**The Power of AI-Powered Sales Coaching**

In today's fast-paced sales environment, having a well-trained and effective sales team is crucial for businesses to succeed. However, finding the perfect balance between providing personalized coaching and managing a large sales force can be a daunting task. This is where AI-powered sales coaching comes in – a game-changer that can help sales leaders streamline their process, provide instant feedback, and refine their sales teams' performance.

**A Playbook for Success**

For many businesses, having a standardized playbook or methodology is essential to ensure consistency across the board. A well-crafted playbook serves as a roadmap for sales reps to follow, providing them with a clear understanding of what's expected of them. By adopting a playbook, companies can create a level playing field where all sales reps are held to the same standards, allowing for more effective comparison and evaluation. Moreover, a playbook helps sales teams stay aligned with the company's overall goals and objectives.

**The Benefits of Instant Feedback**

One of the most significant advantages of AI-powered sales coaching is the ability to provide instant feedback to sales reps. With traditional methods, managers would have to spend hours listening to calls, providing feedback, and refining their sales strategies. However, this process can be time-consuming and resource-intensive, making it challenging for small businesses or startups to implement. The Wonder.ai platform changes that by allowing managers to score calls quickly and easily, giving them instant feedback on each rep's performance.

**Why AI is the Perfect Solution**

AI-powered sales coaching is perfect for businesses of all sizes – from large enterprises to small startups. While bigger companies can customize the platform to fit their specific playbook requirements, smaller organizations can still benefit from Wonder.ai's off-the-shelf templates and scoring system. This makes it an accessible solution for those who may not have the resources or time to develop a tailored methodology.

**The Limitations of Traditional Sales Coaching**

Unfortunately, traditional sales coaching methods often fall short when it comes to scalability and consistency. For example, let's say a sales manager has 10 reps on their team, each making around 20 calls per week. This translates to 200 calls per week for the manager – an impossible task to keep up with, especially considering other responsibilities like managing the team, responding to emails, and attending meetings.

**AI is Not Replacing Human Coaches**

While AI-powered sales coaching can save managers a significant amount of time, it's essential to note that human coaches are still necessary. A good manager should have open conversations with their reps, providing guidance, support, and constructive feedback to help them improve. Wonder.ai aims to augment the role of human coaches rather than replace them entirely.

**The Future of Sales Coaching**

As AI technology continues to evolve, we can expect to see more personalized coaching becoming available. However, for now, AI-powered sales coaching is an excellent solution for businesses looking to streamline their process and provide instant feedback to their sales teams. By adopting a playbook, leveraging the power of AI, and combining it with human coaching, companies can create a winning formula that drives sales success.

**Getting Started with Wonder.ai**

If you're interested in learning more about Wonder.ai or implementing its solution for your business, visit our website today! Our team is always happy to chat about how we can help you level up your sales team and achieve your goals. Feel free to reach out on LinkedIn as well – I'd love to connect with you and discuss the possibilities of AI-powered sales coaching in more detail.

