iMore show 330 - 2012 year in review

**Apple and iOS: A Year-End Reflection with Renee and Seth**

As 2013 draws to a close, tech enthusiasts and Apple fans alike find themselves reflecting on the year’s developments in hardware, software, and the broader competitive landscape. In this special year-end episode of *Iterate*, host Renee Ritchey sits down with producer Seth Clifford to discuss all things Apple, iOS, and mobile technology. The conversation spans a wide range of topics, from iCloud’s ongoing challenges to the future of Apple’s product lineup. Below is an in-depth look at their discussion.

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### **Apple’s Future: What Lies Ahead?**

Renee and Seth kick off the discussion by pondering what 2013 holds for Apple. They touch on the potential release of new products, including a thinner and lighter *iPad* and possibly a retina display for the *iPad Mini*. Both agree that while Apple continues to iterate on its existing hardware with incremental improvements, the real magic lies in its ability to maintain the seamless integration between its devices and services.

One key point of discussion is iCloud. Renee highlights how Apple’s cloud service has become a critical component of its ecosystem, but it still struggles with reliability and performance issues. Seth echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that while Apple’s hardware is top-tier, its web-based services are lagging behind competitors like Google. He suggests that Apple must prioritize fixing iCloud to ensure the long-term success of its devices.

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### **Hardware vs. Software: The Battle for Dominance**

The conversation shifts to the relationship between Apple’s hardware and software. Renee points out that while Android continues to evolve, offering greater customization and integration with services like Google Now, Apple remains focused on simplicity and elegance. Seth counters by arguing that iOS has become so polished over the years that it no longer needs dramatic overhauls. Instead, subtle improvements—like better notification management and multitasking features—are sufficient to keep users satisfied.

Both hosts agree that Apple’s strength lies in its ability to offer a cohesive ecosystem. From *iPhone* to *iPad* to *Mac*, Apple’s devices work together seamlessly, and this integration is something competitors have yet to fully replicate.

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### **The iPad Mini: A Game-Changer or Just Another Gimmick?**

One of the more lively portions of the discussion centers on the *iPad Mini*. Renee shares her initial skepticism about the device, citing concerns over its non-retina display and smaller screen size. However, after spending time with it, she admits that the mini’s portability and usability have won her over. Seth echoes this sentiment, explaining how the *iPad Mini* has become an indispensable tool for him, especially when paired with a Logitech keyboard.

Both hosts acknowledge that while the *iPad Mini* may not be for everyone, its compact size and versatility make it a compelling option for casual users and professionals alike. They also speculate about the possibility of a retina display version in 2013, which could further enhance its appeal.

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### **Android’s Rise: A Threat to Apple’s Dominance?**

As Android continues to gain momentum in the mobile market, Renee and Seth discuss whether this poses a significant threat to Apple. While they acknowledge that companies like Google and Samsung are innovating at a rapid pace, they remain confident in Apple’s ability to maintain its competitive edge. Renee points out that while Android offers greater diversity in hardware and services, it lacks the polish and integration that define the *iPhone* experience.

Seth adds that while Facebook and Amazon are rumored to be developing their own smartphones, these efforts are unlikely to unseat Apple as the dominant player in the consumer market. He suggests that such moves are more about niche markets than serious competition.

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### **The Role of iCloud and Web Services**

Renee and Seth delve deeper into the importance of cloud services in modern computing. They discuss how iCloud has become a cornerstone of Apple’s ecosystem, enabling seamless syncing of data across devices. However, they also highlight its shortcomings, including inconsistent performance and lack of scalability.

Seth argues that while Apple’s hardware is unmatched, its web-based offerings are falling behind. He suggests that investing in robust web services could be the key to maintaining Apple’s leadership in an increasingly connected world. Renee agrees, noting that companies like Google and Facebook have made significant strides in this area, leaving Apple playing catch-up.

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### **iOS 7: A Year of Subtle Improvements**

The discussion turns to iOS 7, which has been a year of subtle yet meaningful updates. Renee praises the improvements to notification center and multitasking features, while Seth points out that these changes are often underappreciated by users who don’t fully engage with them. Both hosts express hope that future iterations of iOS will continue to refine these features while introducing new tools for power users.

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### **The Competitive Landscape: Where Does Apple Stand?**

As the conversation winds down, Renee and Seth reflect on where Apple stands in the broader tech landscape. While they acknowledge the challenges posed by competitors like Google and Samsung, they remain bullish on Apple’s long-term prospects. Renee notes that the *iPhone* continues to dominate the smartphone market, while Seth points out that Apple’s brand loyalty is unmatched.

Both hosts agree that 2013 has been a strong year for Apple, with its devices continuing to set the standard for design and usability. However, they caution that complacency could be Apple’s undoing in the years ahead.

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### **Final Thoughts**

As 2013 comes to a close, Renee and Seth leave listeners with a sense of optimism about the future of Apple and iOS. While challenges remain— particularly in areas like iCloud and web services—they believe that Apple’s ability to innovate and adapt will ensure its continued dominance in the tech world.

In their concluding remarks, they encourage readers to check out the latest episodes of *Iterate* for more in-depth analysis of mobile trends, including interviews with industry experts and roundtable discussions on pressing topics like the future of app stores. They also hint at exciting new developments on the horizon, including a special CES preview episode.

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Whether you’re an Apple die-hard or simply curious about the latest trends in mobile technology, this conversation is sure to leave you informed and engaged. Stay tuned for more insightful episodes from Renee, Seth, and the *Iterate* team!

