I'm not a big fan of the Taos. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of that car. That comes down to transmission, driveability. I'm a driver. I like enjoying driving on the road, and these take away from it, especially even if it's just a low-speed drivability issue, like the Hornet has, for the most part, as well as the Taos. Yeah, it's even worse in that Taos. Yeah, so that irks me more than other things, like driving position and controls. I can deal with some bad controls if the driving experience pays off. Worth it, yeah. Yeah. Right. But I'm going to draw the line on that for me, because sometimes even if a car drives really well - like some of our really expensive Mercedes-Benz all-electric vehicles drive pretty well. I mean, they're quiet. They're comfortable. But to me, the controls are just such a deal breaker. I don't want to mess around with it, in other words.

So we went kind of from comparing the Hornet and the Tonale, and we've circled around to looking at the Hornet compared to the competition. And it seems like that perhaps Chrysler and Alfa Romeo still have a little ways to go here. Yeah. They are - they're kind of pitching it as the fun-to-drive option in the segment, right? That's why you have this standard 2.0-liter with the higher horsepower than kind of most of the competition, right?

I was thinking about this, and if I wanted - if I was after that fun-to-drive aspect in a small crossover, I would get a Kona N. Right. Similar power, a little more exciting. Because this isn't - ultimately, it drives fine, and it's relatively comfortable, but it's not that engaging or sporty to drive. So Kona N actually starts at a pretty similar price as to what we paid for this. And if I was after one of the higher Hornet trims as a plug-in hybrid, which start to get pretty expensive, RAV4 Prime all day for me.

Right. Yeah. I just don't see the - there's nothing really drawing me in personally. Yeah. I like your selections a lot. And the first time I drove the - and I know this podcast isn't about the Tonale, but the first time I saw it in Consumer Reports' Auto Test Garage, I was liked dazzled by the wheels. Like the wheels were great, great design. And I'm like, wow, this thing might be kind of fun.

And I drove it, and I was like, eh. And then I drove the Hornet, and I thought I think I prefer driving the Hornet over the Alfa. Yeah, simpler. Which is crazy. Yeah. That's a huge difference. Yeah. That's a huge difference. And your range. Without the plug-in system, your fuel tank's larger, and your range is a lot higher. But you mentioned the look, and I will say in the Hornet, giving it the benefit of the doubt here, when I drove it for a weekend, a lot of people were actually asking me about it, like, oh what is that?

So I think especially with the dark wheels and kind of the interesting paint color that we have on ours, it was getting some attention. That might be more of a compliment to Alfa Romeo than it is to Dodge, but boy, it did get some attention. Right. Yeah.

Listen, I learned a lot just talking about the differences between the Hornet and the Tonale. And just a reminder, this is just our first impressions. Check back with consumer reports.org for more information and our experiences on the Hornet, as we honor the miles and finish up our testing. And we'll see if this Hornet can fly.

Our audience question. We love your questions. Text 30-second videos send everything to TalkingCars@icloud.com. That's TalkingCars@icloud.com.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enHi, and welcome back.I'm Mike Quincy.I'm Joe Veselak.I'm Alex Knizek.So today's Talking Cars, yourfavorite podcast and mine,we are going to talk aboutthe 2023 Dodge Hornet.Hornet, what theheck is that, right?So if you're intoAmerican car history,you're going to geta kick out of this.The name Hornet used to beon an American Motors model.The car was a featured playerin the James Bond movieThe Man With the Golden Gun.It was red and didthat spectacular jumpacross a river.Chrysler boughtAmerican Motors in 1987,mostly to get the company'shighly valued Jeep brand,and promptly shuttered allthe American Motors models.But the new model hasnothing in common here.This iteration shares mostof its body, powertrain,and interior with the 2023Alfa Romeo Tonale, which wecovered in a previous podcast.Both are built alongside eachother at a plant in Italy.The Hornet is styled likeyet another SUV-ish vehicle,competes with the Ford BroncoSport, the Hyundai TucsonHybrid, the Kia Sportage,the Toyota RAV4 Prime,and the Volkswagen Taos.Standard powertrain is a2.0-liter turbocharged 4cylinder