**Conclusion**

In conclusion, AI-powered sales coaching has the potential to revolutionize the way businesses approach sales training and development. By providing instant feedback, streamlining processes, and augmenting human coaches, Wonder.ai offers a powerful solution for companies looking to improve their sales performance. Whether you're a large enterprise or small startup, our platform can help you find your sales rhythm and achieve success in the competitive world of sales.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enwelcome to the AI Minds podcast this is a podcast where we explore the companies of Tomorrow built AI first I am your host Demetrios and in this episode it is brought to you by Guess Who Deep Gham the number one speech to text and text to speech API on the internet today trusted by the world's top conversational AI leaders startups and Enterprises like Spotify twilio NASA and Good Old City Bank in this episode we're joined by Bowen the CEO and co-founder of Wonder way how you doing Bowen great thanks for having me so you have a fascinating story that I want to get into you started off your journey in Oz born there you moved to Europe but you also did something that I think is a little atypical for a lot of the people that we talked to on the show and you were educated with a business background you were being a PM and it was a little bit of from what I understand a soul sucking job and in 2016 you had a moment where you said I can't do this anymore I've got to change something tell me about that moment yeah I think I in 2016 I went through a bit of a midlife crisis I think I was only 27 at the time so maybe an early midlife crisis mustaches didn't work motorcycles didn't work yeah a few things happen I mean my as you said I was I was at a having a bad time at my job also went through a horrible breakup um moved over to the other side of the world for for a girl that didn't work out and I was yeah trying to figure out what to do myself I found myself on the other side of the world trying to figure out what to do um and yeah my sort of founding story started sitting in my bedroom with a pen and a paper um sitting down trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and and I decided I wanted to start a company um and I was trying to find the right balance between doing something that was good for people um where I could also make some money off so I wanted to build something successful as well and F really hard about it and came to the conclusion that edtech was was the area that I was most excited about and um yeah literally just starting there then I just forged a path so started educating myself on the topic um found a co-founder who was interested in the same space and we're iterating a lot of different ideas and it landed on this idea around helping um employees to build self-directed learning Parts using the um budgets that companies were offering them for learning so um the company did did all right we we raised an initial precede round and we got our first paying customers on board um but we found that we weren't able to scale the company because we um we couldn't really prove the impact that the training was having and it was um really fell in this like nice to have category it was really more seen as a perk for the for the employees um so when we realized the business wasn't working out we were trying to figure out I was still very determined to stay in edtech and corporate learning and we're trying to figure out what the biggest problem was in this space So speaking to our existing customers and others um and everyone was pointing at the sales teams so um everybody said that that was kind of the the biggest need for training and learning um so we pivoted um started a new company um but with the same team um focusing on Building Sales Training products um with a key sort of vision to prove the impact of the training so um solving the problem we had in the last compan the the whole idea was that we hook into CRM systems like Salesforce or HubSpot and we use that data to measure the impact or identify gaps the Reps have and then measure the impact the training is having on um their conversion rates and revenue so most training products out there they're doing you know quizzes and Page views and things like that but we were really looking at like what is the actual impact on on the revenue in the organization um yeah and this worked out much better for us so we've now been working on this for about five years um uh raise the seed round um build the business up um but I think we we still ran into one key challenge with this um product in that the CRM data is still quite limited and what you can do with it it's still quite high level um and a lot of our customers were asking us if we could unlock insights out of the sales calls that reps were having because this is really the you know they know that there's a lot of interesting information sitting on the sales call some of the most valuable data is there um but they don't nobody has time to listen to the the sales calls to to score them and and capture that so people were asking us for this um they're using tools like gong and chorus like other conversation intelligence tools but it wasn't giving them what they needed um and yeah when we saw chbt come onto the scene large language models get released um you know especially when it hit beginning of 2023 we finally saw a way to do this um so the key idea we around this time we launched our second product an AR sales coach um that basically sits on sales calls and auto scores calls to see you know what are the main strength and weaknesses the sales reps following the right process what are the main strengths and weaknesses um gives them give sales reps instant feedback off the calls and then also Aggregates the data across all the calls for the management team so they can see you know what are the key um insights that are happening across the calls what are the main strengths and weaknesses for reps and across their entire team that they need to work on um so yeah that's in a nutshell my story and and kind of how that fits into the the company the two products we built and the company the company vision what attracts you to the education space so as I said it's really about um being able to help people like I think something that I've found now I've been doing startups what since 2016 2017 um so I've been doing it for seven or8 years now and it's really hard like it's it's really tough especially you know the last couple of years going through covid ups and downs there um going through this Tech recession over the last few years there's some really tough times and it's just so so important that you like do you love to do what you what you love you love what you're doing um to get you through those tough times like for me personally um I just really enjoy speaking to people every day about you know what are their goals what do they want to learn on what do they want to learn