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: engood evening everyone it's December 23 2012 I'm Renee Richie and tonight we're discussing the year that was and the year that's coming up this is the imore show era backing up if you'd uh if you'd uh just go down I 87 and bring the back up straight to my Cottage I'd appreciate it recording all right H so tonight Seth we are going to talk about the year that was and I guess the world ending no I mean it was an interesting exciting year it was the first year without Steve Jobs in control of Apple in a long long time it was Tim Cooks what what what's the American war for was it his freshman year his sophomore year I forget which one comes first yeah freshman his freshman year as Apple CEO I think he did a he did a he did a really decent job obviously the stock spiked towards the middle of the year went up to around $700 it has come down since to around $500 but he oversaw the most massive product release in at least in in my memory for Apple yeah I I I think anybody looking at this past year and and saying anything other than it was successful uh regardless of what you think ought to have happened or what you think might have happened were Steve still around um you mean wasak right of course yeah uh Tim Cook did a phenomenal job um the company did not implode obviously there's a lot still happening in a in a positive direction like you said the stock price you know I think o over year-over-year is up something like 40% or something like that so is saying 27% in the chat room okay 27% um yeah I mean you can't look at this year and and the successes and the products and say anything other than it was another good year like you can you can argue it wasn't the best year or you can argue where the weaknesses were but the facts are that they sold a metric ton of new products and he had said something a couple weeks ago I forget the exact quote but it was something along the lines of some some really ridiculous percentage whether it was 60 or 80% of their current Revenue was being generated on products that were released in the last six weeks or something like that referring to you know the new phone and the iPad mini and the retina iPad and that's just that's amazing when you think about that like I I don't know a single other company that can put up those kind of numbers in that kind of time yeah cuz I mean like Microsoft makes a ton of their revenue off of office and windows but they don't release those you know once a year certainly not a couple times a year as was the case with the iPad this year right what do you think about that that was interesting too it was the first time that an iOS device made an appearance more than once a year they released the third generation iPad with retina display in March and then they released the fourth generation iPad also M Retina Display but also with lightning connector and international LTE and better cameras uh in October yeah it felt weird at first and uh kind of uncomfortable like you know your first yeah your first time at summer camp where you don't really know what's going on but you know it'll probably be fun so you just go along with it yeah but uh yeah I mean there was the initial holy crap what are they doing and you know does this reset the whole product line and what happens in March now and I mean that that kind of speculation is still going on but the the sentiment was for the iPad mini was you know we've got this thing we wanted to do and here it is and we don't want to wait and for the for the retina iPad update the comment was you know we've got our foot on the gas or something like that we're not letting up and it's both foot on the gas and pedal to the metal it was a double metaphor and it's yeah and it's basically just that it's like we had this stuff ready we're releasing it I don't think I something tells me they wouldn't do more than a a twice yearly bump like that I think people would start to start to clamor a little bit if uh if it came out monthly iPads yeah I think you know that'd be pushing it iPad June iPad July yeah but but they said you know as long when we have stuff ready we're we're bringing it to Market when it's ready it's going to be out there and if that means once a year twice yearly that's seemingly what's going to happen from now on and it you know it begs a lot of questions as to what is going to occur in the spring are there going to be no products is there going to be another rev um you know a lot of people a lot of rumors are going around and there's a lot of stuff that's uh that's circulating to that to that end and I'm I'm just curious to see what what actually happens in the spring and before we get to the spring I just want to back up for one second part of what made it awkward to me is they said all this brewhaha about the new iPad in March they so specifically called it the new iPad everything was the new iPad then in October it was the fourth generation iPad or the iPad with retina display um and that new thing it kind of fell flat when in during in the same year the new iPad was no longer the new iPad I'm not quite sure what was going on with Apple's typically awesome branding engine at that time yeah I know that was the cause of much consternation for people and uh it I feel like it was more of a debate than it needed to be but you're right I mean it it was kind of a strange departure and now they've gone to a more verbose explanatory title for the product which is isn't quite as pleasant to say but it's exactly what you're getting so there's really no misunderstanding it and I think that may be why why they went to that is that they went from one extreme to the other right it was iPad iPad 2 then it was the new iPad which really we know meant iPad third generation and then this is you know iPad with retina display parentheses fourth generation right so new the new iPad was no longer new the retina iPad was one of two retina IP ads it was just it was unclean I think they've gone you know that pendulum is swung back entirely in the other direction and while it is a little bit clumsy there's no mistaking what the product actually is and obviously with the mini I mean it's completely different it's tiny so it's delineated by size yeah all right so I want to get to the mini in a second because you put up a really interesting blog post about that but um you mentioned looking forward to the spring now Apple really has you know Phil Schiller said that about using the word new iPad we wanted to mix things up change expectations we didn't want to be predictable and certainly the fourth generation iPad in the fall wasn't predictable uh does that mean that Apple's going to keep not being predict I mean you can never always be non-predictable because the non-predictable thing becomes predictable but could we see a fall sorry a spring where there's an iPhone 5S where there's an iPad Mini 2 maybe an iPad mini Retina maybe an iPad 5 maybe an iPad 5 with the iPad mini's thinner uh lighter design language I mean how fast can apple go given that within the realm of physics there's only so many changes you can make to a device right I think that I think that as as per Tim's comment that they're going to do this stuff when it's ready and when they feel they want to there's a definite possibility that March could be an entirely new revision for all of all of this Hardware if they if they've got it ready to go I think that there's probably more of a chance for the iPad ads to be updated only because the the phone H still is like tied to the carriers and there's still that notion of contracts despite you know people you know breaking contracts and doing different things I think that the phone annually feels more right feels more natural and I think that it may I mean they could surprise us and totally do this but it might cause issues if if they have that kind of like midyear release for the phone if people just entered new contracts and don't you know don't want to break but Seth Motorola Razor Motorola Razor Max uh HTC 1X 1xs I mean it's it's being done on on the other side of the of the fence yeah yeah it is and I think that part of Apple's um part of Apple's success in the market is really the fact that they don't inundate people with choices they really just have one or two things that you need to make a decision between and I think if they Continue to update things too frequently especially if they keep those products on the market like right now we've got the free iPhone 4 the 4S and the five and that's pretty clean product line for everybody from people who want the latest and greatest people who don't really need the latest and greatest but want a solid device that has you know Siri and stuff like that and then people that want basically the free iPhone like what happens if they release a 5s in March like which which phone goes away does the five go away does the five become the 4S like how does how does the line shift and maybe they don't care and they're just like yep everything gets bumped down and that's that we're all reting it now and now we're going to go you know even more big screens there was three in the bed and the little one said roll over roll over yeah I I can't tell you the last time I actually heard that but uh do you prefer the monkeys jumping on the bed one fell down and bumped his head you're going to be reading all of these to little to little Clifford very soon about that I have I have a little baby now I should really up on this stuff brush up on your Kitty stuff but uh but yeah I mean the product line is is I think a little bit different than with the tablets and um I think it'd be easier for them to rev the iPads and the phones but that you know how the hell would I know maybe they're going to totally blow our doors off you think I think maybe part of the reason for that is to be unpredictable I mean previously we we saw companies program against Apple they knew Apple was in a yearly schedule the iPhone came out every June So at around CES time there would be a Nexus one and all the Geeks would Swoon to that because everyone had had an iPhone for 6 months and it was the new hot thing and it got a lot of attention because it was like the mid-season replacement phone for an iPhone and then it came around 2010 and apple did not release a phone in the summer they waited was it 16 months to release a new phone and people were suddenly we don't know when Apple's releasing now and it came out in the fall and they thought oh you know we're going to another year until the new iPad and boom new iPad comes out roughly six months later I wonder how much of that is just is to show that Apple can do what they want when they want um and they're not going to stick just to a 12- Monon cycle anymore ju I don't know I don't want to say the f- word on a Christmas show but just to mess with people no I think there's that there may be an element of that to it in that there is a certain predictability to their product release cycles and to a lot of observers that seems to border on stagnation like oh it's always going to be this one thing and then of course there's the the the title wave of uh underwhelm that follows when when it doesn't completely rip holes in the universe for you know we read the spoilers and we get upset that we know what's GNA happen exactly so I think part of it may be just to throw people curveballs and say like well guess what here's another phone here's another tablet what what now you know yeah I I don't know I mean maybe they do maybe they maybe they are adopting a more aggressive Market strategy for multiple reasons one is let's just keep doing the latest and greatest so that we can complete we can continue to run laps around people you know and the other one is we're not we're not going to let people game plan US based on you know our previous calendar we're we're going to completely do stuff when we want to do it which is kind of what they did you know pulling out a Mac world and doing their own events and stuff like that like equalent of a Crazy Ivan yeah they want to control everything from the news cycle to people's expectations to you know the market and at top to bottom they they want it all so maybe we will see phones more frequently which is going to be tough for a lot of people who you know maybe out of contract maybe renewed a contract and and didn't get an upgrade why this the thing I don't understand I'm a gadget lover a new thing comes out I want to buy it but I'm not angry at Apple for putting it out it seems like they can't win if Apple Waits a year oh they're slow they're stagnating they're not keeping up Samsung's putting out all these devices Apple's a failure if they dare to put out something that's under a year like the IP Apple's screwing me I just bought that one apple doesn't care about me it's it's like they're a jerk if they do and a jerk if they don't well yeah some people definitely see it that way I wasn't inferring that people would be angry of course they will be it's like Tim Cook comes to their house and breaks their iPad right in front of them I know some some seg of the population will always be angry at that because there's a certain there has been a certain reliability to those purchases and if that becomes upset then uh then they don't really know how to handle that I was thinking more just in terms of like somebody like me financially who really probably can do the upgrade but it's like oh man like I wasn't planning on it and that you know okay you know you got me need to have here's my baby food money there you go and I mean somebody in my position I really can't fuss too much because I can say things like I need to have it and the truth of the matter is I don't really need to have it but at the same time it's like we get you know when new things come out the the first thing out of our client's mouths is like so do you have the new thing yet can we can we support the new thing can we do this we're kind of your clients's not Microsoft I get it well like my my father he just upgraded from an iPhone 4 to an iPhone 5 he didn't buy an iPhone 4S had no interest in it then he called me I got an iPhone 5 how do I use a Siri thing my sister just upgraded from an iPhone 3 G has to an iPhone 4 she had she has no interest whenever whenever she needs to upgrade she'll get whatever she can get low price and she does she doesn't need anything more so I just wonder for how many for for every one of us I wonder how many normal people just don't even think about stuff like this oh AB tons I mean tons some a lot of people are still looking at a free iPhone 4 as like well why why would I pay any money at all I can get this this iPhone it's free it looks like the other one why would I even buy you notice that have you gone back and picked up your iPhone 4 or iPhone 4S lately I cannot believe I thought the iPhone 5 looked unnaturally tall and gangly like a lanky you know pubescent child at a certain point and then I went to do some work on my iPhone 4S yesterday and it was like an iPhone Mini it was it was stunted I can't believe how short the screen is I know even after like a week of using the five I went back to the 4S because I uh I unlocked the two that we had so we can take them overseas the next time we travel um since we left AT&T and you're allowed to do that and just even holding it and walking through the settings to like you know make sure that that went through I was like God this thing is so Squat and heavy and so few icons on the home screen like a fat Nano it's weird it really really is it's it's just getting back to Tim Cook for a second I mean he he isn't Steve Jobs nothing could be clear that he is not Steve Jobs but it seems like he has a love for apple and a love for product even though he's not a product guy he did an interview on NBC he had an interview in Bloomberg business week uh there were both very similar he very much stayed on message he he did a performance it wasn't anything off the cuffer candid but it came through that he even though he's not Steve Jobs he has a lot of the same core values and the management Shuffle that he did I think was one of the biggest things this year because he took out the guy who was in char charge of iOS who brought us iOS who who championed having OS 10 essentially having BSD Linux BSD Unix on a phone who championed having apps if not for Scott forall we could be running a Linux iPod phone or whatever the P I forget the name of the OS on the iPod right now Pico yeah a Pico phone with absolutely no apps uh and Tim Cook basically put a bullet in him for the greater good of apple he he smoothed things out he focused on people who could play nicely together uh Johnny I Bob Mansfield Eddie Q um what was uh Air Force One's real name I I'm I'm blanking on that now too federi yeah Craig federi and he basically did to Apple's management what Steve Jobs did when he came back to Apple and said desktop laptop uh Pro and consumer he now has Services technology design and uh software yeah it it was kind of a it was kind of an interesting move I guess a lot of people looked at it and said forol has to answer for maps and Siri but I mean that's that is by far not the whole story right I mean the guy's been there for what since next yeah like a a really long time so his issues whatever they may be with you know the other Executives and the people within the company far out way what what the public saw with Syrian Maps now that could be you know a permutation of those issues that those things came out the way that they did and kind of faltered a little bit and you know truthfully I've had plenty to say about Siri and I haven't had too many problems with maps although obviously a lot of people have the fact that he was so I don't know would it be ceremoniously or unceremoniously the way that he was he was gone yeah he was it was interesting and and he didn't he cook did not take power in fire forall it was roughly a year later that they reor and one of the other interesting things was uh John bowt am I saying that right bowet I think it was brow bowet something like that yeah who they brought in from a discount UK retailer whom every whom everyone uh the minute he was announced said was a really poor idea for um apple and he proceeded to do things that really doesn't seem to be in the best interest of Apple retail and they subsequent fired him and that was interesting because he was hired and fired under Tim Cook this wasn't Tim Cook changing Steve Jobs executive team so was Tim Cook starting to create his own faltering and fixing it right but yeah he was he was there saying Oscar f00 was saying it's brow yeah that was yeah that was a more interesting um selection and you know obviously the results speak for themselves but that guy came in under Tim Tim selected him and a lot of people like you said at the time were like this guy's not right even casual observers of the company that you know probably were able to discern that um and then yeah like with forall he's out but what was so shocking is that whereas forall you know had whatever issues he had internally and then kind of manifested in what we saw in iOS whether we liked it or didn't like it um brow it was brought in obviously on the heels of Ron Johnson leaving and going to JC Penney to kind of like steer that ship the retail ship