We live in Star Trek it's like we have this 3d printer all in one room they can all be working at the same time that's my blowing yeah it is very cool so we'll be doing more testing with that yeah lots of people of great ideas like I think the trick I'm finding is try to make laser like try to get out of get out of your system the standard laser cut things right I'm getting all like the getting all the I get all aligned arc and all the etching engraving photos like then start thinking of like what does it mean to do mixed-media what does it mean to use the laser cutter to and you know to cut felt or to cut foam yeah or to fabricate or fabric or or but different materials and combine it with what you can do with the 3d printer right if you design in your models like recesses to do in lays lays for these are cut pieces how do you start building with I mean there's yeah again you you kind of get any any tool I mean I collect tools and it's you know each one of those gives me more capabilities and it's it's yeah it's inspiring

I look at all of these things is like okay now that I have one more bit of you know technology I can do even more stuff and like I said layering I think is really the key your wife Danica is a crafty maker yeah yeah showing an interest in there's some felt this weekend that's cool I recommend micro suede micro suede yeah so it's it's it's a synthetic suede like material but it has a really nice edge and it also edges really cool so you can match the micro suede it gives you a good contrast oh and then for being a fabric it works worked really nicely thank you buy it online you can very cool awesome pics of recognition sure anything else you guys want to talk about I'm testing I've been you know III my latest thing has been teaching I started teaching a class over the college over in Oakland and I've been testing all kinds of hardware to teach people how to build things and that's been a fun it's it's funny you kind of get out of the sort of Hobby world when you're doing things professionally and then everyone small you kind of peek over the fence and you go hey what's the latest in Arduino and what's the latest in sort of always a little you know project boards and what's out there and it's amazing I mean I just just in a year or two of not paying as close attention as I should you know there's there's all kinds of cool wearable devices and little boards that support all the latest chips you know when there's a new mp3 decoder or some new light sensor or some new it's like there's there's always this you know kind of new new crop of hardware that comes out so you know going through Sparkfun and ADA fruits website just kind of seen what's out there has been been a lot of fun and and I now have an excuse to sort of browse and say oh I should try these out

so lots of lots of little bits of hardware been lots of fun something I couldn't find from either those guys was a galvanic skin response yeah measuring system yeah I found one that seed Oh a seed is great in China yeah I I bought a couple of those being super cheap like 30 bucks you gonna hook them up to your kids just find out if they're telling lies yes you can grill them oh okay well thank you so much Zack for coming by we're having me people find you online build cool stuff calm I don't do a lot on the social media as much I do have a Twitter account which i think is build cool builds builds stuff Zack build cool stuff sack I don't know I don't even see I don't even remember what it is if you need to get ahold of me build cool stuff calm there's lots of links on there to email all right thank you again we got to have you back and we'll get that full orange story I mean people love you having you on and instead of having you on I love being here and we love hearing about things you make

and if you're in town in San Francisco this week the Saturday please come by and check us out we're at the Castro theatre at 7:00 p.m. tickets are as low as 15 bucks if you wanted to watch us do some stuff on save Adam has a really great talk but he's going to give a good presentation so hope to see you there tickets are at tested at 2017 eventbrite.com and until then we have an outro from then ill all right here we go there was nothing underneath her it was amazing I mean it was amazing I build stuff Zac there you go that's my Twitter

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enthis week's episode of this is only a test is brought to you by a privy are you moving your business to office 365 working the cloud can make your life a lot easier but getting help that's another story that's why you should try a prefer they have one of the most experienced support teams in the business you'll get free us-based support from folks who care about helping you and actually know how and if you're going with office 365 go with App River try it at River services free for 30 days by going to app river comm slash test that's appr iv'e our.com slash test for thursday october twenty-fifth two days before our live show three days before our live show welcome to this is only a test the official podcast of tested calm hello and welcome everyone to a very busy week of the tested office indeed I'm norm joined by Jeremy Williams hello Norman and hello good morning and a very special guest returning for second third time on their Zak riding I use that I'm excellent thanks for having me again absolutely and thank you for joining us cuz sure is taking this week off because he is busier than anyone we know he's not taking the week off no no just in the podcast he runs the Bay Area Science Festival which our live show is a part of so he is actually frantically making phone calls setting thing ups making things happen so we can have a great week of festivities that's isness as usual for to sure absolutely extra busy yes yeah and he listens to the podcast too so maybe he'll you'll appreciate all the kudos we're giving him thank you cash or but Zak how are things going excellent things are busy as always busy with work busy with fun you know building lots of things being this builder an ability professional maker of things I do yes that's what pays my bills yeah so if you missed any of the two up past two episodes that Zak was a guest here a quick overview you are a contract for hire maker designer prototype prototype er of physical objects exactly so mechanical electronic you name it if if you need need a thing I'm good at making those things you found a way to make making a profession I know I did somehow I just kind of kept doing it and then you know freed up something that would pay me for it it sound really yeah cool stuff at your website do cool stuff calm so what do people come to you for whatever people completing for that you can talk about recently all the reasons the hard one in like the product development or any kind of development it's like oh yeah nobody wants you to talk about their stuff you know I it I can more talk about the stuff that I always come up with I mean that's that's the easy one you still do a plenty of site project for projects on your honor absolutely I'm you know I love making you know puzzles and games and last time I was here we talked about I built a a camping trailer a little teardrop trailer though all done that's all done well done is a relative term I get like all projects that are passion projects you know you always want to improve you kind of you know you look at it you use it a couple times go oh well if I had more shelves or more drawers or more whatever right you know I need to add more solar powers really with the you know Oh does it have solar panels it has solar panels there's a refrigerator in the back so I can keep my ice cream cold when I'm out in the desert you took it to Bernie MIT I did take it that was kind of the it ended up being a Burning Man project even though it didn't set out that way it was like up to you know the last minute right before the night I left was you know working on the trailer had a drastic dramatic shortage of LEDs if it was really a burning no LEDs are not nearly enough LED and probably not you know no fur no no fun accessories but it was it was actually really great for the desert I can be cool trust us is it all the way out there I have been it absolutely I found all the loose bolts as I went I kept kind of I would drive about you know two hours and then go around and check all the bolts make sure they were still tight you know actually found a couple loose ones so yeah that was a good stress test it worked and looking forward to keep using it Congrats panel aw thanks you know where does it live now yeah it lives in the core of my shop so huh did you take it through a big car wash when you came back I did I took it through a car wash and then still spent you know a good couple hours finding all the the dust apply a dust that seems to hide everywhere there's still applied to us you never get rid of playa dust it's it's kind of like matter you cannot destroy it to another yeah everyone right after Burning Man every other price goes up the price goes double from Burning Man your car washed and it cost a little bit more if you go Zach's website that's build cool stuff calm there's a project's page and look and it has some of the projects that you're thinking we can talk about remember what's up there I feel funny because a lot of these products are things that we've use or have you even used recently for example we were just toying around with the structure sensor oh yeah a couple weeks ago and you did some work for that I did let's see boy that's been four or five years ago cuz I you know again ice I come in the beginning of the design cycle so by the time it actually makes it to market I mean still a couple years old as you know as a product but it's a cool little device so I worked on some of the original interface of the primeSense sensor or some of the battery stuff some of the communication with the iPhone or iOS device and and yeah I did some of the board layout in there yeah it was it was a really fun project and actually that was the first time I got to play with structured light you know sensing so 3d sensing through projection of lots of little dots and learning how that all works and and that's it's it's it's a pretty cool technique for a lot of things now is it was in connect and it's in basically your iPhone will have a similar feature 30,000 dots 30,000 dots exactly yes staring into those lasers they and then they have to do a lot of things to make sure that you don't get blind by that or it doesn't burn itself up there's actually I mean I don't know about in the iPhone but I know in the prime sense sensor there's like active cooling you know because the little laser diode takes you know so much energy to send out that much that much light so there's all kinds of complexity in it so Noor mentioned a project last week about computer vision not prime sense but this standard computer vision a computer playing pinball oh yes and that made me want to do that for real I mean this we should do that that seems like a project would you depth-sensing for them know the game but I guess you use you can assume you can assume if there's a multi levels yeah yeah you probably can figure that out okay story here I was at a event science hack day hackathon two day event and one of the projects that came out the suit event was a pinball robot that had a webcam looking just at the flippers so like the bottom you know fifth of the the pinball the play field and they coated it enough so that if the ball got close to the flipper before 20 hole it would activate yeah see but I think that's the beginning right I mean you can think of all the ways as pinball nerds you guys think of all the ways that you need to strategize like the end goal what your brain is going through and as you're watching a ball run around the play field but even the bare minimum of looking down at the flippers yeah the things you'd want to measure angle velocity vector do those calculations that non-trivial well it isn't it isn't that's the cool thing about technology these days like there's so much you know standing on the shoulders of giants you know with open CV and and sort of all these packages for doing that sort of vision processing and then you know you can you can easily build up those things with kind of off-the-shelf hardware now I mean again ten years ago it was really hard but now you can do it in the weekend or even in a couple hours and get the basics but then but the real magic is taking the brain out of you know somebody that is a pinball wizard and making it actually good so that's a would you do that way would you take all of Jeremy's knowledge and his experience you couldn't have fit that or would you let the system she learn the Atari experimental would let like they they didn't teach the game how to play the Atari 2600 games they just said computer here's and learn how to play it the beauty with pinball is the metric is pretty easy yeah keep the ball in play yeah and and try to score it has a metric built in so the I mean it's almost a perfect AI computer learning you know setup I think that'd be a fun project it's not about needing to get the high score in this amount of time as long as you keep it alive there's no time of it there is no time well I guess the thing you couldn't account for is the slots on the side the holes on the side like you want it you'd want to find a way you want the machine learning to find a way to get you the trajectories and velocities to not because that's that's area where you have no control over well I guess you know a player is constantly nudging the table so with the AI would you put a nudge table constantly what does that walk in the line between tilt and nudging how would you describe the difference between a tilt the knife I tilt your balls over that's it because the tilt sensor in there there's actually a little tilt Bob that swings right right right so your whole body is braced against them the table yeah well that's in there because if you shake the game it's an advantage so you or you'll make the ball last those are your micro nudges like what is I don't know what is that what is the computer capable of get me wow that's a lot the other project that I wanted to call I actually enjoyed some of this yesterday you work for a smitten ice cream I did it's I'm actually wearing some smitten schwag all right they open a new shop in the in the mission yeah okay so it's a pop but we actually covered so four people don't know and we have a lot of requests about like recommendations for things that you have you're in San Francisco or if you're in the Bay Area because there are so many things to do and one of the things I always tell people is that we have a lot of we're kind of like peak boutique ice cream right now like there's even a museum Hoppa and there's a I think there's a third peak coffee right once one small batch coffee what was over now that so mainstream I know and now it's about small batch ice cream but we had covered back in 2012 when they had their first pop-up it was pulled out of a shipping container yeah it was a Robin su sure sure yeah that's right the founder she had started this liquid nitrogen ln2 ice cream machine absolutely and now they have like storefronts and so I once one yesterday and I didn't realize you would work on it so what did you do for them I did a number of things over the years kind of help with their whole process and and kind of improve their machines that the ice cream is sort of one piece of it but they're actually a technology company and in addition to just making really good ice cream so they've actually built these custom machines to make their ice cream they call them burn machines with lots of bars and others I remember went back when they were called the Kelvin that's a few versions ago but I actually helped work on the machines and some of the algorithms that are in there in between the conversion from Kelvin to the burr and then help them gather data so that they can monitor their machines and send out recipes to different shops and realize the whole infrastructure yeah it's for recipes it's not just about the the rate at which you pour it solvers it's all kinds of factors to make that perfect you know perfect scoop of ice cream and they really take the time to do it and they're really perfectionist when it comes to their ice cream so it's really shows the design and they're not a sponsor but I love the design of theirs their storefront because like how fancy can you make and how high-tech can you make an ice cream shop but you walk in first of all they have like you see a giant liquid nitrogen tank in the back just like expose it's not a high-tech shop at all it has this really good homey kind of like country feel but mixed with this right but it's it's exposed it's like going to a brewery and you see yeah the vets you see they'll and then on the outside you actually see where like the truck pulls up plug it in and and if you come early in the morning you'll see that kind of all frosted over cuz it ya know it's a really fun fun store not just because they're a customer of mine and it's just kind of a neat need organization they make really good ice cream that's not really cool yeah we're not gonna go into the full conversation of like how you got to do what you've got to do but someday we'll get it done yeah yeah yeah yeah let's let's talk about some some pop culture going live show no oh well yes I mentioned at the top our live show is this Saturday that's what we're all planning on right now everyone in this room is gonna be there either be on stage or to watch and we hope to see you there it's in San Francisco at the Castro theatre what tickets are it's so slim tickets available I think at a tested 2017 eventbrite.com to see you there and Sean and Jeremy have a project that they tested yesterday mm-hmm it works yep whatever excited is it means 100% it will work on stage excitement yeah 100 was that your confidence your the amount of confidence you felt was whirring yes you the fact that I felt confident right was definite right because that means it is not Murphy's Law is gonna play effect and sometimes new potentially go wrong so be there for that and if you're not at our live show I know I'm the only thing you'll be doing is probably watching stranger things - yeah which comes out this Friday or you'll be hungover from watching it the night before yeah so do you binge watch it or do you make it last you know I'm of the mind you gotta make this one last mmm you're mean it's such a big deal so the reviews reviews have come out for the second season and they have been glowing I have not read the actual reasons I've just read the summary that the reviews are great so no I don't want it only the headline I don't trust ya the review like even the spoiler free reviews give too much yeah and they're trying their clever ways to avoid spoilers but the timing is perfect coming up like right before Halloween yeah I don't want to spend my entire Sunday watching this show and like burning myself out I'm gonna take it maybe two episodes at a time why do you think they do these reviews this was such a hit on Netflix I see the reviews are to get people who I mean even though Netflix views you put ubiquitous there's still a lot of growth to be had even in the United States you mean for subscriptions yeah yeah and they want to make sure the people who are subscribed are gonna watch everything even if they're not in the quote-unquote target market yeah but don't you think that there would have been enough reviews if they'd hadn't released it earlier that the people who professionally write for papers and websites that they would have reviewed it including companies have to exist for a reason I'd say the marketing for I think it's still that engine that is still based on you know how movies are released it's like okay if we if we have initial focus groups that say it's good okay then we'll let it out a week early to get to reviewers right you can always tell those movies are gonna be flops because there's no measure no they don't really yeah so like Netflix has a I don't know if it's a problem I mean you mean South Park made a joke that they approve everything and there's buying up shows and producing so much but there's so much that goes by because it is the binge method right and like stranger things maybe the hot thing this week maybe building up to it but it may be coming completely different but they want to make cultural they want to win awards and they want to have cultural phenomenons and like stranger things was a cultural phenomenon last year so for sure it makes sense for them to tap into that now what year why do you think I mean is there any advantage to them - for people to binge-watch it versus do an episode you're questioning their entire well no no no their model is is streaming content and but the release schedule release schedule like that that has always kind of puzzled me if I was like you kind of think you would still have as many eyeballs but if you stretch it out over a long period of time but they just give us these like massive doses and I almost get like an overload of media when they release this what it is for me is I feel competitive with everyone else because to get caught up because I want to be on track with everyone that's a said for going into test into one week and you know catching up on the latest Star Trek discovery because that's as far as you could go right but here you can did you watch the whole season or not how how much can I talk about if it made the calculated risk that the watercooler week-to-week is is only valuable if you're an HBO model where you're producing you know your staggering all your releases they want the value proposition to be so front and center but I guess it's anticipation once versus anticipation on a weekly basis and I feel like that I miss that but education on a weekly basis only is valuable on the HBO model if you know you're not gonna be it's not 12 shows at the same time it's like two or three at most staggered you know West world's gonna be a this block to be more interested in a lot of content as well right right but Netflix it's it's all stacked yeah yeah and well Voltron they split up they shoot like seven episode seasons about six months apart but I like that too and I like splitting up I think starship Discovery's doing that as well where they're taking a 13 episode fourteen episodes in and spending up the two halves I think it's production companies playing it safe because if it's a flop then they are only spending their only doling out half their money at a time but their pocket I think it's playing it safe for the subscription model too because then you don't want people to just subscribe for that one or the one month row and then onto a binge and then not be subscribe and unsubscribe after the trial month because they need to give people reason to keep it on for at least a year yeah so they have those considerations though if you look at my HBO subscription schedule it obviously you actually I do I'm like I get my I get my fix and then I'm like alright well now that's that's why they sometimes make it very difficult for people to cancel yeah I mean it's it's not easy for people to call in and cancel the cellphone subscription like HBO I think it's better it's good they make it pretty make it's kind of nice yeah almost on-demand but they bank on most people just leaving it lazy yeah that's 15 bucks a month 13 bucks a month that sounds like Oh a month audibles like they'd do the same thing like oh in terms of like the credits yeah that's accumulate like the only way you should ever buy a book from audible is as a member because it's so much cheaper and so I'll sign that to be member and then if I remember I will cancel but if I don't six credits in my account Wow and speaking of Star Trek discovery that has now been renewed for a second season all right so that's surprising I think yes to me because how expensive they said this show was gonna cost exactly like ten million dollars in episode or I don't know because that may be that was that's not for every episode but in the multiple millions of dollars or episodes is in that Game of Thrones you know HBO price range and CBS all access is not as design as high stature so as HBO go or HBO so so you have to wonder are they making their money apparently I mean they they have making enough to warrant it and at least it's getting enough of making their surface relevant so I don't think it's gonna I don't think they're making it all the way back now it's curation on my part but it makes their service relevant and makes gets people talking about it so that when they're ready to announce more shows and and know that they're gonna be doing more shows they are yeah okay they're already doing two right now and then their plan is I mean oh no it's so important they gotta be filling this those holes in do you expect season one to come to terrestrial TV so that was the other thing I was thinking I think so I think they're gonna release season one on I mean just like HBO releases and Netflix even Netflix releases their shows on blu-ray right like you can subscribe or you can buy it on blu-ray yeah Star Trek discovery is formatted in a way that there's room for the commercial breaks they're like they they pause they fade out and fade in and it feels like they have commercial breaks so used to that from Netflix think about it that's interesting like I'm watching next-gen or something where they do that right right right but a Netflix show doesn't really Netflix show just goes on it's known our movie yeah yeah but discovery actually I don't know if you notice it but actually does like the fader I don't know if it's a stylistic thing to me I feel like a Star Trek show yeah or if it's built in into this the act 1 act 2 act 3 structure for commercial breaks but it feels like they could do commercial breaks are all the episodes exactly the same life that's I don't mean down to the minute yeah that'd be a tell yeah I mean they would read it they have no problem if they were gonna do like a thrust or broadcast your reality game or do a big sponsored by I put in a bad time right time slot and say free from Crosman where it breaks this thing sponsored by this company night tide cleaning for your Star Trek shirts I don't know yeah are you watching sort of discoveries that I'm not again it's that is that cheap side of me it's same thing that's cancelling okay I'm like I'm actually waiting for it to come out in in a in a set where I can get on Amazon or some other service just to binge binge watch it but but yeah I mean I'm gleaning enough from friends and family that that are into it that that I know that it is my my style of entertainment just I can't there's nothing else on CBS that I can't write about yeah so who is it will when will was here he said he was subscribe to see us all access before a Star Trek aired because they were right demographic for the CSI shows or the Big Bang Theory or whatever like is it is the flavor I'm sure there is a large part it's a not nonzero who part of the population because will at least yes just a man is this room maybe not as much yeah yeah all all trek yeah but maybe if you're not subscribed to CBS all access you can spend that money elsewhere maybe buying a Nintendo switch and playing the new hottest game coming out this this week also also Friday also Fridays goodness I can't play and I could do any other sort the live show I just want to know because I this is like this is like movie studio is competing for a movie release dates and booked in our live show date almost a year in advance it's always like the Saturday before Halloween and honestly there's no hard feelings if you're in the audience playing Mario on your switch I'm we're watching stranger things on your iPhone it's all good so just find me I'll save an empty seat don't no spoilers that's right Mario Odyssey is coming out this Friday I am super excited I don't think I'm gonna play it I want to save it until Christmas is that crazy that is crazy because I you don't get these that often and it is a Christmas item I don't have the water cooler talk use you binge Zelda you finished a Zelda that hasn't been in like a week and a half dude I was in a wait all year for Zelda but but I mean Mario is the antithesis of than intent the fact that it it's we've had to wait this long a real Mario and Mario that Mario games traditionally have been linear in terms of world one one world one - yeah it is perfect for the water cooler talk how far along the game are you Zelda being more open-ended yeah it's not a water cooler game there's no shame in I don't know stretching it out yeah here come next week we're gonna be Jerry did you see that amazing thing in world 1 to me first thing in the first 30 minutes of the game maybe maybe I like video games Christmas means video games to me because when I was a kid it's what I used to get and so I I want that feeling gasps private yeah I want to spend much nobody give it to me so that no you want someone a gift you want to I don't want to give somebody that you that kid has mine 64 AD this is Red Rider BB gun exactly yeah I don't know that seems like a nice thing to do to me play you know I don't need to play it right now I can enjoy hearing about from you that's fine okay yeah I you wait for the reviews yeah reviews do come out Thursday guys which and the fact that it's not a week before is that telling I that's a really good question there were there there is already like there too early reviews already out edge magazine has a magazine has a ten out of ten review okay for Mario and the Japanese magazine Famitsu gave it a 39 out of 40 so it's it's up there it's it's supposed to be as good as or you know as Zelda which you know one of the best games of all time at this point yep so I don't you're a launch consul with two best games of all time potential yeah contenders in one year it's all I need that makes that system and and the switch becoming readily available you can buy one on Amazon right now you know now that I think about it I think part of it is that I'm not as excited to play this as I have been previous Mario games because of the previews that I've seen I'm not really turned on by the real world new york city look that mario goes into a doubt the new dog city they won that when they announced this game the big part of the