because they they will still have to have done the technology upgrades and crucially paid the money to get that Hardware oh okay right that seems like Case Closed there that last bit uh okay well I'm a bit disappointed in the pointlessness of that but for some reason that makes me to this I'm sure it's the idea of being isolated somewhere out in the middle of the countryside somewhere but these days now or very soon you never have to be alone anymore because you can have a friend with you oh my God that friend pendant I think it might work I because it makes me instantly of tamagachi which I didn't get into but I obviously so many people did uh people are going to sit there with their friend pendant and yeah okay I you're and your technolog is going to tell you that you suck at a game yeah that worried me a little bit it's supposed to be encouraging and friendly and happy and shares with you and the example where you're rubbish at this game or that guy's going to leave you all right it didn't say that but it looked like it was going to in the advert for it so yeah but they spent a lot of money on the URL which I I presume actually I realized I don't know I presume the URL is friend.com um that sounds worth 1.6 million billion whatever it was so let let's think about this for a minute this is a $99 Bluetooth mic with no subscription okay what are they doing with what you tell it oh you're not doubting them oh I am completely doubting them I I think this is I think this is surveillance capitalism it it's look sometime over the last 15 years people people have forgotten how to people right having friends is important and if you think that an AI is your friend great if that helps you great but think about how the company is paying for all the internet related services that this needs to work with where are they getting that money it's not going to be 99 bucks okay I thought it was silly now I think it's scary okay it's both right I mean it is silly it's ridiculously silly but the surveillance cap capitalism aspect of it really really bothers me there must be um legislation there must be something where they have to report what they do or am I just being so naive okay silly William right there's not oh all right hang on it works with an iPhone doesn't Apple that presumably means there's an iPhone app won't that app have to fess up to Apple about whatever it's doing with privacy sure but just because you know that it's taking your data doesn't mean doesn't make that any better right and so we know about the Privacy cards right we know what Apple says but how often do you think your grandma well more than you'd think yeah no okay that's true all right so their hope is uh everybody will hear about it and nobody will look too closely I I it's hard to tell right now right because this is vapor this is a slickly produced video that doesn't talk about response times or when the device decides to chime in or anything like that right so this is marketing copy right now and that's all it is but what show me what the sustainable privacy maintaining moneymaking chain you I was surprised how little marketing copy there was about it when I went to look at the website it's there is the ad and there's precious little else with it so it felt oddly rushed given that it's well funded and that video is well made I know okay and and tell me what the safeguards are that this pendant isn't going to tell you to jump off for Bridge cuz you're really sad right okay yeah we should ban all uh basically we should ban everything I mean didn't we learn this week that find my is in fact a terrible terrible thing um I feel I said this to you when I should step back and and listen to the rant no or or or are you calm about this now I am calm about this just because of Tim Sweeney's history he so I he woke up that re that morning and chose violence for whatever the reason he decided that his core principles logic was worth repeating and which is ludicrous because it absolutely was not uh just to be clear what he actually said was um let me get the phrasing right uh years and years ago somebody stole a laptop of his a Mac laptop presumably um and here he was playing with find my all these years later and fine my told him where his stolen Mac was this therefore is awful and surveillance and I'm struggling to understand that but you feel he should have just I think it if he has to but not bother saying it sure I mean everyone has those intrusive thoughts that upon retrospect you go oh well hey maybe not right I mean it happens it's life we have fleshy brains that do what they want right the but yeah how how can you get to a point where you say oh the guy who stole my laptop deserves his privacy more than I deserve to know where my stolen MacBook you get there by being a mench really that's what it is and why was he screwing around on fine my anyway if he's so concerned about the Privacy implication uh why was he screwing around on it now instead of when the laptop was stolen a few years ago too many questions here the guy in this case I swear he woke up and said you know what I hate Apple today and I'm gonna go take an enormous steaming dump on X about something okay I'm sorry I'm just thinking enormous steaming dump could be the title of this episode but let's not go there this is a family show yeah I don't think okay all right so he did it and I actually thought you I quite like the responses he got they were all basically yeah so nobody seem to be being particularly rude or mocking for it it was just you know this is a strange thing to say because of this reason or that reason and I thought then he started a response where he's going to say yeah you're right actually I oversteep this what was I thinking of and instead he agreed with everybody but tripled down on it um yeah oh yeah at least tripled yes so okay yeah it's dumb Tim you're not listening this podcast but if forever the reason somebody forges you and says that we were talking about you just delete it is