and things that we heard were just bizarrely disconcerting like he wanted to cut people's hours and save you know money by not having as many people on the floor and like Penny wise and pound foolish like it's it was all completely counterintuitive to like all of the things that made the Apple Store a terrific retail experience to begin with that people un like there's a reason that there are often more staff members than people in the store like that's why it's good that's how it works and like just the fact that he wanted to like change all these things to Save A Buck like I get it that some people are driven by like you know margins and columns and spreadsheets and stuff but like that's not the place to do it like there's plenty of other places in the company to Save A Buck but don't do it there because that's that is the public but didn't cook know that going in I mean based on this man you it's like you hired the guy to come in and gut the place and then he started gutting the place people like oh my God he's gutting the place and you fire him it's like he knew what he was when he picked him up yeah I know that's that's what's so weird about it is that he he was basically like you like you said he was a UK retail guy like there was nothing specifically tuned to Apple about him I guess he was just successful in his previous his previous position and so that made him appealing to cook I I don't I don't know why he was select well like do we know where there other people in the running for that position yeah I don't know but there were always these rumors that cook and um Oppenheimer wanted a leaner meaner retail operation and I don't know if he came in test piloted some projects that was an utter failure and it was quickly disposed of you know almost like you you bring in you bring in that guy to do that thing like the I what's his name tore on The Simpsons like as long as tore is there Homer doesn't get fired and you let him kind of do his work and if it doesn't work out you know he's out as fast as he was in yep pilot test guy I I don't know that that whole the whole brow it retail thing never never sat well with me and I was relieved to hear that he was on his way out because I I personally did not want the Apple Stores to change and I thought that's that's the last place that they should change that is like that the the retail experience that Apple provides is basically the like it is textbook where people said oh this is the worst idea you ever and then it was completely the best idea they ever had and like proved everybody everybody wrong so like don't don't mess with a good thing ever when it stop when it stops working then you can Tinker yeah you you brought in an oasis and now you're putting up a fast food restaurant stop it yeah so uh you mentioned some of the other brewhaha maps I mean I much to some people's consternation in New Jersey was included uh but other people said that the points of interest were lacking the turn-by-turn directions were inaccurate um the that that Apple there's a huge project when you do maps you have to aggregate data from tons of sources you have to cleanse that data you have to sanitize it you have to you know some phone numbers might have dashes some might have dots some might be alt together some might have Spa spaces in between you there might be multiple listings for the same place it might be County names and city names and local names that are all similar and we know that people like Nokia and Google put feet on the pavement to go and visually inspect and check these things especially when it's high value things like hospitals or or or places where it's really important to get it right and Apple has not had time to do that and they seem to have floundered in taking the data that they did license from TomTom and other sources and putting it into a consistent reliable form um there's all these things that Apple shouldn't have released it but Apple did release it they're working on it is is this the big deal that people made it out to be and is it something fixable and if it's not how big a problem is that easy questions right I think it it is and isn't the problem that they made it out to be I think now we'll we'll expound on these it is and isn't a problem it can be fixed and you know what that looks like is actually going to depend on who kind of decides to steer that ship I think it is a problem because map data is something that you really can't mess around with especially when you're talking about things like finding hospitals and stuff like that I mean that's that is a that is a data stream that people have come to rely on just like their Cellular Connection for voice and for data in and of itself that's just something that you know the fact that the Google contract expired and was chosen not to be renewed and apple said that's okay we're going to do our own thing like Maps should not it feels like a beta and it shouldn't be a beta you know like Siri can be a beta because Siri is it's a selling feature it's cool it's fun it's like a new interface but you you can absolutely use every other part of the phone and never touch so you can turn Siri off if you want to but I think that the way people have come to rely on mobile map data kind of giving them a subpart product and then saying like isn't it beautiful look at fly over it's the greatest and it's like that doesn't help anybody ever no one ever said God could Superman Seth I could not have done this without fly over Superman says that flyover has saved him a good 0.2 seconds when catching lowest from falling helicopters right now I I would he's probably the only person that I would buy so Google the contract was expiring I think they had six months left on it so it would expire midterm it would not expire during an OS update cycle it expire in the middle of it uh Apple reportedly wanted turn-by-turn navigation which Google provides for free on Android and Google would only provide it if so they also wanted Vector tiles and Google would only provide them if again reportedly Apple also took latitude and more onerous location Det protection stuff that Google wants cuz that's how they make money uh we're their products they want our data um so they were at an impass and the Apple Maps app just simply could not move forward so it's I forget what the technical term is but you have two bad options and Apple's bad options were to persist with a crappy Maps app or that would stay crappy for the foreseeable future or to make their own Maps app which would see and I know they didn't think it was going to be crappy they thought that they would be able to make a good map sa but reality was they could not make a good maps app in time but maybe they will in a future yeah and and they they can they can still fix this but I think the biggest part of the problem was that it was positioned as a fully finished full featured product and that how it was presented to people and that's what people thought they were getting if if they had come out and said this is a a Herculean job that we're taking on and we realize it's not it's not great just yet but it's going to be great and it's pretty good right now and we're really proud of it and we're really happy you think we we think you'll like it anyway if they had just positioned it as such I don't yeah I don't think there would be quite the backlash because people would say the way that we're saying oh you know what map dat is a tough nut to crack instead of saying and they screwed it up we would be saying so we're going to give them a break on on this you know the iOS 6 release of maps and it'll probably be Rock Solid and seven it can be fixed it's not outside of the realm of possibility but the perception can't be fixed because they introduced it as a finished polish black eye and it's not it absolutely isn't uh Jade wild sta is saying that there's no turn by turn still in Australia and some people in the chat room are saying that that they forced Google this was you know this is a theory that that started that apple apple was brilliant they tricked Google into making Google Maps for IOS as far as I know that's absolutely not true Apple thought that they would be able to make a fantastic Maps app and kick Google off their phone the last thing they want they iOS 6 was in large part in order to remove Google in their data hooks from the iPhone the last thing Apple wanted is for people to flock back to a Google map and restore and even give more information uh to Google Google makes far more money on iOS than they make on Android uh iOS data is incredibly valuable to uh Google who is a competitor of apples and no one likes to be uh an asset for their competitor so uh in no way did Apple foresee this to be the reality of the situation they thought they were going to make a kickass Maps app right and I mean truth of the matter is is that when Maps does work properly it is a very nice app I mean the the vector Maps look great I personally you know I haven't really had any problems with it I don't rely on it every day I use it maybe once a month to go somewhere and the couple of times I've used it it's been okay it hasn't been a problem for me it's I I like it because I haven't had an issue and I think it's way more attractive than the other Maps you know and obviously the perform us large US cities it works very well and the further you get away from large city in us the more it degrades right yeah I've seen some ridiculous pictures from people around the world where like it basically looks like a an an EMP went off in their in their yard but I mean no one's perfect for I don't know why but for the last six months both navigon and Google have decided that I need to drive loops around neighborhoods to go like there'll be a straight line road and I'll be told to turn left turn left turn left turn left and then go straight I I don't know who did that they thought it was a joke maybe it's Steven colar I'm not sure uh but someone at some point you know has some some faulty and this happens with every Maps app I think Google's reliability right now I think they probably have the best data in the world maybe Nokia is you know in that race too TomTom somewhere there as well but no one is providing me perfect directions yet I know and and the worst part is that I wish that something like what is it open street map is that the first one I wish that all of these companies could come together and pull their data and license it the way that patents you know like like the MP3 Consortium and stuff like that initially because that you know the MP3 became a standard for that reason there were a bunch of companies that got together and said hey this is this is a direction we want to go in here's the format that we're going to use like how great would it be for that to happen for map data like consumers would absolutely win them because you would be able to collate all that data and always have the best data no matter no matter where you are there never compete on interface right yeah absolutely I mean interface add-ons all there's so many other layers you can apply if the map data is right from the start and I feel like we're still fighting a battle that should be over uh yeah no that's absolutely true and sakra was just talking about MP3s piracy and iTunes and that reminded me that iTunes 11 it was announced along with the iPhone 5 and the new iPods it was delayed by a month and then it was released it was said to be an allnew version of iTunes certainly it looks like an allnew version of iTunes we've spoken briefly about it on iterates Seth but you you have told me privately that you don't think it's gotten anywhere near the lashing that it deserves yeah I okay so you know it works right you open it up and it plays your music it starts the app starts right the app starts and it works but a lot of people have said I'm certainly not the first nor the only one that Apple has started to really drag its feet fall down however you want to put it when it comes to their software experience expences right like there are a lot of gaps and a lot of questionable choices that they're making now that maybe 5 years ago would would not have even crossed the mind of developers that that was acceptable and one of the things that I think people like about Apple is that there is a a consistency among the apps like ioto and iMovie used to feel like two parts of the same puzzle and iTunes kind of fit into that and all the all the different pieces plug in together and I feel like this latest iteration of iTunes is so far a field of What Not not like what people are expecting but what a direction that they should be going in to like kind of unify the interface and I know the argument would be made oh but they are because it looks more like you know the iPad I you know music app there are so many things about it because it is an app a legacy app that has been uh built on and things have been bolted into it and new functionality has been you know drilled into its foundation it needs to be killed summarily killed put out Woodshed and shot upside down and the Earth has to be salted above it it needs yeah and it needs to start again like there is there's no fixing it at this point and and you could go in any direction you want whether it's functionally uh you know if you right click on something there's one menu if you click on an arrow there's a different menu with some of the same things but not some of the other ones you want to talk the interface I mean it's baffling to me some of the choices that they've made made just looking at the main window like the the default views and you know the the width of certain things and the placement of certain buttons it's a train wreck it's an absolute train wreck and yeah again you turn it on it plays your music it's fine but in term if you're really going to deconstruct it and think about it in terms of like what should Apple be doing where should this be going since iTunes is such a a flagship thing for them like probably the the biggest consumer app that they have it's not it's not good it just isn't sock ret is arguing that it's an intermediary step that is it's as far as Apple could get done in time and that there will be another version that takes it the next step he's also saying oh God Seth oh God it's not all that bad no and I know and I'm fired up mostly because we've talked about it for three weeks and said like oh let's do a show where we talk about it and then we just haven't it does have popover on top like like what do you call it nested compounded popovers which can never be good yeah um you know honestly I'm sure if we had Mark here he would be able to to talk about this in much more lucid and Technical manner with that with that dreamy accent but it just uh it's not it's not a good app it just isn't it's functional and it does what it's supposed to do most of the time but it's not a good app don't don't tell me it's a good app no it's a severely I mean it is by design a severely compromised app it was originally a music was it sound Jam soundbox something like that it was originally a sound a music playing app and apple is bolted on and added to and built upon and it serves Too Many Masters it is an app of all trades and a good one at none and it's also the only one of the only apps Apple has to wrap up try to figure out how to get core animation Core Audio core video everything like that and Port it over to Windows uh which is probably why it's still a monolithic mess of a Monster app in many ways um is it better than it was in the previous version I I don't know I understood it I understood what it was I don't know what it is I just hope that I will like where it eventually gets to yeah I mean at its core it's a big database app when you think about it it's just here are the things here are the records that I need to display not records like albums like you know line records information if you think about it in terms of that like these are the files and these are the things that I need to point to the further away it gets from that without kind of starting over the more complicated the interface becomes and like my big concern is like figure it out I'm fine with it like I I'm pretty much used to it already as much as I don't like it but like the I've put a lot of faith into it and I have a lot of files in iTunes at home especially like on the Mac Mini Server that thing has everything in iTunes because we have the Apple TV upstairs how the the minute that causes me to doubt like things are breaking or like I'm losing files or something happens like that's it for me like I don't know what I'm going to do but it like that's that as long as it Remains the hub for all of these things I'm always going to have this like fear and this little bit of doubt that like something's going to break it's not going to work the way I needed to because it continues to become more complicated and I'm not saying it's an easy job to fix it but it it has to be done at some point they've got to either strip it completely back or they have to decouple all of these things that are that are combined in it and give people dedicated apps as much as that sucks like you've got an app store on the iPhone and you have iTunes on the iPhone like we need to break those things out like it needs to be that makes it harder to P I mean Mech 1164 is saying that it's still lipstick on a pig and I think that's what's unusual because you know with iMovie Apple scrapped the old app started over and then has slowly been Resto restoring functionality with Final Cut Pro 10 the same thing happened arguably with maps the same thing is happening this is not that they did not scrap iTunes 10 start over with a completely new app and have to start adding back functionality they kept the same app and skinned it so it has all the function functionality but it's differently usable and that's not something I'm used to seeing from Apple I'm not used to seeing uh to put it in battar Galactica parlons skin jobs yeah we could we could go on all night about this but uh like I said it's functional but it's not nice yeah you use it because you have to not because you want to right uh yeah no that's absolutely true uh we touched on it briefly but the iPad 4 is now the only iPad uh in the 2012 lineup that doesn't have Apple's new design language it doesn't have the anodized back plate the the wrer angled curves um it doesn't have the thinner design that's about the only big change I can see them doing next year but do you think that that it's missing that is it the odd man out is it a strange sort of outof time device now uh I think it is for a little while just just because you know everything is moving on to that new design language and it kind of does stick out now but at the same time it's like it's very familiar and I don't think people were expecting it like regular people aren't really expecting that to change I think when they go in they're they're looking for it and they're recognizing it and being like okay that's that's the iPad and then there's the mini and like okay that's the mini that's different and it kind of looks like the phone but not exactly I I would be shocked if the next version of the larger iPad didn't follow that same you know anodized back plate looking feel and I think that when that happens they're