engine with a 9-speedautomatic transmission.The engine kicks out268 horsepower buton required premium fuel.We'll get to that later.EPA estimates 30 milesper gallon overall.All wheel drive is standard.Standard safety features includeForward Collision Warning,Automatic Emergency Brakingwith pedestrian and cyclistdetection, Blind Spot Warning,Lane Departure Warning,Lane Keeping Assist, andRear Cross Traffic Warning.Can't we just say everythingis-- all the safetyfeatures are standard?This is a long list here.A Driver Attention Monitor,Adaptive Cruise Control,and Lane CenteringAssistance are optional.We bought a GT model andadded the Blacktop package,Cold Weather package,and a few odds and ends.And with the destination,the MSRP came to $34,675.So with that, I hopeyou're not like allergicto any stings or anything.So we're going totalk about the Hornetand avoid the stinger,the Kia Stinger.Ah.See that connection there?So Joe, tell us what youthink so far of the Hornet.Yeah.So yeah, being based off ofthe Tonale, the Alfa Romeothat we've recentlypurchased or beengetting some experience with,it's better, but not by much.And that's notreally a good thing.One thing I do likea lot is the power.You wouldn't thinkthat 268 horsepower--I don't like the powerdelivery, but that power,when you ask for it, it'sactually pretty quick.And it's good for passingsituations, stuff like that.I fit decent in it.I also felt like I fitpretty good in the Tonale.After spending sometime and speakingwith others that noticedsome nuances, like Alex,then I sit in it again, and Igo, yeah, that does bother me.But I kind of candrive a lot of carsand get around some of theissues with driving position.But I like how the seat feels.Other than that, thingsget pretty rough.Yeah.Joe is not a complainer,so he can, yeah,ignore a lot of the--Well, stand aside, and Alexand I have our opinions.Yeah.Controls-- I feel likejust like in the Tonale,you feel like you'rekind of playing dartswith the screenwith a rougher ride.It's too small.Small icons a lot, very busy.Yeah, the shifter is nice.I like that.I like a traditional shifter,especially in terms of driving.I always rest my hands sometimeson the shifter when I'mon longer trips on the highway.But yeah, there'sa lot going on.The controls are overwhelming.There's a few issues.Alex, you definitelyreacted to when Joewas talking about the screen.Yeah.Fill us in here.Well, I mean, in general,I kind of feel badfor Alfa Romeo a little bit.Because the Hornetis so similar,and it's just-- it'sprobably going to take away,maybe, some much needed salesfor Alfa Romeo in the US,right?But just scale backjust a second here.Is this kind of inside baseball?I mean, we know thatAlfa Romeo and Dodgeare owned by the same company.Yeah.And probably, viewers andlisteners of Talking Carsknow that also.Sure.But, you know, so--I'm sorry.I didn't mean to interrupt.No, no, no.So same platform, a lotof the same components.Same look.But the Hornet is probablyjust, like you said, probablygoing to sell a lot more.I would think so.And I just-- it'ssuch a similar vehiclethat you're really notgetting a different experiencewith the Alfa Romeo, right?Like yes, it comesplug-in hybrid only,but you can also get theplug-in hybrid with the Hornet,if you get one of thehigher trims, right?But like it looks so similar.The interior is prettymuch copy paste.So just if the Alfa was theunique one in the marketplace,maybe more of the sales wouldgo towards that rather thanthe Dodge version.So I just feel it's a littleinteresting you don't reallysee such blatant badgeengineering all that oftenthese days, right?We've kind of moved past that.But that's what this feels like.But at least with theDodge, it is cheaper, right?You can get thisnon-plug-in version.Well, I was goingto bring that up.Right.I mean, not only thatthey're sharing components,but they're not sharingprice tags, right?Yeah, right.Which again is notgreat for Alfa.When you look at thesetwo cars side by side--we do happen to havethem both right now,and they do feel so similar,and the price differenceis quite large.Granted, yes, the Hornet wegot is not plug-in hybrid,whereas the Alfa is,so that's a huge reasonfor that price difference.But yeah, I mean, theengine you mentioned.That is a little uniquefor this segment,this kind of compact crossoversegment to come standard withthat 2.0-liter turbo thatthe 268 horsepower that youmentioned-- that's definitelya unique aspect of this, right?Most vehicles, like some ofthe others that you mentioned,are not turbocharged,first of all,and they're somewhere around200 horsepower or somethinglike that, probably a CVT.Well, yeah, the