Good Evening and Welcome to Tonight's Discussion on Apple's Compliance with the DMA, the Digital Markets Act, and the European Union.

I am here to learn a little bit about Apple's compliance with the DMA, the Digital Markets Act, and the European Union. Apple has just announced that they're going to have sweeping changes to the App Store to comply with this new legislation. And I will be talking about it with me to talk about it is Riley Testut. Hello.

Hello. Hi. I'm excited to be here and talk about all this. So last week was a big week. What happened? Really, like everything I've been wanting, more or less, for the past few years. Apple finally did it! They're announcing that third-party App Stores — I'm sorry, marketplaces — are coming to the iPhone only in the EU. So, yeah, they finally just announced what we've been waiting so long for them to reveal and specifically how they're going to comply with it.

I think we will see apps start to come out that just didn't exist before. And then I think that alone will make this whole thing worth it, just so we can start thinking about what we've missed out on. Because for so long, we couldn't even know what apps are possible because they'd just be rejected. So now if there's a cool app that exists only in the EU other countries around the world can be like, "Hey wait a minute this looks really interesting and I want to download it."

Note: The provided text does not provide enough information to create an article with multiple sections. It appears to be a single conversation between two people about Apple's compliance with the DMA and the European Union.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enGood evening. I am here to learn a little bit about Apple's compliance with the DMA,the Digital Markets Act, and the European Union. Apple has just announced that they're goingto have sweeping changes to the App Store to comply with this new legislation. And herewith me to talk about it, is Riley Testut. Hello.Hello. Hi. I'm excited to be here and talk about all this.So last week was a big week. What happened?Really, like everything I've been wanting, more or less, for the past few years. Applefinally did it! They're announcing that third-party App Stores — I'm sorry, marketplaces — are comingto the iPhone (only in the EU). So, yeah, they finally just announced what we've been waitingso long for them to reveal and specifically how they're going to comply with it.I think we will see apps start to come out that just didn't exist before. And then Ithink that alone will make this whole thing worth it, just so we can start thinking aboutwhat we've missed out on. Because for so long, we couldn't even know what apps are possiblebecause they'd just be rejected. So now if there's a cool app that exists only in theEU, other countries around the world can be like, \"Wait, we want that app.\" I see positivechange coming from this, but from brand new apps. I don't see much change to the existingApp Store. I'm just so excited. I couldn't be more happy just to finally see this allbecome reality because, yeah, it's just something I've really been dreaming about since launchingAltStore and since working on Delta before that, just to finally have a way to get itout there, it makes me happy. Even though I know there's a lot of restrictions, I knowit's not perfect, but I am very happy that I will finally be able to just get my appout there for the first time. Yeah, it was very emotional that day. Even reading the announcementI was like, tearing up. Thank you, EU, and thank you, Apple, both of you.So I've seen a lot of reactions that are basically, \"I live in the United States. Why should Icare?\" So my next question is, \"I live in the United States. Why should I care?\"Yeah, I live in the United States too. Why should I care? I think this is going to becoming to the United States at some point sooner rather than later. We're hearing thatthe government's already investigating or about to investigate Apple even more for theirApp Store policies. So I just view it as a matter of time. We'll see. Maybe the UnitedStates will make some changes to what Apple's proposed here, but as a whole, I think we'rejust going to be seeing this soon in the United States within the next year or two.I don't think we were entirely expecting just how Apple decided to implement it. Can youwalk us through how app marketplaces work? So it looks like every app is still goingto have to go through some storefront. So you can go through the App Store as always, ornow you can choose to distribute your app through an alternative app marketplace. Appleis not going the ‘downloading app from the website’ route, ‘install anything you want,’which I kind of expected based on recent things. This still allows Apple to basically receiveall apps that are going through a system. Apple can notarize all the apps and checkfor security stuff and make sure there's nothing awful in these apps. And then developers canchoose to distribute the app to another app marketplace like AltStore, what I'm workingon, or Epic Games has announced their storefront. We're going to see more app stores appearand we'll see what apps start appearing in those storefronts.And also in another way, thank god, because imagine how scummy it would be if those full-screen game advertisements could