going to be really really nice devices and I'm going to probably want to play with them but uh see now you know where I'm leading you with this because you originally were not we had very similar experiences with the iPad Mini we both when we heard it was not going to be retina we were both trepidacious because our uh gentle soft um pupils cannot handle the Sandpaper that our standard definition pixels we've grown up on the iPhone 4 4s uh the retina iPad and we didn't want to go back uh now we both bought it when it came out you tried it for a couple days I was forced to use it for over a week to write a review I'm going to let you go first though Seth because I think your story is much more interesting well I mean for for people that come to the live shows or have listened into the podcast The Story Goes Like This Renee and I basically took opposite sides when it came to what do we think the iPad Mini is really all about but how long had you used it for at that point uh I I got it you know as soon as it came out and I basically loaded all my stuff on it use it for about an hour or two and was like not for me yeah not not my thing and I was forced to use it for a week because I had to write a review about it like a 10,000w review or something insane and and I think that the the the time afforded the device definitely changes your perception of it which I did not realize I kind of went with a very quick gut judgment like yeah I'm looking at this it's not what I want uh it's it's not it's not my eyes my eyes yeah I mean honestly it wasn't it wasn't so much the retina or the non-retina rather that was the the stopping point it was more the visual elements at that point when the mini came out admittedly I was was using my larger iPad a lot like just prior to that I was using it a lot so I was used to seeing things at a certain size and uh when I saw the mini everything felt too crowded too compressed the banner notifications were hard to read like everything was just not the way that I needed it to be I felt like they compromised and that they really did just kind of cram it into the display without you know treating those little elements in their own way and what ended up happening was I just was like yeah it's not for me put it in the test pool at work and that was that and so I didn't think about it and then I started thinking about it and I realized that I wasn't using my iPad at all and I have you know the Kindle Fire I bought the HD after having the one last year just because I I still I still think it's a kind of cool device I like you know Amazon stuff and I like to play and comparing Mist I understand I accept that totally fine well truth be told the screen on the HD is actually really nice and it's a really nice device for reading and and panzino agrees with me so there um but basically I kept thinking about it and everybody that I knew everybody I talked to was like oh yeah the mini I don't even touch the big one anymore it's great Justin got one our CFO got one and every single person was like saying the same thing and I started to feel like I was going crazy like did I miss something did I did I not do did I not give it you know due diligence and so I finally buckled and ordered one and it it arrived and I was like okay I feel good that I made the decision to do this and then I started using it and like put you know put the big one away started using the little one and something weird happened and the weird thing that happened your heart grew two sizes that day that's exactly I am completely completely Head Over Heels like stupid crazy teenage in love with it now and I don't I don't understand it it doesn't even make sense to me but I I can't put it down and it really I think it is if you just break that like maybe it's a two-day barrier where you stop noticing the things you don't like comes the device that you always really wanted because it is a fantastic size and weight and then you stop seeing the things that you don't like and you're like well look at all the things I can do I can I take it from room to room I always have it with me I can hold the baby and still hold it it's not ridiculous like I have it in bed it's comfortable to read with I can you know have it on my lap it's like there's nothing there it's a fantastic device and I just I I don't know why I was so against it I really don't and you know what I'm the first person to say hey you know what I was wrong about that I have no problem going back on my word and eating my words or whatever expression you want to use I I have no problem with it and in this case nothing nothing could be more true I I totally blew it by not giving it a a fair Shake HUD halor yeah it is a Christmas miracle it's know I mean I had the same reaction at first I was like oh I felt like I was going back in time I thought I was taking a step back I had a retina iPad 3 the the retina iPad 4 arrived the same day as the iPad Mini so I had both and I was looking at it and one was one of the best displays I'd ever seen and the other looked like my iPhone 3GS but bigger um and I didn't I didn't think I'd like it but one of the primary things I use with my iPad is a mobile hotspot whenever I'm out I have an iPad with me and I tether to that because I don't want to run down the battery on my phone and if I have to edit the site while I'm out um truple does not play nicely on a small iPad screen so I a small iPhone screen so I use the iPad and everything that the most important things to me ended up being the things that the iPad Mini were really good at it's it the battery life is as long as the iPad 4 the everything about it is as good but be it just feels lighter faster it feels all those things and it's it's difficult to explain but as I used it I just came to enjoy it more and more I don't want to say it's the iPad as it was meant to be because I always have a MacBook with me and if I don't have a MacBook with me I would rather use the iPad 4 for typing for for doing a lot of productivity work but since I always have that I that MacBook with me the iPad Mini becomes just the best possible iPad for me yeah I mean my my arguments when we talked about it were I like the bigger screen on the you know the larger iPad because I do a lot of writing on there I do you know Garage Band stuff I do play with music apps I do stuff like that and what I came to realize is that I wasn't using the larger iPad it was just sitting there and so these theoretical arguments as to why the larger screen made more sense were great but I wasn't even putting them into practice and you know I was using my phone a lot but I was thinking I had post ideas or things I wanted to write and I was like I don't feel like picking it up and one of the things I really like is the Logitech ultra thin keyboard I've I've really grown to enjoy using that and you know it doesn't fit great with the with the mini but I was you know with the smart cover I kind of like folded it back and parked it on top and I was like okay this is this is good enough and it you know I wrote a thousand words on it yesterday morning without an issue and and proof read and posted from there and was just like holy crap I yeah this is it like I don't even need to debate it anymore yeah it really does sort of grow on you like you have to give it a chance because Apple basically had it could have two of three things it could have the 10-hour battery life it could have uh the thinness and lightness or it could have a retina display and a retina iPad with you know three or four hours of battery life is a non-starter uh a retina iPad that's as thick as an iPad 4 if not thicker is a non-starter uh so they they chose what ended up being the same compromise that was good for me was yes the screen's not retina but everything else about it is topof the line um it's it's it really is one of the most beautiful Best Built devices they've ever made made um so going back to what led me into this discussion Seth if come March we get a iPad 5 that has the same design language that's thinner and lighter like an iPad mini and maybe let's just say for the sake of argument we get an iPad Mini with a retina display that's as dense um as an iPhone 5 which device would then be for you um if you have you know much closer cap capabilities in both I think honestly if if we had that choice you know the the larger iPad with the retina screen and the body and then the smaller iPad obviously with much less weight and a retina screen I think I'd probably go with the mini again because now that I've had it now that I've seen that you know it is a very able device I think that I really do like that better I think it is far more port it's it's the kind of thing that like I used to feel kind of lame dragging my iPad into a meeting to like take notes or something Hey look it's iPad guy how you do an iPad guy take some notes on your iPad iPad guy did you start to feel like oh look it's the guy taking notes on his okay great we get like your iPad but like this thing like it's like a little book and you kind of just flip it out and it's there and then it's gone and it's so small and it's so thin I I think that that size is is really the one that I wanted soft cover compared to the hard cover of the IP of the big iPad yeah I think it's just a much more humanized device and that you know there'll be plenty of people who say the bigger one is always GNA be better there are people are asking for Mark want's a 21 inch my bad I know he does but uh for like day-to-day take it around with you kind of use cases I don't think you can beat this this size I think it's just the best yeah you know what's odd for me is that uh when you know Apple has done different Siz products of similar capabilities previously they have the MacBook Air 11 inch and the MacBook Air 13inch and yes the 13 in is slightly more powerful it's got more pixels yada y y but they're very similar machines and I know a lot of bloggers went Georgia loves the 11-inch MacBook Air she wants the smallest easiest to carry around MacBook possible and I went for the 11in because I wanted the extra pixels the vertical pixel height because I do development some web stuff I do design stuff do Photoshop that was important to me and now I've switched to a retina MacBook Pro 15in and I was willing to give up size and portability and all those things to have those retinas and those pixels but because I have that device I think I would skew towards the iPad Mini as well because um it's like I want the the highest high-end I can have and then the lowest low end is fine I don't that then I'm covering the range of my needs yeah we all have 15inch um MacBook Pros at the office non- retina because your eyes well see I was just saying this this I think it was jbab online today I don't have a problem with the non-retina display on the laptop because I use it at a distance and I I've been using laptops for so long that it's just that's that's how I expect it to be once I saw the retina display on a mobile device it was like you know the world changed forever but I've seen the retina Mac like Morpheus had awakened you in The Matrix no it really was and I I've seen it I've used it it's an amazing device it's gorgeous but I I don't need retina there like I'm not doing the kind of work where that kind of screen is going to be a huge benefit to me just don't look at one for too long Seth because you'll come on the show and go damn it I those thing you know listen the the iPad Mini that you know like buying that on a whim and saying like oh I need to have this it's a lot different than a $2,300 laptop absolutely that's like isn't that entry level price isn't it like 22 to get in the door and then if you really want it to be good it's it's it goes from unseemly to ungodly very quickly on the price scale so I I thought about it I I will be getting probably an air before I get that because I I feel like a d let's not even go dare let not even I feel like portability and and the ability to use my tools when and where I want them is more valuable to me now and that's something that I that I came to realize with the min is that I'd rather have this thing with me and and when I have the idea to write whip it out and write it and just be done and be like great and then fold it up and put it away as opposed to oh I've got this idea let me leave myself a reminder that I want to write about it later and then really never get back to that that idea because I don't I'm not in that moment you know like that's that's where the mini made a difference for me it was like if I've got it I'm going to use it and if I use it I'm going to do the things that I think I want to do when I want to do them as opposed to sometime later when I'm probably going to forget and so the the retina display is not the deal breaker for me on the laptop I think that I do need a a bigger screen I need a 15inch screen because I when I do work I do need a little bit extra space to kind of move things around so were there a 15inch air I think that would be my computer no matter what retina or not it's amazing how um and it sounds silly because these are these are premium luxury items but there are always compromises you can't have everything it's not you know Apple doesn't offer every model they don't make every screen size at every half inch increment but also there are physics the laws of physics the laws of economics and apple just can't make everything yet uh and we still have to decide between you know the portability of an air and the power of a pro uh the smallness and the sleekness of an iPad mini and the power of a full-size iPad uh the cheapness of an iPhone 4 versus the you know I don't even notice the awesome quality of an iPhone 5 and all of these you can't have everything you just got to make the the best choice that you can with the money um and the time that you have yeah I I I think the the lesson that I am taking away from the mini experiment is is as I said I'd rather have the tool I want to use with me than the the the theoretical best tool for the things that I want to do you know the the retina iPad is better in so many ways and the retina MacBook is better in so many ways but when I want to sit down and work or when I want to write when I want to do something I want to just do it and for me right now the stuff that I'm doing if I'm really honest with myself the mini is a better tool because I'm gonna have it with me I'm GNA use it as opposed to oh well it's nice but you know yeah no I absolutely agree with you uh so let's just wrap this up with um what do you want to see from Apple in 2013 Seth what is your if if you were the secret power behind the throne at Apple what would you be having them do in 2013 fix their web services I honestly isn't isn't isn't this the the the the in the armor for them like they have the really nice Hardware they've got the nice software integration but the missing link for all of this stuff is is iCloud and reliability and stuff like that like I I still don't feel like they've they've got that ironed out I think Hardware they can continue to iterate and roll out nicer lighter better versions of what we have currently in our hands for the next two years but what they need to do is they need to take all the things that they're promising all the magic of iCloud and make it work every single solitary time and make it so stupidly easy to use that you know I don't even have to to consider where my data is or what I'm doing because that's really the promise of iCloud but if you even stop to think about what's happening you know behind the scenes and how the gears are turning anybody who actually understands computers it runs in the other direction yeah I mean and that is a non-trivial thing to fix I I wrote an article about that a while ago and I joked that it's much easier for Google to buy designers and developers than for Apple to do a mock funeral for web objects and come out with a modern lightweight powerful highly scalable you know incredibly powerful web framework but it's not really a joke that is really a a tough problem and I hope they do invest cons I me it's hard to get the talent it's hard to to get the it's hard to get the scale that the Facebooks and the um Googles and the Amazon have done and you don't get it by buying Twitter that you that that's just silly but they do they do urgently um need to address that because if Lauren Brier can put out a game and tear down your social gaming Network in a fortnite then you have a severe problem yeah I mean forgive me for making it sound trivial it's not it's a it's an enormous problem and it's a huge engineering issue that they can solve because if anybody has the money to hire the right people it's it's apple right I mean they they' they've got the ability to do that but I think it needs to become a focal point because as they continue to extend these platforms and yet connect them all back together that's going to be the thing that holds it in place and until that stuff is like absolutely Rock Solid reliable there's always going to be these little points of like falling down where it doesn't quite form the way people are expecting and as soon as your expectations are not met as a user you start to just not be as happy and what about Johnny IV and redesigning I mean we we hear people say I I just miss this usually when someone says iOS is boring because it's not the job in operating system to entertain you that's why you Apple wants you to move from icons into Apps and stay in apps um but you know a lot of people Steve kovak from Business Insider said he's replaced every default Apple app with the Google equivalent the Gmail app the Google Maps app you know G+ there's an argument to be made that one of the best Google phones on the planet right now isn't an Android device but it's an Apple device and that's Apple's competitor having a huge footprint once again on their phone and this time one apple doesn't control um does Apple have to do remarkable and amazing things in iOS 7 um I mean what can they do they're not going to do stuff in iOS 7 aluminum a new theme it's called aluminum they're not going to do stuff inside of a year in iOS 7 that is going to change someone's mind who's heavily invested in Google services and sees that Google Apps hang together a lot better than Apple apps do right that's there's just not enough time to do that before the next the next software release I think what they what they can do is look at how Google is doing stuff and say oh wow you know what all this company that we can't stand has all these disperate apps that work work better in tandem than our you know purported apps should work together and you know what's the lesson that we can take away from it I don't think there's anything they can do to fix it or to change the minds of people who are just you know in that ecosystem but I think there's a lot of lessons to take away from how Google is doing stuff to make their own stuff work better I I think that's super important Kenneth uh Joseph K in the hope I said that right in the chat room is saying swipe to dismiss notification you can already do that swipe slightly downwards swipe to the right the notification is gone swipe the switch between apps you can do that already on the iPad but not the iPhone just multitask forcing your swipe between apps