trailer was mario in this like exactly grand theft auto hello world' real world' real world' yeah it turns out that's not a big part of the game that's only one aspect of it i saw that there were many aspects to it yeah worried me was that was the the power of the switch itself because they showed this trailer for this mario game sorry Thank You Jimmy thank you for that the switch sound yeah when they announce the hardware its mobile Android hardware it's like it's a Tegra it's a it's a last gen right if idiot amber chip and the big fear for before result that came out and when they first showed this autumn art Odyssey was that or these gonna be dumb down experience its I can you Phil have a full open world GTAC our game on this type of hardware and Zelda proved one you can day one and two Mario honestly proves that you can do that GT a thing and also have also the other 90% of the game in the classic Mario aesthetic and pack a lot of content I mean they've got some success getting non-traditional developers now at least in ten developers putting games on switch you're gonna see doomed this way the new one the most recent one yeah there's not yeah the one that came out last year on switch yes he'll be 30fps but they say the experience is gonna because almost exactly the same and then the Wolfenstein game like I'm considering not playing it on PC I'm most likely eyes on PC but the appeal of it being portable and at exact same game yes but there's something compelling again being poor boy I mean screen size come on I mean for a game like Wolfenstein or doom it's like it has to be in your face I mean that is that intensity if you know yeah but like the idea that you can get the full story experience right right you if you're putting on headphones you get the full like action and gameplays the action the gameplay the reason I'll play it on a 4k monitor one for the keyboard or Mouse but you can all the cinematics all the fidelity of that on on something you can take a press plane when you're hooked on a game you take it however you can get it yeah you know yeah so very excited but now that we're back in the technology let's talk about tech news alright so we mentioned primeSense which microsoft acquired primeSense is that right they actually acquired them and I think they were separate from at least a little while hmm okay but that technology is in not only in like the structure sensor but also Microsoft Kinect the first one the first one at least yes yes and there was a new Kinect when the Xbox one came out and we all knew it was gonna be the case when Microsoft decided that it was not gonna be a mandatory packin accessory that one stays made the Kinect optional for developers and optional for consumers that it did may not have a long life and that is absolutely the case so the Kinect is gonna officially stop production on the Microsoft Kinect for Xbox one the new one that's crazy is that like the Xbox one is how old now two years old to something like that yeah two or three years old it's an interesting thing because you know you look at sort of competing technologies I mean in some ways all of our VR whether it's oculus or vive or whatever it is has some sort of motion tracking technology it's almost like they're they're canning it before they've come up with their next thing it's it's I mean in some ways I would love a Kinect tied into my oculus so that I can have body and hand tracking right without actually doing you know you know I think it up being cost right the cost versus the versus the market who's who's blind and also who's developing for it because I think the excitement of you know I'm gonna develop games for this very you know dedicated hardware that doesn't really have a analog on the PlayStation anymore I mean it used to be the psi the psi but that kind of lost luster once we got to you know PlayStation VR so but the PS I became a part of PSP are they got a name accessory to be used it did as almost a hack though because that became the motion tracking device not it they no longer track you know just your body so you used to play kung-fu gantry it's right around the right almost connect like yeah yeah really great skeletal model really nice and it could do so many cool things I think that the problem is that because it wasn't a mandatory pack in the games that were supported really had the Kinect focus game they tried they tried you know selling the bundles with the Kinect earlier with it with with specially with the previous generation right but just nobody wanted to play those game and they were also complete undercut with the ps4 launched that year right back in 2014 that's what it was three years Wow not so it's really sad because a lot of that passive functionality I think is where like the cool stuff that the Kinect come you know the facial recognition yeah like the things that that they just can't explore anymore like I don't need Kinect centric games but I would like that functionality connect to make its way and to enhance games in some way well I mean it's it's really interesting you actually look at some of the technology that went into it so like they did a lot of voice recognition so you could do voice commands and stuff through the Kinect sensor like that was part of it they did all the motion tracking I mean there's there's a lot of pieces of that that are sort of cutting-edge now just in different you know for VR for instance or your Amazon echo or you're sort of all these different they just it's almost like they they came in too early and they didn't have quite the exact target to you know to really sell it and they are also maybe misled by how successful the first Kinect was I think as an accessory because of the marketing hype this again the first Kinect maybe didn't have long legs but initially that holiday launch it was useful because it was something novel it was having different and they had enough games to support it and did really well as an optional accessory so when the Xbox one came around it made a lot of sense for then upgrade that and put it in but they didn't stick with it because maybe the market moved past them but it all sticks away that ability for them to what is Microsoft wanna do with VR on the Xbox one you know with the Scorpio they have said that VR somewhere in the future they don't think if they think that you know they're mixed reality design is gonna be PC first right now but if there's no Kinect how do you get that type of VR tracking experience on on xbox it would be something separate you have to be some some type of inside out probably inside out tracking well clearly I mean that's that's what they're banking on so not outside in you don't need to suffer camera they'll sell headsets whenever VR comes Xbox headsets with inside out which honestly is the easier setup experience for setup absolutely well whether whether it gives you a you know the same fidelity that's that's really the question and oh you know and it comes out to developers again I mean I think it's it's how well do developers you know plan their interfaces so that you know can I see my hands and can I interact with things that are outside my field of view or at least the the camera field of view and I think if you're designing a VR experience for the living room it may be slightly it can be different than this have a VR experience you want your experiences there gonna be a cross-platform write like that's gonna get the most out mark your audience but like PS VR experiences aren't exactly the same as the PC VR experiences because one you know there's gonna be a couch you know there's me a TV have ability for you know asymmetric experiences people on the couch doing something you know people are we facing forward you know that most living rooms are set up to this type of configuration you maximize that you're not only a lot of 360 room scale walking around it's mostly gonna be in the kind of standing in like you know your your four foot by four foot area type of thing so maybe that doesn't need full training cameras and grant tracking yeah I mean it enough for living room it just depends what the expectation is yep absolutely and if you have the TV and you do inside out tracking you also have another reference point yeah you know that there can be things to pop them TV or you can you can calibrate to your TV as a tracker sure as a marker the more interesting use for Kinect that I wasn't you know what was watching was the robotic stuff yeah so are there alternatives to connect that are just as easy to implement I mean there's there's all sorts of things I mean basically do you know oh yeah all of your lidar you know scanners and you know they're much more expensive I mean it's the thing with the Kinect was it was a because it was a commodity item it was commodity you know spatial location and distance measurement and that was it's hard to come by in fact I mean a lot of people use the off-the-shelf and I don't know if they're actually getting rid of the the Windows one the Windows one as well are they are you're nodding yes I I don't know I would assume they would yeah I think but that was I mean that was like a really cool thing for hundred fifty bucks like you get you know something that you can do slam or you can do you know scanning or you could do all these different things there was a very mature development community is surrounding them absolutely and anytime that you have you know sort of high tech that goes into a commodity product that you can then leverage into kind of the Hobby world that's huge so doing the same thing with other yes there's lots of ways of doing the same thing you know there's the realsense stuff that's still sort of floating around and I think even Intel's coming out with some some new hardware for that in the next couple months now that's all using just stereo cameras and and they've got some custom Asics for doing deb mapping depth mapping with that but yeah i mean it's it's it's kind of sad that that that's no longer gonna be as readily available so i would imagine the you know aftermarket you know supply of those is gonna last the hobbyist a while but we'll see him no one apologized primeSense wasn't microsoft was Apple who bought prime cents that's why I got confused okay yes is that true because there was a rumor about that a few years ago but then I thought maybe they acquired at one of their competitors no I mean as of 2013 um you know what maybe it's still a rumor or speculation yeah I made this noise than you strong I know that wasn't a prime sense sensor in the second connect that was only in the first connect got it got it Sam speaking of other Xbox news this week Xbox also finally really enabled backward compatibility with the original Xbox is this the only people were excited about like how many Xbox one or Xbox 1s owners still helped hold on to their old Xbox games I think it's it's that nostalgia thing I mean I think for some people that was their Christmas morning and they opened up their their Xbox you know I can't say Xbox one but their Xbox original this is the problem with console gaming right what like on PC you wouldn't have this PC you good old games you steam like but this much that's more of a pain in the butt like that's not good right if you buy the the clasps up on little guns it's just DOSBox like it's DOSBox with the game in it and you hope it runs right that's because there's a long much longer history of PC games yes but if we're talking about a game that came out in like the mid thousands or like early thousands with actual original Xbox all those PC games are gonna on your Windows PC most of most of them were gonna run are you in it coach or right now it's Republic's and run on your Windows as you see ya now Qatar will run on your Xbox one Ilana along with curtains got along with crimson sky so it's like a a dozen games so what's the deal if you already own these back in the day like if you owned them digitally do you just get them again or do you have to buy them again oh oh you have the license for cuz that's one of the benefits of the digital download right like Microsoft knows I own it they're gonna give it to me again right so really they're there in the store you can buy them again for sure well that's nothin but that's not a surprise ten bucks 10 bucks seriously yeah dude yeah these aren't even sixty game or more and you can't even play them so I guess you can play them now yeah but I don't know I don't know if they're in your account if the Xbox one infrastructure or Xbox Live such luck sure it could you even have my online we could do the Xbox one even have it in the digital download you mean the original Xbox yeah yeah you know I don't think the Xbox one store oh well then maybe they don't know you own them yeah I think I can't yeah Wow hold you on someone's holding behind that disc that crimson skies I mean I wonder if eBay prices for these have jumped up to definitely not more than ten dollars but like from $0.99 to two dollars oh they I'm saying they actually run the actual disc it's not a digital download okay yeah will they run the actual disc you have to buy them so hip I don't like this yeah can I get them all for like $30 what you want a pack you want the pack and you want them to take off the so you can redeem your UPC code and then make the back like a little bit cheaper you know what these are great games Prince of Persia awesome original pretty the the xbox printer is not the original and piecing of the time or whatever yeah that one was became changing for for platformers for 3d action platformers by the way Apple did by prime sense you were right you were right yeah yeah it was it was rumored and then confirmed we were all arriving I never played Knights of the Old Republic I'm that guy whoa I know I know people think it's the best game ever we pass we boil it I cook what the game no I never got to a spoiler because I put I tried it like two or three times so you're not a fan of those Bioware RPGs I guess I'm well my different it's different than Mass Effect though cuz now seem like they're structurally they're very similar the mechanic said combat is all dice rolls in Knights of the Old Republic are mass there are kind of dice rolls dice rolling max I do doesn't yeah but don't they make you feel like you have more agency totally it's like right you you aim but I'm looking for in life aim and you press the button and then they do a dice roll just make me feel it your weapon to have to make the weapon better in some way they can't make it you know yeah I just want I just want joy I just want I want to hear what I want okay Joe Jarrett Jeremy J you know I've been using the essential phone for uh I guess it's like three weeks now since New York Comic Con and we're new a review it's I like it a lot and the price was a big problem for me as $700 but for anyone considering it and I know the pixel to is out now but this is a nice bare-bones phone with not a great camera system the price is now $200 cheaper it's it's been out for a month but they've cut the price just whatever at all with the original iPhone yeah and I think it's because they've had some issues with the camera system and the reviews haven't been great but it's it's kind of sad because it's a small company and it's one of those couple of things that showed that you didn't need to be a multi-billion dollar company to release a really great smartphone there's a lot of parts that you can get in suppliers you can talk to and let in with the small design team you can come with something with something that's great but it they didn't have the engineering for the software side like I got a camera side they did try to do some novel things with our camera fusion it actually I'm gonna go as a black-and-white camera and a color camera and it fuses the images together to give you more detail but that then takes the shutter speed from a millisecond to like two seconds right so it's kind of unfortunate it doesn't bode well that now it's $500 and anyone who bought a central phone before like it I think they have credit back to buy accessories if you want to like get their 360 km 204 for accessories it has magnetic ports in the back for a 360 camera yeah but I feel bad I feel bad for them because I wanna see companies like this succeed well it's not still not cheap I mean hopefully they're still making money yeah yeah I mean that also blows my mind like consumers we think that phones because we trained by Apple trained by other higher manufacturer Samsung phones are $600 they're like $300 to manufacture right sure but everybody has to take their cut it's a big cut and it is yeah the average selling price only goes higher for their margins go higher where you listen to like the Apple earnings calls like they care about what that margin is per device of course absolutely and that's why you see you know everybody carrying an iPhone and you know Target and Walmart and everywhere you go because they do have that margin and if they don't they don't get the distribution and they don't get the visibility and you know it all that it's it's a it's a whole ecosystem and a lot of that margins and like things like RAM it's like a sorter right like well yeah there's more you know an extra 32 gigs of storage back then when there were some 32 v8 64 gig phones that was ridiculous yeah yeah that's what they've learned that lesson people are willing to play willing to pay for that extra bit of room and that is just pure gravy did you know that Best Buy sells all their iPhones at like a markup over MSRP wait just okay they just get away with it no I have no idea if you wanted to buy an iPhone 10 for this sample price match know exactly then they have Apple stores inside they're like yeah and pop-ups right or whatever they call them right but if you want to buy an iPhone 10 which like everyone knows thousand dollars base model it's actually 1,100 bucks at Best Buy that's it that's the fine print fit that actually eleven hundred bucks if you want to get at Best Buy after tax no it's just a supply and demand okay we can we want neck because I bet they have to pay Apple close to whatever Apple's dealing with the chaos of you know early release and all of that we sound think that just having a supply right in the store would get them like the halo effect for accessories like like yeah they're making lauki later right yeah you right would say just the door and in the door on that day one bus talking your cell phone your battery cases your your Bluetooth headphones and making margin on that yeah it would be enough or or warranty plans right I guess it's Apple care still Sabol still takes that part but like but they they're like bold enough to try to make extra hundred bucks extra 10% off the top and I was okay with that too this is another Friday event this is that this is it I get no no it's next week what there's no pre-orders yes is this Friday yeah yeah I think your live showed you the pre-order you don't mean much as maybe should be a nine so the 10 comes out November 3rd which is next Friday I want to say somewhere in there yeah yeah it's end of next week nothing exists right now before the live show but on the 27th people reveal pre-order and and hope and yet when they get one so if you're in the market for iPhone 10 apparently the best way to pre-order is with the app that's been the case since the app the app will get you the website website crash all the all the carrier sites are gonna be terrible here's the weird thing they have this iPhone upgrade program that they announced years ago yeah at least one year ago if not you up yeah and the subscription plan for your phone it's basically a 0% financing you know thank were they they allow you to pay for your phone monthly over the course of two years and after a year they allow you to trade up to the newest phone and but you have to trade in your old phone right they've allowed those people who are already in the program to prequalify for the for the upgrade but you can't prequalify if you're not a member which is interesting I certainly could they could run the credit check because the whole concern is will you be able to check out fast enough at midnight on Thursday night sure and so people would like to qualify for this program but you can't so the only way like and I don't know why you'd enter this program now unless you're - like wait months for your phone you know so even if you're on the program and if you're on the program you're good you're good but you're good better you may not get it next week well no you cuz you can prequalify this week if you're in the program you can prequel that like everyone else you still need but you can check out your your your two steps which is week once like worth of getting a coupie yeah well with only 20 million or whatever it is provided like three million we don't know what the numbers are some analysts thinks that they don't they won't be easy to get until April of next year April April next year almost like new phone yeah and which is I'm shocked that Tim Cook and and their head of retail Angela or her they did interview with BuzzFeed then like they were frank about the fact that if you they're gonna have some in stores on the third but yep get there early they say with a smile they want lines yeah they want lines of disappointed people that's gonna be is that gonna raise their stock price or lower their stock price dude like doesn't that say that's they have supply problems they do net stupid good demand problem they do theirs right the happy the happy medium would be a ton of people waiting in line outside but everyone's satisfied right dude you're not even mentioning the worst-case scenario which is what if the phone is a problem doesn't say if it has a has some bug or it's a flop like yeah what if what if people actually find a way around face ID or what if it what if it doesn't work right use out yet exactly everything well what if the screens aren't working right like this whole new OLED for Apple there's a lot of new territory here and like they can only afford to charge those margins you were talking about if they have a killer product yeah right and there's even a rumor now which Apple has come out against that in order to help with the supply they are weakening we face ID sensor like going with a cheaper sensor or taking mmm like time will tell I don't think they would do that I don't think that this is this is a I mean you have to almost treat this as a first release product like this is first gen or from gen because it is it's such a departure and it's the first time they've done two major you know releases in one year like this is this is new territory it's completely new in terms of like the reviews of the iPhone 8 were we're good I think people who never said fine but that's fine and it's a I'm sure it's a perfectly good phone and it's more expensive it seven it was last year they raise it by like 50 bucks or something for the what's the big new feature it is just charging Wow it's faster it's faster it's got a new processor that's I mean really that's what it boils down to yeah let's let's rephrase that it doesn't have a new processor it runs the new software right just as fast as your phone last year ran last year's new software yes so it's better compatible with the newest version of iOS but yes the 10 is something completely different and I've no idea how the naming scheme is gonna work on forgiving any bets you may like well 10.1 yeah I don't think they're gonna save that going to 11 joke because that is something Apple will total it's a dad joke Apple will make that will be 10 years from now that will be not 10 that will be years from now I think I've ever know 10.1 10.2 really you don't think so I don't know let's start naming them after mountains I could totally see them just calling it iPhone from now on and coming up we'll head so there will be no iPhone 9 and almost confusing I think it's gonna be a Yosemite phone or though or they'll come up with some other landmark to know islands or so what does it become next year like what will what will follow ain't gonna fade out I think I think they're gonna go to a new platform I think it's almost like a you think the 10 will be but I don't think the reason I don't think so is if you look at the lineup now they need something on the entry level on the low end they still saw the 5 se yeah they still sell a form factor that no like that apps have to support it's really the perfect form factor that's what I had before my 8 and they're not an se but yeah it was it's it's actually it for kids like that's what my daughter has she's 12 that's that's her phone how does it the newest iOS and we're not messy its app developers or even internally Apple they all must have the se oh yeah I guess the six because they still sell the six right the success no what is it no success seven eight yes yeah that must be their baseline like the worst of us be compatible that's what I'm running I would hardly call it compatible you heard a car it's got a phone anybody would be proud to show off you'd never show the way that iOS performs on it yeah it would just fine last year yeah year and half ago with with ten with ten it was perfectly fine and yet new OS you to get that new command center you gotta make your phone a little slower all the animations you just add animations in the people complain about the marketing for the Apple tenth of the f110 how they're big ads or it's all screen mmm that's that's they're bad right yeah all screen and yet there's a row that they show right back bar is the back bar that is not there if they can't win they can't wait because there's no there is what's the marketing well the good thing is they're not first to market with that either like you I'm looking at a phone here that's all screen and then this one this one has a notch and has chin but it's pretty great it's chann terms of how much green it is it's pretty screen II yes you define it what would you call something like this it's edge to edge yeah you can't you can't say because there's no chance Samsung has the edge is a brand oh right the Samsung Galaxy edge so this is why we're not in marketing right it's a they've they've cut no corners no wait they've cut all the corners the phone does nothing but cut corners that's a good tagline we we've cut all the corners on our phone only curves curves that corner it's just a sphere pretty soon yeah no no yeah anyway I'm gonna we're gonna follow the iPhone 10 launched with great interest in curiosity now are you gonna get an iPhone den um it's not out of the question we'll see we'll see what what it looks like at 12 a.m. on the 27 if it's if it's a wait till April no way I'm gonna put money down now connected to commit something to wait till April I've been seriously thinking about trying to downgrade to iOS 10 and see what still works yeah yeah I don't know how possible that is I think it's totally possible rather there's a little I read something about it's not signed anymore and so the trick might be getting around them do illegal things I don't want to see I don't want to bother with jailbreaking it so I don't know we'll see the problem I have with the 10 it's it is super new and shiny and there's a reasonable chance I will want one and maybe even get one is you can see all the ways as a first gen product it can be improved that they can they can put some new feature already already easy right it's and I might be talking about reducing the knotch I completely understand what they're talking about and you know but all the ways in terms of like putting back touch ID you know putting it in the back somewhere right there all the rumors about him not finding a fingerprint sensor yeah or improving the software or or you know the or improving the screen like the thing I wanted that it's not there is I wanted a 120 Hertz screen like features that you already see on their other product lines right the iPad pro has that 120 and 120 Hertz screen that people say well it's amazing let you use it right now you can't you once you scroll with that you can't go back to an older iPad and yes it cost a lot of money but this one also cost a lot of money and I know the battery life considerations here but they're so sweet they own the hardware they own the software I would love to see that yeah me too on a phone on that phone is that gonna make you buy 10.1 the phone next year this phone next year or whatever it is I mean that's that's Apple strategy oh I'm a bit 10 because they actually need a full year to get it in stock so it can just catch up next year they can launch the 9 they'll finally have the 10 available like for anybody this is boggles my mind marketing classes must be talking about this this might go down is as you know a history and bad marketing it just seems weird this is one of the most recognizable brands on the planet names on the planet mmm right so much that influenced the naming scheme for most of their other product lines product categories and yet they're creating confusion when but this is needed to be but case I mean that's why they went to I pad it wasn't you know there was and it had Pro what I got iPad pro so you're really going longer a numbering scheme but I said iPhone pro my those are two cat me and there if what is actually happening here is to put their price segment in there the product line right there's it's not linear it's two things you want the entry level or you want the high end you want the one that everyone gets good there are some other features but you want the one that everyone can get or you want the one that only the fancy people get and then you can call it you know iPhone iPhone Pro alright I think I think we've we've we've excited this one yeah yeah we have how about a simpler naming scheme how about how about the Sony Alpha a 7r3 with one three Roman numeral and not the number three but what does this mean this this new camera new camera new as a whole a seven line or just the arm it's the the first in the it's just the arm okay so but it's a continuation of the a7 lines so the high-end camera if all Sony cameras and they've been doing really well they were formerly well is at the a nine most earlier this year a very expensive but basically they're a competitor to the Canon like the 1d series a sports photography incredible frame rates the a7 series was very populous basically they're equivalent to the 5d line that the prosumer high-end prosumer full-frame camera and the third version a