and how are they getting better like it's all about their personal development you know setting goals for themselves where they what they're not happy with today and where they want to go and that's just super rewarding like even when things are tough having those conversations all the time is good like for me personally like nothing against anyone's working in the space I think I'd find it very difficult to build like a fintech product where you're talking to people about about money every day like it's just not something that that is personally very engaging for me um but talking about people's you know goals and aspirations and and how we can help them is is super rewarding and so now with this sales co-pilot and the ability to plug into CRM I think one thing that you said that stood out to me is that you're really trying to make it tangible you're trying to have it very clear as to what someone can do to generate more revenue for the company can you break that down a little bit more and why that is like your key metric yeah I mean I think it comes back to as I said then most um most training products out there they're measuring the impact of the training based on page views and quiz scores right but there's absolutely no correlation there with what impact that's having on people's performance um afterwards in fact like we see I've seen a lot of training products out there where the key metric is um you know time spent on training whereas in corporate learning that's probably the worst metric you can have I think that yeah the least amount of training you can do for the maximum amount of performance is like the best thing like you don't want to take people away from their jobs right you want them to to jump in there learn what they need and then get out and put it into practice and get get the result fast um so I just think that a lot of the the whole mentality that a lot of these training products have is wrong and and to be honest not just the products like it's also the L&D leaders enablement leaders like we speak to customers all the time and they were pushing us to put these sorts of things into the product like tracking page views tracking time on page and we were saying well we don't care about that and and you shouldn't either like what you should be looking at is you know are people getting better and are they closing more deals and are they making more money like that's ultimately how every sales person is measured um and ultimately you know how the head of sales and the leadership team's measured as well so if you not focused on Revenue then you're not you know you're misaligned with the goals of the sales team in my opinion yeah have you been able to do any studies on how much more Revenue people are closing or how how much better people are because of this yeah yeah of course I mean that's the number one metric we're reporting back so we look at we look at it in um three main metrics so for onboarding we're looking at reduction in ramp time so the time it takes a sales rep from the day they join to close their first deal or or hit their quot um for the upscaling we're looking at increasing conversion rates and for the coach we're looking at um increase in conversion rates but we're also looking at adherence to to a Playbook or a process as an ear indicator to that um so for all of these we've got case studies like we've reduced ramp Time by um 60 60% for some companies um we've change we've increased conversion rates by 40% for teams um so yeah it's having a massive impact um and again like I think that having this Focus like aligning oursel with the the the main metrics that matter of the sales teams has helped us in sales because it allows us to elevate the conversation like if we're stuck with a with a um L&D person who's focused on quiz scores and Page views you know we're probably speaking to the wrong person who's not going to be the buyer anyway like being able to focus the conversation on the main metrics gets us to the right person who's usually the budget holder and also allows us to have the right conversations at renewal so we can actually show them like hey since you started using Wonder way here's how much more money you've made as a result like here's the the results like and then that renewal conversation for the next year is also much easier so I think that's something we've been traditionally quite good at is like starting with smaller deals and then proving ourselves over the first couple of months or a year and then and then using that to then close a bigger deal in the second year um which is great for SAS like the net revenue retention is something that you know looks really good for investors when you're expanding clients one thing that I do love about this idea is how closely tied you are to revenue and how easy it is to prove value because there's a lot of tools out there that are abstractly trying to say that they're saving you money or they're making you money with this it feels like it's very clear look I got your sales team anytime you bring someone on we can cut the onboarding time in half which means they're closing deals much faster and that's bringing you more money or the people that you already have on the team they're closing more deals which is bringing you more money so when you thought about a pricing strategy on this I can see how on one hand it would be easy just to do like a seat based pricing with like SAS but then on the other hand it's like there's actual value happening here so are you thinking about like a percentage of take of that value taking a percentage of that value or is it how so I guess the question is how are you pricing this product yeah yeah it's a good it's good question so I me we thought a lot about this in the end we do do seat based pricing um the main reason being there's kind of two reasons first of all we're still competing against traditional training products so I think there's like a ceiling to what we can charge here especially for new customers because we're still stuck in like in like a mental framework a mental model of like what a training production cost and I think you know we do charge more than than any of the other like learning management systems on the market but I don't think we can charge 10 times more because I think people kind of bark at that so I think we kind of stuck there um the other thing that we found is that like we've looked at doing like Revenue shares or something with customers but it is still quite risky because at the end of the day we can build the training we can help them build the training programs we can set the metrics we can do all that but it's still comes down to them whether they're going to follow the training programs and I think that's quite a big risk with you know for any I guess you know for any companies that you can set the right goals for people you can set up the right training program but do they then follow up through on it and make sure and not all of our customers do and I