um but you see what I what I want is like I have a Nexus 4 now I've been using a Nexus 4 for the last couple days and I'm have a thread about it in the Android Central forums um and for everything I like better about it there's something I like worse it's it's still people say that they're you know they're outpacing Apple but in many ways like the interface still drives me out of my mind and the idea of widgets is still Stupify to me and this is something I hope you know Google's starting to address that with actionable notifications and that's what I want I I don't need to go to the data anymore I'm busy doing things I want the data to come to me I want I like that Siri presents wedge widgets I like that notification center presents widgets I like that Google like web OS did has actual notifications but that's what I want I want everything coming to me now I don't want to have to go looking for things anymore and I certainly don't want to hang out on a home screen like it's a playground and just glance at all data things as I swipe around no I totally agree with you I I mean that's that's one of the things that probably we as you know quote unquote power users would want to see more than anything is is enhance the way that the data is actually presented to us make it more efficient but you know we always keep coming back to this where we are no longer the target market for these devices we never were they were never for geeks no certainly not Android was for geeks but I has always been for my mom and my sister yeah and as as reductive as that sounds it's a really tough thing to do to satisfy all of these different types of users with with one single device and I feel like they're kind of getting there you know stuff like notification center definitely is a nod to that like hey we realize that people who need more actually do need more and and we're we're trying to help you know help that process along let me ask you this I am the only one there are five iPhone owners in my family I am the only one that uses notification center that uses a fast app switcher um that uses any of the features that are more disguised and for as much talk as the inter internet makes about you know Apple should let us set our own default so I can have Chrome is my browser and Google Maps my maps this is something that would never occur to any of those people in my family and I know you have other people around you with iPhones is are these issues with IOS as as big in the mainstream as we make them out to be in the tech press no certainly not we we live in a microcosm of hyperfocus on things that most normal people could not possibly care any less about it's it's ludicrous to think that the things that we choose to focus on would ever even cross the desk of a lot of the people at Apple because it's there are such edge cases that we make into much larger things but that's not to say that they're not important and that's not to say that they're not going to be valuable someday it's list below copy and paste sorry jaw's jaw's list below copy and paste just really really really far ahead of you know where the device needs to be we we're we're where we want it to be but it's it's not where it needs to be and like I said there's there's value in that and because you know looking at where the OS is now as to where it started obviously a lot of the stuff that we asked for that's the stuff that I used to jailbreak for that I said oh I will never not jailbreak a phone you know I don't jailbreak anymore because I don't hear people talking about it as much anymore yeah I mean that could just be you know a technical reasons or it's harder or there's not a great public solution I don't need to do it because the things that I used to jailbreak for that I needed to speed up my phone to to be productive they're they're pretty much there except for bite SMS I have everything I needed let's not even get into that that's a still angry about B SMS getting there the OS the OS grows every year the OS adds things you know like I I still forget that like when someone's calling you you can swipe up and do the quick reply with a message and stuff like like I I loved that when it came out I still not even using this built-in features anymore that's what I mean like there there are little bits of complexity that I still enjoy that that most people don't even know about so I feel like there are there are still places for the OS to go that will please us greatly and and still be usable to people but they are going to be hidden they are not going to be tent poles there are going to be things that we are happy with that are there but there things that normal people won't even care about so I I guess the LA the very last thing is the competitive landscape we already we've talked about Apple and Android and there'll certainly be uh there'll certainly be a Galaxy S4 next year and then HTC 4K phone or whatever the hell they're making uh but there also might be new things there might be an Amazon Kindle phone for the first time uh Mark Zuckerberg and Company are as far as I know still working on a Facebook phone they just launched a poke app so that they will have a built-in sexting client when this phone launches uh there will be a large variety of in of very talented other companies maybe getting into the phone game already beginning in the tablet game where do you see apple stacking up with these I think that apple and the iPhone are pretty pretty well entrenched in in the consumer mind space so much so that while there may be a Facebook phone there may be an Amazon phone I don't think I mean they may be successful I'm not going to say you know oh they're not even gonna have a chance I think they will pay you a hundred bucks to take an Amazon phone because they'll make it up on movies right I mean people will buy them you know I bought the Kindle Fires because I was curious and you know I still think for certain use cases they're okay devices people will buy them you know those phones will sell they won't sell as many as the iPhones they won't sell as many as Android in aggregate but there's I mean mobile is as big as mobile is we are looking at like the tip of the iceberg this is the the the future without being you know resorting to hyperbole Seth Google is making an X Phone with Motorola to compete against both Apple and Samsung because Samsung is now competition to Google well if you look at it on on that level of like let's let's talk you know real economic you know shifting and markets and and all that and the acquis positions and really get nerdy yeah we we could we could completely lose ourselves you asked me where does Apple fit into all this I think they fit in exactly where they've been fitting in in that they have an incredibly strong brand people know it people like it they continue to sell millions upon Millions every single phone they release sells more than the previous phone I don't think they have anything to worry about I think the market is big enough to support other stuff but I don't think there's going to be anything that's going to supplant the iPhone in consumer Minds in the near future despite all the crazy analysts this year like every year telling us that Apple has peaked that Apple has gone through the Looking Glass that apple is no longer that which in days of old moved Earth and Heaven just think about who those analysts are writing for it's people like us it's no they're writing for clients to manipulate people like us yeah well they they can write what they want there's that and then there's you know real actual reality so real real I've heard of this reality Seth sometimes it's cold and I have to pay for things but I've heard about it right all right sir well I want to thank you for joining me on this yearend apple and iOS of palooza um if people are interested in you the stuff you're writing the things that you're developing Seth where can they find you uh you can find me on app.net and Twitter I'm Seth Clifford in both places uh and if you want to see some of the work that we do at our company uh nickel fish.com nice and we pre-recorded two episodes of iterate for the holidays we have a Christmas episode and a New Year's episode and we have Brad Ellis um Lou Mantia and Jesse Char from Pacific Helm joining us and we also have a round table with David Barnard and Russell Ivanovich on the future of app stores looking forward to both of those yep good stuff check them out you will have lots to listen to all right well you can find me at Renee Richie you can find all of of us at imore you can email us at podcast imore.com and for all of our shows you can go to mobilenations.com/shows or just check them out on imore when we post them uh Seth thank you for joining us everyone in the chat room thank you so much for joining us um I'll also I I'll give you some teasers for debug too guy English and I sat down and did interviews with uh Dave tier from one password which will be out I believe tomorrow and with Craig hackenberry and Sean Herbert of um sorry SE Heber of twitterific so we have tons and tons of good stuff coming to this holiday season yeah cool you champ be podcast L and we're going to do a mobile Nations podcast a year end uh actually we're going to do a mobile Nations CES preview I think next week so it'll be a lot of fun stuff is that the best Christmas movie ever die yeah pretty much it's between that and elf for me like you sit on the throne of lies and stink of meat and cheese yeah yeah I I think I need to go by die hard I was actually thinking about watching it today Santa's coming I know him I buy all that I buy into Will Farrell completely in those characters yeah I know he's he really sells itgood evening everyone it's December 23 2012 I'm Renee Richie and tonight we're discussing the year that was and the year that's coming up this is the imore show era backing up if you'd uh if you'd uh just go down I 87 and bring the back up straight to my Cottage I'd appreciate it recording all right H so tonight Seth we are going to talk about the year that was and I guess the world ending no I mean it was an interesting exciting year it was the first year without Steve Jobs in control of Apple in a long long time it was Tim Cooks what what what's the American war for was it his freshman year his sophomore year I forget which one comes first yeah freshman his freshman year as Apple CEO I think he did a he did a he did a really decent job obviously the stock spiked towards the middle of the year went up to around $700 it has come down since to around $500 but he oversaw the most massive product release in at least in in my memory for Apple yeah I I I think anybody looking at this past year and and saying anything other than it was successful uh regardless of what you think ought to have happened or what you think might have happened were Steve still around um you mean wasak right of course yeah uh Tim Cook did a phenomenal job um the company did not implode obviously there's a lot still happening in a in a positive direction like you said the stock price you know I think o over year-over-year is up something like 40% or something like that so is saying 27% in the chat room okay 27% um yeah I mean you can't look at this year and and the successes and the products and say anything other than it was another good year like you can you can argue it wasn't the best year or you can argue where the weaknesses were but the facts are that they sold a metric ton of new products and he had said something a couple weeks ago I forget the exact quote but it was something along the lines of some some really ridiculous percentage whether it was 60 or 80% of their current Revenue was being generated on products that were released in the last six weeks or something like that referring to you know the new phone and the iPad mini and the retina iPad and that's just that's amazing when you think about that like I I don't know a single other company that can put up those kind of numbers in that kind of time yeah cuz I mean like Microsoft makes a ton of their revenue off of office and windows but they don't release those you know once a year certainly not a couple times a year as was the case with the iPad this year right what do you think about that that was interesting too it was the first time that an iOS device made an appearance more than once a year they released the third generation iPad with retina display in March and then they released the fourth generation iPad also M Retina Display but also with lightning connector and international LTE and better cameras uh in October yeah it felt weird at first and uh kind of uncomfortable like you know your first yeah your first time at summer camp where you don't really know what's going on but you know it'll probably be fun so you just go along with it yeah but uh yeah I mean there was the initial holy crap what are they doing and you know does this reset the whole product line and what happens in March now and I mean that that kind of speculation is still going on but the the sentiment was for the iPad mini was you know we've got this thing we wanted to do and here it is and we don't want to wait and for the for the retina iPad update the comment was you know we've got our foot on the gas or something like that we're not letting up and it's both foot on the gas and pedal to the metal it was a double metaphor and it's yeah and it's basically just that it's like we had this stuff ready we're releasing it I don't think I something tells me they wouldn't do more than a a twice yearly bump like that I think people would start to start to clamor a little bit if uh if it came out monthly iPads yeah I think you know that'd be pushing it iPad June iPad July yeah but but they said you know as long when we have stuff ready we're we're bringing it to Market when it's ready it's going to be out there and if that means once a year twice yearly that's seemingly what's going to happen from now on and it you know it begs a lot of questions as to what is going to occur in the spring are there going to be no products is there going to be another rev um you know a lot of people a lot of rumors are going around and there's a lot of stuff that's uh that's circulating to that to that end and I'm I'm just curious to see what what actually happens in the spring and before we get to the spring I just want to back up for one second part of what made it awkward to me is they said all this brewhaha about the new iPad in March they so specifically called it the new iPad everything was the new iPad then in October it was the fourth generation iPad or the iPad with retina display um and that new thing it kind of fell flat when in during in the same year the new iPad was no longer the new iPad I'm not quite sure what was going on with Apple's typically awesome branding engine at that time yeah I know that was the cause of much consternation for people and uh it I feel like it was more of a debate than it needed to be but you're right I mean it it was kind of a strange departure and now they've gone to a more verbose explanatory title for the product which is isn't quite as pleasant to say but it's exactly what you're getting so there's really no misunderstanding it and I think that may be why why they went to that is that they went from one extreme to the other right it was iPad iPad 2 then it was the new iPad which really we know meant iPad third generation and then this is you know iPad with retina display parentheses fourth generation right so new the new iPad was no longer new the retina iPad was one of two retina IP ads it was just it was unclean I think they've gone you know that pendulum is swung back entirely in the other direction and while it is a little bit clumsy there's no mistaking what the product actually is and obviously with the mini I mean it's completely different it's tiny so it's delineated by size yeah all right so I want to get to the mini in a second because you put up a really interesting blog post about that but um you mentioned looking forward to the spring now Apple really has you know Phil Schiller said that about using the word new iPad we wanted to mix things up change expectations we didn't want to be predictable and certainly the fourth generation iPad in the fall wasn't predictable uh does that mean that Apple's going to keep not being predict I mean you can never always be non-predictable because the non-predictable thing becomes predictable but could we see a fall sorry a spring where there's an iPhone 5S where there's an iPad Mini 2 maybe an iPad mini Retina maybe an iPad 5 maybe an iPad 5 with the iPad mini's thinner uh lighter design language I mean how fast can apple go given that within the realm of physics there's only so many changes you can make to a device right I think that I think that as as per Tim's comment that they're going to do this stuff when it's ready and when they feel they want to there's a definite possibility that March could be an entirely new revision for all of all of this Hardware if they if they've got it ready to go I think that there's probably more of a chance for the iPad ads to be updated only because the the phone H still is like tied to the carriers and there's still that notion of contracts despite you know people you know breaking contracts and doing different things I think that the phone annually feels more right feels more natural and I think that it may I mean they could surprise us and totally do this but it might cause issues if if they have that kind of like midyear release for the phone if people just entered new contracts and don't you know don't want to break but Seth Motorola Razor Motorola Razor Max uh HTC 1X 1xs I mean it's it's being done on on the other side of the of the fence yeah yeah it is and I think that part of Apple's um part of Apple's success in the market is really the fact that they don't inundate people with choices they really just have one or two things that you need to make a decision between and I think if they Continue to update things too frequently especially if they keep those products on the market like right now we've got the free iPhone 4 the 4S and the five and that's pretty clean product line for everybody from people who want the latest and greatest people who don't really need the latest and greatest but want a solid device that has you know Siri and stuff like that and then people that want basically the free iPhone like what happens if they release a 5s in March like which which phone goes away does the five go away does the five become the 4S like how does how does the line shift and maybe they don't care and they're just like yep everything gets bumped down and that's that we're all reting it now and now we're going to go you know even more big screens there was three in the bed and the little one said roll over roll over yeah I I can't tell you the last time I actually heard that but uh do you prefer the monkeys jumping on the bed one fell down and bumped his head you're going to be reading all of these to little to little Clifford very soon about that I have I have a little baby now I should really up on this stuff brush up on your Kitty stuff but uh but yeah I mean the product line is is I think a little bit different than with the tablets and um I think it'd be easier for them to rev the iPads and the phones but