seven r3 is finally announced people are waiting for this for a long time I think because of some of the flooding or earthquakes in Southeast Asia some of their sensor manufacturing facilities had been put on hold and so this was delayed this announcement but from all reports based on the specs this is a worthy successor so the a7 are too cool so the a7 to brought a motion stabilization yes no how's that okay so what is the three bring the three well it's for like more digit I believe it's 40 it's more megapixels and higher frame rate which are like big things like stabilization I don't think it's like a paradigm shift in terms of the stabilization stuff but it's 42 megapixel at 10 frames per second with full auto focus Oh temp 10 frames of photos 10 frames seconds per photo Wow yeah okay and then how long so that brings on it yes the buffering size plus the memory card right Nick you know all that say don't take what you're shooting like us your settings right yeah yeah right if you're in raw but it's so this is ten frames of raw yeah and sort of talking about you know 50 Meg's per image or more you're you're eating like a huge like you're needing know one of those one 140 megabytes per second memory cards right right and of course I'll do so with the with the an NF dual memory card function so my doing a swap seconds back yeah back and forth so what is it 28 raw photos in 2.8 seconds so it's 10 frames per second for 2.8 seconds okay what are you doing sports photography or V action photography you only need two seconds where it so seconds that's great I mean we want to impress point though that they're shooting like 24 is that magic number isn't it Wow 24 FPS raw continuous at 40 mega pixels at 40 mega pick let's let's let's say let's say reduce down to like even do you need megapix you don't handle you don't need 40 megapixels there for video for continuous shooting yeah I mean then it's a camera that it's then that's a cinema camera then that's basically like like motion JPEG set motion raw yeah it's it's your red camera I mean that's this is the this is the spec for your you know what eventually we're all yeah quite there yet but it's like when people I think for cameras over the past 10 years people are definitely more educated about sensors right like 10 years ago when point-and-shoots were we're still King no one like consumers pro suited for that professionals knew but consumers didn't care about sensor size now we hear about sensor size here about like a not only bigger sensor of their quality of sense we hear about those in Apple keynotes in Samsung keynotes and it's no surprise that people understand bigger sensor more light better depth of field better but don't think about the even on smell smartphone side the processing sure I think Apple starting to push on that marketing talking about a lot of that post processing software features yeah and it happens in real time because we're getting to the point now I mean it used to be a number and it's like oh well my one pit megapixel cameras better than my you know half megapixel camera yeah horrifying right right before 30 megapixel better than 10 megapixel and then you talk about okay one inch sensor better than you know three-quarter inch again this is all marketing anyways because it's also how you use those megapixels I mean that's we're actually the biggest thing I mean you look at the cameras that are on you know the Mars rovers and though these tiny little cameras but they're producing these amazing images because they're doing scans or they're doing post-processing or they're doing all these things and yeah that the magic is we're doing the point now where there's diminishing returns in hardware it's all about the software it's all about the facts yeah like you get like diminishing returns physically because you can't put large like aps-c you went to full-frame you're not gonna put much large on a full frame sensor noise designing I mean yes there there are the the what do you call them large larger than full-frame the medium medium format medium format digital cameras out there but that's not gonna hit consumers cuz lenses are gonna be different right you need the whole ecosystem changes with that creaking no but on the software side holds I mean on the computational side whole separate track faster processors soakin gets better much happen to Moore's Law storage right every all these things move in parallel and then how much about you see in real time too right right because if they're doing post processing and a lot of cameras and people don't even think about how much post processing is or processing is happening in real time to show you what's on the viewfinder right cuz you want to give the viewfinder image like if you're saving JPEGs on your cell phone there is processing happening it dad's you're not well SP up at some point we're just gonna be running Lightroom on our camera like I mean that's really what's coming down too we're getting enough compute power in the size I mean in real time in real time right in in the life you know yeah exactly right not just for a saved image but in in the in a 30 FPS or you know and then you want that's increase right you want a viewfinder run a 90 FPS because you want it super smooth well and I want a higher resolution viewfinder right yeah I know yeah yeah camera stuff is fascinating I love this stuff anyway I'm a seven are three three thousand bucks right $3,200 its body only and it's a same price as they seminar to when that first came out so really isn't the the high-end prosumer market if I didn't buy the 5d last year this is one I would probably go for yeah Amazon well there's another Amazon store we're going to talk about there was yeah oh you know speaking of how technology has changed over the past ten years into camera technology later Segway no I'm gonna force it in oh man the Kindles ten years old uh happy birds any of you so own actual physical Kindle my daughter does she's is it on a daily basis do you also did she have a tablet as well or is the Kindle for tablet it's kind of for tablet yeah even I cannot fire talk about like the actual I think yeah I think it's a black and white Wow battery lasts forever yeah yeah yeah that's that's amazing cuz when we talk about like the world changed when you know iPhone came out and smartphones were change Kindles kind of changed the world to change the publishing industry but also in that ten-year time we saw the whole the whole cycle like their commodity product super chief we used to be like let's wait till the Kindles 100 bucks ask me a magic mark and now you don't even think about like no one cares about the new Kindle releases the new hardware releases yeah they're gonna happen better but it's such a commodity product which is like the goal was the goal its items like replaces a book absolutely you don't even think about it replacing like a buying I mean people love holding physical books but the e-book is a completely normal way to read a book and the the Kindle itself change the publishing industry so much that once tablets and phones became ubiquitous and got better it obsolete came obsolete like there's still a purpose for it but people who have phones can read these books on their phones my wife does and it surprises me but she reads entire books on her phone iPad it's I mean if you have a excel phone maybe but like I mean if you've got I used to read on the iPhone 5 the full book that would hurt yeah like that is a bright screen the nice thing about the Kindles was it was a yeah it's it's not it's not that your eyes I mean and and then it's also just clarity I mean just the resolution which has gotten better yeah over time yeah I mean they specifically did not design those to be high refresh rate play animations oh is the doesn't let you do that like you have to erase the screen right before you draw the next picture so it there are some it's like a fast yeah there are some like top LCDs similar technologies that don't have the backlight that can do the animations yeah but I mean I have no interest in buying a Kindle Kindle no no not anymore right like even the Kindle brand Amazon has taken all the goodwill and kind of put it into their tablets yes there ain't no fire yeah right and those are commodity products to super achieving great for kids right yeah so I mean salute to the Kindle cuz that weird form-factor white framed ebook with with the keyboard on the bottom and all those weird features like no off button for a little while right right that lasts forever and and with whisper sync like audio dictation like all those weird experiments and all made publishing industry the way it is and I think like audiobooks would not be the way audiobooks are without the Kindle and and then and you think it change audiobooks I think that was personal hearing the book what the Kindle I think train I mean it changed people it trained people to think of book as more than just one type of interface and audiobooks I think obviously benefited from your bandwidth right bandwidth in the store absolutely and and and and the audible the system of subscription-based system because those are very expensive reduce but the cost being 15 bucks a month for a book as opposed to thirty forty dollars a book right ants they previously were or CDs right buying the CDs did you guys ever do that oh I remember getting the big stacks of cassette tapes I think I said I think I probably had the first release of Lord of the Rings on cassette coming like this what's that oh it was this box I remember - she was floating around in my trunk for yata bridge yeah not a bridge like it was making the most sense for all for audio this one this was mini car trips of liking a long drives I listened to so I definitely grew up with them because you have to rewind yeah yeah yeah and reward if you finished it both sides you're back in the because I guess there's two sides you're right okay so you can use your side that's right I guess we forgot that tapes VHS CDs you Katherine why that CD good there were multiple like binders oh yeah of CDs for a book and I got this her weird collectors items artifacts of history file I love this you have swapping it like swapping the swapping the CD yeah find the CD and what was it what was all you what was the book you remember listening to on CD I remember listening to Stephen King's the mist on tape like that was it was really trippy because it had this they did a full performance of it with this I binaural sound so that they had all this stuff that's happening around your car you could hear I headphone to go ahead yeah actually we I just realized because we go to the library and my daughter gets Harry Potter see you know the the books on books on tape on CD we actually have them in our car right now like this moment so if that's a good way to for Library System's oh yeah absolutely Joe don't you actually can also do digital download right my brains are starting to do that yeah and it I think it's a it's like this get like 20 life hack but like people should get the VIPRE cards and local the library get me access to so many things people just don't do it yeah library tool lending and now all kinds of good stuff library ABI are those in many libraries 3d printing yeah I didn't know that go back at Larry's your trip to library so if you purchase one of these new Amazon Kindle or an Amazon Kindle today which you still can yes and you were home yes what would happen my delivery guy just throws it over the hey it's a high gate - is that really impressed that's a good setup actually because no it's not good for your package but you get your package and it's probably not gonna be stolen social engineer right you leave the door half open oh yeah and then you the only the UPS or the FedEx oh the Amazon person knows that they can pull it and then they're the the unspoken contract is they closed the gate fully do they even instructions for that now the instructions tell the hoodlums that you won you're expecting a package they know your target that day yeah into they read the instructions and they all get in just as well well there's a new method okay tell me about this new method Amazon key mmm sounds I sounds good I it doesn't at the service so what happens is if you own an Amazon branded security camera in you know connect cloud connected security camera it's inside your house and you own one of the smart locks that is Wi-Fi enabled so these are products they don't they make the smart lock they don't but they do make the camp they make the camera so there's like their nest yeah yeah yeah so if you have that home I don't know how many of those homes there are but if you have that home you can sign up for a service so that when your Kindle arrives and it's delivered by Amazon not at presumably UPS or FedEx but I mean that is it ever Amazon Amazon it is for me oh really when they arrive they can swipe a little tool on their phone and they can unlock your front door yeah walk into your house yeah and leave the package and leave presumably locking it behind them now I'm not sure how I feel about this because market number one I'm obsessive about getting my packages alright I know when they're coming and I want to receive them and if I'm not home I legitimately get stressed out about it because I like my stuff so I like that I can get packages the problem is my experience with Amazon delivery people has not been the best like they are not the most professional livery I didn't realize this was actual Amazon I thought it was like my UPS guy was also would you trust UPS my UPS yes he's awesome I love my UPS guy I treat him so well I get he has my my garage code oh wow so I absolutely with connect on the I've cited him in to play pinball oh okay but this is so when you want your packages you treat your delivery guys yeah this is Amazon taking over deliveries so like if your subscribe to service and a package they won't let you PS deliver that package it has to be through their current service always it craps you you never know how does the key work if it's on the UPS trialing it does I think it's only if it's Amazon delivery so it's a weird inconsistent service so you don't there's no guarantee for delivery then exactly that's it and we're still letting people I mean are you opting into only Amazon couriers or or is it a checkout option I need this package I'm not I know I'm not gonna be home yeah right initial iPhone 10 ensure that it's Amazon courage certainly Prime now would be Amazon courier right oh for prime now prime now a lot of those are contractors not full-time employees or like uber that's what I'm saying man left all their delivery people are like that right ye I'm not the biggest fan of this you get people following them who you know not only are they gonna leave a package they're actually gonna open your door you know Mabel tale L people tale FedEx absolutely and then steal packages based on that dude you don't know about this I see a major problem what yeah people follow the trucks and then they you know hop out and they grab this time and anytime there's a lot of presents that's fun yes yeah yes Wow yeah we need more of these security cameras I'm just not sure they should be letting people in do you think this is a ploy to sell more Amazon shows because you use the show with the security camera too so you're at the office you have a show and then you can in it once the camera turns on it pops up on your on your display I think we're just gonna start designing our homes differently soon so there's gonna be better package delivery because we're getting so many more the whole idea of a mailbox means to be a mail Walker a lot of something yes the area in between your front gate and your doors something something that's secure like yours yeah right or-or-or awesome on the ground right it's it's it's the the bomb shelter I mean it might also be the the drone landing pad who knows like I mean all these things like we are shifting to a delivered economy yeah you know so maybe the infrastructure has to change or you can sacrifice the little bit of convenience of having it in your house and in your door and make use of the lockers that are like right around the corner like the lock in an urban yes yes but it's less of a problem with these are only problems in urban areas where there's tons of doors no no I think that's actually some of it some of the like especially the security problems are actually in the more suburban and rural areas because there's big distances so when you see that UPS truck driving down the road you know you know those your there's a target yeah absolutely Wow Wow so what is this a $250 bundle that includes the lock the camera and installation right yes okay you got a we do more because this is just announced this morning so the in-home delivery is an option every time you order from Amazon so exactly as we thought it would be a menu option and no additional charge and the in-home delivery only available on specific items so 10 million items again make some sense because it can't be something too big and bulky they're freaks and Families out it's only available in about 37 cities right now who will be the one to test Amazon book I vote Jeremy if you if you are home like if somebody's home that didn't know the package is coming yeah the hell out of them I I think we should one so I think the camera system right that's why if you're home and you have the the echo show at home yeah like now you have zero interaction with your delivery person you're at home making food in the kitchen your Amazon Show pops up with the camera oh my back doors open okay they drop the package thank you and then they close door that's it I think we should go we run the front door that's the commercial what you don't see in the commercial is the time they forget to lock it behind them or there thank you left the package and then the amazon press is standing right behind him with a knife right it's the delivery came from within the house I think we should we should chip in and get Amazon home delivery from Mario Odyssey for Jeremy so he can know I get it as a gift yeah and the livery guy will hand it to him and you have experienced the whole thing we're joking about this but this actually is a perfect surface for the office for our office here because we have all we have that we have is yeah that would work and and we a lot of deliveries and we like our delivery people we'd like saying hi to our UPS driver and our UV SBS delivery person mmhmm yeah anyway another event you know next week is Blizzcon lost so many events going on we have our live show st. Pierre Science Festival there's also four people last week in Las Vegas Adobe MAX don't be Mac's annual I've never been I've always been curious about it but people use Adobe's software suite always kind of like get a little nervous around open axes what are they gonna change how my life exactly exactly what incompatibilities when they announce once in the cloud now and yeah and last week we talked about a Lightroom changed through the now it's no longer by by as a separate package and Lightroom as a service now which oh not that great but they also unveil some like some prototype features I think this is probably the most exciting part of Adobe MAX well they like some experiments and I'm a sci-fi yeah last year they did it the audio writing right where you can put somebody else's voice on this video exactly Yeah right and and replace words and make audio editing perfectly seamless it's not out yet but this year they announced a a new video editing tool or feature and an exact you remember this what's the what's big that's a sidewinder so yeah Sidewinder it's a again they kind of just say it's a little you know sort of pet project or something they're trying out they don't don't don't make any claims it will make it into any product but there's kind of this proliferation of 3d cameras and stereo cameras that people are capturing you know you know stereo VR but it's it has kind of a flat feel to it if you've ever looked at VR that's just a you know video it's it's sort of like just projected on a round sphere around you and it doesn't happen you can't move your head you basically have three degree of freedom you know you can tilt your head but if you slide it side to side it you just it just kind of lose it breaks the whole yeah the world goes with you the road goes with you so the the process or service that this this project is is demonstrating is basically taking stereo video and projecting it we're actually creating a depth map first so uh yeah that's what I want so this is that with just two cameras okay so so they use they use two camera this is stereo captured at least that was a demo so they they do correlation between the two frames to find out you know what pixels have moved how far so they can actually get a depth map now that's pretty much off the shelf right then they project that video onto that depth map and do some there's some definitely some secret sauce in the back that sort of stretches the video just right now it did look a little clunky in there in there demo where they sort of had the edges where there wasn't data that was recorded so like if you move far enough you actually don't see certain parts of the image so they kind of just stretch the the video around it but in fact that you get some you know lateral translation as you move your head in the VR image is actually really really powerful I've always said I don't need much I just want to move this much yeah and for seated situations like that would make it so much more real and they showed a you know a couple different demos one was a Christmas tree and again if you move very far it kind of breaks but if if you really only keep it a couple inches I feel like that would just add so much to - to VR video and the point is that this can be mapped on a 360 when you think of depth maps it's it's well anything well anything is stereo it has to be stuffed up stereo so you have to have stereo 360 but it wouldn't work in 360 if it was a stereo 360 set up yet exactly yeah so it's pretty cool it's it's a neat thing I mean it from that from the outlook you can go oh okay that just looks like more but again you're not experiencing it just like all the other comfort it's about just total but you're gonna want more yeah once you have that you're gonna want to reach out you're gonna want to walk then you realize you can't do that either yeah I mean I know the limit of video but yeah you know but you could design minute again we're still dealing with you know certain types of cameras that have certain type of spatial distance you know I mean people are coming out with bigger and better you know camera rigs for capturing more and more data yes I understand and if you combine that with like a street view style yeah from node to node oh yeah then you're really moving around the world you had missed the original missed game yeah you know this sort of you know video that's that's pretty compelling I could definitely see some some good stuff this is more than a few inches of lateral movement - they're definitely moving but I think they're actually moving too far I wish they would have I like they're showing the extremity I think I like seeing the I see where it fails yeah yeah but but I think from from just the casual you know fewer they're like well why does it do this we're think that actually saw some comments on some of the poster like well that looks like junk because look at what it does and it's like no no no great for six inches and that's really what you mean filthy casuals yeah yeah remember Minority Report and when Tom Cruise is viewing that old like projected oh yeah video it's like family exactly thing yeah like they it was a 2d video superimposed over some type of depth map of course they're using fancy science fiction hologram systems but that's exactly like the idea that you could hopefully take old stereo video whether it's 360 or steer reveal right like a date library content stereo video and map it over a depth map yes don't forget we're now create more immersive viewing experience stuff they also talked about some of these other other technologies and I actually put that in the notes but I thought some of them with other ones were kind of fascinating that I think they could kind of merge with this there's there's doing sort of the contents of where they've always had connection say always but it's in like five years they've had context-aware fill or images or images right so they're starting to play with that in video because they process it because the processing but now you could imagine doing context-aware fill in the VR areas that don't actually have the content visible so you could actually start doing that also yeah they're combining the projecting to stereo and a stereo image on a depth map and then on the sides where you have the gaps the gray area film yeah fill that with it actually you know it's like oh I can identify that as a chair I know what chairs look like cuz I got this massive you know database of chair data but that's not even need to be real-time then because we're talking about oh yeah yeah well it does have to be on done well this is this is pretty processed so this this you could go through and you could actually you know process all your video again it's it's it's capturing those real events the hard part is the capture like I had I can spend all day long processing it and I can use my deep deep learning you know my neural nets to go through and say oh okay well there's a half of a chair missing if I know what a chair looks like I can just substitute in a you know the side view of a chair you think about how the content of where would work it have to be specifically designing for filling the blanks of 3d3 says it wouldn't be you think it's a texture map yeah like it's not just constant you can't content-aware fill texture map and have it look good in 3d well but that's in some ways that's what they're doing they are just doing texture maps that's what this is the texture map you're turning it to zero image in a texture map but you can't still that texture map in Photoshop if I if I through a texture map and Photoshop and had right like area and that content where fill it would not it would more logically work yeah there's still some work to do it's been the bottom line right that's where we're headed we're headed to the point where we can capture 90% of a room with a standard not standard but a you know a 3d type camera 3d rig you know it's impossible to get all the data and all the room because of occlusion of all these other problems right but if we have enough smart to fill that in yeah it's good enough that's good enough air could be for it to be convincing and then of course we all want it in real time of course when I trio we didn't have the dinosaur DNA we just used frog heartful you know something stretching warping the world one last story of found this kind of interesting low-tech way to to warp the world is just with the delusions and apparently some places rather come around the world including Iceland have started painting crosswalks and using optical illusions perspective illusions anamorphic illusions I guess these are what they are to make the crosswalks and other objects looks like they're floating on top of the road and this is the idea is to to give distracted drivers to distract them more yeah that's the problem right you think you think you would distract normal drivers more than it would take distracted drivers out of action like the subconscious brain because it only works in like the anamorphic style illusions only work with small viewing area well that's the thing like I I mean what you want so when I go up to a crosswalk that is hard to see you know especially these days they're now augmenting them with lights and they're sort of you know they're making them really visible yeah I don't know that you're gonna see this from any further away then you know sort of twenty feet and at that point you're already going too fast you're gonna run somebody over or you know it's a funny it's a funny thing like it almost seems like it's just a distraction and what's at the wrong time like I don't want to distract them it's too late mmm but it's cool it looks cool yeah it brings attention to it I wouldn't drive wrong really it is one of those things that you the idea may sound great on paper yeah unless you put it into action there's so many of these I think it's more of an hour project yeah it definitely is an art project I want to see it pop up in in certain parts of the states I want to see I want to see what the implications are and then how people respond do these perspective paintings even look right in stereo because they look great as a photo right that's always the challenge yeah yeah I mean again only a limited few views like a crosswalk is a is a wide area well only in the middle lane yeah and and well if you have enough distance everything looks 2d so that's also one of the tricks with some of these illusions if you're far enough away but if you get close yeah your cuz you have two eyes while most people do it breaks it and also because of the stretching like it's it's weird you're trying it's not like it suddenly appears it looks like a child in the middle of the street you're so stretch objects objects trick tops okay I guess it looks like a child like your brain it's it's not gonna shop your brain in the same way because it's already slowly slowly acclimating to something weird in a street might as well just put a light there are some rumbles ya know wants to break their tires the octave this hall up in the Seattle office has that has a perspective thing in the painting that has a perspective painting in the hallway where it says oculus we get that it goes across the walls and then across the back wall across the other wall all right that does it for our technology news segment before we continue on I want to thank the other sponsor of this week's episode and that's a RoboForm how you still use the same password for everything I hope not a lot of you because we're using password is the easiest way to have your data and identity stolen and letting browsers automatically save your login information isn't secure enough in today's day and age and thankfully there are more ways in more secure ways more convenient solutions than doing that so RoboForm actually stores and generates strong unique passwords right in your