competitionis going to reallyhave an advantage whenit comes to fuel economycompared to the Hornet.Yeah, that is thenegative, absolutely.But talk aboutthe power deliveryof this turbocharged engine.Yeah, it wasn't great, right?No.I mean, some hesitation,maybe some confusionfrom the transmission ofwhich gear it wanted to be in.I don't know if you found.Yeah, even moving fromforward to reverse,and then once went from reverseto forward in this situationto drive.And then I go toget on the throttle,and there's just this hesitationclunk and a lunge forward.And it seems to do that in goinginto reverse sometimes, too.It's very clunky, andthen this surge of power,and then it sorts it.I feel like the more throttleinput you give it, the better.It likes quicker.It likes a little more.It says drive me fast.Yeah, you want todrive it aggressive.So when you try toactually drive it smooth,it's counterintuitive andit goes the other way.Right.And then when youdrive it aggressively,you start to get a littletorque steer actuallyin this from that power.So this whole preambleabout this carwas introduced witha lot of history,which I'm a big fan of.But when you talk about torquesteer, and, with this case,turbo lag--It does sound old school.These are terms that wereused like in the '80s and '90swith some of theearliest iterationsof turbocharged cars, whichwere not common back then.And yet, we're seeingthese characteristicsin a modern car.Yeah, yeah, yeah.I don't know.It is interesting.And the tuning thatthey decided to go with,going after thishigher horsepower,I think there are somecompromises there.And it does feellike maybe there'ssome refinement they could dothere to smooth things out,make it a littlemore responsive, justa better experience overall.Yeah, and just to circleback on the controls.I want to get your take onthe touch screen and someof the other things going on.Yeah, it's just like the Alfa.It's a mixed bag.You have some greatphysical controls.A lot of the climate isbuttons and physical switchesthat you can use.You have a regular shifter, likeyou mentioned, so that's great.But the screen itself,which is runningUconnect, which the latestversion, Uconnect 5,is pretty good.It's similar to what youget in a Jeep or someof these other Stellantisvehicles, right?But the size and aspectratio of the screenthat they chose to put inboth of these cars is just--it just doesn't work withthe software, in my opinion.It's too small, and it'sreally wide and short.So the way thesystem is laid outis there's a lot ofreally long lists.So when you have a reallyshort screen trying to swipethrough all these listsand select the featuresyou want, it's simplydifficult to do,and then the thingsyou're targetingare really small, as youmentioned, like playing darts,right?Yeah, yeah, yeah.So it just doesn't really work.And then the car is a little--it's not the stiffest thing,but you're bouncingaround a little bit.And just trying to do allthis stuff while drivingis not the easiest.So some pluses and minuses,and even the steering wheelcontrols I don't findto be super intuitive.You have to press a button toselect which area on the gaugecluster you wantto start changing,like if you want to look at Tripversus some other informationon the screen, right?So you have to press the button,select the area of the screen,but then it times out.And if you don't make yourselection quick enough,now that little scroll wheelthing changes to Next Track.Or, in my case, I know I'vecomplained about this before.But if you're listening tolike a long podcast, and thenyou accidentally switchoff the screen, nowall of a suddenyou started it overand your hour anda half progress--Day's ruined.So, I don't know, just littleannoyances that add up, right?And it goes alongthe same mentalitythat Consumer Reports hasbeen saying a long time,that these controls requiremore driver attention.You're trying.You have to think hard andget your hand-eye coordinationjust right to get to thesecond part of the podcast.It's taking your attentionaway from just driving.Yeah.Yeah.Right.Yeah, and you mentionedthe driving position.And it reminds-- justthere's fundamentalswith this vehicle that theydidn't seem to get right,and that one reallyspeaks to me.Because there's so manyvehicles you hop in now,and the driving position isgenerally pretty darn good.You get enough adjustmentfrom the seat, and the wheel,and everything'spositioned pretty well.So it's pretty rare that you seea fundamental issue like that.But in this vehicle,and in the Alfa as well,the dead pedal-- the pedal tothe left of the brake pedalthat you can rest your footon-- for me, it's way too close.So if I want to