that you know how the hell would I know maybe they're going to totally blow our doors off you think I think maybe part of the reason for that is to be unpredictable I mean previously we we saw companies program against Apple they knew Apple was in a yearly schedule the iPhone came out every June So at around CES time there would be a Nexus one and all the Geeks would Swoon to that because everyone had had an iPhone for 6 months and it was the new hot thing and it got a lot of attention because it was like the mid-season replacement phone for an iPhone and then it came around 2010 and apple did not release a phone in the summer they waited was it 16 months to release a new phone and people were suddenly we don't know when Apple's releasing now and it came out in the fall and they thought oh you know we're going to another year until the new iPad and boom new iPad comes out roughly six months later I wonder how much of that is just is to show that Apple can do what they want when they want um and they're not going to stick just to a 12- Monon cycle anymore ju I don't know I don't want to say the f- word on a Christmas show but just to mess with people no I think there's that there may be an element of that to it in that there is a certain predictability to their product release cycles and to a lot of observers that seems to border on stagnation like oh it's always going to be this one thing and then of course there's the the the title wave of uh underwhelm that follows when when it doesn't completely rip holes in the universe for you know we read the spoilers and we get upset that we know what's GNA happen exactly so I think part of it may be just to throw people curveballs and say like well guess what here's another phone here's another tablet what what now you know yeah I I don't know I mean maybe they do maybe they maybe they are adopting a more aggressive Market strategy for multiple reasons one is let's just keep doing the latest and greatest so that we can complete we can continue to run laps around people you know and the other one is we're not we're not going to let people game plan US based on you know our previous calendar we're we're going to completely do stuff when we want to do it which is kind of what they did you know pulling out a Mac world and doing their own events and stuff like that like equalent of a Crazy Ivan yeah they want to control everything from the news cycle to people's expectations to you know the market and at top to bottom they they want it all so maybe we will see phones more frequently which is going to be tough for a lot of people who you know maybe out of contract maybe renewed a contract and and didn't get an upgrade why this the thing I don't understand I'm a gadget lover a new thing comes out I want to buy it but I'm not angry at Apple for putting it out it seems like they can't win if Apple Waits a year oh they're slow they're stagnating they're not keeping up Samsung's putting out all these devices Apple's a failure if they dare to put out something that's under a year like the IP Apple's screwing me I just bought that one apple doesn't care about me it's it's like they're a jerk if they do and a jerk if they don't well yeah some people definitely see it that way I wasn't inferring that people would be angry of course they will be it's like Tim Cook comes to their house and breaks their iPad right in front of them I know some some seg of the population will always be angry at that because there's a certain there has been a certain reliability to those purchases and if that becomes upset then uh then they don't really know how to handle that I was thinking more just in terms of like somebody like me financially who really probably can do the upgrade but it's like oh man like I wasn't planning on it and that you know okay you know you got me need to have here's my baby food money there you go and I mean somebody in my position I really can't fuss too much because I can say things like I need to have it and the truth of the matter is I don't really need to have it but at the same time it's like we get you know when new things come out the the first thing out of our client's mouths is like so do you have the new thing yet can we can we support the new thing can we do this we're kind of your clients's not Microsoft I get it well like my my father he just upgraded from an iPhone 4 to an iPhone 5 he didn't buy an iPhone 4S had no interest in it then he called me I got an iPhone 5 how do I use a Siri thing my sister just upgraded from an iPhone 3 G has to an iPhone 4 she had she has no interest whenever whenever she needs to upgrade she'll get whatever she can get low price and she does she doesn't need anything more so I just wonder for how many for for every one of us I wonder how many normal people just don't even think about stuff like this oh AB tons I mean tons some a lot of people are still looking at a free iPhone 4 as like well why why would I pay any money at all I can get this this iPhone it's free it looks like the other one why would I even buy you notice that have you gone back and picked up your iPhone 4 or iPhone 4S lately I cannot believe I thought the iPhone 5 looked unnaturally tall and gangly like a lanky you know pubescent child at a certain point and then I went to do some work on my iPhone 4S yesterday and it was like an iPhone Mini it was it was stunted I can't believe how short the screen is I know even after like a week of using the five I went back to the 4S because I uh I unlocked the two that we had so we can take them overseas the next time we travel um since we left AT&T and you're allowed to do that and just even holding it and walking through the settings to like you know make sure that that went through I was like God this thing is so Squat and heavy and so few icons on the home screen like a fat Nano it's weird it really really is it's it's just getting back to Tim Cook for a second I mean he he isn't Steve Jobs nothing could be clear that he is not Steve Jobs but it seems like he has a love for apple and a love for product even though he's not a product guy he did an interview on NBC he had an interview in Bloomberg business week uh there were both very similar he very much stayed on message he he did a performance it wasn't anything off the cuffer candid but it came through that he even though he's not Steve Jobs he has a lot of the same core values and the management Shuffle that he did I think was one of the biggest things this year because he took out the guy who was in char charge of iOS who brought us iOS who who championed having OS 10 essentially having BSD Linux BSD Unix on a phone who championed having apps if not for Scott forall we could be running a Linux iPod phone or whatever the P I forget the name of the OS on the iPod right now Pico yeah a Pico phone with absolutely no apps uh and Tim Cook basically put a bullet in him for the greater good of apple he he smoothed things out he focused on people who could play nicely together uh Johnny I Bob Mansfield Eddie Q um what was uh Air Force One's real name I I'm I'm blanking on that now too federi yeah Craig federi and he basically did to Apple's management what Steve Jobs did when he came back to Apple and said desktop laptop uh Pro and consumer he now has Services technology design and uh software yeah it it was kind of a it was kind of an interesting move I guess a lot of people looked at it and said forol has to answer for maps and Siri but I mean that's that is by far not the whole story right I mean the guy's been there for what since next yeah like a a really long time so his issues whatever they may be with you know the other Executives and the people within the company far out way what what the public saw with Syrian Maps now that could be you know a permutation of those issues that those things came out the way that they did and kind of faltered a little bit and you know truthfully I've had plenty to say about Siri and I haven't had too many problems with maps although obviously a lot of people have the fact that he was so I don't know would it be ceremoniously or unceremoniously the way that he was he was gone yeah he was it was interesting and and he didn't he cook did not take power in fire forall it was roughly a year later that they reor and one of the other interesting things was uh John bowt am I saying that right bowet I think it was brow bowet something like that yeah who they brought in from a discount UK retailer whom every whom everyone uh the minute he was announced said was a really poor idea for um apple and he proceeded to do things that really doesn't seem to be in the best interest of Apple retail and they subsequent fired him and that was interesting because he was hired and fired under Tim Cook this wasn't Tim Cook changing Steve Jobs executive team so was Tim Cook starting to create his own faltering and fixing it right but yeah he was he was there saying Oscar f00 was saying it's brow yeah that was yeah that was a more interesting um selection and you know obviously the results speak for themselves but that guy came in under Tim Tim selected him and a lot of people like you said at the time were like this guy's not right even casual observers of the company that you know probably were able to discern that um and then yeah like with forall he's out but what was so shocking is that whereas forall you know had whatever issues he had internally and then kind of manifested in what we saw in iOS whether we liked it or didn't like it um brow it was brought in obviously on the heels of Ron Johnson leaving and going to JC Penney to kind of like steer that ship the retail ship and things that we heard were just bizarrely disconcerting like he wanted to cut people's hours and save you know money by not having as many people on the floor and like Penny wise and pound foolish like it's it was all completely counterintuitive to like all of the things that made the Apple Store a terrific retail experience to begin with that people un like there's a reason that there are often more staff members than people in the store like that's why it's good that's how it works and like just the fact that he wanted to like change all these things to Save A Buck like I get it that some people are driven by like you know margins and columns and spreadsheets and stuff but like that's not the place to do it like there's plenty of other places in the company to Save A Buck but don't do it there because that's that is the public but didn't cook know that going in I mean based on this man you it's like you hired the guy to come in and gut the place and then he started gutting the place people like oh my God he's gutting the place and you fire him it's like he knew what he was when he picked him up yeah I know that's that's what's so weird about it is that he he was basically like you like you said he was a UK retail guy like there was nothing specifically tuned to Apple about him I guess he was just successful in his previous his previous position and so that made him appealing to cook I I don't I don't know why he was select well like do we know where there other people in the running for that position yeah I don't know but there were always these rumors that cook and um Oppenheimer wanted a leaner meaner retail operation and I don't know if he came in test piloted some projects that was an utter failure and it was quickly disposed of you know almost like you you bring in you bring in that guy to do that thing like the I what's his name tore on The Simpsons like as long as tore is there Homer doesn't get fired and you let him kind of do his work and if it doesn't work out you know he's out as fast as he was in yep pilot test guy I I don't know that that whole the whole brow it retail thing never never sat well with me and I was relieved to hear that he was on his way out because I I personally did not want the Apple Stores to change and I thought that's that's the last place that they should change that is like that the the retail experience that Apple provides is basically the like it is textbook where people said oh this is the worst idea you ever and then it was completely the best idea they ever had and like proved everybody everybody wrong so like don't don't mess with a good thing ever when it stop when it stops working then you can Tinker yeah you you brought in an oasis and now you're putting up a fast food restaurant stop it yeah so uh you mentioned some of the other brewhaha maps I mean I much to some people's consternation in New Jersey was included uh but other people said that the points of interest were lacking the turn-by-turn directions were inaccurate um the that that Apple there's a huge project when you do maps you have to aggregate data from tons of sources you have to cleanse that data you have to sanitize it you have to you know some phone numbers might have dashes some might have dots some might be alt together some might have Spa spaces in between you there might be multiple listings for the same place it might be County names and city names and local names that are all similar and we know that people like Nokia and Google put feet on the pavement to go and visually inspect and check these things especially when it's high value things like hospitals or or or places where it's really important to get it right and Apple has not had time to do that and they seem to have floundered in taking the data that they did license from TomTom and other sources and putting it into a consistent reliable form um there's all these things that Apple shouldn't have released it but Apple did release it they're working on it is is this the big deal that people made it out to be and is it something fixable and if it's not how big a problem is that easy questions right I think it it is and isn't the problem that they made it out to be I think now we'll we'll expound on these it is and isn't a problem it can be fixed and you know what that looks like is actually going to depend on who kind of decides to steer that ship I think it is a problem because map data is something that you really can't mess around with especially when you're talking about things like finding hospitals and stuff like that I mean that's that is a that is a data stream that people have come to rely on just like their Cellular Connection for voice and for data in and of itself that's just something that you know the fact that the Google contract expired and was chosen not to be renewed and apple said that's okay we're going to do our own thing like Maps should not it feels like a beta and it shouldn't be a beta you know like Siri can be a beta because Siri is it's a selling feature it's cool it's fun it's like a new interface but you you can absolutely use every other part of the phone and never touch so you can turn Siri off if you want to but I think that the way people have come to rely on mobile map data kind of giving them a subpart product and then saying like isn't it beautiful look at fly over it's the greatest and it's like that doesn't help anybody ever no one ever said God could Superman Seth I could not have done this without fly over Superman says that flyover has saved him a good 0.2 seconds when catching lowest from falling helicopters right now I I would he's probably the only person that I would buy so Google the contract was expiring I think they had six months left on it so it would expire midterm it would not expire during an OS update cycle it expire in the middle of it uh Apple reportedly wanted turn-by-turn navigation which Google provides for free on Android and Google would only provide it if so they also wanted Vector tiles and Google would only provide them if again reportedly Apple also took latitude and more onerous location Det protection stuff that Google wants cuz that's how they make money uh we're their products they want our data um so they were at an impass and the Apple Maps app just simply could not move forward so it's I forget what the technical term is but you have two bad options and Apple's bad options were to persist with a crappy Maps app or that would stay crappy for the foreseeable future or to make their own Maps app which would see and I know they didn't think it was going to be crappy they thought that they would be able to make a good map sa but reality was they could not make a good maps app in time but maybe they will in a future yeah and and they they can they can still fix this but I think the biggest part of the problem was that it was positioned as a fully finished full featured product and that how it was presented to people and that's what people thought they were getting if if they had come out and said this is a a Herculean job that we're taking on and we realize it's not it's not great just yet but it's going to be great and it's pretty good right now and we're really proud of it and we're really happy you think we we think you'll like it anyway if they had just positioned it as such I don't yeah I don't think there would be quite the backlash because people would say the way that we're saying oh you know what map dat is a tough nut to crack instead of saying and they screwed it up we would be saying so we're going to give them a break on on this you know the iOS 6 release of maps and it'll probably be Rock Solid and seven it can be fixed it's not outside of the realm of possibility but the perception can't be fixed because they introduced it as a finished polish black eye and it's not it absolutely isn't uh Jade wild sta is saying that there's no turn by turn still in Australia and some people in the chat room are saying that that they forced Google this was you know this is a theory that that started that apple apple was brilliant they tricked Google into making Google Maps for IOS as far as I know that's absolutely not true Apple thought that they would be able to make a fantastic Maps app and kick Google off their phone the last thing they want they iOS 6 was in large part in order to remove Google in their data hooks from the iPhone the last thing Apple wanted is for people to flock back to a Google map and restore and even give more information uh to Google Google makes far more money on iOS than they make on Android uh iOS data is incredibly valuable to uh Google who is a competitor of apples and no one likes to be uh an asset for their competitor so uh in no way did Apple foresee this to be the reality of the situation they thought they were going to make a kickass Maps app right and I mean truth of the matter is is that when Maps does work properly it is a very nice app I mean the the vector Maps look great I personally you know I haven't really had any problems with it I don't rely on it every day I use it maybe once a month to go somewhere and the couple of times I've used it it's been okay it hasn't been a problem for me it's I I like it because I haven't had an issue and I think it's way more attractive than the other Maps you know and obviously the perform us large US cities it works very well and the further you get away from large city in us the more it degrades right yeah I've seen some ridiculous pictures from people around the world where like it basically looks like a an an EMP went off in their in their yard but I mean no one's perfect for I don't know why but for the last six months both navigon and Google have decided that I