browser or mobile device all you need to remember is one RoboForm master password pretty easy and with RoboForm you always have the right password one click away with a secure online vault and they'll even auto fill out long checkout forms it's a password manager that's available for individuals families and businesses and supports all major desktop and mobile platforms so just go to RoboForm dot-com and you can download today on the App Store or on iOS or Android and for a limited time you get $10 off your Robo form everywhere a subscription when you use the promo code tests just TST you can simplify and secure your online journey today with RoboForm password manager and thank them for supporting of this week's episode the VR minute virtual reality this week we have to cut our virtual reality discussion short last week because we're running short on time and there was so much to talk about cuz we just come back from oculus connect for what did we leave out that we want to then we want to revisit Jeremy oh my gosh well we touched on the go which was the big news yes $200 headset yes we didn't touch on something that somebody brought up on Twitter which is that how great that'll be for education yeah I know that's a good point I think you know oculus has talked about the internal debates about whether a three degree of freedom headset would be poisoning the well right like whether that's a that ship has sailed but yeah I think there are so many people like you can step up it was nothing more kool-aid than what then poisoned yeah maybe I don't know I I saw I still run into it when I have you know friends and family come over and I've got my little oculus set up downstairs and you know I say oh hey do you want to go try this out they're like oh I've tried VR I'm like have you have you tried you know I don't know but I I know the thing that I tried and they're describing basically you know three you know 360 video and I'm like oh no no no I have Google that's it and so my phone in that thing before but that is the experience that I think most people have had and so it is poisoning the well I mean because they go oh yeah that kind of made me a little sick and you know wasn't that compelling so is it was it the fact that it was a phone experience with maybe not the best audio not the best frame rate not the best content Oh all the above was it the fundamental 3 3 degrees of freedom versus an interaction I think interaction is probably the biggest thing yeah right I mean you and you can get you can get some interaction with if you've got a you know gear VR with with some sort of input device but but even still it's just it's such a different thing I mean even when you know going from oculus with a Microsoft you know controller to you know control that was such a big leap yeah so yeah I think that I think that well has been poison I say that jokingly but I don't think it's we can recover from that it's just gonna take a little bit more time so but they're not investing in recovering from that I mean they are and making the rift cheaper and developing things like the cell crew's prototype but they're also talk about a mass-market product at $200 that is in that same category but B there is a freedom it's because their market that I think what they've learned is people aren't spending you know $800 on a headset that has to then have a you know thousand to two thousand dollar computer behind it that's really what it boils down to I mean that's just custom so and $200 all-in is even if what you're getting is not the best experience it's still something that's out there it's I think they also invested a lot of content yeah and and yeah they're they're building up a library I mean they put huge I mean we've all seen like they've they're huge amounts of investment in all of these content providers and they are building their content for kind of the lowest common denominator you know which is frustrating for you know those of us that have these kind of bigger rigs it's like oh we're getting kind of just this trickle of you know of content the frontier we want the frontier more and more and they're like mass-market and what they're doing about the thing that always surprises me is how much John Carmack is into things like 360 photos yeah I don't I don't get a 360 video as like I don't enjoy watching 360 video I mean III if it's well-designed they're interesting but like it's not something that I think about doing might go home I don't want more so that's that's I mean that's kind of the the benchmark for me it's like okay if I spend 10 minutes on something and then I take off my headset in 10 minutes am I gonna go I want some more of that and if it's 360 video or some of these other experiences that are just not well designed or make me a little bit sick I'm like no I've had my fill I'm all good you know a well-designed a novel thing like okay I've had that's it yeah but but then there's the Echo Arena experience or some of those sometimes like you're like oh my gosh that this really like I need some more of that I don't get that with those those sorts of experiences and that's the poison that is it do you think are you surprised Carmack isn't as invested in the mobile space as he is compared to the PC space I'm not because I think he finally fundamentally believes that there is the way to get to mass market adoption in six series is to start with three degrees of freedom and that the technical challenge is on the mobile space are more interesting probably to him I think that's actually it I think that's why he likes the mobile side not necessarily 360 video so much but he sees it as a optimization puzzle of how do I get that same coolness in limited hardware I mean that that is his like his roots but his roots were also pushing the frontier and giving the best in the highest NPC and delivering for people who had even back then you know with quake the $2,000 computers yeah but but I could run you know he wasn't doing jumping in the mobile games when he first went out oh no it was I wasn't even with John Romero is doing but he is doing they did doom RPG and he worked on that right right now and I completely agree there is a technical challenge there like based on his talk that we saw he was super excited about ways to optimize render a video sure for three simple right for a mobile and optimizing and you know whether it's streaming like I guess he did some of that with his tech engines like the the mega texture stuff yeah right it's just it's just super init super interesting I think he sees that there's a lot of talented people working in the space right now and so he he sees that that's where his his contributions yes contribution wants to he that's where he wants to make it I think like you said like he sees mobile as the future right and that's where he wants to spend his time in Zack to your point about you know what makes an experience like Echo Arena an interactive six degrees of freedom high-end experience at Greenham more appealing things you want to revisit over watching a 360 video I think the big one other big differentiating factors that is cross-compatible is just the social experience sure I think that once they once you get $200 headsets even with their three degrees of freedom headsets into let's say five million people's hands and some high number it's a short number on the way to a billion but it's it's a lot of more people than how do we yeah using on a regular basis and have social 360 easier to be there yep with other people that that gives the network effect they will take over I'm most intrigued by the go because it is a VR exclusive device it's not like cardboard or writer VR in that you have you have to launch something or insert something and then get into a certain mode it's drag-and-drop so your experience convenience ease-of-use yeah I mean I want to put that thing on and just I'll just be in VR instantaneously and I'll be able to launch things it'll be a VR device right we haven't seen that since like the the Nintendo thing Virtual Boy it's not was such a big hit it's also the same same argument for you know why we like to switch the echo the one thing you can throw in your bag take on a take on a trip fly to hotel and if you're disconnected you know from your family put that on and maybe you can do a 360 some type of I think is big yeah and that's really what it boils down to is it's it's a portable device and and also the price I think it really just comes down to price yeah and and you know their argument is more people will mean that we have more you know we have the ability and a market to to produce these bigger more exciting pieces of content as well as hardware I don't know back to the education thing though I think it could be phenomenal I mean I think that that was the the promise of cardboard but that was such a bad experience and then yeah that didn't end up being so cheap to $1.00 is expensive for like getting them in classrooms so like cardboard is still has the edge on like what you're leveraging a phone basically essentially a free adapter for the phone every family can you know can I don't know like oculus donated a headset to all the public libraries you know you know around the Bay Area I I could see them doing the same thing with the with the go to get it in schools I mean that's is they went a lot lock these kids in early all right Donald's for education though I think there's actually a bigger push for things like AR because there is that direct interaction with teachers and other students and things that were we don't have the technology yet in VR to have an AR you meeting right now is there right now holding the phone having a phone an answer system yeah so know that that seems to be a more approachable kind of educational realm is that that AR app you know that app well VR doesn't seem to be feeling a lot of pressure from AR right now no none at all at least in the consumer marketplace there's there's nothing out there but there's no y'all know that AR is where we all don't want to end up because VR is just a subset of AR you know with what this we walked out maybe soon we might have some AR competition maybe it's we have no products we haven't heard of any product announcements yet but more funding for for magic leap they just raised another half billion dollars that's nuts for with all the promise that they're gonna have this AR that's something something I hope it's good so I think that doubles their what they've raised no no it's I think it's as another 25% cuz I think they had I think they're now up to 2 billion oh my I don't know according to Wikipedia they have it has raised more than 540 million from Google Qualcomm andreessen horowitz so that like the original funders it's a lot okay yeah I mean it's it that they're valued at over you know many billions that's crazy without no product yeah no product it better I mean it must be a good demo people were smart people this blows my mind right like VCS who are willing to put their money in things they must have seen they might they must have some experience with what's out there yes and an understanding of the technology or advisers who understand this knowledge I've talked to people and they said it was cool that's I mean I've talked to people who have experienced it and they said that's it they're like I can't say anything else it was cool so it's win-win for us as consumers right if it ever comes out what is the options are when it comes out and it is cool yes that's that's great too it's completely like vapor we're not our money that we came into we had zero investment investment into the future all existing rich people their money that's their money right what we don't want is they invested so much that they for something bad to come out just to try to make some money back but I can't imagine an entire industry back but I can't imagine at this point they would just push something out the door the longer they wait the more competition there is yeah and the longer they wait the more POC invested they are and in trying to get something out to recoup something now that there's already set this mystique this buzz yeah like I do take your time get the funding do it right if your core technology is sound then what we're happy to wait because you know Apple isn't ready to jump in the game they're they're they're being smart and developing the the software infrastructure and getting developers to work at the existing pasture systems so they could have an understanding of the user interaction models and also maybe this stuff all gets imported to whatever system they they they make the future and and you know is there it's funny like the only other real competitor that I could think of is hololens to do this in a real AR and it's like yeah they released a product but i haven't heard any actually said no holland's - they said it's not that's be to be great for me to be you know what we're gonna step back we had a lead in it we have our inside out tracking let's not force something to the consumer that we think that isn't I mean that is smart I think this is really smart of them yeah I'll have to try to push some remark it just to be first right like something good not something first I mean they were first they were yeah yeah no it's just interesting if they pulled back and and I'm wondering what that's what what that means for something like magically like the fact that maybe it isn't as compelling as you know I think it's a really hard problem and everyone's realizing that how how hard how expensive a problem it is they pulled back but they also just launched five headsets in a VR yeah but they call it hololens technology i think they have their tracking technology in their friends yeah yeah yeah that's yeah which is good it's great I'm glad that the flick that took Suresh part of it yep thing that work the best because we'd use you know meta and and their slam system and hollands I thought was rock-solid it was not yeah absolutely a couple other bits in VR we did we talked about TB cast TB cast for for oculus so they announced when we were four that they are gonna support the rift this is the wireless system Trentham system accessory $250 that's in value I don't know I really hope it's not but if you're in the market where you're already have two headsets yeah like they want milk as much man from you as possible here's my big problem with add-ons and unfortunately oculus really didn't plan for this the cables the big heavy cable that goes from your head all the way back to your computer that's like 15 feet long if I'm doing TP cast where's that cable gonna go when is it gonna bundle up on the back of my head so like I have oh I think they come with new Able's but i can't replace it's hard it's the Occulus ones an oculist sorry that's why I'm saying octopus didn't plan for this accessory and it is you're gonna be there just the added weight of having to carry that whole cable around I was actually playing with that the other day I'm like wait a minute this is on your waist yeah it's gonna be a fashion accessory it's about a Kickstarter a clip that will clip it belt buckle there you go right oculus a big ol belt buckle they can work yeah I like it I mean it's good its products like this that mean the rift to will not be wireless you know if we can upgrade to wireless it means the rift - I hope the resin have a small cable no I'm asking for I don't think that's the biggest deal oh yeah you might bundle it up a little lasso on your belt yeah I like I mean what are the pros and cons from a product design prototyping standpoint sach you think of having is there any real pro to having it be a locked-in cable I thought the headset part ah just one less connector but there's lots of ways around that I mean like work good with connectors now HDMI seems pretty good I mean you'd need to have some other you know secondary locking system cuz again that moves around a whole bunch because a single cable it's a single cable aside but guys yeah ya know I mean and there's lots of ways of doing that you can overmolded multi connector cable like you also kinds of different things but yeah I mean I think the pros of being Wireless far outweigh any you know hassle to have a nice big I think the biggest things would be battery life like so many portable electronics that's gonna be the thing and then just management and like is it is a removable battery and do I have to you know pause for you know six hours while the thing charges I mean that's that's really what it boils down to is that end user experience with it is that you know is that worth it yeah and then speaking of a Ark it again in Apple and they are so there's this interview I guess was this with the independent Tim Cook talked about a are kid quite a bit I didn't read this no sure this boiled again yeah we're not gonna talk about this design have you guys used Eric Erica on your on your phone just a couple demos yeah I just downloaded a cup when I got my 8 I'm like ooh let's try something you know the IKEA I happened a couple of doubles yeah oh no not the plus I just have just a standard size and it works well with a camera yeah works really I mean I was really impressed with just like the measuring stuff and the way that it's doing you know that's actually doing tracking there's a couple of demos where you can kind of turn on all the debug information where it's actually showing you the points that it's tracking I was just really fascinated with that and the fact they can do that with one cameras as well as they do I've only tried it on my success and it's been I've tried it and confined spaces that don't work as well it likes a bigger room I find so I'd be curious to see your phone see how it compares we can fire it up I mean in the interview basically he says AR is like multi-touch was for interaction like AR is going to change the way we interact it's in the next paradigm for human-computer interaction if we get a good interface for it I mean right now holding this phone up isn't a good touch so right for them right it's compelling like you talked about all the great things in all the magic that is in terms of like that the record Special Recognition the slam stuff and but the fact is right now we're still holding flat things up this is not what I was talking about Tim's talking about something they haven't announced yet are you sure about that yes he's selling the product today he's selling developers of making it's working in AR kit today he doesn't care hissing don't worry about it ar is gonna be great just wait that's so rust in the Tim Wow he knows there Arnie he knows how much money they have to spend on it yeah they have all them I made you have all well you gotta give it up for space pirate trainer been around for a while now finally hit 1.0 version 1.0 you've got a lot of new enemies in there if you haven't gone and played for a while it's worth visiting there's a mothership the shows like we're on level 15 quite difficult some brand new baddies some new power-ups it's a it's a solid game you know it never became like the something bigger than standing on the platform and shooting stuff but I still say it's a good intro game it's the Galaga of ER he thing ever got too complicated in terms of how many weapons cuz it's it's a good intro game but like it seems like all the advances they made were Decatur the people who had got good yeah we've gotten really good at space pirate trainer people got really you know it's you get as far as you can I don't know if it got to you know it certainly is a hard game eventually but anybody can play it for a few levels right it's the pac-man yeah Galaga or Galaga sorry testing this week hey what have you guys been testing you guys been testing anything lately anything new in your shops in your life iPhone eight house iPhone a iphone eight is I well again coming from a five it's awesome but then everybody that I talk to it's like oh it's the same as the six or the same as a seven so I don't there's no great like wow look at this kind of thing but it just works it just kind of worked well and again because it's you know the latest hardware with the latest software it's uh you know it's a match have you tried the wireless charging I don't have a wireless charger I don't have a Qi charger anywhere so I'll try that in my bolt and see if it works oh nice yeah let's try that we can do that you don't you have wireless charger in the bowl yeah built-in is it is it a Qi yes you standard one yeah uh-huh yeah is it on a horizontal plane it's not it's a little sleeve that you put the phone into it so the 10 would fit in it but yours above an eight should yeah why wouldn't the 10 fit in it it's bigger the 10 minutes between the regular and the plus weight the actual physical size I heard it took an almost exact same thing as what as this as a standard size it's like the success yeah really yeah I thought it's bigger I think it's thicker I don't think it's okay bigger I will do that research things to try I mean is there a is there a CAD model is there 3d printers that's it I played a bunch of VR games last night looking for something interesting I played the Talos principle VR which I never I never played the original game you know the standard mouse and keyboard but it's a Crytek game so I your car team so I was interested it's kind of good looking not as good as you expect from that good from those guys and it's just kind of met I was I'm looking for the next great my you are game I want the next you know amazing thing that I fall in love with I played X rebirth for a few minutes it seems like elite dangerous is more my speed iron wolf VR is kind of interesting it's a submarine game yeah multiplayer and that's that's a great idea you're surrounded by all these big tools and machinery that you can use and it feels immersive like you've the red the lights go red when you go underwater you can pull the periscope down and run around you can fire torpedos you have to avoid you have to you know be stealthy it's fun it's fun I like I haven't played that with somebody yet because of course there's nobody and the multiplayer servers right but uh play with you guys sometimes you want absolutely I always see your head pop up in my VR but you're never on it yeah I am that's weird I know that man well warden with the future oculus home kaliba leave a post-it note for aerospace sorry miss yeah yep how about 6:00 p.m. tomorrow of course I've been a laser cutting away on the clove Forge flow Forge the pro model it's doing a lot of long etches and long long and graves they just released some some new software updates on their their front end so yeah turns out you do have to reboot the printer or at least put it online so yeah you won't see these updates if you just go to the app unless you're your printer your has been turned off and on glowforge is has been turned on since it was released oh very good so most of them if you have a glow Forge and they are shipping them now at least the early backers I think they improve their raster settings so if your if you upload a bitmap now you have a difference I guess they're getting rid of like the previously the settings the presets were like like light raster light engrave or dark engrave now it's like which like the are you it's more context-sensitive are you rastering a is it a photo etching a photo and your bitmap photo or a bitmap a line can line drawing or graphic art and then their settings are catered than that so I did some testing between photos and line drawings and then doing some vector etch I love vector etching now you've used other laser cutters yes and I'm curious so there it seems to be this and what I've heard I have action I haven't used a glowforge but there seems to be this kind of obfuscation of kind of control and is is there a way to get in and be like I want to do it at 25% of speed in 25 so you should go in and and muck with it yeah so there presets anytime you set go to one of their presets you can then go see a manual control and I'll show you the corresponding manual cell presets which they encourage you actually write that down I encourage you write that down because there are presets may change like we may get rid of their photo their last their you know six months ago photo setting which you might have really liked right because they want to make things transparent and just work so you want to write those settings down and it's it's more than just like for laser cutters from what I understand like you have speed and power those are the two primary settings you also have pulses per inch I don't know if you have that control as well you have so they have a dpi yes okay so those were a raster it's gonna be those I don't think I don't think that's what that is and then there's also the density of how how far it moves in the y direction for each x pass so that's what yeah we're thinking about as that is per inch there their dpi is the equivalent to line - vertical line at y Y movement right is there a difference between the two laser technologies where one uses pulses and the other doesn't why would I yes so tube lasers or continuous and meta lasers are pulses right and so maybe the metal lasers there you have more control over they have the pulse that's right I haven't used to blazer in a laser cutter but they bump in sin red you know aluminum tube lasers yeah so we so you get like a dpi setting if you want and which works really well if you want like the gradient in graves right if you want to upload a depth map essentially and have really deep cuts you can do something has some fancy stuff with that and then there's also the way they process the you raster because there's a two settings it can be dots or a pattern they call it so this is a way they they cuz your image I could be upload you know ten megapixel image it's not gonna look like 10 megapixels right I need to do some processing on how how you turn a pixel into a series of dots really there used to be a program I'm sure they're still out there called the raster bader you know that would take a you know bit Matt bitmap image and then convert it into different kind of pre process or post process forms right wonder if it's similar to that yeah yeah it's gonna optimize it for what the laser is gonna do and so there are some things are gonna work better for the dot system and that that all is given to you can like to switch between those options sounds like a work in progress it totally is like there are things that I just really want I know it's in their pipeline like I want to bility this pause pause the laser cut pause a job right and do it over to our job and like I need to step away for to answer the door like you're technically here I don't want to leave the room like I watch the positive for half an hour present its I guess it's coming but I think it may have to do and again the club Ford's people please correct me for wrong but because of the cloud software right because a lot of stuff is setting these dropship Amazon key so that when their doors they can cut my laser cutting I just want to save manual settings that shouldn't be too much to ask yeah you can't save you can't make your own custom settings yet lots of asks but hey it's it's it's a version one product and and again these are all software things so that's the cool thing about that's where so think is this can all change some some basic design like also like Jeremy you know you can import a really great raster stuff rest room is your Trek and drop trike and drop a photo it's gonna it's gonna edge that photo in it's gonna write engrave that photo but I want to cut it out of my piece well you can't just draw a box or draw a circle I want like some very basic primitives yeah or cut lines yeah let me draw a box and say if you have a great web interface we draw boxes they cut that out right but then they're also basically making a cat or a 2d drawing package on top of that so that you can see why there's a lot of work about engineering get a lot of totally a lot of work I'm not asking for Tinkercad just asking it for a square or no ellipse there you go right and let it and let me stretch cut lines by two dimensions or something but the fact is you have a laser cutter at home I have one to my computer it's still amazing the fact that I have a 4k monitor with a laser cutter and a VR headset we live in Star Trek it in a 3d printer all in one room they can all be working at the same time that's my blowing yeah it is very cool so we'll be doing more testing with that yeah lots of people of great ideas like I think the trick I'm finding is try to make laser like try to get out of get out of your system the standard laser cut things right I'm getting all like the getting all the I get all aligned arc and all the the etching engraving photos like then start thinking of like what does it mean to do mixed-media what does it mean to use the laser cutter to and you know to cut felt or to cut foam yeah or to fabricate or fabric or or but different materials and combine it with what you can do with the 3d printer right if you design in your models like recesses to do in lays lays for these are cut pieces how do you start building with I mean there's yeah again you you kind of get any any tool I mean I collect tools and it's you know each one of those gives me more capabilities and it's it's yeah it's it's inspiring I look at all of these things is like okay now that I have one more bit of you know technology I can do even more stuff and like I said layering I think is really the key your wife Danica is a crafty maker yeah yeah showing an interest in there's some felt this weekend that's cool I recommend micro suede micro suede yeah so it's it's it's a synthetic suede like material but it has a really nice edge and it also edges really cool so you can match the micro suede it gives you a good contrast oh and then for being a fabric it works worked really nicely thank you buy it online you can very cool awesome pics of recognition sure anything else you guys want to talk about I'm testing I've been you know III my latest thing has been teaching I started teaching a class over the college over in Oakland and I've been testing all kinds of hardware to teach people how to build things and that's been a fun it's it's funny you kind of get out of the sort of Hobby world when you're doing things professionally and then everyone small you kind of peek over the fence and you go hey what's the latest in Arduino and what's