put the seatwhere I want to sit relativeto everything else,now my legs arekind of like crunched upa little bit because I'mtoo close to the pedals.Or if I want to fix thatproblem and scoot the seat back,now there's not enough telescopeadjustment from the wheel,so my arms are stretched out.And then added onto thatis the seat belt anchor.I know, Joe, youand I were talkingabout this, where there'snot enough adjustment there,so the belt's alwaysslipping off my shoulder.So it's just likethings you-- and itsounds like a kind ofminuscule complaint,but again, all of thesethings come together.But these are basics.Yes, they're basics.These are things that everycar company has to consider.I mean, the drivingposition is critical.And to not have the belt toput on at the right heightis kind of nuts.Right.Yeah, you don't see it often.And it's not thatit's not adjustable.It just doesn't adjust enough.Right.Yeah, it's likethe lower B pillaror the B pillar came outof the Dart or something,and it's just ina lower location.It's funny, becausewhen you saidthat you're trying tomanipulate the screen,and you're like playing darts,I was like oh, Dodge Dart.There you go.Yeah, Dodge Dart.That's--We've circled back on toall the old Dodge products.--maybe not the best benchmark.The only thing that I'm goingto add about the controlsis traditionallyChrysler Dodge Jeepvehicles would have the audiocontrols on the back sideof the steering wheel.So, like, your righthand could reach around,and you could do the volume.Your left couldadvance the trackor go to your next radio preset.So when I got in thiscar, and I was like,oh, they're not there.Yeah.Oh, that's too bad.Well sticking with the interior,can we talk about the fitand finish a little bit?Any thoughts,feelings about this?I'd like how it's prettybasic with the clothor whatever materialthe seats are.I like that, the red stitching.I like stuff when it'ssimple, not a lot of chromeall over the place, wood.I just like a matteblack or some silver,brushed aluminum,very simple with--yeah I think it's--I like it.Again, at like a pricepoint, at where it is,you're not going to expectanything extravagant, whichit's fine.And yeah, you'd like maybe somesuede or some more sporty stuffon there--some leather-- butI'm fine without it.I mean, are you seeing anykind of like Italian flairwith this, goingback to the Alfa?The little bit of Italian flairin the Tonale, the little flagon the dash--I think they removed that andput maybe a little bee logoor something likethat-- hornet, right?But no, I think in generalit does pretty well.There's not a tonof little details,but some nicermaterials and I thinksome softer materials on thedash and things like that.So I do think it's competitivefrom a fit and finishstandpoint, from myperspective anyway.Yeah, I liked the thickand grippy steering wheel.But I thought there was just toomuch hard plastic throughout.But maybe that's aconcession that you're takingwith a car at this price point.So sort of not totallysurprising, but still kindof another reason too thatwe're looking at this car,perhaps, and just saying,it's just not enough.There's not enough there.There's not enough that jazzesme, either the way it drivesor the way it's put together.Yeah.It's not convincing.Well, right.And this is a verycompetitive segment,I mean this size SUV,kind of a boxy vehicle,offering all wheel drive.It seems that that's what alot of people are looking for.Yeah, the problemis when you lookat the list of thecompetitors, I justlook at all the other optionsthat I would choose first.Right.Yeah.So it's tough,and, like you said,it's a very competitive market.That being said,there's a few in herethat I would notchoose as well, but--What would those be?The Taos.Yeah.I'm not a big fan of, and thatcomes down to transmission,driveability.I'm a driver.I like enjoyingdriving on the road,and these take awayfrom it, especially evenif it's just a lowspeed drivabilityissue, like the Hornethas, for the most part,as well as the Taos.Yeah, it's evenworse in that Taos.Yeah, so that irks memore than other things,like driving positionand controls.I can deal withsome bad controlsif the drivingexperience pays off.Worth it, yeah.Yeah.Right.But I'm going to--I'm going to draw the line onthat for me, because sometimeseven if a cardrives really well--like some of our reallyexpensive Mercedes-Benzall electric vehiclesdrive pretty well.I mean, they're quiet.They're comfortable.But to me, the controls arejust such a deal breaker,I don't want to--I don't want to mess aroundwith it, in other words.So we went kindof from comparingthe Hornet and the Tonale,and we've circled aroundto looking at