think that's also a big risk for us so we have done it with some customers like had um goals over the first three to six months where we've pushed higher prices and and like looked at rev share but I think it is it is inherently risky to do this um across all of the customer base um so yeah but it's good it's a good question it's something that we think about a lot actually is is um how can we because I think it's nice like it's aligning everyone together but then you need to I don't think you can do it for every customer you sign you need to find the right ones who are committed to to following through as well it's also dangerous if you're trying to do it on a REV share model the product of the customer that you're selling to actually has to be good and the sales from that customer actually have to happen so you can get yourself into hot water by selling selling to a team who doesn't sell and there's too many open questions and things that you cannot control right so I can understand going against that it almost feels like yeah maybe just to get in you have one pricing and then once you're in and people are seeing value then you say okay now we're going to do it off of a r sh yeah because you have I imagine you have the numbers like hey here's your average sale price and so if we can help you do x amount more of those that means that we're helping you make y dollars and so we charge uh 10% of those y dollars or whatever it may be then it's a very clear mathematical equation but I also understand that right now it it's also like you're looking at the positioning and is it a training tool is it a sales co-pilot is it um something that the sales team is buying or the learning team is buying and you find yourself in uh like playing with all of those variables yeah I think something that's worth also mentioning here I talked about how we evolved and we had the training product and some of the gaps here L us to the the coach um another like key thing that we learned from the first product we built was that you know what we're doing we're still doing content Based training so like we would use the CRM data to identify Gap that a rep had we'd recommended training from our catalog and then we would look at the conversion rates and revenue like a few weeks later to see if there was a difference but what we were finding is there's a lot of like variation in the data especially over the last couple of years where the econom has been all out of whack so we kind of went like training happened and then results happened but we couldn't necessarily draw the concrete line from from training to revenue and that's what the coach can do now as well so I think it's filling that missing gap of like training happens um and now what we can actually see is do the sales reps change their behavior on the calls so do they actually act differently do we see that they're speaking about the product in a different way or they're handling negotiations in a different way and then what impact does that have on on um on the revenue so I think that was always the missing piece and something that we've been struggling with and I think all training training products struggle with is that just because someone passes the training um and even if they can pass a quiz or an assessment or a role play do do they actually change their behavior um when they're in front of a customer and that's been the missing piece of the puzzle and that's what's now possible Right is the only way of figuring that out before was to literally have a sales trainer or coach or an enablement person sitting down and reviewing calls one by one um and and you know scoring them manually but now with large language models you can have this them do this for you um so they can literally you know basically fill the role of the the coach or at least this administrative part of like scoring the calls and seeing what the what how people are behaving on the calls so that's just been like a major breakthrough that wasn't possible a year and a half ago walk me through what the product actually looks like and if I have my sales team and I want them to level up I want to start selling more what do I do I work with you to create the training course to show my sales team the specific type of sales that I want them to be doing or is there already a standard package given and then there's also a co-pilot that joins their calls to see if they're going through it so it's two different products we have the the LMS like training product and then we have the coach um our vision is to combine them together but right now they're separate um and yeah let's maybe let's talk more about the coach because I think that's more relevant as well for for like this AI discussion and that's why we're using deep gr as well um so the idea behind the product is that um the coach will like the coach will join the calls with the sales reps um so basically we'll record the call that the sales rep is having with the customers we'll transcribe it using digram and then we'll analyze the text to score it and give feedback to the to the sales rep um so the way that it works is that we have in terms of like the the main setup process is um seeing how we score the calls so um we have like a bunch of templates off the shelf around all the major sales methodologies like spin selling spice B medic I don't know if you know any of these these like these sales methodologies so you can use those templates off the shelf but pretty much all of our customers um customize it for their own sales process so they have a slightly different um Playbook that they apply to like their call calls versus the discovery calls versus demos negotiations and they can customize like what are the metrics what are the metrics or the steps that they want to score those calls on and that the coach will basically listen into the calls and score them against those criteria so um I think where it's especially helpful is like um you know working with companies who you know maybe just raised a series A or a series B um they've hired a bunch of people in the team and they have a a clear sales process they want the Reps to follow um and it's about making sure everyone is sort of Performing up to a certain standard so you know if you've got a new Joiner who's has you know just joined the team um and you have a Playbook you want them to follow then trying to get them as quickly as possible up to that you know maybe I think for lot of our customers are not necessarily trying to expect everyone to be at 10 out of 10 but they want everyone to be following a process they can get them to seven or an eight out of 10 um consistently and there's nothing quite like having that like instant feedback after every call to to refine I mean again before the only way to do this would be the managers may be riding along On the calls maybe they're listening to One Call a week but person at best um whereas now we're able to do it for every single call the rep is taking so they can like iterate