the latest in sort of always a little you know project boards and what's out there and it's amazing I mean I just just in a year or two of not paying as close attention as I should you know there's there's all kinds of cool wearable devices and little boards that support all the latest chips you know when there's a new mp3 decoder or some new light sensor or some new it's like there's there's always this you know kind of new new crop of hardware that comes out so you know going through Sparkfun and ADA fruits website just kind of seen what's out there has been been a lot of fun and and I now have an excuse to sort of browse and say oh I should try these out so lots of lots of little bits of hardware been lots of fun something I couldn't find from either those guys was a galvanic skin response yeah measuring system yeah I found one that seed Oh a seed is great in China yeah I I bought a couple of those being super cheap like 30 bucks you gonna hook them up to your kids just find out if they're telling lies yes you can grill them oh okay well thank you so much Zack for coming by we're having me people find you online build cool stuff calm I don't do a lot on the social media as much I do have a Twitter account which i think is build cool builds builds stuff Zack build cool stuff sack I don't know I don't even see I don't even remember what it is if you need to get ahold of me build cool stuff calm there's lots of links on there to email all right thank you again we got to have you back and we'll get that full orange story I mean people love you having you on and instead of having you on I love being here and we love hearing about things you make and if you're in town in San Francisco this week the Saturday please come by and check us out we're at the Castro theatre at 7:00 p.m. tickets are as low as 15 bucks if you wanted to watch us do some stuff on save Adam has a really great talk but he's going to give a good presentation so hope to see you there tickets are at tested at 2017 eventbrite.com and until then we have an outro from then ill all right here we go there was nothing underneath her it was amazing I mean it was amazing I build stuff Zac there you go that's my Twitterthis week's episode of this is only a test is brought to you by a privy are you moving your business to office 365 working the cloud can make your life a lot easier but getting help that's another story that's why you should try a prefer they have one of the most experienced support teams in the business you'll get free us-based support from folks who care about helping you and actually know how and if you're going with office 365 go with App River try it at River services free for 30 days by going to app river comm slash test that's appr iv'e our.com slash test for thursday october twenty-fifth two days before our live show three days before our live show welcome to this is only a test the official podcast of tested calm hello and welcome everyone to a very busy week of the tested office indeed I'm norm joined by Jeremy Williams hello Norman and hello good morning and a very special guest returning for second third time on their Zak riding I use that I'm excellent thanks for having me again absolutely and thank you for joining us cuz sure is taking this week off because he is busier than anyone we know he's not taking the week off no no just in the podcast he runs the Bay Area Science Festival which our live show is a part of so he is actually frantically making phone calls setting thing ups making things happen so we can have a great week of festivities that's isness as usual for to sure absolutely extra busy yes yeah and he listens to the podcast too so maybe he'll you'll appreciate all the kudos we're giving him thank you cash or but Zak how are things going excellent things are busy as always busy with work busy with fun you know building lots of things being this builder an ability professional maker of things I do yes that's what pays my bills yeah so if you missed any of the two up past two episodes that Zak was a guest here a quick overview you are a contract for hire maker designer prototype prototype er of physical objects exactly so mechanical electronic you name it if if you need need a thing I'm good at making those things you found a way to make making a profession I know I did somehow I just kind of kept doing it and then you know freed up something that would pay me for it it sound really yeah cool stuff at your website do cool stuff calm so what do people come to you for whatever people completing for that you can talk about recently all the reasons the hard one in like the product development or any kind of development it's like oh yeah nobody wants you to talk about their stuff you know I it I can more talk about the stuff that I always come up with I mean that's that's the easy one you still do a plenty of site project for projects on your honor absolutely I'm you know I love making you know puzzles and games and last time I was here we talked about I built a a camping trailer a little teardrop trailer though all done that's all done well done is a relative term I get like all projects that are passion projects you know you always want to improve you kind of you know you look at it you use it a couple times go oh well if I had more shelves or more drawers or more whatever right you know I need to add more solar powers really with the you know Oh does it have solar panels it has solar panels there's a refrigerator in the back so I can keep my ice cream cold when I'm out in the desert you took it to Bernie MIT I did take it that was kind of the it ended up being a Burning Man project even though it didn't set out that way it was like up to you know the last minute right before the night I left was you know working on the trailer had a drastic dramatic shortage of LEDs if it was really a burning no LEDs are not nearly enough LED and probably not you know no fur no no fun accessories but it was it was actually really great for the desert I can be cool trust us is it all the way out there I have been it absolutely I found all the loose bolts as I went I kept kind of I would drive about you know two hours and then go around and check all the bolts make sure they were still tight you know actually found a couple loose ones so yeah that was a good stress test it worked and looking forward to keep using it Congrats panel aw thanks you know where does it live now yeah it lives in the core of my shop so huh did you take it through a big car wash when you came back I did I took it through a car wash and then still spent you know a good couple hours finding all the the dust apply a dust that seems to hide everywhere there's still applied to us you never get rid of playa dust it's it's kind of like matter you cannot destroy it to another yeah everyone right after Burning Man every other price goes up the price goes double from Burning Man your car washed and it cost a little bit more if you go Zach's website that's build cool stuff calm there's a project's page and look and it has some of the projects that you're thinking we can talk about remember what's up there I feel funny because a lot of these products are things that we've use or have you even used recently for example we were just toying around with the structure sensor oh yeah a couple weeks ago and you did some work for that I did let's see boy that's been four or five years ago cuz I you know again ice I come in the beginning of the design cycle so by the time it actually makes it to market I mean still a couple years old as you know as a product but it's a cool little device so I worked on some of the original interface of the primeSense sensor or some of the battery stuff some of the communication with the iPhone or iOS device and and yeah I did some of the board layout in there yeah it was it was a really fun project and actually that was the first time I got to play with structured light you know sensing so 3d sensing through projection of lots of little dots and learning how that all works and and that's it's it's it's a pretty cool technique for a lot of things now is it was in connect and it's in basically your iPhone will have a similar feature 30,000 dots 30,000 dots exactly yes staring into those lasers they and then they have to do a lot of things to make sure that you don't get blind by that or it doesn't burn itself up there's actually I mean I don't know about in the iPhone but I know in the prime sense sensor there's like active cooling you know because the little laser diode takes you know so much energy to send out that much that much light so there's all kinds of complexity in it so Noor mentioned a project last week about computer vision not prime sense but this standard computer vision a computer playing pinball oh yes and that made me want to do that for real I mean this we should do that that seems like a project would you depth-sensing for them know the game but I guess you use you can assume you can assume if there's a multi levels yeah yeah you probably can figure that out okay story here I was at a event science hack day hackathon two day event and one of the projects that came out the suit event was a pinball robot that had a webcam looking just at the flippers so like the bottom you know fifth of the the pinball the play field and they coated it enough so that if the ball got close to the flipper before 20 hole it would activate yeah see but I think that's the beginning right I mean you can think of all the ways as pinball nerds you guys think of all the ways that you need to strategize like the end goal what your brain is going through and as you're watching a ball run around the play field but even the bare minimum of looking down at the flippers yeah the things you'd want to measure angle velocity vector do those calculations that non-trivial well it isn't it isn't that's the cool thing about technology these days like there's so much you know standing on the shoulders of giants you know with open CV and and sort of all these packages for doing that sort of vision processing and then you know you can you can easily build up those things with kind of off-the-shelf hardware now I mean again ten years ago it was really hard but now you can do it in the weekend or even in a couple hours and get the basics but then but the real magic is taking the brain out of you know somebody that is a pinball wizard and making it actually good so that's a would you do that way would you take all of Jeremy's knowledge and his experience you couldn't have fit that or would you let the system she learn the Atari experimental would let like they they didn't teach the game how to play the Atari 2600 games they just said computer here's and learn how to play it the beauty with pinball is the metric is pretty easy yeah keep the ball in play yeah and and try to score it has a metric built in so the I mean it's almost a perfect AI computer learning you know setup I think that'd be a fun project it's not about needing to get the high score in this amount of time as long as you keep it alive there's no time of it there is no time well I guess the thing you couldn't account for is the slots on the side the holes on the side like you want it you'd want to find a way you want the machine learning to find a way to get you the trajectories and velocities to not because that's that's area where you have no control over well I guess you know a player is constantly nudging the table so with the AI would you put a nudge table constantly what does that walk in the line between tilt and nudging how would you describe the difference between a tilt the knife I tilt your balls over that's it because the tilt sensor in there there's actually a little tilt Bob that swings right right right so your whole body is braced against them the table yeah well that's in there because if you shake the game it's an advantage so you or you'll make the ball last those are your micro nudges like what is I don't know what is that what is the computer capable of get me wow that's a lot the other project that I wanted to call I actually enjoyed some of this yesterday you work for a smitten ice cream I did it's I'm actually wearing some smitten schwag all right they open a new shop in the in the mission yeah okay so it's a pop but we actually covered so four people don't know and we have a lot of requests about like recommendations for things that you have you're in San Francisco or if you're in the Bay Area because there are so many things to do and one of the things I always tell people is that we have a lot of we're kind of like peak boutique ice cream right now like there's even a museum Hoppa and there's a I think there's a third peak coffee right once one small batch coffee what was over now that so mainstream I know and now it's about small batch ice cream but we had covered back in 2012 when they had their first pop-up it was pulled out of a shipping container yeah it was a Robin su sure sure yeah that's right the founder she had started this liquid nitrogen ln2 ice cream machine absolutely and now they have like storefronts and so I once one yesterday and I didn't realize you would work on it so what did you do for them I did a number of things over the years kind of help with their whole process and and kind of improve their machines that the ice cream is sort of one piece of it but they're actually a technology company and in addition to just making really good ice cream so they've actually built these custom machines to make their ice cream they call them burn machines with lots of bars and others I remember went back when they were called the Kelvin that's a few versions ago but I actually helped work on the machines and some of the algorithms that are in there in between the conversion from Kelvin to the burr and then help them gather data so that they can monitor their machines and send out recipes to different shops and realize the whole infrastructure yeah it's for recipes it's not just about the the rate at which you pour it solvers it's all kinds of factors to make that perfect you know perfect scoop of ice cream and they really take the time to do it and they're really perfectionist when it comes to their ice cream so it's really shows the design and they're not a sponsor but I love the design of theirs their storefront because like how fancy can you make and how high-tech can you make an ice cream shop but you walk in first of all they have like you see a giant liquid nitrogen tank in the back just like expose it's not a high-tech shop at all it has this really good homey kind of like country feel but mixed with this right but it's it's exposed it's like going to a brewery and you see yeah the vets you see they'll and then on the outside you actually see where like the truck pulls up plug it in and and if you come early in the morning you'll see that kind of all frosted over cuz it ya know it's a really fun fun store not just because they're a customer of mine and it's just kind of a neat need organization they make really good ice cream that's not really cool yeah we're not gonna go into the full conversation of like how you got to do what you've got to do but someday we'll get it done yeah yeah yeah yeah let's let's talk about some some pop culture going live show no oh well yes I mentioned at the top our live show is this Saturday that's what we're all planning on right now everyone in this room is gonna be there either be on stage or to watch and we hope to see you there it's in San Francisco at the Castro theatre what tickets are it's so slim tickets available I think at a tested 2017 eventbrite.com to see you there and Sean and Jeremy have a project that they tested yesterday mm-hmm it works yep whatever excited is it means 100% it will work on stage excitement yeah 100 was that your confidence your the amount of confidence you felt was whirring yes you the fact that I felt confident right was definite right because that means it is not Murphy's Law is gonna play effect and sometimes new potentially go wrong so be there for that and if you're not at our live show I know I'm the only thing you'll be doing is probably watching stranger things - yeah which comes out this Friday or you'll be hungover from watching it the night before yeah so do you binge watch it or do you make it last you know I'm of the mind you gotta make this one last mmm you're mean it's such a big deal so the reviews reviews have come out for the second season and they have been glowing I have not read the actual reasons I've just read the summary that the reviews are great so no I don't want it only the headline I don't trust ya the review like even the spoiler free reviews give too much yeah and they're trying their clever ways to avoid spoilers but the timing is perfect coming up like right before Halloween yeah I don't want to spend my entire Sunday watching this show and like burning myself out I'm gonna take it maybe two episodes at a time why do you think they do these reviews this was such a hit on Netflix I see the reviews are to get people who I mean even though Netflix views you put ubiquitous there's still a lot of growth to be had even in the United States you mean for subscriptions yeah yeah and they want to make sure the people who are subscribed are gonna watch everything even if they're not in the quote-unquote target market yeah but don't you think that there would have been enough reviews if they'd hadn't released it earlier that the people who professionally write for papers and websites that they would have reviewed it including companies have to exist for a reason I'd say the marketing for I think it's still that engine that is still based on you know how movies are released it's like okay if we if we have initial focus groups that say it's good okay then we'll let it out a week early to get to reviewers right you can always tell those movies are gonna be flops because there's no measure no they don't really yeah so like Netflix has a I don't know if it's a problem I mean you mean South Park made a joke that they approve everything and there's buying up shows and producing so much but there's so much that goes by because it is the binge method right and like stranger things maybe the hot thing this week maybe building up to it but it may be coming completely different but they want to make cultural they want to win awards and they want to have cultural phenomenons and like stranger things was a cultural phenomenon last year so for sure it makes sense for them to tap into that now what year why do you think I mean is there any advantage to them - for people to binge-watch it versus do an episode you're questioning their entire well no no no their model is is streaming content and but the release schedule release schedule like that that has always kind of puzzled me if I was like you kind of think you would still have as many eyeballs but if you stretch it out over a long period of time but they just give us these like massive doses and I almost get like an overload of media when they release this what it is for me is I feel competitive with everyone else because to get caught up because I want to be on track with everyone that's a said for going into test into one week and you know catching up on the latest Star Trek discovery because that's as far as you could go right but here you can did you watch the whole season or not how how much can I talk about if it made the calculated risk that the watercooler week-to-week is is only valuable if you're an HBO model where you're producing you know your staggering all your releases they want the value proposition to be so front and center but I guess it's anticipation once versus anticipation on a weekly basis and I feel like that I miss that but education on a weekly basis only is valuable on the HBO model if you know you're not gonna be it's not 12 shows at the same time it's like two or three at most staggered you know West world's gonna be a this block to be more interested in a lot of content as well right right but Netflix it's it's all stacked yeah yeah and well Voltron they split up they shoot like seven episode seasons about six months apart but I like that too and I like splitting up I think starship Discovery's doing that as well where they're taking a 13 episode fourteen episodes in and spending up the two halves I think it's production companies playing it safe because if it's a flop then they are only spending their only doling out half their money at a time but their pocket I think it's playing it safe for the subscription model too because then you don't want people to just subscribe for that one or the one month row and then onto a binge and then not be subscribe and unsubscribe after the trial month because they need to give people reason to keep it on for at least a year yeah so they have those considerations though if you look at my HBO subscription schedule it obviously you actually I do I'm like I get my I get my fix and then I'm like alright well now that's that's why they sometimes make it very difficult for people to cancel yeah I mean it's it's not easy for people to call in and cancel the cellphone subscription like HBO I think it's better it's good they make it pretty make it's kind of nice yeah almost on-demand but they bank on most people just leaving it lazy yeah that's 15 bucks a month 13 bucks a month that sounds like Oh a month audibles like they'd do the same thing like oh in terms of like the credits yeah that's accumulate like the only way you should ever buy a book from audible is as a member because it's so much cheaper and so I'll sign that to be member and then if I remember I will cancel but if I don't six credits in my account Wow and speaking of Star Trek discovery that has now been renewed for a second season all right so that's surprising I think yes to me because how expensive they said this show was gonna cost exactly like ten million dollars in episode or I don't know because that may be that was that's not for every episode but in the multiple millions of dollars or episodes is in that Game of Thrones you know HBO price range and CBS all access is not as design as high stature so as HBO go or HBO so so you have to wonder are they making their money apparently I mean they they have making enough to warrant it and at least it's getting enough of making their surface relevant so I don't think it's gonna I don't think they're making it all the way back now it's curation on my part but it makes their service relevant and makes gets people talking about it so that when they're ready to announce more shows and and know that they're gonna be doing more shows they are yeah okay they're already doing two right now and then their plan is I mean oh no it's so important they gotta be filling this those holes in do you expect season one to come to terrestrial TV so that was the other thing I was thinking I think so I think they're gonna release season one on I mean just like HBO releases and Netflix even Netflix releases their shows on blu-ray right like you can subscribe or you can buy it on blu-ray yeah Star Trek discovery is formatted in a way that there's room for the commercial breaks they're like they they pause they fade out and fade in and it feels like they have commercial breaks so used to that from Netflix think about it that's interesting like I'm watching next-gen or something where they do that right right right but a Netflix show doesn't really Netflix show just goes on it's known our movie yeah yeah but discovery actually I don't know if you notice it but actually does like the fader I don't know if it's a stylistic thing to me I feel like a Star Trek show yeah or if it's built in into this the act 1 act 2 act 3 structure for commercial breaks but it feels like they could do commercial breaks are all the episodes exactly the same life that's I don't mean down to the minute yeah that'd be a tell yeah I mean they would read it they have no problem if they were gonna do like a thrust or broadcast your reality game or do a big sponsored by I put in a bad time right time slot and say free from Crosman where it breaks this thing sponsored by this company night tide cleaning for your Star Trek shirts I don't know yeah are you watching sort of discoveries that I'm not again it's that is that cheap side of me it's same thing that's cancelling okay I'm like I'm actually waiting for it to come out in in a in a set where I can get on Amazon or some other service just to binge binge watch it but but yeah I mean I'm gleaning enough from friends and family that that are into it that that I know that it is my my style of entertainment just I can't there's nothing else on CBS that I can't write about yeah so who is it will when will was here he said he was subscribe to see us all access before a Star Trek aired because they were right demographic for the CSI shows or the Big Bang Theory or whatever like is it is the flavor I'm sure there is a large part it's a not nonzero who part of the population because will at least yes just a man is this room maybe not as much yeah yeah all all trek yeah but maybe if you're not subscribed to CBS all access you can spend that money elsewhere maybe buying a Nintendo switch and playing the new hottest game coming out this this week also also Friday also Fridays goodness I can't play and I could do any other sort the live show I just want to know because I this is like this is like movie studio is competing for a movie release dates and booked in our live show date almost a year in advance it's always like the Saturday before Halloween and honestly there's no hard feelings if you're in the audience playing Mario on your switch I'm we're watching stranger things on your iPhone it's all good so just find me I'll save an empty seat don't no spoilers that's right Mario Odyssey is coming out this Friday I am super excited I don't think I'm gonna play it I want to save it until Christmas is that crazy that is crazy because I you don't get these that often and it is a Christmas item I don't have the water cooler talk use you binge Zelda you finished a Zelda that hasn't been in like a week and a half dude I was in a wait all year for Zelda but but I mean Mario is the antithesis of than intent the fact that it it's we've had to wait this long a real Mario and Mario that Mario games traditionally have been linear in terms of world one one world one - yeah it is perfect for the water cooler talk how far along the game are you Zelda being more open-ended yeah it's not a water cooler game there's no shame in I don't know stretching it out yeah here come next week we're gonna be Jerry did you see that amazing thing in world 1 to me first thing in the first 30 minutes of the game maybe maybe I like video games Christmas means video games to me because when I was a kid it's what I used to get and so I I want that feeling gasps private yeah I want to spend much nobody give it to me so that no you want someone a gift you want to I don't want to give somebody that you that kid has mine 64 AD this is Red Rider BB gun exactly yeah I don't know that seems like a nice thing to do to me play you know I don't need to play it right now I can enjoy hearing about from you that's fine okay yeah I you wait for the reviews yeah reviews do come out Thursday guys which and the fact that it's not a week before is that telling I that's a really good question there were there there is already like there too early reviews already out edge magazine has a magazine has a ten out of ten review okay for Mario and the Japanese magazine Famitsu gave it a 39 out of 40 so it's it's up there it's it's supposed to be as good as or you know as Zelda which you know one of the best games of all time at this point yep so I don't you're a launch consul with two best games of all time potential yeah contenders in one year it's all I need that makes that system and and the switch becoming readily available you can buy one on Amazon right now you know now that I think about it I think part of it is that I'm not as excited to play this as I have been previous Mario games because of the previews that I've seen I'm not really turned on by the real world new york city look that mario goes into a doubt the new dog city they won that when they announced this game the big part of the trailer was mario in this like exactly grand theft auto hello world' real world' real world' yeah it turns out that's not a big part of the game that's only one aspect of it i saw that there were many aspects to it yeah worried me was that was the the power of the switch itself because they showed this trailer for this mario game sorry Thank You Jimmy thank you for that the switch sound yeah when they announce the hardware its mobile Android hardware it's like it's a Tegra it's a it's a last gen right if idiot amber chip and the big fear for before result that came out and when they first showed this autumn art Odyssey was that or these gonna be dumb down experience its I can you Phil have a full open world GTAC our game on this type of hardware and Zelda proved one you can day one and two Mario honestly proves that you can do that GT a thing and also have also the other 90% of the game in the classic Mario aesthetic and pack a lot of content I mean they've got some success getting non-traditional developers now at least in ten developers putting games on switch you're gonna see doomed this way the new one the most recent one yeah there's not yeah the one that came out last year on switch yes he'll be 30fps but they say the experience is gonna because almost exactly the same and then the Wolfenstein game like I'm considering not playing it on PC I'm most likely eyes on PC but the appeal of it being portable and at exact same game yes but there's something compelling again being poor boy I mean screen size come on I mean for a game like Wolfenstein or doom it's like it has to be in your face I mean that is that intensity if you know yeah but like the idea that you can get the full story experience right right you if you're putting on headphones you get the full like action and gameplays the action the gameplay the reason I'll play it on a 4k monitor one for the keyboard or Mouse but you can all the cinematics all the fidelity of that on on something you can take a press plane when you're hooked on a game you take it however you can get it yeah you know yeah so very excited but now that we're back in the technology let's talk about tech news alright so we mentioned primeSense which