need to drive loops around neighborhoods to go like there'll be a straight line road and I'll be told to turn left turn left turn left turn left and then go straight I I don't know who did that they thought it was a joke maybe it's Steven colar I'm not sure uh but someone at some point you know has some some faulty and this happens with every Maps app I think Google's reliability right now I think they probably have the best data in the world maybe Nokia is you know in that race too TomTom somewhere there as well but no one is providing me perfect directions yet I know and and the worst part is that I wish that something like what is it open street map is that the first one I wish that all of these companies could come together and pull their data and license it the way that patents you know like like the MP3 Consortium and stuff like that initially because that you know the MP3 became a standard for that reason there were a bunch of companies that got together and said hey this is this is a direction we want to go in here's the format that we're going to use like how great would it be for that to happen for map data like consumers would absolutely win them because you would be able to collate all that data and always have the best data no matter no matter where you are there never compete on interface right yeah absolutely I mean interface add-ons all there's so many other layers you can apply if the map data is right from the start and I feel like we're still fighting a battle that should be over uh yeah no that's absolutely true and sakra was just talking about MP3s piracy and iTunes and that reminded me that iTunes 11 it was announced along with the iPhone 5 and the new iPods it was delayed by a month and then it was released it was said to be an allnew version of iTunes certainly it looks like an allnew version of iTunes we've spoken briefly about it on iterates Seth but you you have told me privately that you don't think it's gotten anywhere near the lashing that it deserves yeah I okay so you know it works right you open it up and it plays your music it starts the app starts right the app starts and it works but a lot of people have said I'm certainly not the first nor the only one that Apple has started to really drag its feet fall down however you want to put it when it comes to their software experience expences right like there are a lot of gaps and a lot of questionable choices that they're making now that maybe 5 years ago would would not have even crossed the mind of developers that that was acceptable and one of the things that I think people like about Apple is that there is a a consistency among the apps like ioto and iMovie used to feel like two parts of the same puzzle and iTunes kind of fit into that and all the all the different pieces plug in together and I feel like this latest iteration of iTunes is so far a field of What Not not like what people are expecting but what a direction that they should be going in to like kind of unify the interface and I know the argument would be made oh but they are because it looks more like you know the iPad I you know music app there are so many things about it because it is an app a legacy app that has been uh built on and things have been bolted into it and new functionality has been you know drilled into its foundation it needs to be killed summarily killed put out Woodshed and shot upside down and the Earth has to be salted above it it needs yeah and it needs to start again like there is there's no fixing it at this point and and you could go in any direction you want whether it's functionally uh you know if you right click on something there's one menu if you click on an arrow there's a different menu with some of the same things but not some of the other ones you want to talk the interface I mean it's baffling to me some of the choices that they've made made just looking at the main window like the the default views and you know the the width of certain things and the placement of certain buttons it's a train wreck it's an absolute train wreck and yeah again you turn it on it plays your music it's fine but in term if you're really going to deconstruct it and think about it in terms of like what should Apple be doing where should this be going since iTunes is such a a flagship thing for them like probably the the biggest consumer app that they have it's not it's not good it just isn't sock ret is arguing that it's an intermediary step that is it's as far as Apple could get done in time and that there will be another version that takes it the next step he's also saying oh God Seth oh God it's not all that bad no and I know and I'm fired up mostly because we've talked about it for three weeks and said like oh let's do a show where we talk about it and then we just haven't it does have popover on top like like what do you call it nested compounded popovers which can never be good yeah um you know honestly I'm sure if we had Mark here he would be able to to talk about this in much more lucid and Technical manner with that with that dreamy accent but it just uh it's not it's not a good app it just isn't it's functional and it does what it's supposed to do most of the time but it's not a good app don't don't tell me it's a good app no it's a severely I mean it is by design a severely compromised app it was originally a music was it sound Jam soundbox something like that it was originally a sound a music playing app and apple is bolted on and added to and built upon and it serves Too Many Masters it is an app of all trades and a good one at none and it's also the only one of the only apps Apple has to wrap up try to figure out how to get core animation Core Audio core video everything like that and Port it over to Windows uh which is probably why it's still a monolithic mess of a Monster app in many ways um is it better than it was in the previous version I I don't know I understood it I understood what it was I don't know what it is I just hope that I will like where it eventually gets to yeah I mean at its core it's a big database app when you think about it it's just here are the things here are the records that I need to display not records like albums like you know line records information if you think about it in terms of that like these are the files and these are the things that I need to point to the further away it gets from that without kind of starting over the more complicated the interface becomes and like my big concern is like figure it out I'm fine with it like I I'm pretty much used to it already as much as I don't like it but like the I've put a lot of faith into it and I have a lot of files in iTunes at home especially like on the Mac Mini Server that thing has everything in iTunes because we have the Apple TV upstairs how the the minute that causes me to doubt like things are breaking or like I'm losing files or something happens like that's it for me like I don't know what I'm going to do but it like that's that as long as it Remains the hub for all of these things I'm always going to have this like fear and this little bit of doubt that like something's going to break it's not going to work the way I needed to because it continues to become more complicated and I'm not saying it's an easy job to fix it but it it has to be done at some point they've got to either strip it completely back or they have to decouple all of these things that are that are combined in it and give people dedicated apps as much as that sucks like you've got an app store on the iPhone and you have iTunes on the iPhone like we need to break those things out like it needs to be that makes it harder to P I mean Mech 1164 is saying that it's still lipstick on a pig and I think that's what's unusual because you know with iMovie Apple scrapped the old app started over and then has slowly been Resto restoring functionality with Final Cut Pro 10 the same thing happened arguably with maps the same thing is happening this is not that they did not scrap iTunes 10 start over with a completely new app and have to start adding back functionality they kept the same app and skinned it so it has all the function functionality but it's differently usable and that's not something I'm used to seeing from Apple I'm not used to seeing uh to put it in battar Galactica parlons skin jobs yeah we could we could go on all night about this but uh like I said it's functional but it's not nice yeah you use it because you have to not because you want to right uh yeah no that's absolutely true uh we touched on it briefly but the iPad 4 is now the only iPad uh in the 2012 lineup that doesn't have Apple's new design language it doesn't have the anodized back plate the the wrer angled curves um it doesn't have the thinner design that's about the only big change I can see them doing next year but do you think that that it's missing that is it the odd man out is it a strange sort of outof time device now uh I think it is for a little while just just because you know everything is moving on to that new design language and it kind of does stick out now but at the same time it's like it's very familiar and I don't think people were expecting it like regular people aren't really expecting that to change I think when they go in they're they're looking for it and they're recognizing it and being like okay that's that's the iPad and then there's the mini and like okay that's the mini that's different and it kind of looks like the phone but not exactly I I would be shocked if the next version of the larger iPad didn't follow that same you know anodized back plate looking feel and I think that when that happens they're going to be really really nice devices and I'm going to probably want to play with them but uh see now you know where I'm leading you with this because you originally were not we had very similar experiences with the iPad Mini we both when we heard it was not going to be retina we were both trepidacious because our uh gentle soft um pupils cannot handle the Sandpaper that our standard definition pixels we've grown up on the iPhone 4 4s uh the retina iPad and we didn't want to go back uh now we both bought it when it came out you tried it for a couple days I was forced to use it for over a week to write a review I'm going to let you go first though Seth because I think your story is much more interesting well I mean for for people that come to the live shows or have listened into the podcast The Story Goes Like This Renee and I basically took opposite sides when it came to what do we think the iPad Mini is really all about but how long had you used it for at that point uh I I got it you know as soon as it came out and I basically loaded all my stuff on it use it for about an hour or two and was like not for me yeah not not my thing and I was forced to use it for a week because I had to write a review about it like a 10,000w review or something insane and and I think that the the the time afforded the device definitely changes your perception of it which I did not realize I kind of went with a very quick gut judgment like yeah I'm looking at this it's not what I want uh it's it's not it's not my eyes my eyes yeah I mean honestly it wasn't it wasn't so much the retina or the non-retina rather that was the the stopping point it was more the visual elements at that point when the mini came out admittedly I was was using my larger iPad a lot like just prior to that I was using it a lot so I was used to seeing things at a certain size and uh when I saw the mini everything felt too crowded too compressed the banner notifications were hard to read like everything was just not the way that I needed it to be I felt like they compromised and that they really did just kind of cram it into the display without you know treating those little elements in their own way and what ended up happening was I just was like yeah it's not for me put it in the test pool at work and that was that and so I didn't think about it and then I started thinking about it and I realized that I wasn't using my iPad at all and I have you know the Kindle Fire I bought the HD after having the one last year just because I I still I still think it's a kind of cool device I like you know Amazon stuff and I like to play and comparing Mist I understand I accept that totally fine well truth be told the screen on the HD is actually really nice and it's a really nice device for reading and and panzino agrees with me so there um but basically I kept thinking about it and everybody that I knew everybody I talked to was like oh yeah the mini I don't even touch the big one anymore it's great Justin got one our CFO got one and every single person was like saying the same thing and I started to feel like I was going crazy like did I miss something did I did I not do did I not give it you know due diligence and so I finally buckled and ordered one and it it arrived and I was like okay I feel good that I made the decision to do this and then I started using it and like put you know put the big one away started using the little one and something weird happened and the weird thing that happened your heart grew two sizes that day that's exactly I am completely completely Head Over Heels like stupid crazy teenage in love with it now and I don't I don't understand it it doesn't even make sense to me but I I can't put it down and it really I think it is if you just break that like maybe it's a two-day barrier where you stop noticing the things you don't like comes the device that you always really wanted because it is a fantastic size and weight and then you stop seeing the things that you don't like and you're like well look at all the things I can do I can I take it from room to room I always have it with me I can hold the baby and still hold it it's not ridiculous like I have it in bed it's comfortable to read with I can you know have it on my lap it's like there's nothing there it's a fantastic device and I just I I don't know why I was so against it I really don't and you know what I'm the first person to say hey you know what I was wrong about that I have no problem going back on my word and eating my words or whatever expression you want to use I I have no problem with it and in this case nothing nothing could be more true I I totally blew it by not giving it a a fair Shake HUD halor yeah it is a Christmas miracle it's know I mean I had the same reaction at first I was like oh I felt like I was going back in time I thought I was taking a step back I had a retina iPad 3 the the retina iPad 4 arrived the same day as the iPad Mini so I had both and I was looking at it and one was one of the best displays I'd ever seen and the other looked like my iPhone 3GS but bigger um and I didn't I didn't think I'd like it but one of the primary things I use with my iPad is a mobile hotspot whenever I'm out I have an iPad with me and I tether to that because I don't want to run down the battery on my phone and if I have to edit the site while I'm out um truple does not play nicely on a small iPad screen so I a small iPhone screen so I use the iPad and everything that the most important things to me ended up being the things that the iPad Mini were really good at it's it the battery life is as long as the iPad 4 the everything about it is as good but be it just feels lighter faster it feels all those things and it's it's difficult to explain but as I used it I just came to enjoy it more and more I don't want to say it's the iPad as it was meant to be because I always have a MacBook with me and if I don't have a MacBook with me I would rather use the iPad 4 for typing for for doing a lot of productivity work but since I always have that I that MacBook with me the iPad Mini becomes just the best possible iPad for me yeah I mean my my arguments when we talked about it were I like the bigger screen on the you know the larger iPad because I do a lot of writing on there I do you know Garage Band stuff I do play with music apps I do stuff like that and what I came to realize is that I wasn't using the larger iPad it was just sitting there and so these theoretical arguments as to why the larger screen made more sense were great but I wasn't even putting them into practice and you know I was using my phone a lot but I was thinking I had post ideas or things I wanted to write and I was like I don't feel like picking it up and one of the things I really like is the Logitech ultra thin keyboard I've I've really grown to enjoy using that and you know it doesn't fit great with the with the mini but I was you know with the smart cover I kind of like folded it back and parked it on top and I was like okay this is this is good enough and it you know I wrote a thousand words on it yesterday morning without an issue and and proof read and posted from there and was just like holy crap I yeah this is it like I don't even need to debate it anymore yeah it really does sort of grow on you like you have to give it a chance because Apple basically had it could have two of three things it could have the 10-hour battery life it could have uh the thinness and lightness or it could have a retina display and a retina iPad with you know three or four hours of battery life is a non-starter uh a retina iPad that's as thick as an iPad 4 if not thicker is a non-starter uh so they they chose what ended up being the same compromise that was good for me was yes the screen's not retina but everything else about it is topof the line um it's it's it really is one of the most beautiful Best Built devices they've ever made made um so going back to what led me into this discussion Seth if come March we get a iPad 5 that has the same design language that's thinner and lighter like an iPad mini and maybe let's just say for the sake of argument we get an iPad Mini with a retina display that's as dense um as an iPhone 5 which device would then be for you um if you have you know much closer cap capabilities in both I think honestly if if we had that choice you know the the larger iPad with the retina screen and the body and then the smaller iPad obviously with much less weight and a retina screen I think I'd probably go with the mini again because now that I've had it now that I've seen that you know it is a very able device I think that I really do like that better I think it is far more port it's it's the kind of thing that like I used to feel kind of lame dragging my iPad into a meeting to like take notes or something Hey look it's iPad guy how you do an iPad guy take some notes on your iPad iPad guy did you start to feel like oh look it's the guy taking notes on his okay great we get like your iPad but like this thing like it's like a little book and you kind of just flip it out and it's there and then it's gone and it's so small and it's so thin I I think that that size is is really the one that I wanted soft cover compared to the hard cover of the IP of the big iPad yeah I think it's just a much more humanized device and that you know there'll be plenty of people who say the bigger one is always GNA be better there are people are asking for Mark want's a 21 inch my bad I know he does but uh for like day-to-day take it around with you kind of use cases I don't think you can beat this this size I think it's just the best yeah you know what's odd for me is that uh when you know Apple has done different Siz