on those calls and get better every time um so that's probably like where we've seen the most success is with these bigger companies you know bigger sales teams clear processors um but if you're also like a startup who's just starting out in sales maybe you're a a technical founder who's getting sales for the first time if you don't have that process in place you can also use the product using the templates we have off the shelf and I think that will already help you to you know if you want to align yourself around a certain methodology um I think it'll give you great feedback straight away but yeah the most value is for the Enterprise clients who have that who customize it for their own playbooks yeah I know a lot of sales consultants and coaches that do the same thing and really what they're doing is at the end of the day listening to calls giving feedback and in a way this feels like something that could help them a ton because they can put their methodology into Wonder way and that sales coach they can see at a glance what the score is they can probably go to the relevant Snippets and then listen to those and then give concrete feedback directly on that snippet and it doesn't need to be okay I've got a sales team of 10 people I'm trying to listen to 10 20 hours of calls a week at 2X and then give my overview of it and try and give that feedback that's just not sustainable the reality is Nobody Does it right like I think every sales leader knows that they should be I had the same when I I was leading with my sales team I told them I was going to listen to call a week and I I probably was doing one a month at best I mean especially if you take that example you're a sales manager with 10 reps they're doing probably somewhere between 10 to 20 calls each so that's 100 to 200 calls a week and you're one person like it's not possible like you can't you can't physically do it um you know and again I think it's I think listening to the calls is just it's something that's important but it's not urgent so it's always one of the things like you know it's always a thing that gets pushed in a manager's diary right like they they know they want to spend a day a week listening to calls and giving feedback but you know there's something on fire and and there's a slot blocked in the calendar it's always the first thing to go so I think like you know what we do right now is we don't replace the role of the manager I think the manager should still be having the conversations with the Reps Hing them improve but we do save them the time on sitting down and scoring those calls I think eventually maybe AI gets good enough that it can you know start to provide much more personalized coaching but right now I think you know the main value we're adding here is scoring the call saving the manager's time and helping to identify the main strength and weaknesses for each person that that manager can then work on with their their sales rep um so it's not replacing the role of the manager but it should be saving them you know tons of time every week um and and you know doing these doing these important but but not urgent tasks I think that's what AI is the best thing for actually is is doing people dirty work for them uh he doing the Dirty Work that that they can't get around to that's perfect that's the stuff that you want to Outsource to toi know exactly so Bowen where can people learn more and figure out how to level up their sales team yeah so um jump on our website Wonder way. um or you can catch me on LinkedIn so um just my name bow and Moody at LinkedIn and feel free to DM me um and yeah happy to chat about this as I said love talking to people about about about this every day so please reach out if you're interested excellent I appreciate thiswelcome to the AI Minds podcast this is a podcast where we explore the companies of Tomorrow built AI first I am your host Demetrios and in this episode it is brought to you by Guess Who Deep Gham the number one speech to text and text to speech API on the internet today trusted by the world's top conversational AI leaders startups and Enterprises like Spotify twilio NASA and Good Old City Bank in this episode we're joined by Bowen the CEO and co-founder of Wonder way how you doing Bowen great thanks for having me so you have a fascinating story that I want to get into you started off your journey in Oz born there you moved to Europe but you also did something that I think is a little atypical for a lot of the people that we talked to on the show and you were educated with a business background you were being a PM and it was a little bit of from what I understand a soul sucking job and in 2016 you had a moment where you said I can't do this anymore I've got to change something tell me about that moment yeah I think I in 2016 I went through a bit of a midlife crisis I think I was only 27 at the time so maybe an early midlife crisis mustaches didn't work motorcycles didn't work yeah a few things happen I mean my as you said I was I was at a having a bad time at my job also went through a horrible breakup um moved over to the other side of the world for for a girl that didn't work out and I was yeah trying to figure out what to do myself I found myself on the other side of the world trying to figure out what to do um and yeah my sort of founding story started sitting in my bedroom with a pen and a paper um sitting down trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and and I decided I wanted to start a company um and I was trying to find the right balance between doing something that was good for people um where I could also make some money off so I wanted to build something successful as well and F really hard about it and came to the conclusion that edtech was was the area that I was most excited about and um yeah literally just starting there then I just forged a path so started educating myself on the topic um found a co-founder who was interested in the same space and we're iterating a lot of different ideas and it landed on this idea around helping um employees to build self-directed learning Parts using the um budgets that companies were offering them for learning so um the company did did all right we we raised an initial precede round and we got our first paying customers on board um but we found that we weren't able to scale the company because we um we couldn't really prove the impact that the training was having and it was um really fell in this like nice to have category it was really more seen as a perk for the for the employees um so when we realized the business wasn't working out we were trying to figure out I was still very determined to stay in edtech and corporate learning and we're trying to figure out what the biggest problem was in this space So speaking to our existing customers and others um and everyone was pointing at the sales teams so um everybody said that that was kind of the the biggest need for training and learning um so we pivoted um started a new company