microsoft acquired primeSense is that right they actually acquired them and I think they were separate from at least a little while hmm okay but that technology is in not only in like the structure sensor but also Microsoft Kinect the first one the first one at least yes yes and there was a new Kinect when the Xbox one came out and we all knew it was gonna be the case when Microsoft decided that it was not gonna be a mandatory packin accessory that one stays made the Kinect optional for developers and optional for consumers that it did may not have a long life and that is absolutely the case so the Kinect is gonna officially stop production on the Microsoft Kinect for Xbox one the new one that's crazy is that like the Xbox one is how old now two years old to something like that yeah two or three years old it's an interesting thing because you know you look at sort of competing technologies I mean in some ways all of our VR whether it's oculus or vive or whatever it is has some sort of motion tracking technology it's almost like they're they're canning it before they've come up with their next thing it's it's I mean in some ways I would love a Kinect tied into my oculus so that I can have body and hand tracking right without actually doing you know you know I think it up being cost right the cost versus the versus the market who's who's blind and also who's developing for it because I think the excitement of you know I'm gonna develop games for this very you know dedicated hardware that doesn't really have a analog on the PlayStation anymore I mean it used to be the psi the psi but that kind of lost luster once we got to you know PlayStation VR so but the PS I became a part of PSP are they got a name accessory to be used it did as almost a hack though because that became the motion tracking device not it they no longer track you know just your body so you used to play kung-fu gantry it's right around the right almost connect like yeah yeah really great skeletal model really nice and it could do so many cool things I think that the problem is that because it wasn't a mandatory pack in the games that were supported really had the Kinect focus game they tried they tried you know selling the bundles with the Kinect earlier with it with with specially with the previous generation right but just nobody wanted to play those game and they were also complete undercut with the ps4 launched that year right back in 2014 that's what it was three years Wow not so it's really sad because a lot of that passive functionality I think is where like the cool stuff that the Kinect come you know the facial recognition yeah like the things that that they just can't explore anymore like I don't need Kinect centric games but I would like that functionality connect to make its way and to enhance games in some way well I mean it's it's really interesting you actually look at some of the technology that went into it so like they did a lot of voice recognition so you could do voice commands and stuff through the Kinect sensor like that was part of it they did all the motion tracking I mean there's there's a lot of pieces of that that are sort of cutting-edge now just in different you know for VR for instance or your Amazon echo or you're sort of all these different they just it's almost like they they came in too early and they didn't have quite the exact target to you know to really sell it and they are also maybe misled by how successful the first Kinect was I think as an accessory because of the marketing hype this again the first Kinect maybe didn't have long legs but initially that holiday launch it was useful because it was something novel it was having different and they had enough games to support it and did really well as an optional accessory so when the Xbox one came around it made a lot of sense for then upgrade that and put it in but they didn't stick with it because maybe the market moved past them but it all sticks away that ability for them to what is Microsoft wanna do with VR on the Xbox one you know with the Scorpio they have said that VR somewhere in the future they don't think if they think that you know they're mixed reality design is gonna be PC first right now but if there's no Kinect how do you get that type of VR tracking experience on on xbox it would be something separate you have to be some some type of inside out probably inside out tracking well clearly I mean that's that's what they're banking on so not outside in you don't need to suffer camera they'll sell headsets whenever VR comes Xbox headsets with inside out which honestly is the easier setup experience for setup absolutely well whether whether it gives you a you know the same fidelity that's that's really the question and oh you know and it comes out to developers again I mean I think it's it's how well do developers you know plan their interfaces so that you know can I see my hands and can I interact with things that are outside my field of view or at least the the camera field of view and I think if you're designing a VR experience for the living room it may be slightly it can be different than this have a VR experience you want your experiences there gonna be a cross-platform write like that's gonna get the most out mark your audience but like PS VR experiences aren't exactly the same as the PC VR experiences because one you know there's gonna be a couch you know there's me a TV have ability for you know asymmetric experiences people on the couch doing something you know people are we facing forward you know that most living rooms are set up to this type of configuration you maximize that you're not only a lot of 360 room scale walking around it's mostly gonna be in the kind of standing in like you know your your four foot by four foot area type of thing so maybe that doesn't need full training cameras and grant tracking yeah I mean it enough for living room it just depends what the expectation is yep absolutely and if you have the TV and you do inside out tracking you also have another reference point yeah you know that there can be things to pop them TV or you can you can calibrate to your TV as a tracker sure as a marker the more interesting use for Kinect that I wasn't you know what was watching was the robotic stuff yeah so are there alternatives to connect that are just as easy to implement I mean there's there's all sorts of things I mean basically do you know oh yeah all of your lidar you know scanners and you know they're much more expensive I mean it's the thing with the Kinect was it was a because it was a commodity item it was commodity you know spatial location and distance measurement and that was it's hard to come by in fact I mean a lot of people use the off-the-shelf and I don't know if they're actually getting rid of the the Windows one the Windows one as well are they are you're nodding yes I I don't know I would assume they would yeah I think but that was I mean that was like a really cool thing for hundred fifty bucks like you get you know something that you can do slam or you can do you know scanning or you could do all these different things there was a very mature development community is surrounding them absolutely and anytime that you have you know sort of high tech that goes into a commodity product that you can then leverage into kind of the Hobby world that's huge so doing the same thing with other yes there's lots of ways of doing the same thing you know there's the realsense stuff that's still sort of floating around and I think even Intel's coming out with some some new hardware for that in the next couple months now that's all using just stereo cameras and and they've got some custom Asics for doing deb mapping depth mapping with that but yeah i mean it's it's it's kind of sad that that that's no longer gonna be as readily available so i would imagine the you know aftermarket you know supply of those is gonna last the hobbyist a while but we'll see him no one apologized primeSense wasn't microsoft was Apple who bought prime cents that's why I got confused okay yes is that true because there was a rumor about that a few years ago but then I thought maybe they acquired at one of their competitors no I mean as of 2013 um you know what maybe it's still a rumor or speculation yeah I made this noise than you strong I know that wasn't a prime sense sensor in the second connect that was only in the first connect got it got it Sam speaking of other Xbox news this week Xbox also finally really enabled backward compatibility with the original Xbox is this the only people were excited about like how many Xbox one or Xbox 1s owners still helped hold on to their old Xbox games I think it's it's that nostalgia thing I mean I think for some people that was their Christmas morning and they opened up their their Xbox you know I can't say Xbox one but their Xbox original this is the problem with console gaming right what like on PC you wouldn't have this PC you good old games you steam like but this much that's more of a pain in the butt like that's not good right if you buy the the clasps up on little guns it's just DOSBox like it's DOSBox with the game in it and you hope it runs right that's because there's a long much longer history of PC games yes but if we're talking about a game that came out in like the mid thousands or like early thousands with actual original Xbox all those PC games are gonna on your Windows PC most of most of them were gonna run are you in it coach or right now it's Republic's and run on your Windows as you see ya now Qatar will run on your Xbox one Ilana along with curtains got along with crimson sky so it's like a a dozen games so what's the deal if you already own these back in the day like if you owned them digitally do you just get them again or do you have to buy them again oh oh you have the license for cuz that's one of the benefits of the digital download right like Microsoft knows I own it they're gonna give it to me again right so really they're there in the store you can buy them again for sure well that's nothin but that's not a surprise ten bucks 10 bucks seriously yeah dude yeah these aren't even sixty game or more and you can't even play them so I guess you can play them now yeah but I don't know I don't know if they're in your account if the Xbox one infrastructure or Xbox Live such luck sure it could you even have my online we could do the Xbox one even have it in the digital download you mean the original Xbox yeah yeah you know I don't think the Xbox one store oh well then maybe they don't know you own them yeah I think I can't yeah Wow hold you on someone's holding behind that disc that crimson skies I mean I wonder if eBay prices for these have jumped up to definitely not more than ten dollars but like from $0.99 to two dollars oh they I'm saying they actually run the actual disc it's not a digital download okay yeah will they run the actual disc you have to buy them so hip I don't like this yeah can I get them all for like $30 what you want a pack you want the pack and you want them to take off the so you can redeem your UPC code and then make the back like a little bit cheaper you know what these are great games Prince of Persia awesome original pretty the the xbox printer is not the original and piecing of the time or whatever yeah that one was became changing for for platformers for 3d action platformers by the way Apple did by prime sense you were right you were right yeah yeah it was it was rumored and then confirmed we were all arriving I never played Knights of the Old Republic I'm that guy whoa I know I know people think it's the best game ever we pass we boil it I cook what the game no I never got to a spoiler because I put I tried it like two or three times so you're not a fan of those Bioware RPGs I guess I'm well my different it's different than Mass Effect though cuz now seem like they're structurally they're very similar the mechanic said combat is all dice rolls in Knights of the Old Republic are mass there are kind of dice rolls dice rolling max I do doesn't yeah but don't they make you feel like you have more agency totally it's like right you you aim but I'm looking for in life aim and you press the button and then they do a dice roll just make me feel it your weapon to have to make the weapon better in some way they can't make it you know yeah I just want I just want joy I just want I want to hear what I want okay Joe Jarrett Jeremy J you know I've been using the essential phone for uh I guess it's like three weeks now since New York Comic Con and we're new a review it's I like it a lot and the price was a big problem for me as $700 but for anyone considering it and I know the pixel to is out now but this is a nice bare-bones phone with not a great camera system the price is now $200 cheaper it's it's been out for a month but they've cut the price just whatever at all with the original iPhone yeah and I think it's because they've had some issues with the camera system and the reviews haven't been great but it's it's kind of sad because it's a small company and it's one of those couple of things that showed that you didn't need to be a multi-billion dollar company to release a really great smartphone there's a lot of parts that you can get in suppliers you can talk to and let in with the small design team you can come with something with something that's great but it they didn't have the engineering for the software side like I got a camera side they did try to do some novel things with our camera fusion it actually I'm gonna go as a black-and-white camera and a color camera and it fuses the images together to give you more detail but that then takes the shutter speed from a millisecond to like two seconds right so it's kind of unfortunate it doesn't bode well that now it's $500 and anyone who bought a central phone before like it I think they have credit back to buy accessories if you want to like get their 360 km 204 for accessories it has magnetic ports in the back for a 360 camera yeah but I feel bad I feel bad for them because I wanna see companies like this succeed well it's not still not cheap I mean hopefully they're still making money yeah yeah I mean that also blows my mind like consumers we think that phones because we trained by Apple trained by other higher manufacturer Samsung phones are $600 they're like $300 to manufacture right sure but everybody has to take their cut it's a big cut and it is yeah the average selling price only goes higher for their margins go higher where you listen to like the Apple earnings calls like they care about what that margin is per device of course absolutely and that's why you see you know everybody carrying an iPhone and you know Target and Walmart and everywhere you go because they do have that margin and if they don't they don't get the distribution and they don't get the visibility and you know it all that it's it's a it's a whole ecosystem and a lot of that margins and like things like RAM it's like a sorter right like well yeah there's more you know an extra 32 gigs of storage back then when there were some 32 v8 64 gig phones that was ridiculous yeah yeah that's what they've learned that lesson people are willing to play willing to pay for that extra bit of room and that is just pure gravy did you know that Best Buy sells all their iPhones at like a markup over MSRP wait just okay they just get away with it no I have no idea if you wanted to buy an iPhone 10 for this sample price match know exactly then they have Apple stores inside they're like yeah and pop-ups right or whatever they call them right but if you want to buy an iPhone 10 which like everyone knows thousand dollars base model it's actually 1,100 bucks at Best Buy that's it that's the fine print fit that actually eleven hundred bucks if you want to get at Best Buy after tax no it's just a supply and demand okay we can we want neck because I bet they have to pay Apple close to whatever Apple's dealing with the chaos of you know early release and all of that we sound think that just having a supply right in the store would get them like the halo effect for accessories like like yeah they're making lauki later right yeah you right would say just the door and in the door on that day one bus talking your cell phone your battery cases your your Bluetooth headphones and making margin on that yeah it would be enough or or warranty plans right I guess it's Apple care still Sabol still takes that part but like but they they're like bold enough to try to make extra hundred bucks extra 10% off the top and I was okay with that too this is another Friday event this is that this is it I get no no it's next week what there's no pre-orders yes is this Friday yeah yeah I think your live showed you the pre-order you don't mean much as maybe should be a nine so the 10 comes out November 3rd which is next Friday I want to say somewhere in there yeah yeah it's end of next week nothing exists right now before the live show but on the 27th people reveal pre-order and and hope and yet when they get one so if you're in the market for iPhone 10 apparently the best way to pre-order is with the app that's been the case since the app the app will get you the website website crash all the all the carrier sites are gonna be terrible here's the weird thing they have this iPhone upgrade program that they announced years ago yeah at least one year ago if not you up yeah and the subscription plan for your phone it's basically a 0% financing you know thank were they they allow you to pay for your phone monthly over the course of two years and after a year they allow you to trade up to the newest phone and but you have to trade in your old phone right they've allowed those people who are already in the program to prequalify for the for the upgrade but you can't prequalify if you're not a member which is interesting I certainly could they could run the credit check because the whole concern is will you be able to check out fast enough at midnight on Thursday night sure and so people would like to qualify for this program but you can't so the only way like and I don't know why you'd enter this program now unless you're - like wait months for your phone you know so even if you're on the program and if you're on the program you're good you're good but you're good better you may not get it next week well no you cuz you can prequalify this week if you're in the program you can prequel that like everyone else you still need but you can check out your your your two steps which is week once like worth of getting a coupie yeah well with only 20 million or whatever it is provided like three million we don't know what the numbers are some analysts thinks that they don't they won't be easy to get until April of next year April April next year almost like new phone yeah and which is I'm shocked that Tim Cook and and their head of retail Angela or her they did interview with BuzzFeed then like they were frank about the fact that if you they're gonna have some in stores on the third but yep get there early they say with a smile they want lines yeah they want lines of disappointed people that's gonna be is that gonna raise their stock price or lower their stock price dude like doesn't that say that's they have supply problems they do net stupid good demand problem they do theirs right the happy the happy medium would be a ton of people waiting in line outside but everyone's satisfied right dude you're not even mentioning the worst-case scenario which is what if the phone is a problem doesn't say if it has a has some bug or it's a flop like yeah what if what if people actually find a way around face ID or what if it what if it doesn't work right use out yet exactly everything well what if the screens aren't working right like this whole new OLED for Apple there's a lot of new territory here and like they can only afford to charge those margins you were talking about if they have a killer product yeah right and there's even a rumor now which Apple has come out against that in order to help with the supply they are weakening we face ID sensor like going with a cheaper sensor or taking mmm like time will tell I don't think they would do that I don't think that this is this is a I mean you have to almost treat this as a first release product like this is first gen or from gen because it is it's such a departure and it's the first time they've done two major you know releases in one year like this is this is new territory it's completely new in terms of like the reviews of the iPhone 8 were we're good I think people who never said fine but that's fine and it's a I'm sure it's a perfectly good phone and it's more expensive it seven it was last year they raise it by like 50 bucks or something for the what's the big new feature it is just charging Wow it's faster it's faster it's got a new processor that's I mean really that's what it boils down to yeah let's let's rephrase that it doesn't have a new processor it runs the new software right just as fast as your phone last year ran last year's new software yes so it's better compatible with the newest version of iOS but yes the 10 is something completely different and I've no idea how the naming scheme is gonna work on forgiving any bets you may like well 10.1 yeah I don't think they're gonna save that going to 11 joke because that is something Apple will total it's a dad joke Apple will make that will be 10 years from now that will be not 10 that will be years from now I think I've ever know 10.1 10.2 really you don't think so I don't know let's start naming them after mountains I could totally see them just calling it iPhone from now on and coming up we'll head so there will be no iPhone 9 and almost confusing I think it's gonna be a Yosemite phone or though or they'll come up with some other landmark to know islands or so what does it become next year like what will what will follow ain't gonna fade out I think I think they're gonna go to a new platform I think it's almost like a you think the 10 will be but I don't think the reason I don't think so is if you look at the lineup now they need something on the entry level on the low end they still saw the 5 se yeah they still sell a form factor that no like that apps have to support it's really the perfect form factor that's what I had before my 8 and they're not an se but yeah it was it's it's actually it for kids like that's what my daughter has she's 12 that's that's her phone how does it the newest iOS and we're not messy its app developers or even internally Apple they all must have the se oh yeah I guess the six because they still sell the six right the success no what is it no success seven eight yes yeah that must be their baseline like the worst of us be compatible that's what I'm running I would hardly call it compatible you heard a car it's got a phone anybody would be proud to show off you'd never show the way that iOS performs on it yeah it would just fine last year yeah year and half ago with with ten with ten it was perfectly fine and yet new OS you to get that new command center you gotta make your phone a little slower all the animations you just add animations in the people complain about the marketing for the Apple tenth of the f110 how they're big ads or it's all screen mmm that's that's they're bad right yeah all screen and yet there's a row that they show right back bar is the back bar that is not there if they can't win they can't wait because there's no there is what's the marketing well the good thing is they're not first to market with that either like you I'm looking at a phone here that's all screen and then this one this one has a notch and has chin but it's pretty great it's chann terms of how much green it is it's pretty screen II yes you define it what would you call something like this it's edge to edge yeah you can't you can't say because there's no chance Samsung has the edge is a brand oh right the Samsung Galaxy edge so this is why we're not in marketing right it's a they've they've cut no corners no wait they've cut all the corners the phone does nothing but cut corners that's a good tagline we we've cut all the corners on our phone only curves curves that corner it's just a sphere pretty soon yeah no no yeah anyway I'm gonna we're gonna follow the iPhone 10 launched with great interest in curiosity now are you gonna get an iPhone den um it's not out of the question we'll see we'll see what what it looks like at 12 a.m. on the 27 if it's if it's a wait till April no way I'm gonna put money down now connected to commit something to wait till April I've been seriously thinking about trying to downgrade to iOS 10 and see what still works yeah yeah I don't know how possible that is I think it's totally possible rather there's a little I read something about it's not signed anymore and so the trick might be getting around them do illegal things I don't want to see I don't want to bother with jailbreaking it so I don't know we'll see the problem I have with the 10 it's it is super new and shiny and there's a reasonable chance I will want one and maybe even get one is you can see all the ways as a first gen product it can be improved that they can they can put some new feature already already easy right it's and I might be talking about reducing the knotch I completely understand what they're talking about and you know but all the ways in terms of like putting back touch ID you know putting it in the back somewhere right there all the rumors about him not finding a fingerprint sensor yeah or improving the software or or you know the or improving the screen like the thing I wanted that it's not there is I wanted a 120 Hertz screen like features that you already see on their other product lines right the iPad pro has that 120 and 120 Hertz screen that people say well it's amazing let you use it right now you can't you once you scroll with that you can't go back to an older iPad and yes it cost a lot of money but this one also cost a lot of money and I know the battery life considerations here but they're so sweet they own the hardware they own the software I would love to see that yeah me too on a phone on that phone is that gonna make you buy 10.1 the phone next year this phone next year or whatever it is I mean that's that's Apple strategy oh I'm a bit 10 because they actually need a full year to get it in stock so it can just catch up next year they can launch the 9 they'll finally have the 10 available like for anybody this is boggles my mind marketing classes must be talking about this this might go down is as you know a history and bad marketing it just seems weird this is one of the most recognizable brands on the planet names on the planet mmm right so much that influenced the naming scheme for most of their other product lines product categories and yet they're creating confusion when but this is needed to be but case I mean that's why they went to I pad it wasn't you know there was and it had Pro what I got iPad pro so you're really going longer a numbering scheme but I said iPhone pro my those are two cat me and there if what is actually happening here is to put their price segment in there the product line right there's it's not linear it's two things you want the entry level or you want the high end you want the one that everyone gets good there are some other features but you want the one that everyone can get or you want the one that only the fancy people get and then you can call it you know iPhone iPhone Pro alright I think I think we've we've we've excited this one yeah yeah we have how about a simpler naming scheme how about how about the Sony Alpha a 7r3 with one three Roman numeral and not the number three but what does this mean this this new camera new camera new as a whole a seven line or just the arm it's the the first in the it's just the arm okay so but it's a continuation of the a7 lines so the high-end camera if all Sony cameras and they've been doing really well they were formerly well is at the a nine most earlier this year a very expensive but basically they're a competitor to the Canon like the 1d series a sports photography incredible frame rates the a7 series was very populous basically they're equivalent to the 5d line that the prosumer high-end prosumer full-frame camera and the third version a seven r3 is finally announced people are waiting for this for a long time I think because of some of the flooding or earthquakes in Southeast Asia some of their sensor manufacturing facilities had been put on hold and so this was delayed this announcement but from all reports based on the specs this is a worthy successor so the a7 are too cool so the a7 to brought a motion stabilization yes no how's that okay so what is the three bring the three well it's for like more digit I believe it's 40 it's more megapixels and higher frame rate which are like big things like stabilization I don't think it's like a paradigm shift in terms of the stabilization stuff but it's 42 megapixel at 10 frames per second with full auto focus Oh temp 10 frames of photos 10 frames seconds per photo Wow yeah okay and then how long so that brings on it yes the buffering size plus the memory card right Nick you know all that say don't take what you're shooting like us your settings right yeah yeah right if you're in raw but it's so this is ten frames of raw yeah and sort of talking about you know 50 Meg's per image or more you're you're eating like a huge like you're needing know one of those one 140 megabytes per second memory cards right right and of course I'll do so with the with the an NF dual memory card function so my doing a swap seconds back yeah back and forth so what is it 28 raw photos in 2.8 seconds so it's 10 frames per second for 2.8 seconds okay what are you doing sports photography or V action photography you only need two seconds where it so seconds that's great I mean we want to impress point though that they're shooting like 24 is that magic number isn't it Wow 24 FPS raw continuous at 40 mega pixels at 40 mega pick let's let's let's say let's say reduce down to like even do you need megapix you don't handle you don't need 40 megapixels there for video for continuous shooting yeah I mean then it's a camera that it's then that's a cinema camera then that's basically like like motion JPEG set motion raw yeah it's it's your red camera I mean that's this is the this is the spec for your you know what eventually we're all yeah quite there yet but it's like when people I think for cameras