Welcome to Talking Cars

We're excited to dedicate this week's podcast to all of your questions. Jennifer and Ryan are here, along with special guest Mike Crossen, who has recently gained extensive knowledge about Electric Vehicles (EVs) and batteries.

We've received a variety of questions from our audience, but we'll start with Larry from Allen, Texas, who asked if it's true that the batteries in new EVs need to be replaced every five years at a cost of over $10,000. Mike Crossen is here to answer this question.

Yeah, my whole world has sort of turned into EV recently. Jake calls EVs the disruptor of the whole market, anyway. I had to learn some new things, but they're very interesting. Larry, that's really good question. It would sort of be like, I'm going to buy this gasoline car. Do I have to replace the engine? It's a possibly big and expensive prospect. But you don't know. They don't have to be replaced. Sure, there could be a problem with the battery, and it might need to be replaced. There's no guarantees.

We're not seeing it, though. It does happen. There are EVs out there that have had to have that done. But we're not seeing all that common. We don't have a bunch of cars in our fleet that need to have batteries replaced and things like that. And yeah, there could be some costs associated with it. The good news is there are warranties on these cars, like all systems in the car.

Eight-year, 100,000 mile is the federal requirement to sell an electric vehicle. That's what you have to cover the battery. California's doing a little better - 10 years, 100,000 miles. And I wouldn't be surprised if maybe some states in the future sort of up that as well to meet the California standard.

If you're out of that warranty period, yeah, you're going to be responsible if you do want to fix the vehicle. And it could be a pricey proposition. It depends on the car. It depends on the size of the battery and where you are. Labor rates vary and things like that. Do you go new? Do you go used? Do you go refurbished?

And yeah, I could definitely see it costing $10,000 or more. I would almost hate to think what a Mercedes EQE or a BMW i-series battery would cost. Right. Could be quite a bit more. At that point, yeah, you might be looking at a new vehicle versus replacing that battery. So it is a concern, but not every five years. Absolutely.

And if you were in that five-year range, it's going to be covered unless you've done 80,000 or 100,000 miles in California within that time, so right. I wonder what they're seeing for length on these batteries. They've been around a while, but not like 20 to 30 years. Maybe, what? Tesla's 10 years, probably at least.

But it really depends on how you use the car, how you treat the car, how you charge it. We had an article recently that talks about 2% degradation in range - right. Over time, yeah. Battery capacity over time. Or should I say about 2% every year? So you can maybe extrapolate that out.

If you do a lot of DC fast charging, but also to your colleague Larry, there are other reasons to consider or not consider an EV. But I think it's more about the suitability to your lifestyle, access to charging, et cetera, not necessarily will the battery fail in five years? So anyway, thank you. Mike, you know far more than I do for sure.

Our second question comes from Gene...