download a game directly to your phone, right?No, I know. I do understand that people are upset about that you can't directly get anyapp. I didn't really see any world that it would be a free-for-all to just install anythingwithout some restrictions. I thought it was possible Apple could go a sideloading route, butit would require a computer or something really annoying for people.I know people who wanted that free-for-all, but I think this keeps things honestlykind of the same as a whole.So what does it look like for developers who want to list their apps online?If a developer wants to list their app inside another app store, they first have to agreeto Apple's new terms that comes with some restrictions. The biggest of which is thatif you are now distributing outside the App Store, or even in the App Store and you accept thesenew terms, all downloads of your apps must now you have to pay 50 cents per download.But you get reduced commissions in the App Store if you accept these fees and you don'tpay any commission on payments themselves if you distribute outside the App Store. So ifyou're a developer, you can choose to now put your app outside the App Store — and I’ll alsosay, Apple allows the first million installs for free. So you don't pay 50 cents in thefirst million installs. So if you are an indie developer, you have an option now to justchoose to put your app not in the App Store, somewhere else, and you won't have to pay anything,assuming you don't get more than a million downloads. That's something I wish could bechanged, but that’s essentially it. You now have options to go outside the App Store. And ifyou don't, if you're not super popular or if you're not over a million downloads popular,you want to pay anything for that.So an interesting thing to note is that the EU can still say to Apple, “We don't like yourrules” and make Apple go back to the drawing board. What, if anything, do you think theEU might want to change about Apple's implementation?I do actually think they're going to be okay with most of this. I do think this doespretty much comply with the law. Most obvious thing changing is I think they could ask Apple toremove the core technology fee for free apps. Or maybe more nuanced, remove that fee forthe small business program developers. So if you're if you're not making more thana million dollars a year, you don't have to pay any fee on a free app. To me, I thinkthat's a reasonable thing. Like if you're just making a free app and you're not makingmoney from it, it's kind of rough that you could literally go bankrupt if you becomesuccessful. And so I would love to see that change with a carve out for that. Andthen I would really love iPad to be included in all this, because I didn't realize thatat first. I'm not surprised, but I think Apple is making a really dumb mistake for them becausethe iPad just could benefit so much more from sideloading and alternative app marketplaces thanthe iPhone. I mean, I love that I can play Pokèmon on my phone with Delta andeverything, but there's so much more on the iPad. We could have terminals. We couldhave programming environments. We could have any developer tool that can exist. AndI hope they can change that. I don't know if they're going to be able to get Apple to changethat requirement. - It's a completely different App Store, Riley. As you know, Apple runsfive different App Stores. - I know, we were reading all that rules and I was like, Apple,you can try. It's not going to matter. And I'm like, Oh my God, they got that carve out.So a lot of speculation and a lot of what developers are dreading is that after this,developers are going to have to spend the time listing their apps in dozens of the differentapp marketplaces. Do you think that will become the norm or that most app developers willjust keep their app in one spot? - I think the majority, the vast, vast majority of app of developerswill choose to keep their apps just in the App Store for one. I don't see a world wherepeople are distributing their apps across multiple storefronts as much. It's nice that Appledoes allow that, but I really view it as, if you don't want to be in the App Store, younow have another option. I think we'll see like people who couldn't be in the App Store.And so they'll put up with these different terms, like AltStore and like my emulator,Delta. I have no choice. This is the only way I can distribute my app. SoI'll put up with whatever these restrictions are.So you ran AltStore years before this announcement. How did that work? How did you put togetherthe necessary hacks to get an alternative app store before this announcement?Very creatively. Yeah. It was a lot of work-around stuff, but high level was:Apple a few years ago, like 10 years ago actually, made it so that if you have an Apple ID, youcan install your own apps you've programmed yourself from Xcode onto your device. So ifyou're a student, you can learn to program in Swift and then test out your apps on-deviceand you don't have to pay Apple any money. So AltStore basically used that exactsystem and let anyone be a developer and install their ‘own apps,’ except their own app was justapps other people were distributing. So AltStore would literally just download apps, and then signin with your Apple ID, and then make the app look like you developed it yourself, and