um but with the same team um focusing on Building Sales Training products um with a key sort of vision to prove the impact of the training so um solving the problem we had in the last compan the the whole idea was that we hook into CRM systems like Salesforce or HubSpot and we use that data to measure the impact or identify gaps the Reps have and then measure the impact the training is having on um their conversion rates and revenue so most training products out there they're doing you know quizzes and Page views and things like that but we were really looking at like what is the actual impact on on the revenue in the organization um yeah and this worked out much better for us so we've now been working on this for about five years um uh raise the seed round um build the business up um but I think we we still ran into one key challenge with this um product in that the CRM data is still quite limited and what you can do with it it's still quite high level um and a lot of our customers were asking us if we could unlock insights out of the sales calls that reps were having because this is really the you know they know that there's a lot of interesting information sitting on the sales call some of the most valuable data is there um but they don't nobody has time to listen to the the sales calls to to score them and and capture that so people were asking us for this um they're using tools like gong and chorus like other conversation intelligence tools but it wasn't giving them what they needed um and yeah when we saw chbt come onto the scene large language models get released um you know especially when it hit beginning of 2023 we finally saw a way to do this um so the key idea we around this time we launched our second product an AR sales coach um that basically sits on sales calls and auto scores calls to see you know what are the main strength and weaknesses the sales reps following the right process what are the main strengths and weaknesses um gives them give sales reps instant feedback off the calls and then also Aggregates the data across all the calls for the management team so they can see you know what are the key um insights that are happening across the calls what are the main strengths and weaknesses for reps and across their entire team that they need to work on um so yeah that's in a nutshell my story and and kind of how that fits into the the company the two products we built and the company the company vision what attracts you to the education space so as I said it's really about um being able to help people like I think something that I've found now I've been doing startups what since 2016 2017 um so I've been doing it for seven or8 years now and it's really hard like it's it's really tough especially you know the last couple of years going through covid ups and downs there um going through this Tech recession over the last few years there's some really tough times and it's just so so important that you like do you love to do what you what you love you love what you're doing um to get you through those tough times like for me personally um I just really enjoy speaking to people every day about you know what are their goals what do they want to learn on what do they want to learn and how are they getting better like it's all about their personal development you know setting goals for themselves where they what they're not happy with today and where they want to go and that's just super rewarding like even when things are tough having those conversations all the time is good like for me personally like nothing against anyone's working in the space I think I'd find it very difficult to build like a fintech product where you're talking to people about about money every day like it's just not something that that is personally very engaging for me um but talking about people's you know goals and aspirations and and how we can help them is is super rewarding and so now with this sales co-pilot and the ability to plug into CRM I think one thing that you said that stood out to me is that you're really trying to make it tangible you're trying to have it very clear as to what someone can do to generate more revenue for the company can you break that down a little bit more and why that is like your key metric yeah I mean I think it comes back to as I said then most um most training products out there they're measuring the impact of the training based on page views and quiz scores right but there's absolutely no correlation there with what impact that's having on people's performance um afterwards in fact like we see I've seen a lot of training products out there where the key metric is um you know time spent on training whereas in corporate learning that's probably the worst metric you can have I think that yeah the least amount of training you can do for the maximum amount of performance is like the best thing like you don't want to take people away from their jobs right you want them to to jump in there learn what they need and then get out and put it into practice and get get the result fast um so I just think that a lot of the the whole mentality that a lot of these training products have is wrong and and to be honest not just the products like it's also the L&D leaders enablement leaders like we speak to customers all the time and they were pushing us to put these sorts of things into the product like tracking page views tracking time on page and we were saying well we don't care about that and and you shouldn't either like what you should be looking at is you know are people getting better and are they closing more deals and are they making more money like that's ultimately how every sales person is measured um and ultimately you know how the head of sales and the leadership team's measured as well so if you not focused on Revenue then you're not you know you're misaligned with the goals of the sales team in my opinion yeah have you been able to do any studies on how much more Revenue people are closing or how how much better people are because of this yeah yeah of course I mean that's the number one metric we're reporting back so we look at we look at it in um three main metrics so for onboarding we're looking at reduction in ramp time so the time it takes a sales rep from the day they join to close their first deal or or hit their quot um for the upscaling we're looking at increasing conversion rates and for the coach we're looking at um increase in conversion rates but we're also looking at adherence to to a Playbook or a process as an ear indicator to that um so for all of these we've got case studies like we've reduced ramp Time by um 60 60% for some companies um we've change we've increased conversion rates by 40% for teams um so yeah it's having a massive impact um and again like I think that having this Focus like aligning oursel with the the the main metrics that matter of the sales teams has helped us in sales because it allows us to elevate the conversation like if we're stuck with a with a um L&D