over the past 10 years people are definitely more educated about sensors right like 10 years ago when point-and-shoots were we're still King no one like consumers pro suited for that professionals knew but consumers didn't care about sensor size now we hear about sensor size here about like a not only bigger sensor of their quality of sense we hear about those in Apple keynotes in Samsung keynotes and it's no surprise that people understand bigger sensor more light better depth of field better but don't think about the even on smell smartphone side the processing sure I think Apple starting to push on that marketing talking about a lot of that post processing software features yeah and it happens in real time because we're getting to the point now I mean it used to be a number and it's like oh well my one pit megapixel cameras better than my you know half megapixel camera yeah horrifying right right before 30 megapixel better than 10 megapixel and then you talk about okay one inch sensor better than you know three-quarter inch again this is all marketing anyways because it's also how you use those megapixels I mean that's we're actually the biggest thing I mean you look at the cameras that are on you know the Mars rovers and though these tiny little cameras but they're producing these amazing images because they're doing scans or they're doing post-processing or they're doing all these things and yeah that the magic is we're doing the point now where there's diminishing returns in hardware it's all about the software it's all about the facts yeah like you get like diminishing returns physically because you can't put large like aps-c you went to full-frame you're not gonna put much large on a full frame sensor noise designing I mean yes there there are the the what do you call them large larger than full-frame the medium medium format medium format digital cameras out there but that's not gonna hit consumers cuz lenses are gonna be different right you need the whole ecosystem changes with that creaking no but on the software side holds I mean on the computational side whole separate track faster processors soakin gets better much happen to Moore's Law storage right every all these things move in parallel and then how much about you see in real time too right right because if they're doing post processing and a lot of cameras and people don't even think about how much post processing is or processing is happening in real time to show you what's on the viewfinder right cuz you want to give the viewfinder image like if you're saving JPEGs on your cell phone there is processing happening it dad's you're not well SP up at some point we're just gonna be running Lightroom on our camera like I mean that's really what's coming down too we're getting enough compute power in the size I mean in real time in real time right in in the life you know yeah exactly right not just for a saved image but in in the in a 30 FPS or you know and then you want that's increase right you want a viewfinder run a 90 FPS because you want it super smooth well and I want a higher resolution viewfinder right yeah I know yeah yeah camera stuff is fascinating I love this stuff anyway I'm a seven are three three thousand bucks right $3,200 its body only and it's a same price as they seminar to when that first came out so really isn't the the high-end prosumer market if I didn't buy the 5d last year this is one I would probably go for yeah Amazon well there's another Amazon store we're going to talk about there was yeah oh you know speaking of how technology has changed over the past ten years into camera technology later Segway no I'm gonna force it in oh man the Kindles ten years old uh happy birds any of you so own actual physical Kindle my daughter does she's is it on a daily basis do you also did she have a tablet as well or is the Kindle for tablet it's kind of for tablet yeah even I cannot fire talk about like the actual I think yeah I think it's a black and white Wow battery lasts forever yeah yeah yeah that's that's amazing cuz when we talk about like the world changed when you know iPhone came out and smartphones were change Kindles kind of changed the world to change the publishing industry but also in that ten-year time we saw the whole the whole cycle like their commodity product super chief we used to be like let's wait till the Kindles 100 bucks ask me a magic mark and now you don't even think about like no one cares about the new Kindle releases the new hardware releases yeah they're gonna happen better but it's such a commodity product which is like the goal was the goal its items like replaces a book absolutely you don't even think about it replacing like a buying I mean people love holding physical books but the e-book is a completely normal way to read a book and the the Kindle itself change the publishing industry so much that once tablets and phones became ubiquitous and got better it obsolete came obsolete like there's still a purpose for it but people who have phones can read these books on their phones my wife does and it surprises me but she reads entire books on her phone iPad it's I mean if you have a excel phone maybe but like I mean if you've got I used to read on the iPhone 5 the full book that would hurt yeah like that is a bright screen the nice thing about the Kindles was it was a yeah it's it's not it's not that your eyes I mean and and then it's also just clarity I mean just the resolution which has gotten better yeah over time yeah I mean they specifically did not design those to be high refresh rate play animations oh is the doesn't let you do that like you have to erase the screen right before you draw the next picture so it there are some it's like a fast yeah there are some like top LCDs similar technologies that don't have the backlight that can do the animations yeah but I mean I have no interest in buying a Kindle Kindle no no not anymore right like even the Kindle brand Amazon has taken all the goodwill and kind of put it into their tablets yes there ain't no fire yeah right and those are commodity products to super achieving great for kids right yeah so I mean salute to the Kindle cuz that weird form-factor white framed ebook with with the keyboard on the bottom and all those weird features like no off button for a little while right right that lasts forever and and with whisper sync like audio dictation like all those weird experiments and all made publishing industry the way it is and I think like audiobooks would not be the way audiobooks are without the Kindle and and then and you think it change audiobooks I think that was personal hearing the book what the Kindle I think train I mean it changed people it trained people to think of book as more than just one type of interface and audiobooks I think obviously benefited from your bandwidth right bandwidth in the store absolutely and and and and the audible the system of subscription-based system because those are very expensive reduce but the cost being 15 bucks a month for a book as opposed to thirty forty dollars a book right ants they previously were or CDs right buying the CDs did you guys ever do that oh I remember getting the big stacks of cassette tapes I think I said I think I probably had the first release of Lord of the Rings on cassette coming like this what's that oh it was this box I remember - she was floating around in my trunk for yata bridge yeah not a bridge like it was making the most sense for all for audio this one this was mini car trips of liking a long drives I listened to so I definitely grew up with them because you have to rewind yeah yeah yeah and reward if you finished it both sides you're back in the because I guess there's two sides you're right okay so you can use your side that's right I guess we forgot that tapes VHS CDs you Katherine why that CD good there were multiple like binders oh yeah of CDs for a book and I got this her weird collectors items artifacts of history file I love this you have swapping it like swapping the swapping the CD yeah find the CD and what was it what was all you what was the book you remember listening to on CD I remember listening to Stephen King's the mist on tape like that was it was really trippy because it had this they did a full performance of it with this I binaural sound so that they had all this stuff that's happening around your car you could hear I headphone to go ahead yeah actually we I just realized because we go to the library and my daughter gets Harry Potter see you know the the books on books on tape on CD we actually have them in our car right now like this moment so if that's a good way to for Library System's oh yeah absolutely Joe don't you actually can also do digital download right my brains are starting to do that yeah and it I think it's a it's like this get like 20 life hack but like people should get the VIPRE cards and local the library get me access to so many things people just don't do it yeah library tool lending and now all kinds of good stuff library ABI are those in many libraries 3d printing yeah I didn't know that go back at Larry's your trip to library so if you purchase one of these new Amazon Kindle or an Amazon Kindle today which you still can yes and you were home yes what would happen my delivery guy just throws it over the hey it's a high gate - is that really impressed that's a good setup actually because no it's not good for your package but you get your package and it's probably not gonna be stolen social engineer right you leave the door half open oh yeah and then you the only the UPS or the FedEx oh the Amazon person knows that they can pull it and then they're the the unspoken contract is they closed the gate fully do they even instructions for that now the instructions tell the hoodlums that you won you're expecting a package they know your target that day yeah into they read the instructions and they all get in just as well well there's a new method okay tell me about this new method Amazon key mmm sounds I sounds good I it doesn't at the service so what happens is if you own an Amazon branded security camera in you know connect cloud connected security camera it's inside your house and you own one of the smart locks that is Wi-Fi enabled so these are products they don't they make the smart lock they don't but they do make the camp they make the camera so there's like their nest yeah yeah yeah so if you have that home I don't know how many of those homes there are but if you have that home you can sign up for a service so that when your Kindle arrives and it's delivered by Amazon not at presumably UPS or FedEx but I mean that is it ever Amazon Amazon it is for me oh really when they arrive they can swipe a little tool on their phone and they can unlock your front door yeah walk into your house yeah and leave the package and leave presumably locking it behind them now I'm not sure how I feel about this because market number one I'm obsessive about getting my packages alright I know when they're coming and I want to receive them and if I'm not home I legitimately get stressed out about it because I like my stuff so I like that I can get packages the problem is my experience with Amazon delivery people has not been the best like they are not the most professional livery I didn't realize this was actual Amazon I thought it was like my UPS guy was also would you trust UPS my UPS yes he's awesome I love my UPS guy I treat him so well I get he has my my garage code oh wow so I absolutely with connect on the I've cited him in to play pinball oh okay but this is so when you want your packages you treat your delivery guys yeah this is Amazon taking over deliveries so like if your subscribe to service and a package they won't let you PS deliver that package it has to be through their current service always it craps you you never know how does the key work if it's on the UPS trialing it does I think it's only if it's Amazon delivery so it's a weird inconsistent service so you don't there's no guarantee for delivery then exactly that's it and we're still letting people I mean are you opting into only Amazon couriers or or is it a checkout option I need this package I'm not I know I'm not gonna be home yeah right initial iPhone 10 ensure that it's Amazon courage certainly Prime now would be Amazon courier right oh for prime now prime now a lot of those are contractors not full-time employees or like uber that's what I'm saying man left all their delivery people are like that right ye I'm not the biggest fan of this you get people following them who you know not only are they gonna leave a package they're actually gonna open your door you know Mabel tale L people tale FedEx absolutely and then steal packages based on that dude you don't know about this I see a major problem what yeah people follow the trucks and then they you know hop out and they grab this time and anytime there's a lot of presents that's fun yes yeah yes Wow yeah we need more of these security cameras I'm just not sure they should be letting people in do you think this is a ploy to sell more Amazon shows because you use the show with the security camera too so you're at the office you have a show and then you can in it once the camera turns on it pops up on your on your display I think we're just gonna start designing our homes differently soon so there's gonna be better package delivery because we're getting so many more the whole idea of a mailbox means to be a mail Walker a lot of something yes the area in between your front gate and your doors something something that's secure like yours yeah right or-or-or awesome on the ground right it's it's it's the the bomb shelter I mean it might also be the the drone landing pad who knows like I mean all these things like we are shifting to a delivered economy yeah you know so maybe the infrastructure has to change or you can sacrifice the little bit of convenience of having it in your house and in your door and make use of the lockers that are like right around the corner like the lock in an urban yes yes but it's less of a problem with these are only problems in urban areas where there's tons of doors no no I think that's actually some of it some of the like especially the security problems are actually in the more suburban and rural areas because there's big distances so when you see that UPS truck driving down the road you know you know those your there's a target yeah absolutely Wow Wow so what is this a $250 bundle that includes the lock the camera and installation right yes okay you got a we do more because this is just announced this morning so the in-home delivery is an option every time you order from Amazon so exactly as we thought it would be a menu option and no additional charge and the in-home delivery only available on specific items so 10 million items again make some sense because it can't be something too big and bulky they're freaks and Families out it's only available in about 37 cities right now who will be the one to test Amazon book I vote Jeremy if you if you are home like if somebody's home that didn't know the package is coming yeah the hell out of them I I think we should one so I think the camera system right that's why if you're home and you have the the echo show at home yeah like now you have zero interaction with your delivery person you're at home making food in the kitchen your Amazon Show pops up with the camera oh my back doors open okay they drop the package thank you and then they close door that's it I think we should go we run the front door that's the commercial what you don't see in the commercial is the time they forget to lock it behind them or there thank you left the package and then the amazon press is standing right behind him with a knife right it's the delivery came from within the house I think we should we should chip in and get Amazon home delivery from Mario Odyssey for Jeremy so he can know I get it as a gift yeah and the livery guy will hand it to him and you have experienced the whole thing we're joking about this but this actually is a perfect surface for the office for our office here because we have all we have that we have is yeah that would work and and we a lot of deliveries and we like our delivery people we'd like saying hi to our UPS driver and our UV SBS delivery person mmhmm yeah anyway another event you know next week is Blizzcon lost so many events going on we have our live show st. Pierre Science Festival there's also four people last week in Las Vegas Adobe MAX don't be Mac's annual I've never been I've always been curious about it but people use Adobe's software suite always kind of like get a little nervous around open axes what are they gonna change how my life exactly exactly what incompatibilities when they announce once in the cloud now and yeah and last week we talked about a Lightroom changed through the now it's no longer by by as a separate package and Lightroom as a service now which oh not that great but they also unveil some like some prototype features I think this is probably the most exciting part of Adobe MAX well they like some experiments and I'm a sci-fi yeah last year they did it the audio writing right where you can put somebody else's voice on this video exactly Yeah right and and replace words and make audio editing perfectly seamless it's not out yet but this year they announced a a new video editing tool or feature and an exact you remember this what's the what's big that's a sidewinder so yeah Sidewinder it's a again they kind of just say it's a little you know sort of pet project or something they're trying out they don't don't don't make any claims it will make it into any product but there's kind of this proliferation of 3d cameras and stereo cameras that people are capturing you know you know stereo VR but it's it has kind of a flat feel to it if you've ever looked at VR that's just a you know video it's it's sort of like just projected on a round sphere around you and it doesn't happen you can't move your head you basically have three degree of freedom you know you can tilt your head but if you slide it side to side it you just it just kind of lose it breaks the whole yeah the world goes with you the road goes with you so the the process or service that this this project is is demonstrating is basically taking stereo video and projecting it we're actually creating a depth map first so uh yeah that's what I want so this is that with just two cameras okay so so they use they use two camera this is stereo captured at least that was a demo so they they do correlation between the two frames to find out you know what pixels have moved how far so they can actually get a depth map now that's pretty much off the shelf right then they project that video onto that depth map and do some there's some definitely some secret sauce in the back that sort of stretches the video just right now it did look a little clunky in there in there demo where they sort of had the edges where there wasn't data that was recorded so like if you move far enough you actually don't see certain parts of the image so they kind of just stretch the the video around it but in fact that you get some you know lateral translation as you move your head in the VR image is actually really really powerful I've always said I don't need much I just want to move this much yeah and for seated situations like that would make it so much more real and they showed a you know a couple different demos one was a Christmas tree and again if you move very far it kind of breaks but if if you really only keep it a couple inches I feel like that would just add so much to - to VR video and the point is that this can be mapped on a 360 when you think of depth maps it's it's well anything well anything is stereo it has to be stuffed up stereo so you have to have stereo 360 but it wouldn't work in 360 if it was a stereo 360 set up yet exactly yeah so it's pretty cool it's it's a neat thing I mean it from that from the outlook you can go oh okay that just looks like more but again you're not experiencing it just like all the other comfort it's about just total but you're gonna want more yeah once you have that you're gonna want to reach out you're gonna want to walk then you realize you can't do that either yeah I mean I know the limit of video but yeah you know but you could design minute again we're still dealing with you know certain types of cameras that have certain type of spatial distance you know I mean people are coming out with bigger and better you know camera rigs for capturing more and more data yes I understand and if you combine that with like a street view style yeah from node to node oh yeah then you're really moving around the world you had missed the original missed game yeah you know this sort of you know video that's that's pretty compelling I could definitely see some some good stuff this is more than a few inches of lateral movement - they're definitely moving but I think they're actually moving too far I wish they would have I like they're showing the extremity I think I like seeing the I see where it fails yeah yeah but but I think from from just the casual you know fewer they're like well why does it do this we're think that actually saw some comments on some of the poster like well that looks like junk because look at what it does and it's like no no no great for six inches and that's really what you mean filthy casuals yeah yeah remember Minority Report and when Tom Cruise is viewing that old like projected oh yeah video it's like family exactly thing yeah like they it was a 2d video superimposed over some type of depth map of course they're using fancy science fiction hologram systems but that's exactly like the idea that you could hopefully take old stereo video whether it's 360 or steer reveal right like a date library content stereo video and map it over a depth map yes don't forget we're now create more immersive viewing experience stuff they also talked about some of these other other technologies and I actually put that in the notes but I thought some of them with other ones were kind of fascinating that I think they could kind of merge with this there's there's doing sort of the contents of where they've always had connection say always but it's in like five years they've had context-aware fill or images or images right so they're starting to play with that in video because they process it because the processing but now you could imagine doing context-aware fill in the VR areas that don't actually have the content visible so you could actually start doing that also yeah they're combining the projecting to stereo and a stereo image on a depth map and then on the sides where you have the gaps the gray area film yeah fill that with it actually you know it's like oh I can identify that as a chair I know what chairs look like cuz I got this massive you know database of chair data but that's not even need to be real-time then because we're talking about oh yeah yeah well it does have to be on done well this is this is pretty processed so this this you could go through and you could actually you know process all your video again it's it's it's capturing those real events the hard part is the capture like I had I can spend all day long processing it and I can use my deep deep learning you know my neural nets to go through and say oh okay well there's a half of a chair missing if I know what a chair looks like I can just substitute in a you know the side view of a chair you think about how the content of where would work it have to be specifically designing for filling the blanks of 3d3 says it wouldn't be you think it's a texture map yeah like it's not just constant you can't content-aware fill texture map and have it look good in 3d well but that's in some ways that's what they're doing they are just doing texture maps that's what this is the texture map you're turning it to zero image in a texture map but you can't still that texture map in Photoshop if I if I through a texture map and Photoshop and had right like area and that content where fill it would not it would more logically work yeah there's still some work to do it's been the bottom line right that's where we're headed we're headed to the point where we can capture 90% of a room with a standard not standard but a you know a 3d type camera 3d rig you know it's impossible to get all the data and all the room because of occlusion of all these other problems right but if we have enough smart to fill that in yeah it's good enough that's good enough air could be for it to be convincing and then of course we all want it in real time of course when I trio we didn't have the dinosaur DNA we just used frog heartful you know something stretching warping the world one last story of found this kind of interesting low-tech way to to warp the world is just with the delusions and apparently some places rather come around the world including Iceland have started painting crosswalks and using optical illusions perspective illusions anamorphic illusions I guess these are what they are to make the crosswalks and other objects looks like they're floating on top of the road and this is the idea is to to give distracted drivers to distract them more yeah that's the problem right you think you think you would distract normal drivers more than it would take distracted drivers out of action like the subconscious brain because it only works in like the anamorphic style illusions only work with small viewing area well that's the thing like I I mean what you want so when I go up to a crosswalk that is hard to see you know especially these days they're now augmenting them with lights and they're sort of you know they're making them really visible yeah I don't know that you're gonna see this from any further away then you know sort of twenty feet and at that point you're already going too fast you're gonna run somebody over or you know it's a funny it's a funny thing like it almost seems like it's just a distraction and what's at the wrong time like I don't want to distract them it's too late mmm but it's cool it looks cool yeah it brings attention to it I wouldn't drive wrong really it is one of those things that you the idea may sound great on paper yeah unless you put it into action there's so many of these I think it's more of an hour project yeah it definitely is an art project I want to see it pop up in in certain parts of the states I want to see I want to see what the implications are and then how people respond do these perspective paintings even look right in stereo because they look great as a photo right that's always the challenge yeah yeah I mean again only a limited few views like a crosswalk is a is a wide area well only in the middle lane yeah and and well if you have enough distance everything looks 2d so that's also one of the tricks with some of these illusions if you're far enough away but if you get close yeah your cuz you have two eyes while most people do it breaks it and also because of the stretching like it's it's weird you're trying it's not like it suddenly appears it looks like a child in the middle of the street you're so stretch objects objects trick tops okay I guess it looks like a child like your brain it's it's not gonna shop your brain in the same way because it's already slowly slowly acclimating to something weird in a street might as well just put a light there are some rumbles ya know wants to break their tires the octave this hall up in the Seattle office has that has a perspective thing in the painting that has a perspective painting in the hallway where it says oculus we get that it goes across the walls and then across the back wall across the other wall all right that does it for our technology news segment before we continue on I want to thank the other sponsor of this week's episode and that's a RoboForm how you still use the same password for everything I hope not a lot of you because we're using password is the easiest way to have your data and identity stolen and letting browsers automatically save your login information isn't secure enough in today's day and age and thankfully there are more ways in more secure ways more convenient solutions than doing that so RoboForm actually stores and generates strong unique passwords right in your browser or mobile device all you need to remember is one RoboForm master password pretty easy and with RoboForm you always have the right password one click away with a secure online vault and they'll even auto fill out long checkout forms it's a password manager that's available for individuals families and businesses and supports all major desktop and mobile platforms so just go to RoboForm dot-com and you can download today on the App Store or on iOS or Android and for a limited time you get $10 off your Robo form everywhere a subscription when you use the promo code tests just TST you can simplify and secure your online journey today with RoboForm password manager and thank them for supporting of this week's episode the VR minute virtual reality this week we have to cut our virtual reality discussion short last week because we're running short on time and there was so much to talk about cuz we just come back from oculus connect for what did we leave out that we want to then we want to revisit Jeremy oh my gosh well we touched on the go which was the big news yes $200 headset yes we didn't touch on something that somebody brought up on Twitter which is that how great that'll be for education yeah I know that's a good point I think you know oculus has talked about the internal debates about whether a three degree of freedom headset would be poisoning the well right like whether that's a that ship has sailed but yeah I think there are so many people like you can step up it was nothing more kool-aid than what then poisoned yeah maybe I don't know I I saw I still run into it when I have you know friends and family come over and I've got my little oculus set up downstairs and you know I say oh hey do you want to go try this out they're like oh I've tried VR I'm like have you have you tried you know I don't know but I I know the thing that I tried and they're describing basically you know three you know 360 video and I'm like oh no no no I have Google that's it and so my phone in that thing before but that is the experience that I think most people have had and so it is poisoning the well I mean because they go oh yeah that kind of made me a little sick and you know wasn't that