not too late yeah I have it's not that I think Tim Cook listens to us but I mean I I think I've said this to where whenever I'm listening to uh you the um iTunes Apple music playlist where it curates my favorite Tunes I'm listening to One I think I'm not in the mood for it now but if I skip it Tim Cook is at Apple Park going oh he doesn't like this one as much we won't play it to him again later that that's how I see it all working please don't shatter Illusions Fair yeah yeah with one laugh he shatters Illusions okay Illusions how about this then um I think there's a category of ghost apps because I learned this week that Twitter for Mac has left the Mac App Store and hand on heart I had no idea that there was a Twitter for Mac I it hasn't been updated in forever right in forever so all credit to people for noticing but it feels like it's a Scooby-Doo think of it's not there um uh is it a great loss to humankind no it's really not there it it's best as a is a web service or phone app anyway the Mac App didn't really so the Mac App used to be good used to have a bunch of features like scheduling and and all this other fun stuff that they then L put behind the pay wall and made it impossible for the app to do right so it used to be better than it died right but it it it finally died honestly I'm not even sure Twitter pulled or X pulled this off the App Store I think that Apple may have automatically pruned it since it hasn't been updated in I don't know I think it's been four years it's probably not downloaded in three so yes okay it's the sh shame when an app vanishes though even if basically I didn't ever use it it clearly still seems wrong so no real loss I mean it's historically notable it it's interesting to talk about but as far as a functionality law okay none there's really no loss here well how about this last thing I want to ask you your opinion about because I think this could be interesting pull my head out of the past and into the future we've just run an article on Apple Insider about a new payent application which is uh it actually looks like it's a lot to do with the Apple Vision Pro but the more you get into it it isn't it's about the kind of gestures that Apple developed for the Apple Vision Pro for being applied to anything and I think in particular some of the the illustrative drawings show basically a Mac with it fine so control your Mac through gestures great clever it suddenly occurred to me as I was looking into this that this could be a way for Apple to never do a touchscreen Mac because they've always had this thing that you have to reach up and press the Mac it's ergonomically bad and PC manufacturer seem to be fine with it but Apple's no no no here they you can sit back wave at your cursor and it will do it is this actually the clever future that they are going to come out and do their thing of this is how it should always be done other developers please note so famously there is a peripheral for the Xbox 360 called The Connect kect or was it didn't really work well it was a it was a sensor that would detect your gestures it they was used for games like Just Dance where it could see you dancing in your room to to the tune um it it didn't work well it didn't work great it was not a hugely adopted feature on a desktop versus a living room I think there are more utilities for it uh but I think it will be a user habit kind of thing I think that going from 2D gestures on a trackpad to 3D gestures in the air in front of your Mac will become more natural as Apple vision technology ADV it is this is very clearly Apple hedging their bets and seeing if the Paradigm the user interface paradigms that they develop for Apple Vision will transcribe will transcribe well over to a desktop computer or a laptop or something it it's it's logical right doing these gestures and interfacing in 3D is logical plus I got to admit um when I used to work on a PC I would gesture at it quite a lot but maybe not in the way we're thinking think different we already have that thing now of um in a video conference uh I mean I can't remember the last time I saw anyone intentionally put balloons behind them or stick their thumbs up but the number of times I've scratched my nose and it's put up a thumb thing for me so it's already we're on the way this is the future here yeah today that seems okay those gestures are easy to spot right those are relatively simple they're thumbs up and so forth so those are big sweeping gestures and the research that you wrote about today is more more refined stuff like the pinch gesture that Apple Vision Pro uses to say grab an icon on your desktop and move it over got so it'll be interesting to see if this develops it's not a tomorrow technology it is going to take some time and it's going to take some refinement like Apple's already made refinements the UI inle from 1.0 to 2.0 and I that there's no reason to expect that that's going to change I mean look how much the Mac desktop is change that's true I've got to say I'm really impressed with apple Vision Pro's controls it seems so natural move around instantly like all of it so they did a great job there but yeah yeah well um okay uh where can people find you if they need to track you down about anything we've talked about today that's ominous but okay uh I am Mike corw worthly app.com it'll be linked in the podcast post and that is probably the best way to contact me if uh if you want to uh do the opposite and not hunt me down but in some way find celebrate me I don't know all the good stuff to me I I'm at William at appleinsider.com and again links in the podcast Mike thank you very much for this very good talking to you um please remember everybody there is homekit inside there every Monday and actually also uh don't forget that in just a moment there's app inside of Plus for subscribers but in the meantime thank you very much for listening thanks as well to our sponsors better help and Oracle and we'll see you next time talk to you next time\n"