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enHi, and welcome to Talking Cars.I'm Jennifer Stockburger.I'm Ryan Pszczolkowski.I'm Michael Crossen.And we didn't run out ofcars, but we certainlyhave lots of audience questions.So we're going to dedicatethe podcast this weekto all of the questionsyou've been asking,a variety of topics.So I'm glad you two are here.As always, if youhave questions,send them totalkingcars@icloud.com, text,video, whatever suits you.These happen to be allwritten questions this week.And we will start withLarry from Allen, Texas, whoasks, recently, a colleague saidshe had decided against buyinga new EV, Electric Vehicle,because the batteries haveto be replaced every five yearsat a cost of over $10,000.Is that true?We are going to goto you, Mike Crossen,because you have a veryrecent extra education in EVand batteries and all of it.So we're going to letyou talk to Larry.Yeah, my whole world has sortof turned into EV recently.Jake calls EVs the disrupterof the whole market, anyway.Yeah.I had to learn some new things,but they're very interesting.And Larry, that's areally good question.And I think it's a questionthat a lot of peoplewould want to know.It'd sort of be like, I'mgoing to buy this gasoline car.Do I have to replace the engine?It's a possibly bigand expensive prospect.But you don't know.They don't have to be replaced.But sure, there could be aproblem with the battery,and it might needto be replaced.There's no guarantees.Right.We're not seeing it, though.It does happen.There are EVs out there thathave had to have that done.But we're not seeingall that common.We don't have a bunchof cars in our fleetthat need to have batteriesreplaced and things like that.And yeah, there could be somecosts associated with it.The good news is there arewarranties on these cars,like all systems in the cars.But eight-year, 100,000 mileis the federal requirement.So that's the dotgov requirementto sell an electric vehicle.That's what you haveto cover the battery.California's doinga little better--10 years, 100,000 miles.Right.And I wouldn't be surprisedif maybe some statesin the future sortof up that as wellto meet the California standard.If you're out ofthat warranty period,yeah, you're goingto be responsibleif you do want tofix the vehicle.And it could be apricey proposition.It depends on the car.It depends on the size of thebattery and where you are.Labor rates vary andthings like that.Do you go new?Do you go used?Do you go refurbished?And, yeah, I could definitelysee it costing $10,000 or more.I would almost hate to thinkwhat a Mercedes EQE or a BMWI-something battery would cost.rightCould be quite a bit more.At that point,yeah, you might belooking at a new vehicleversus replacing that battery.So it is a concern, but--Not every five years.--not every fiveyears, absolutely.And if you were inthat five-year range,it's going to becovered unless you'vedone 80,000 or 100,000 milesin California within that time,so.Right.I wonder what they're seeingfor length on these batteries.They've been around a while,but not like 20 to 30 years.Maybe, what?Tesla's 10 years,probably at least.But it really depends on howyou use the car, how you treatthe car, how you charge it.We had an article recentlythat talks about 2%degradation in range--Right.Over time, yeah.--battery capacity over time.Or should I sayabout 2% every year.So you can maybeextrapolate that out.If you do a lot ofDC fast charging,it's going to be more.If you drive a lot anddo a lot of charging,it's going to be more.If you charge to 100%, it'sgoing to be a little bit more.But, yeah, time will still tell.They're still pretty new.Our parking lot is startingto fill up with them.Yeah, we'll know inabout 10 years from now.Yeah, for sure.But listening to you,it's very parallel toan internal combustion engine.Over time, you may befacing large repairs.I think of transmissionsand things like thatthat you have to weigh, isit worth keeping the car,or is it worth doing it?And I certainly thinklistening to our reliability,it is not the norm forfull battery replacement.It can happen, to your point.It absolutely can happen.And I know some manufacturersare actually repairing them.If there's a bad cellor bad group of cells,they can go in and replace that.So you don't need thewhole pack necessarily.But again, it'sstill pretty new.And cars have beenaround for wellover 100 years,these EVs about 10.But really it's thelast couple of years,they've become very prevalent.So it is a concern.I would just say know whatthe warranty on it is.If you're buying a new one,there's a little less concernthere.If you're buying somethingpreowned, what that mileage is,know what the originalin-service date of that carwas.So if Ryan wasthe first buyer, Ineed to know whatdate you bought thatbecause that 8-year markor 10-year mark to the daythat I would beworking off of if Iwas the second or thethird owner of the vehicle.You don't want it if I had it.He's a DC fast charger.But also, to yourcolleague, Larry,there are other reasons toconsider or not consider an EV.But I think it's moreabout the suitabilityto your lifestyle, accessto charging, et cetera,not necessarily will thebattery fail in five years?So anyway, thank you.Mike, you know far morethan I do for sure.Our second questioncomes from Gene.