products of similar capabilities previously they have the MacBook Air 11 inch and the MacBook Air 13inch and yes the 13 in is slightly more powerful it's got more pixels yada y y but they're very similar machines and I know a lot of bloggers went Georgia loves the 11-inch MacBook Air she wants the smallest easiest to carry around MacBook possible and I went for the 11in because I wanted the extra pixels the vertical pixel height because I do development some web stuff I do design stuff do Photoshop that was important to me and now I've switched to a retina MacBook Pro 15in and I was willing to give up size and portability and all those things to have those retinas and those pixels but because I have that device I think I would skew towards the iPad Mini as well because um it's like I want the the highest high-end I can have and then the lowest low end is fine I don't that then I'm covering the range of my needs yeah we all have 15inch um MacBook Pros at the office non- retina because your eyes well see I was just saying this this I think it was jbab online today I don't have a problem with the non-retina display on the laptop because I use it at a distance and I I've been using laptops for so long that it's just that's that's how I expect it to be once I saw the retina display on a mobile device it was like you know the world changed forever but I've seen the retina Mac like Morpheus had awakened you in The Matrix no it really was and I I've seen it I've used it it's an amazing device it's gorgeous but I I don't need retina there like I'm not doing the kind of work where that kind of screen is going to be a huge benefit to me just don't look at one for too long Seth because you'll come on the show and go damn it I those thing you know listen the the iPad Mini that you know like buying that on a whim and saying like oh I need to have this it's a lot different than a $2,300 laptop absolutely that's like isn't that entry level price isn't it like 22 to get in the door and then if you really want it to be good it's it's it goes from unseemly to ungodly very quickly on the price scale so I I thought about it I I will be getting probably an air before I get that because I I feel like a d let's not even go dare let not even I feel like portability and and the ability to use my tools when and where I want them is more valuable to me now and that's something that I that I came to realize with the min is that I'd rather have this thing with me and and when I have the idea to write whip it out and write it and just be done and be like great and then fold it up and put it away as opposed to oh I've got this idea let me leave myself a reminder that I want to write about it later and then really never get back to that that idea because I don't I'm not in that moment you know like that's that's where the mini made a difference for me it was like if I've got it I'm going to use it and if I use it I'm going to do the things that I think I want to do when I want to do them as opposed to sometime later when I'm probably going to forget and so the the retina display is not the deal breaker for me on the laptop I think that I do need a a bigger screen I need a 15inch screen because I when I do work I do need a little bit extra space to kind of move things around so were there a 15inch air I think that would be my computer no matter what retina or not it's amazing how um and it sounds silly because these are these are premium luxury items but there are always compromises you can't have everything it's not you know Apple doesn't offer every model they don't make every screen size at every half inch increment but also there are physics the laws of physics the laws of economics and apple just can't make everything yet uh and we still have to decide between you know the portability of an air and the power of a pro uh the smallness and the sleekness of an iPad mini and the power of a full-size iPad uh the cheapness of an iPhone 4 versus the you know I don't even notice the awesome quality of an iPhone 5 and all of these you can't have everything you just got to make the the best choice that you can with the money um and the time that you have yeah I I I think the the lesson that I am taking away from the mini experiment is is as I said I'd rather have the tool I want to use with me than the the the theoretical best tool for the things that I want to do you know the the retina iPad is better in so many ways and the retina MacBook is better in so many ways but when I want to sit down and work or when I want to write when I want to do something I want to just do it and for me right now the stuff that I'm doing if I'm really honest with myself the mini is a better tool because I'm gonna have it with me I'm GNA use it as opposed to oh well it's nice but you know yeah no I absolutely agree with you uh so let's just wrap this up with um what do you want to see from Apple in 2013 Seth what is your if if you were the secret power behind the throne at Apple what would you be having them do in 2013 fix their web services I honestly isn't isn't isn't this the the the the in the armor for them like they have the really nice Hardware they've got the nice software integration but the missing link for all of this stuff is is iCloud and reliability and stuff like that like I I still don't feel like they've they've got that ironed out I think Hardware they can continue to iterate and roll out nicer lighter better versions of what we have currently in our hands for the next two years but what they need to do is they need to take all the things that they're promising all the magic of iCloud and make it work every single solitary time and make it so stupidly easy to use that you know I don't even have to to consider where my data is or what I'm doing because that's really the promise of iCloud but if you even stop to think about what's happening you know behind the scenes and how the gears are turning anybody who actually understands computers it runs in the other direction yeah I mean and that is a non-trivial thing to fix I I wrote an article about that a while ago and I joked that it's much easier for Google to buy designers and developers than for Apple to do a mock funeral for web objects and come out with a modern lightweight powerful highly scalable you know incredibly powerful web framework but it's not really a joke that is really a a tough problem and I hope they do invest cons I me it's hard to get the talent it's hard to to get the it's hard to get the scale that the Facebooks and the um Googles and the Amazon have done and you don't get it by buying Twitter that you that that's just silly but they do they do urgently um need to address that because if Lauren Brier can put out a game and tear down your social gaming Network in a fortnite then you have a severe problem yeah I mean forgive me for making it sound trivial it's not it's a it's an enormous problem and it's a huge engineering issue that they can solve because if anybody has the money to hire the right people it's it's apple right I mean they they' they've got the ability to do that but I think it needs to become a focal point because as they continue to extend these platforms and yet connect them all back together that's going to be the thing that holds it in place and until that stuff is like absolutely Rock Solid reliable there's always going to be these little points of like falling down where it doesn't quite form the way people are expecting and as soon as your expectations are not met as a user you start to just not be as happy and what about Johnny IV and redesigning I mean we we hear people say I I just miss this usually when someone says iOS is boring because it's not the job in operating system to entertain you that's why you Apple wants you to move from icons into Apps and stay in apps um but you know a lot of people Steve kovak from Business Insider said he's replaced every default Apple app with the Google equivalent the Gmail app the Google Maps app you know G+ there's an argument to be made that one of the best Google phones on the planet right now isn't an Android device but it's an Apple device and that's Apple's competitor having a huge footprint once again on their phone and this time one apple doesn't control um does Apple have to do remarkable and amazing things in iOS 7 um I mean what can they do they're not going to do stuff in iOS 7 aluminum a new theme it's called aluminum they're not going to do stuff inside of a year in iOS 7 that is going to change someone's mind who's heavily invested in Google services and sees that Google Apps hang together a lot better than Apple apps do right that's there's just not enough time to do that before the next the next software release I think what they what they can do is look at how Google is doing stuff and say oh wow you know what all this company that we can't stand has all these disperate apps that work work better in tandem than our you know purported apps should work together and you know what's the lesson that we can take away from it I don't think there's anything they can do to fix it or to change the minds of people who are just you know in that ecosystem but I think there's a lot of lessons to take away from how Google is doing stuff to make their own stuff work better I I think that's super important Kenneth uh Joseph K in the hope I said that right in the chat room is saying swipe to dismiss notification you can already do that swipe slightly downwards swipe to the right the notification is gone swipe the switch between apps you can do that already on the iPad but not the iPhone just multitask forcing your swipe between apps um but you see what I what I want is like I have a Nexus 4 now I've been using a Nexus 4 for the last couple days and I'm have a thread about it in the Android Central forums um and for everything I like better about it there's something I like worse it's it's still people say that they're you know they're outpacing Apple but in many ways like the interface still drives me out of my mind and the idea of widgets is still Stupify to me and this is something I hope you know Google's starting to address that with actionable notifications and that's what I want I I don't need to go to the data anymore I'm busy doing things I want the data to come to me I want I like that Siri presents wedge widgets I like that notification center presents widgets I like that Google like web OS did has actual notifications but that's what I want I want everything coming to me now I don't want to have to go looking for things anymore and I certainly don't want to hang out on a home screen like it's a playground and just glance at all data things as I swipe around no I totally agree with you I I mean that's that's one of the things that probably we as you know quote unquote power users would want to see more than anything is is enhance the way that the data is actually presented to us make it more efficient but you know we always keep coming back to this where we are no longer the target market for these devices we never were they were never for geeks no certainly not Android was for geeks but I has always been for my mom and my sister yeah and as as reductive as that sounds it's a really tough thing to do to satisfy all of these different types of users with with one single device and I feel like they're kind of getting there you know stuff like notification center definitely is a nod to that like hey we realize that people who need more actually do need more and and we're we're trying to help you know help that process along let me ask you this I am the only one there are five iPhone owners in my family I am the only one that uses notification center that uses a fast app switcher um that uses any of the features that are more disguised and for as much talk as the inter internet makes about you know Apple should let us set our own default so I can have Chrome is my browser and Google Maps my maps this is something that would never occur to any of those people in my family and I know you have other people around you with iPhones is are these issues with IOS as as big in the mainstream as we make them out to be in the tech press no certainly not we we live in a microcosm of hyperfocus on things that most normal people could not possibly care any less about it's it's ludicrous to think that the things that we choose to focus on would ever even cross the desk of a lot of the people at Apple because it's there are such edge cases that we make into much larger things but that's not to say that they're not important and that's not to say that they're not going to be valuable someday it's list below copy and paste sorry jaw's jaw's list below copy and paste just really really really far ahead of you know where the device needs to be we we're we're where we want it to be but it's it's not where it needs to be and like I said there's there's value in that and because you know looking at where the OS is now as to where it started obviously a lot of the stuff that we asked for that's the stuff that I used to jailbreak for that I said oh I will never not jailbreak a phone you know I don't jailbreak anymore because I don't hear people talking about it as much anymore yeah I mean that could just be you know a technical reasons or it's harder or there's not a great public solution I don't need to do it because the things that I used to jailbreak for that I needed to speed up my phone to to be productive they're they're pretty much there except for bite SMS I have everything I needed let's not even get into that that's a still angry about B SMS getting there the OS the OS grows every year the OS adds things you know like I I still forget that like when someone's calling you you can swipe up and do the quick reply with a message and stuff like like I I loved that when it came out I still not even using this built-in features anymore that's what I mean like there there are little bits of complexity that I still enjoy that that most people don't even know about so I feel like there are there are still places for the OS to go that will please us greatly and and still be usable to people but they are going to be hidden they are not going to be tent poles there are going to be things that we are happy with that are there but there things that normal people won't even care about so I I guess the LA the very last thing is the competitive landscape we already we've talked about Apple and Android and there'll certainly be uh there'll certainly be a Galaxy S4 next year and then HTC 4K phone or whatever the hell they're making uh but there also might be new things there might be an Amazon Kindle phone for the first time uh Mark Zuckerberg and Company are as far as I know still working on a Facebook phone they just launched a poke app so that they will have a built-in sexting client when this phone launches uh there will be a large variety of in of very talented other companies maybe getting into the phone game already beginning in the tablet game where do you see apple stacking up with these I think that apple and the iPhone are pretty pretty well entrenched in in the consumer mind space so much so that while there may be a Facebook phone there may be an Amazon phone I don't think I mean they may be successful I'm not going to say you know oh they're not even gonna have a chance I think they will pay you a hundred bucks to take an Amazon phone because they'll make it up on movies right I mean people will buy them you know I bought the Kindle Fires because I was curious and you know I still think for certain use cases they're okay devices people will buy them you know those phones will sell they won't sell as many as the iPhones they won't sell as many as Android in aggregate but there's I mean mobile is as big as mobile is we are looking at like the tip of the iceberg this is the the the future without being you know resorting to hyperbole Seth Google is making an X Phone with Motorola to compete against both Apple and Samsung because Samsung is now competition to Google well if you look at it on on that level of like let's let's talk you know real economic you know shifting and markets and and all that and the acquis positions and really get nerdy yeah we we could we could completely lose ourselves you asked me where does Apple fit into all this I think they fit in exactly where they've been fitting in in that they have an incredibly strong brand people know it people like it they continue to sell millions upon Millions every single phone they release sells more than the previous phone I don't think they have anything to worry about I think the market is big enough to support other stuff but I don't think there's going to be anything that's going to supplant the iPhone in consumer Minds in the near future despite all the crazy analysts this year like every year telling us that Apple has peaked that Apple has gone through the Looking Glass that apple is no longer that which in days of old moved Earth and Heaven just think about who those analysts are writing for it's people like us it's no they're writing for clients to manipulate people like us yeah well they they can write what they want there's that and then there's you know real actual reality so real real I've heard of this reality Seth sometimes it's cold and I have to pay for things but I've heard about it right all right sir well I want to thank you for joining me on this yearend apple and iOS of palooza um if people are interested in you the stuff you're writing the things that you're developing Seth where can they find you uh you can find me on app.net and Twitter I'm Seth Clifford in both places uh and if you want to see some of the work that we do at our company uh nickel fish.com nice and we pre-recorded two episodes of iterate for the holidays we have a Christmas episode and a New Year's episode and we have Brad Ellis um Lou Mantia and Jesse Char from Pacific Helm joining us and we also have a round table with David Barnard and Russell Ivanovich on the future of app stores looking forward to both of those yep good stuff check them out you will have lots to listen to all right well you can find me at Renee Richie you can find all of of us at imore you can email us at podcast imore.com and for all of our shows you can go to mobilenations.com/shows or just check them out on imore when we post them uh Seth thank you for joining us everyone in the chat room thank you so much for joining us um I'll also I I'll give you some teasers for debug too guy English and I sat down and did interviews with uh Dave tier from one password which will be out I believe tomorrow and with Craig hackenberry and Sean Herbert of um sorry SE Heber of twitterific so we have tons and tons of good stuff coming to this holiday season yeah cool you champ be podcast L and we're going to do a mobile Nations podcast a year end uh actually we're going to do a mobile Nations CES preview I think next week so it'll be a lot of fun stuff is that the best Christmas movie ever die yeah pretty much it's between that and elf for me like you sit on the throne of lies and stink of meat and cheese yeah yeah I I think I need to go by die hard I was actually thinking about watching it today Santa's coming I know him I buy all that I buy into Will Farrell completely in those characters yeah I know he's he really sells it\n"