person who's focused on quiz scores and Page views you know we're probably speaking to the wrong person who's not going to be the buyer anyway like being able to focus the conversation on the main metrics gets us to the right person who's usually the budget holder and also allows us to have the right conversations at renewal so we can actually show them like hey since you started using Wonder way here's how much more money you've made as a result like here's the the results like and then that renewal conversation for the next year is also much easier so I think that's something we've been traditionally quite good at is like starting with smaller deals and then proving ourselves over the first couple of months or a year and then and then using that to then close a bigger deal in the second year um which is great for SAS like the net revenue retention is something that you know looks really good for investors when you're expanding clients one thing that I do love about this idea is how closely tied you are to revenue and how easy it is to prove value because there's a lot of tools out there that are abstractly trying to say that they're saving you money or they're making you money with this it feels like it's very clear look I got your sales team anytime you bring someone on we can cut the onboarding time in half which means they're closing deals much faster and that's bringing you more money or the people that you already have on the team they're closing more deals which is bringing you more money so when you thought about a pricing strategy on this I can see how on one hand it would be easy just to do like a seat based pricing with like SAS but then on the other hand it's like there's actual value happening here so are you thinking about like a percentage of take of that value taking a percentage of that value or is it how so I guess the question is how are you pricing this product yeah yeah it's a good it's good question so I me we thought a lot about this in the end we do do seat based pricing um the main reason being there's kind of two reasons first of all we're still competing against traditional training products so I think there's like a ceiling to what we can charge here especially for new customers because we're still stuck in like in like a mental framework a mental model of like what a training production cost and I think you know we do charge more than than any of the other like learning management systems on the market but I don't think we can charge 10 times more because I think people kind of bark at that so I think we kind of stuck there um the other thing that we found is that like we've looked at doing like Revenue shares or something with customers but it is still quite risky because at the end of the day we can build the training we can help them build the training programs we can set the metrics we can do all that but it's still comes down to them whether they're going to follow the training programs and I think that's quite a big risk with you know for any I guess you know for any companies that you can set the right goals for people you can set up the right training program but do they then follow up through on it and make sure and not all of our customers do and I think that's also a big risk for us so we have done it with some customers like had um goals over the first three to six months where we've pushed higher prices and and like looked at rev share but I think it is it is inherently risky to do this um across all of the customer base um so yeah but it's good it's a good question it's something that we think about a lot actually is is um how can we because I think it's nice like it's aligning everyone together but then you need to I don't think you can do it for every customer you sign you need to find the right ones who are committed to to following through as well it's also dangerous if you're trying to do it on a REV share model the product of the customer that you're selling to actually has to be good and the sales from that customer actually have to happen so you can get yourself into hot water by selling selling to a team who doesn't sell and there's too many open questions and things that you cannot control right so I can understand going against that it almost feels like yeah maybe just to get in you have one pricing and then once you're in and people are seeing value then you say okay now we're going to do it off of a r sh yeah because you have I imagine you have the numbers like hey here's your average sale price and so if we can help you do x amount more of those that means that we're helping you make y dollars and so we charge uh 10% of those y dollars or whatever it may be then it's a very clear mathematical equation but I also understand that right now it it's also like you're looking at the positioning and is it a training tool is it a sales co-pilot is it um something that the sales team is buying or the learning team is buying and you find yourself in uh like playing with all of those variables yeah I think something that's worth also mentioning here I talked about how we evolved and we had the training product and some of the gaps here L us to the the coach um another like key thing that we learned from the first product we built was that you know what we're doing we're still doing content Based training so like we would use the CRM data to identify Gap that a rep had we'd recommended training from our catalog and then we would look at the conversion rates and revenue like a few weeks later to see if there was a difference but what we were finding is there's a lot of like variation in the data especially over the last couple of years where the econom has been all out of whack so we kind of went like training happened and then results happened but we couldn't necessarily draw the concrete line from from training to revenue and that's what the coach can do now as well so I think it's filling that missing gap of like training happens um and now what we can actually see is do the sales reps change their behavior on the calls so do they actually act differently do we see that they're speaking about the product in a different way or they're handling negotiations in a different way and then what impact does that have on on um on the revenue so I think that was always the missing piece and something that we've been struggling with and I think all training training products struggle with is that just because someone passes the training um and even if they can pass a quiz or an assessment or a role play do do they actually change their behavior um when they're in front of a customer and that's been the missing piece of the puzzle and that's what's now possible Right is the only way of figuring that out before was to literally have a sales trainer or coach or an enablement person sitting down and reviewing calls one by one um and and you know scoring them manually but now with large language models you can have this them do this for you um so they can literally you know basically