\"Why is it that othercountries can get the same trimand models of carswe have in the US,yet they get betterwarranties or more featuresin the same trim level?The new Honda Accord, in Canada,gets blind spot monitoringon every trim level.But when I was shoppingfor the same car here,I noticed you have to goup to a higher trim for it.Shouldn't such afeature be includedon the same trim regardlessof the country it'sbeing purchased in?\"So I'm going to takethis one for Gene.And the answer--the short answer--is, if it's asafety benefit, yes.But that is notthe way it works.So typically, it's eitherrequirements, federal standardsthat require things, or someconsumer information program,not unlike our own, orthe Insurance Institute,or the NCAP programs.There's a Europeanone, there's a US NCAPthat drive these thingsahead of federal mandatesthat say they have to be in.We just did-- Emily and I havebeen working on this rear seatsafety thing.And there was great examples.Emily has created a slide thatshows, probably, 20 vehicles,those that have betterfeatures in Europe,those that have equal featuresto the same model in the US,and those that havebetter features in the US.Well, let me just tell you,on that slide she created,there are no vehicles thathave better features in the US.Many have more features,safety-related,in Europe that are not here.And the great example is, in theEuro NCAP program, for example,they put a dummy in therear seat of that vehicle.So that crash test--if they add someof the seat beltfeatures that we've been talkingabout in this rear seat safety,they do better inthat crash test.So if they don't, they won't.So there's an internalincentive in Europefor them to put things likepretensioners and forcelimiters in thosecars to do better.We don't have thoserear-seated dummiesyet in our NCAP program.The Insurance Institute just putthat rear seat dummy in theremoderate overlap crash test.So we expect to seesome of those features.It's almost-- and Idon't want to soundtoo disparaging tothe manufacturers.They won't do itunless they have towith some of these features.But to answer Gene'squestion, yes, they should be.And that's certainly part ofwhat we, at Consumer Reports,are advocating all the time.We should see automaticemergency brakingwith pedestrian detection,not just on every car,but on every trim of that car.So Gene, you are literallypreaching to the choir.I don't know if you guyshad anything to add.But we even see it in thiscountry in different regions,that cars will beequipped differently.Right.I was thinkingabout the regions.Certainly, safety stuff shouldjust be in all the cars.But as a technician,we used to see a car--wherever you are, a carthat's a California carhas some differentemissions systems.Or maybe a car that did comefrom Canada, whether someone'son vacation or they movedhere-- and parts area little more difficult to get.You have to deal withthe country codesbecause it's a colder climate.So the car has some differentsystems and things like that.But safety stuff, I think,absolutely, should be-- youshould have the best availableno matter where you are.But certainly some of thoseother kind of funny options--you don't necessarilyneed the best AC systemif you live somewherereally cold.So they have some optionsand things like that.But yeah, I think it'san excellent question.All-wheel drive in NewEngland, we see a lot of thatthat you can't get elsewhere.Every once in a while, we needto get a front-wheel driveversion.We can't find it.So great question, Gene,and definitely real.I think of the simpletop tether that'son child seats,required in Canada,that they use it, not requiredin the US, simple safetythings.Slightly off topic, but--Go.--I feel like Europeand other countriesused to always get the more funversions of sports cars too.Like, it would alwaysbe like the M3,but they had theextra horsepower.A lot of that was due tolike our emissions and stuff.It's regional, you know?Absolutely, betterbumpers too, or at leastmore aestheticallypleasing bumpers.Right, yeah.Exactly, yeah.But they also have roadsthey can use them on.It's different.It's just different.Different-- different driving,different requirements.So great question, Gene.Third question comes from Bill.\"I've read that as treadwears on tires--\" Ryan--\"the wet stopping distancesincrease more slowlyon higher-quality versuslower-quality tires.When shopping fortires, how can Iknow whether they will retaingood wet stopping distancesover the tire's life?