the Hornet incomparison to the competition.And it seems like that perhapsChrysler and Alfa Romeostill have a littleways to go here.Yeah, they are-- they'rekind of pitching itas the fun to drive optionin the segment, right?That's why you have thisstandard 2.0-liter withthe higher horsepower than kindof most of the competition,right?I was thinkingabout this, and if Iwanted-- if I was afterthat fun to drive aspectin a small crossover,I would get a Kona N.Right.Similar power, alittle more exciting.Because this isn't--ultimately, it drives fine,and it's relatively comfortable,but it's not that engagingor sporty to drive.So Kona N actually startsat a pretty similar priceas to what we paid for this.And if I was after one ofthe higher Hornet trimsas a plug-in hybrid, whichstart to get pretty expensive,RAV4 Prime all day for me.Right.So yeah, I just don't see the--there's nothing reallydrawing me in personally.Yeah.I like your selections a lot.And the first timeI drove the-- and Iknow this podcastisn't about the Tonale,but the first time I saw itin Consumer Reports' Auto TestGarage, I was likedazzled by the wheels.Like the wheels were--Mhm, the phone dials.--great, great design.And I'm like, wow, thisthing might be kind of fun.And I drove it,and I was like, eh.And then I drovethe Hornet, and Ithought I think I prefer drivingthe Hornet over the Alfa.Yeah, simpler.Which is crazy.Yeah, it weighs like 600 poundsless or something like thatwithout the plug-in.That much?Yeah, it's quitea bit different.Yeah.That's a huge difference.And your range.Without the plug-in system,your fuel tank's larger,and your range is a lot higher.But you mentioned the look,and I will say in the Hornet,giving it the benefitof the doubt here,when I drove it for aweekend, a lot of peoplewere actually asking me aboutit, like, oh what is that?So I think especially withthe dark wheels and kindof the interesting paintcolor that we have on ours,it was getting some attention.That might be more of acompliment to Alfa Romeothan it is to Dodge, but boy,it did get some attention.Right.But the way thatboth of you guyswere kind of introducing yourimpressions about this car,there just seemedlike this dark cloudthat was hanging over AlfaRomeo, more so than Dodge.Yeah.Yeah, kind of.Oh, wow.Listen, I learneda lot just talkingabout the differences betweenthe Hornet and the Tonale.And just a reminder, this isjust our first impressions.Check back withconsumerreports.orgfor more information and ourexperiences on the Hornet,as we honor the miles andfinish up our testing.And we'll see ifthis Hornet can fly.And that brings us toour audience question.We love your questions.Text 30-second videos.Send everything toTalkingCars@icloud.com.That's TalkingCars@icloud.com.We've got a question.This is Jim from SiouxFalls, South Dakota,who writes, \"Automakers seemto be discontinuing modelsat an increasing rate.Should the buyer of a usedcar that has been discontinuedbe concerned, especiallyif the goal isto hang on to the carfor 10 plus years?\"Excellent observation, Jim.And Alex, I'm goingto put this one to youfirst to give Jim an insightas to what's happeningwith these disappearing cars.Yeah.Well, if you watchedour last episode,I'm going to soundlike a broken record,but it reallydepends on the car.Right.So it's a greatquestion, and thereseems to be this idea outthere, and I had the samethought myself until lookinginto this a little more deeply,that automakers have to supplyparts and things for carsfor a certain amount oftime, like past their life--10, 15 years.Something like that seems tobe the common thought that'sout there.But I couldn't find anythingto actually support that.That law, wasn'table to find it.Maybe it's more urban myth then.I don't know.Yeah, It appears to be.So ultimately, likemany things, lifecomes down to ifthere's enough moneyto be made in supportingthat vehicle, right?So if it's a popular model,whether it's the automakerfinds it valuable andbeneficial to keep supporting itthrough parts andservice and thingslike that, or theaftermarket, right?Right.They went.They made enough years ofthis vehicle for enough timewhere it's worth it forthem to keep supporting it.If you're considering a carthat was discontinued because itwas announced, and onlyon sale for a few years,and didn't sell much,and was kind of a flop,you're probably less welloff, because there's reallynot a lot of them outthere to start with,and then there'sreally no incentiveto keep the support going.So yeah.So it reallydepends on the modeland, also, if that car isbeing discontinued and goingto be replaced bysomething similar,or if it's justgoing away full stop.And then