fill the role of the the coach or at least this administrative part of like scoring the calls and seeing what the what how people are behaving on the calls so that's just been like a major breakthrough that wasn't possible a year and a half ago walk me through what the product actually looks like and if I have my sales team and I want them to level up I want to start selling more what do I do I work with you to create the training course to show my sales team the specific type of sales that I want them to be doing or is there already a standard package given and then there's also a co-pilot that joins their calls to see if they're going through it so it's two different products we have the the LMS like training product and then we have the coach um our vision is to combine them together but right now they're separate um and yeah let's maybe let's talk more about the coach because I think that's more relevant as well for for like this AI discussion and that's why we're using deep gr as well um so the idea behind the product is that um the coach will like the coach will join the calls with the sales reps um so basically we'll record the call that the sales rep is having with the customers we'll transcribe it using digram and then we'll analyze the text to score it and give feedback to the to the sales rep um so the way that it works is that we have in terms of like the the main setup process is um seeing how we score the calls so um we have like a bunch of templates off the shelf around all the major sales methodologies like spin selling spice B medic I don't know if you know any of these these like these sales methodologies so you can use those templates off the shelf but pretty much all of our customers um customize it for their own sales process so they have a slightly different um Playbook that they apply to like their call calls versus the discovery calls versus demos negotiations and they can customize like what are the metrics what are the metrics or the steps that they want to score those calls on and that the coach will basically listen into the calls and score them against those criteria so um I think where it's especially helpful is like um you know working with companies who you know maybe just raised a series A or a series B um they've hired a bunch of people in the team and they have a a clear sales process they want the Reps to follow um and it's about making sure everyone is sort of Performing up to a certain standard so you know if you've got a new Joiner who's has you know just joined the team um and you have a Playbook you want them to follow then trying to get them as quickly as possible up to that you know maybe I think for lot of our customers are not necessarily trying to expect everyone to be at 10 out of 10 but they want everyone to be following a process they can get them to seven or an eight out of 10 um consistently and there's nothing quite like having that like instant feedback after every call to to refine I mean again before the only way to do this would be the managers may be riding along On the calls maybe they're listening to One Call a week but person at best um whereas now we're able to do it for every single call the rep is taking so they can like iterate on those calls and get better every time um so that's probably like where we've seen the most success is with these bigger companies you know bigger sales teams clear processors um but if you're also like a startup who's just starting out in sales maybe you're a a technical founder who's getting sales for the first time if you don't have that process in place you can also use the product using the templates we have off the shelf and I think that will already help you to you know if you want to align yourself around a certain methodology um I think it'll give you great feedback straight away but yeah the most value is for the Enterprise clients who have that who customize it for their own playbooks yeah I know a lot of sales consultants and coaches that do the same thing and really what they're doing is at the end of the day listening to calls giving feedback and in a way this feels like something that could help them a ton because they can put their methodology into Wonder way and that sales coach they can see at a glance what the score is they can probably go to the relevant Snippets and then listen to those and then give concrete feedback directly on that snippet and it doesn't need to be okay I've got a sales team of 10 people I'm trying to listen to 10 20 hours of calls a week at 2X and then give my overview of it and try and give that feedback that's just not sustainable the reality is Nobody Does it right like I think every sales leader knows that they should be I had the same when I I was leading with my sales team I told them I was going to listen to call a week and I I probably was doing one a month at best I mean especially if you take that example you're a sales manager with 10 reps they're doing probably somewhere between 10 to 20 calls each so that's 100 to 200 calls a week and you're one person like it's not possible like you can't you can't physically do it um you know and again I think it's I think listening to the calls is just it's something that's important but it's not urgent so it's always one of the things like you know it's always a thing that gets pushed in a manager's diary right like they they know they want to spend a day a week listening to calls and giving feedback but you know there's something on fire and and there's a slot blocked in the calendar it's always the first thing to go so I think like you know what we do right now is we don't replace the role of the manager I think the manager should still be having the conversations with the Reps Hing them improve but we do save them the time on sitting down and scoring those calls I think eventually maybe AI gets good enough that it can you know start to provide much more personalized coaching but right now I think you know the main value we're adding here is scoring the call saving the manager's time and helping to identify the main strength and weaknesses for each person that that manager can then work on with their their sales rep um so it's not replacing the role of the manager but it should be saving them you know tons of time every week um and and you know doing these doing these important but but not urgent tasks I think that's what AI is the best thing for actually is is doing people dirty work for them uh he doing the Dirty Work that that they can't get around to that's perfect that's the stuff that you want to Outsource to toi know exactly so Bowen where can people learn more and figure out how to level up their sales team yeah so um jump on our website Wonder way. um or you can catch me on LinkedIn so um just my name bow and Moody at LinkedIn and feel free to DM me um and yeah happy to chat about this as I said love talking to people about about about this every day so please reach out if you're interested excellent I appreciate this\n"