compelling so is it was it the fact that it was a phone experience with maybe not the best audio not the best frame rate not the best content Oh all the above was it the fundamental 3 3 degrees of freedom versus an interaction I think interaction is probably the biggest thing yeah right I mean you and you can get you can get some interaction with if you've got a you know gear VR with with some sort of input device but but even still it's just it's such a different thing I mean even when you know going from oculus with a Microsoft you know controller to you know control that was such a big leap yeah so yeah I think that I think that well has been poison I say that jokingly but I don't think it's we can recover from that it's just gonna take a little bit more time so but they're not investing in recovering from that I mean they are and making the rift cheaper and developing things like the cell crew's prototype but they're also talk about a mass-market product at $200 that is in that same category but B there is a freedom it's because their market that I think what they've learned is people aren't spending you know $800 on a headset that has to then have a you know thousand to two thousand dollar computer behind it that's really what it boils down to I mean that's just custom so and $200 all-in is even if what you're getting is not the best experience it's still something that's out there it's I think they also invested a lot of content yeah and and yeah they're they're building up a library I mean they put huge I mean we've all seen like they've they're huge amounts of investment in all of these content providers and they are building their content for kind of the lowest common denominator you know which is frustrating for you know those of us that have these kind of bigger rigs it's like oh we're getting kind of just this trickle of you know of content the frontier we want the frontier more and more and they're like mass-market and what they're doing about the thing that always surprises me is how much John Carmack is into things like 360 photos yeah I don't I don't get a 360 video as like I don't enjoy watching 360 video I mean III if it's well-designed they're interesting but like it's not something that I think about doing might go home I don't want more so that's that's I mean that's kind of the the benchmark for me it's like okay if I spend 10 minutes on something and then I take off my headset in 10 minutes am I gonna go I want some more of that and if it's 360 video or some of these other experiences that are just not well designed or make me a little bit sick I'm like no I've had my fill I'm all good you know a well-designed a novel thing like okay I've had that's it yeah but but then there's the Echo Arena experience or some of those sometimes like you're like oh my gosh that this really like I need some more of that I don't get that with those those sorts of experiences and that's the poison that is it do you think are you surprised Carmack isn't as invested in the mobile space as he is compared to the PC space I'm not because I think he finally fundamentally believes that there is the way to get to mass market adoption in six series is to start with three degrees of freedom and that the technical challenge is on the mobile space are more interesting probably to him I think that's actually it I think that's why he likes the mobile side not necessarily 360 video so much but he sees it as a optimization puzzle of how do I get that same coolness in limited hardware I mean that that is his like his roots but his roots were also pushing the frontier and giving the best in the highest NPC and delivering for people who had even back then you know with quake the $2,000 computers yeah but but I could run you know he wasn't doing jumping in the mobile games when he first went out oh no it was I wasn't even with John Romero is doing but he is doing they did doom RPG and he worked on that right right now and I completely agree there is a technical challenge there like based on his talk that we saw he was super excited about ways to optimize render a video sure for three simple right for a mobile and optimizing and you know whether it's streaming like I guess he did some of that with his tech engines like the the mega texture stuff yeah right it's just it's just super init super interesting I think he sees that there's a lot of talented people working in the space right now and so he he sees that that's where his his contributions yes contribution wants to he that's where he wants to make it I think like you said like he sees mobile as the future right and that's where he wants to spend his time in Zack to your point about you know what makes an experience like Echo Arena an interactive six degrees of freedom high-end experience at Greenham more appealing things you want to revisit over watching a 360 video I think the big one other big differentiating factors that is cross-compatible is just the social experience sure I think that once they once you get $200 headsets even with their three degrees of freedom headsets into let's say five million people's hands and some high number it's a short number on the way to a billion but it's it's a lot of more people than how do we yeah using on a regular basis and have social 360 easier to be there yep with other people that that gives the network effect they will take over I'm most intrigued by the go because it is a VR exclusive device it's not like cardboard or writer VR in that you have you have to launch something or insert something and then get into a certain mode it's drag-and-drop so your experience convenience ease-of-use yeah I mean I want to put that thing on and just I'll just be in VR instantaneously and I'll be able to launch things it'll be a VR device right we haven't seen that since like the the Nintendo thing Virtual Boy it's not was such a big hit it's also the same same argument for you know why we like to switch the echo the one thing you can throw in your bag take on a take on a trip fly to hotel and if you're disconnected you know from your family put that on and maybe you can do a 360 some type of I think is big yeah and that's really what it boils down to is it's it's a portable device and and also the price I think it really just comes down to price yeah and and you know their argument is more people will mean that we have more you know we have the ability and a market to to produce these bigger more exciting pieces of content as well as hardware I don't know back to the education thing though I think it could be phenomenal I mean I think that that was the the promise of cardboard but that was such a bad experience and then yeah that didn't end up being so cheap to $1.00 is expensive for like getting them in classrooms so like cardboard is still has the edge on like what you're leveraging a phone basically essentially a free adapter for the phone every family can you know can I don't know like oculus donated a headset to all the public libraries you know you know around the Bay Area I I could see them doing the same thing with the with the go to get it in schools I mean that's is they went a lot lock these kids in early all right Donald's for education though I think there's actually a bigger push for things like AR because there is that direct interaction with teachers and other students and things that were we don't have the technology yet in VR to have an AR you meeting right now is there right now holding the phone having a phone an answer system yeah so know that that seems to be a more approachable kind of educational realm is that that AR app you know that app well VR doesn't seem to be feeling a lot of pressure from AR right now no none at all at least in the consumer marketplace there's there's nothing out there but there's no y'all know that AR is where we all don't want to end up because VR is just a subset of AR you know with what this we walked out maybe soon we might have some AR competition maybe it's we have no products we haven't heard of any product announcements yet but more funding for for magic leap they just raised another half billion dollars that's nuts for with all the promise that they're gonna have this AR that's something something I hope it's good so I think that doubles their what they've raised no no it's I think it's as another 25% cuz I think they had I think they're now up to 2 billion oh my I don't know according to Wikipedia they have it has raised more than 540 million from Google Qualcomm andreessen horowitz so that like the original funders it's a lot okay yeah I mean it's it that they're valued at over you know many billions that's crazy without no product yeah no product it better I mean it must be a good demo people were smart people this blows my mind right like VCS who are willing to put their money in things they must have seen they might they must have some experience with what's out there yes and an understanding of the technology or advisers who understand this knowledge I've talked to people and they said it was cool that's I mean I've talked to people who have experienced it and they said that's it they're like I can't say anything else it was cool so it's win-win for us as consumers right if it ever comes out what is the options are when it comes out and it is cool yes that's that's great too it's completely like vapor we're not our money that we came into we had zero investment investment into the future all existing rich people their money that's their money right what we don't want is they invested so much that they for something bad to come out just to try to make some money back but I can't imagine an entire industry back but I can't imagine at this point they would just push something out the door the longer they wait the more competition there is yeah and the longer they wait the more POC invested they are and in trying to get something out to recoup something now that there's already set this mystique this buzz yeah like I do take your time get the funding do it right if your core technology is sound then what we're happy to wait because you know Apple isn't ready to jump in the game they're they're they're being smart and developing the the software infrastructure and getting developers to work at the existing pasture systems so they could have an understanding of the user interaction models and also maybe this stuff all gets imported to whatever system they they they make the future and and you know is there it's funny like the only other real competitor that I could think of is hololens to do this in a real AR and it's like yeah they released a product but i haven't heard any actually said no holland's - they said it's not that's be to be great for me to be you know what we're gonna step back we had a lead in it we have our inside out tracking let's not force something to the consumer that we think that isn't I mean that is smart I think this is really smart of them yeah I'll have to try to push some remark it just to be first right like something good not something first I mean they were first they were yeah yeah no it's just interesting if they pulled back and and I'm wondering what that's what what that means for something like magically like the fact that maybe it isn't as compelling as you know I think it's a really hard problem and everyone's realizing that how how hard how expensive a problem it is they pulled back but they also just launched five headsets in a VR yeah but they call it hololens technology i think they have their tracking technology in their friends yeah yeah yeah that's yeah which is good it's great I'm glad that the flick that took Suresh part of it yep thing that work the best because we'd use you know meta and and their slam system and hollands I thought was rock-solid it was not yeah absolutely a couple other bits in VR we did we talked about TB cast TB cast for for oculus so they announced when we were four that they are gonna support the rift this is the wireless system Trentham system accessory $250 that's in value I don't know I really hope it's not but if you're in the market where you're already have two headsets yeah like they want milk as much man from you as possible here's my big problem with add-ons and unfortunately oculus really didn't plan for this the cables the big heavy cable that goes from your head all the way back to your computer that's like 15 feet long if I'm doing TP cast where's that cable gonna go when is it gonna bundle up on the back of my head so like I have oh I think they come with new Able's but i can't replace it's hard it's the Occulus ones an oculist sorry that's why I'm saying octopus didn't plan for this accessory and it is you're gonna be there just the added weight of having to carry that whole cable around I was actually playing with that the other day I'm like wait a minute this is on your waist yeah it's gonna be a fashion accessory it's about a Kickstarter a clip that will clip it belt buckle there you go right oculus a big ol belt buckle they can work yeah I like it I mean it's good its products like this that mean the rift to will not be wireless you know if we can upgrade to wireless it means the rift - I hope the resin have a small cable no I'm asking for I don't think that's the biggest deal oh yeah you might bundle it up a little lasso on your belt yeah I like I mean what are the pros and cons from a product design prototyping standpoint sach you think of having is there any real pro to having it be a locked-in cable I thought the headset part ah just one less connector but there's lots of ways around that I mean like work good with connectors now HDMI seems pretty good I mean you'd need to have some other you know secondary locking system cuz again that moves around a whole bunch because a single cable it's a single cable aside but guys yeah ya know I mean and there's lots of ways of doing that you can overmolded multi connector cable like you also kinds of different things but yeah I mean I think the pros of being Wireless far outweigh any you know hassle to have a nice big I think the biggest things would be battery life like so many portable electronics that's gonna be the thing and then just management and like is it is a removable battery and do I have to you know pause for you know six hours while the thing charges I mean that's that's really what it boils down to is that end user experience with it is that you know is that worth it yeah and then speaking of a Ark it again in Apple and they are so there's this interview I guess was this with the independent Tim Cook talked about a are kid quite a bit I didn't read this no sure this boiled again yeah we're not gonna talk about this design have you guys used Eric Erica on your on your phone just a couple demos yeah I just downloaded a cup when I got my 8 I'm like ooh let's try something you know the IKEA I happened a couple of doubles yeah oh no not the plus I just have just a standard size and it works well with a camera yeah works really I mean I was really impressed with just like the measuring stuff and the way that it's doing you know that's actually doing tracking there's a couple of demos where you can kind of turn on all the debug information where it's actually showing you the points that it's tracking I was just really fascinated with that and the fact they can do that with one cameras as well as they do I've only tried it on my success and it's been I've tried it and confined spaces that don't work as well it likes a bigger room I find so I'd be curious to see your phone see how it compares we can fire it up I mean in the interview basically he says AR is like multi-touch was for interaction like AR is going to change the way we interact it's in the next paradigm for human-computer interaction if we get a good interface for it I mean right now holding this phone up isn't a good touch so right for them right it's compelling like you talked about all the great things in all the magic that is in terms of like that the record Special Recognition the slam stuff and but the fact is right now we're still holding flat things up this is not what I was talking about Tim's talking about something they haven't announced yet are you sure about that yes he's selling the product today he's selling developers of making it's working in AR kit today he doesn't care hissing don't worry about it ar is gonna be great just wait that's so rust in the Tim Wow he knows there Arnie he knows how much money they have to spend on it yeah they have all them I made you have all well you gotta give it up for space pirate trainer been around for a while now finally hit 1.0 version 1.0 you've got a lot of new enemies in there if you haven't gone and played for a while it's worth visiting there's a mothership the shows like we're on level 15 quite difficult some brand new baddies some new power-ups it's a it's a solid game you know it never became like the something bigger than standing on the platform and shooting stuff but I still say it's a good intro game it's the Galaga of ER he thing ever got too complicated in terms of how many weapons cuz it's it's a good intro game but like it seems like all the advances they made were Decatur the people who had got good yeah we've gotten really good at space pirate trainer people got really you know it's you get as far as you can I don't know if it got to you know it certainly is a hard game eventually but anybody can play it for a few levels right it's the pac-man yeah Galaga or Galaga sorry testing this week hey what have you guys been testing you guys been testing anything lately anything new in your shops in your life iPhone eight house iPhone a iphone eight is I well again coming from a five it's awesome but then everybody that I talk to it's like oh it's the same as the six or the same as a seven so I don't there's no great like wow look at this kind of thing but it just works it just kind of worked well and again because it's you know the latest hardware with the latest software it's uh you know it's a match have you tried the wireless charging I don't have a wireless charger I don't have a Qi charger anywhere so I'll try that in my bolt and see if it works oh nice yeah let's try that we can do that you don't you have wireless charger in the bowl yeah built-in is it is it a Qi yes you standard one yeah uh-huh yeah is it on a horizontal plane it's not it's a little sleeve that you put the phone into it so the 10 would fit in it but yours above an eight should yeah why wouldn't the 10 fit in it it's bigger the 10 minutes between the regular and the plus weight the actual physical size I heard it took an almost exact same thing as what as this as a standard size it's like the success yeah really yeah I thought it's bigger I think it's thicker I don't think it's okay bigger I will do that research things to try I mean is there a is there a CAD model is there 3d printers that's it I played a bunch of VR games last night looking for something interesting I played the Talos principle VR which I never I never played the original game you know the standard mouse and keyboard but it's a Crytek game so I your car team so I was interested it's kind of good looking not as good as you expect from that good from those guys and it's just kind of met I was I'm looking for the next great my you are game I want the next you know amazing thing that I fall in love with I played X rebirth for a few minutes it seems like elite dangerous is more my speed iron wolf VR is kind of interesting it's a submarine game yeah multiplayer and that's that's a great idea you're surrounded by all these big tools and machinery that you can use and it feels immersive like you've the red the lights go red when you go underwater you can pull the periscope down and run around you can fire torpedos you have to avoid you have to you know be stealthy it's fun it's fun I like I haven't played that with somebody yet because of course there's nobody and the multiplayer servers right but uh play with you guys sometimes you want absolutely I always see your head pop up in my VR but you're never on it yeah I am that's weird I know that man well warden with the future oculus home kaliba leave a post-it note for aerospace sorry miss yeah yep how about 6:00 p.m. tomorrow of course I've been a laser cutting away on the clove Forge flow Forge the pro model it's doing a lot of long etches and long long and graves they just released some some new software updates on their their front end so yeah turns out you do have to reboot the printer or at least put it online so yeah you won't see these updates if you just go to the app unless you're your printer your has been turned off and on glowforge is has been turned on since it was released oh very good so most of them if you have a glow Forge and they are shipping them now at least the early backers I think they improve their raster settings so if your if you upload a bitmap now you have a difference I guess they're getting rid of like the previously the settings the presets were like like light raster light engrave or dark engrave now it's like which like the are you it's more context-sensitive are you rastering a is it a photo etching a photo and your bitmap photo or a bitmap a line can line drawing or graphic art and then their settings are catered than that so I did some testing between photos and line drawings and then doing some vector etch I love vector etching now you've used other laser cutters yes and I'm curious so there it seems to be this and what I've heard I have action I haven't used a glowforge but there seems to be this kind of obfuscation of kind of control and is is there a way to get in and be like I want to do it at 25% of speed in 25 so you should go in and and muck with it yeah so there presets anytime you set go to one of their presets you can then go see a manual control and I'll show you the corresponding manual cell presets which they encourage you actually write that down I encourage you write that down because there are presets may change like we may get rid of their photo their last their you know six months ago photo setting which you might have really liked right because they want to make things transparent and just work so you want to write those settings down and it's it's more than just like for laser cutters from what I understand like you have speed and power those are the two primary settings you also have pulses per inch I don't know if you have that control as well you have so they have a dpi yes okay so those were a raster it's gonna be those I don't think I don't think that's what that is and then there's also the density of how how far it moves in the y direction for each x pass so that's what yeah we're thinking about as that is per inch there their dpi is the equivalent to line - vertical line at y Y movement right is there a difference between the two laser technologies where one uses pulses and the other doesn't why would I yes so tube lasers or continuous and meta lasers are pulses right and so maybe the metal lasers there you have more control over they have the pulse that's right I haven't used to blazer in a laser cutter but they bump in sin red you know aluminum tube lasers yeah so we so you get like a dpi setting if you want and which works really well if you want like the gradient in graves right if you want to upload a depth map essentially and have really deep cuts you can do something has some fancy stuff with that and then there's also the way they process the you raster because there's a two settings it can be dots or a pattern they call it so this is a way they they cuz your image I could be upload you know ten megapixel image it's not gonna look like 10 megapixels right I need to do some processing on how how you turn a pixel into a series of dots really there used to be a program I'm sure they're still out there called the raster bader you know that would take a you know bit Matt bitmap image and then convert it into different kind of pre process or post process forms right wonder if it's similar to that yeah yeah it's gonna optimize it for what the laser is gonna do and so there are some things are gonna work better for the dot system and that that all is given to you can like to switch between those options sounds like a work in progress it totally is like there are things that I just really want I know it's in their pipeline like I want to bility this pause pause the laser cut pause a job right and do it over to our job and like I need to step away for to answer the door like you're technically here I don't want to leave the room like I watch the positive for half an hour present its I guess it's coming but I think it may have to do and again the club Ford's people please correct me for wrong but because of the cloud software right because a lot of stuff is setting these dropship Amazon key so that when their doors they can cut my laser cutting I just want to save manual settings that shouldn't be too much to ask yeah you can't save you can't make your own custom settings yet lots of asks but hey it's it's it's a version one product and and again these are all software things so that's the cool thing about that's where so think is this can all change some some basic design like also like Jeremy you know you can import a really great raster stuff rest room is your Trek and drop trike and drop a photo it's gonna it's gonna edge that photo in it's gonna write engrave that photo but I want to cut it out of my piece well you can't just draw a box or draw a circle I want like some very basic primitives yeah or cut lines yeah let me draw a box and say if you have a great web interface we draw boxes they cut that out right but then they're also basically making a cat or a 2d drawing package on top of that so that you can see why there's a lot of work about engineering get a lot of totally a lot of work I'm not asking for Tinkercad just asking it for a square or no ellipse there you go right and let it and let me stretch cut lines by two dimensions or something but the fact is you have a laser cutter at home I have one to my computer it's still amazing the fact that I have a 4k monitor with a laser cutter and a VR headset we live in Star Trek it in a 3d printer all in one room they can all be working at the same time that's my blowing yeah it is very cool so we'll be doing more testing with that yeah lots of people of great ideas like I think the trick I'm finding is try to make laser like try to get out of get out of your system the standard laser cut things right I'm getting all like the getting all the I get all aligned arc and all the the etching engraving photos like then start thinking of like what does it mean to do mixed-media what does it mean to use the laser cutter to and you know to cut felt or to cut foam yeah or to fabricate or fabric or or but different materials and combine it with what you can do with the 3d printer right if you design in your models like recesses to do in lays lays for these are cut pieces how do you start building with I mean there's yeah again you you kind of get any any tool I mean I collect tools and it's you know each one of those gives me more capabilities and it's it's yeah it's it's inspiring I look at all of these things is like okay now that I have one more bit of you know technology I can do even more stuff and like I said layering I think is really the key your wife Danica is a crafty maker yeah yeah showing an interest in there's some felt this weekend that's cool I recommend micro suede micro suede yeah so it's it's it's a synthetic suede like material but it has a really nice edge and it also edges really cool so you can match the micro suede it gives you a good contrast oh and then for being a fabric it works worked really nicely thank you buy it online you can very cool awesome pics of recognition sure anything else you guys want to talk about I'm testing I've been you know III my latest thing has been teaching I started teaching a class over the college over in Oakland and I've been testing all kinds of hardware to teach people how to build things and that's been a fun it's it's funny you kind of get out of the sort of Hobby world when you're doing things professionally and then everyone small you kind of peek over the fence and you go hey what's the latest in Arduino and what's the latest in sort of always a little you know project boards and what's out there and it's amazing I mean I just just in a year or two of not paying as close attention as I should you know there's there's all kinds of cool wearable devices and little boards that support all the latest chips you know when there's a new mp3 decoder or some new light sensor or some new it's like there's there's always this you know kind of new new crop of hardware that comes out so you know going through Sparkfun and ADA fruits website just kind of seen what's out there has been been a lot of fun and and I now have an excuse to sort of browse and say oh I should try these out so lots of lots of little bits of hardware been lots of fun something I couldn't find from either those guys was a galvanic skin response yeah measuring system yeah I found one that seed Oh a seed is great in China yeah I I bought a couple of those being super cheap like 30 bucks you gonna hook them up to your kids just find out if they're telling lies yes you can grill them oh okay well thank you so much Zack for coming by we're having me people find you online build cool stuff calm I don't do a lot on the social media as much I do have a Twitter account which i think is build cool builds builds stuff Zack build cool stuff sack I don't know I don't even see I don't even remember what it is if you need to get ahold of me build cool stuff calm there's lots of links on there to email all right thank you again we got to have you back and we'll get that full orange story I mean people love you having you on and instead of having you on I love being here and we love hearing about things you make and if you're in town in San Francisco this week the Saturday please come by and check us out we're at the Castro theatre at 7:00 p.m. tickets are as low as 15 bucks if you wanted to watch us do some stuff on save Adam has a really great talk but he's going to give a good presentation so hope to see you there tickets are at tested at 2017 eventbrite.com and until then we have an outro from then ill all right here we go there was nothing underneath her it was amazing I mean it was amazing I build stuff Zac there you go that's my Twitter\n"