the lastthing that comesto mind for me is doesthat model share partswith other cars in thatautomaker's lineup?I think that's critical.Yeah, if it's got a commonengine that was used elsewhere,or suspensionparts, or whatever,right-- some componentsfrom platform sharingis a big thing these days.So that'll help keep thelife of it going longer, too.So Joe, would you ever,like, take the plunge?And if you could geta car that you knewwas going to be discontinued,or maybe it's an older onethat maybe you liked--with everything that Alex said?Yeah, I think I would,depending on what the car was.But for situationswhere I knew therewas a model beingdiscontinued that Iknew I can have aftermarketsupport, not evenmanufacturer support,or it's somethingthat I'm confident in.Because you couldbe depending onif you're the type of personwho's knowledgeable and knowshow to--has the resources, gettingstuff fixed, or confidentin that area, then it'snot that big of a riskif there's support from anaftermarket industry or partselsewhere.Would you buy a Saturn?No.I wouldn't buy oneif there were parts.OK.OK.OK, I owned a couple of those.And Alex, what I wasthinking about whenyou were giving your answerabout the popularity of cars,think about it.The Volkswagen Beetle hasbeen out of productionsince, I think, '79 or '80.But there is such anaftermarket support,you can probably get almostevery replacement componentfor an old school Beetle,even probably more so nowthan when they werein full production.Right.Right.So I think you're spot on withthe popularity of the car.Right.Other models, I mean,I'm not ashamed.I'm a big fan of Saabs, andthey've been out of productionfor a while.There is a decent amount ofaftermarket parts for it,except for like the lastmodel, the last Saab 9-5.I wouldn't probably buy that.Right, which sharedcomponents with a Buick Regal,which was a European platform--that was not producedfor long at all.Yeah.Yeah, like if you needed a bodypanel, or a headlight assembly,or a piece of glass that'sunique to that car, right--like more of thosetypes of components.Yeah, the alternator might beshared with something else,but one of thoseexterior pieces, right?Yeah.Yeah, I think a bigpart of this, too,and hearing yourguys' answer is, like,how much work the personis willing to do, right?How handy they are.They are going tojunkyards to find pieces.I mean, you can keep anythinggoing if you work hard enough,I suppose, right?Is this the car,or cars that Jimis thinking aboutreferring to-- isthis going to be aday-to-day driver,or is this like a hobby car?Sure, that's a greatconsideration as well,for sure.Yeah, for sure.Because if it's ahobby car, then youdon't have to worry aboutit sitting for a whilebecause you can't find aparticular part that you'regoing for.Right.Yeah, and you don'tnecessarily haveto be mechanically inclined.I guess what I was sayingbefore is just as longas you have theresources or the peopleto reach out toto have it fixed,you can source the partsyourself and can kind of justtake it upon yourself tofind everything and findsomeone who can do it ifyou're not capable of doing it.Right.And, like, to bring it into kindof practical examples, the FordCrown Victoria and theMercury Grand Marquisshared a wholebunch of componentswith also the Lincoln TownCar and stuff like that--same platform, sameengine, transmission.And I believe that theMercury was discontinued,but they kept selling the CrownVic for a little bit longer.So if you could get a greatdeal on a Grand Marquis,you know you're going to beable to get parts for thiswithout an issue.Right.Right.So it really does come downto the really specific makeand model thatyou're interested in.Don't they also callthese orphan cars?Have you heard that expression?I have heard that expression.Yeah.I'm not sure what it means.Orphan-- they have these carshows called orphan car shows,and they aregatherings of peoplethat have American Motorsvehicles, or Ramblers,or some brand that isno longer in existence.Oh, I see.OK.So that kind of makesthem the orphan.Right now, you could say you'regoing to bring your Mercury,you're going tobring your Plymouth.Your Saturn.Your Saturn, exactly.These are all orphan cars.If it'll make it.So it's not exactly howJim phrased his question,but we are certainly onautomotive geek time here,so we get these kinds of things.And that will about do itfor this episode, whichwas produced and editedmasterfully by Anatoliythe Great Shumskiy.As always, check the shownotes for more informationon the vehicles and topicsthat we've discussed.Just a reminder, pleasekeep your questionscoming toTalkingCars@icloud.com.Thanks so much for tuning in.\n"