theninstall it to your phone. And it was really hacky because apps expired after seven days.So you had to constantly refresh them. You could only install three at a time, but itworked! - After this announcement, you've said that you're turning AltStore into an officialapp marketplace. So what's next on your to-do list?It's immediate. So we're working on all the boring business stuff. Apple has alist of requirements to become like a compliant app marketplace. And so my business partner,Shane, and best friend, who work on all this with me, he's already on all that. So that'sjust chugging along so we can get the permission and start doing all this officially. But whatI'm really focused on right now is gutting the entire AltStore code base to basicallyreplace it with this brand new way of installing apps. So we've like built it knowing likeat some point Apple would allow this, but now that we know specifically what's here, I have to gothrough the code base, basically rip it all up and make it adapted to literally what we'vebeen given. - So what are some of the business requirements that you need to you need todo for Apple to approve you as a marketplace? - We need to have like a legal entity in theEU. So we’re already on that, setting up. We need to have — everyone's stressing out about the milliondollar line of credit to prove your company. This is not — it's not that crazy a requirement.It's a normal thing for businesses to prove that they have ways to do it. And so I'm notworried about that. We're working on it. I don't want to say too much, but we arejust fulfilling those requirements one by one. - So one of the more hidden rules isthat Apple's core technology fee is charged at every install of an app marketplace. Sowhat's your business plan on AltStore making back on that money?I don't want to say too much now, but I will say that we have figured it out. Like,people are worried about us and I just, I promise y'all we know we've made the numberswork out. We will make it work. It is annoying that marketplace apps have to pay 50 centseven on the first million. That would have been nice and could have made our financesmuch easier, but we are getting creative and we're making it work.So what a lot of people are fearing is that companies that have beef with Apple, like Facebookand Epic, would set up their own stores that you have to visit to download their apps thatpeople want. And you know, their apps would be privacy nightmares that Apple would neverallow in the App Store. Do you think Apple's rules prevent that from happening?Do I think it technically prevents that? No, I think Epic can be doing a store and tryingto steal stuff. There's just not much appeal for a consumer to have to jump through hoopsto basically get an app they already could get. Because then they're just like, “Why isthis not in the App Store?” So I think Epic's going to try and I think it’s possibleto get some games on board. There'll be games on their store that have better pricing andeverything. What I'm hoping for though with AltStore is that we’ll have new apps thatyou literally can't get anywhere else. And so that'll be like worth a little bit morejumping through a hurdle. Like there's nowhere else to get an emulator on your phone. So whynot jump through the hoop? - So for ordinary apps that Apple would otherwise approve, areyou going to try and sweeten the pot for those developers to encourage them to go on AltStoreinstead of the App Store? - I don't think we're going to actively try toreach out and try to get them. We want AltStore to be the best indiedistribution platform it can be. And so if there are indies that choose to put theirapps maybe at first on AltStore, to gain some traction or something, we wouldlove that. But I don't want to take out from the App Store. That is not somethingwe do want. - So a rule I think no one was expecting is that you can only set up an appmarketplace if you plan on accepting any and all apps for sale. So Facebook can't set upthe Facebook store where you have to go to download Facebook, Instagram, Threads and nothingelse. Do you think that would be enough to disincentivize these more unscrupulous companiesfrom doing that sort of thing? - I do. I do think there was a lot of peoplewho would just want to make their own storefront just for their own apps. Now, I don't thinkthis would necessarily stop Meta. I think they could just make a Meta Store that youcan also submit your app to. They could just do that. But I do think this was specificallyaimed at stopping a bunch of very specific providers from offering just their apps likeGoogle or Microsoft just with their own apps. Especially with the App Storechanges and the streaming services right aimed at Microsoft trying to stop them from buildingtheir own App Store just for their streaming app.Where can people stay tuned for updates on AltStore?You can follow AltStore on the major social media. On Mastodon, our preferable one, is @altstore@fosstodon.org.You can also follow us on Threads, @altstoreio, or you can follow us still on Twitter.We are still on Twitter. We're @altstoreio there, but we're trying to move to the otherplatforms as soon as possible. And also you can find me at @rileytestut@mastodon.socialand Threads.Well, thank you for your time. Have a good day.Of course. Thank you. You too.\n"