\"Definitely for you.Sure.And Bill's read correctly here.It's real.It's a real thing.Some years ago, we actuallydid some testing ourselveson some just regular performanceall-season tires on a ToyotaCamry.We shaved them down actually.We actually shaveddown the treadto get them to 4/32, whichis getting pretty worn.And we did some wet testing.And these were tiresthat had this technology?Well, some yes, some no.OK, sorry.We were investigating becausesome of the manufacturersare arguing--we test brand-new tires, right?Right.And they're going toperform differentlywhen they're brand-new asopposed to when they'reworn, or even half worn.So we did-- we wantedto find out ourselves.Now, wearing out a tirecompletely, or halfway,takes a long time,a lot of effort.So we shaved them.We are missing out onsome of the aging effects,but we did get-- wedid remove tread.And as you do that, youlose some of those grooves,or sipes, the littleslits in the tires.Those are the things-- thoselittle sipes and stuff,those give you the wet traction.They help give you wet traction,snow traction, ice braking.It's a mechanical gripadvantage for the tire.And edge.Yeah.So as a tire wears,you lose those.Now, when they make atire, it goes in a mold.And they have to pull thisthing out of a mold eventually.So you can't do-- you can'tdo too much crazy stuff.But luckily, Michelinhas-- they discovered a wayto make this-- they havethis EverGrip technology.They put it out some years ago.And that's kind ofwhere we startedinvestigating this situation.And they actually wereable to build these sipesand grooves that actually openup even more as a tire wears.So that's remarkable.Because, A, that's hardto get it out of a mold.I'm trying to wonder how theywould get it out of the mold.It must collapse or something.Yeah, they would nottell us, but theysaid it was a trick to do.But they figured out a way todo that, along with compounding.Compounding's huge.So they figured outa way to do that.And we tested it, and it works.They retain-- they'restill losing their grip,but they retained it a lotbetter than tires that didn't.So yeah, Michelin'sa premium brand.You're going to pay more moneyfor that type of technology.I don't know of too manyother companies marketingthat actual technology.They might be doing it anyway.But to answer his questionthough, it's hard to know.Because as they wear--we don't test them halfworn, or completely worn,or anything like that.But it is true thatthey do lose their grip.And the best thing you can dois just kind of pay attentionto that while you're driving.And you can buy a Michelin.This isn't aMichelin commercial.But they do havethat technology,and it does workfrom what we've seen.And to your point, thecompounding-- so muchis in the compoundingthat you will never know.As some people say to usall the time, they're round.They're black.You're never goingto know what'sin that compound to helpimprove even aging effects.You know, does itstay grippy over time.Yeah, there's that aspect too.And we didn't-- we weren't ableto capture that just because itwould take forever.But the tires will dry out too.The rubber dries out eventually.That affects it as well.Yeah.I think, too, for anybody,regardless of where you live,you're going to getrain at some point.To me, that's the best indicatorof when your tires are wearingand you should bethinking about, eh.Because I've nowhydroplaned in this one spotthat I don't think I'vehydroplaned before.To me, it's thebest early indicatorof when you needtire replacement.But yeah, another good question.All right, next onecomes from John.\"Several manufacturersnow provide48-volt mild hybridversions of their cars.What's the warranty coveragelike for these batteries?Full hybrids likethe Toyota Venzahave very high-voltagebatteries thatare required by law to coveras they are seen as partof their emissions control.But when I asked a manufacturerabout the 48-volt ones,I was told they are only coveredby the general car warranty.Can you explain why theymight draw this distinction?Seems to me they basicallyserve the same purpose.\"Again, I am lookingat you, Mike.Sure, so this--we're always usedto having a 12-voltbattery in a car.And while cars still have that,we're getting away from that.14 to 16 volts is becominga little bit more normalin just a lot of vehicles.But a lot of cars, gasolinecars, have this 48-volt system.And the real reason is youcan do more work with 48 voltsthan you can with 12.So we can run biggerelectrical accessorieswith just sort of lessstrain on a systemby increasing the voltage.And basically,like AC compressoris a big one, andstarter motors,especially for stop-starttechnology and thingslike that.Because of their draw?Yeah, the current draw.And we basically justget a bigger push.We can have smaller wires,less weight, less cost,all those things.Now, as far as thisbeing an emission system,you'd wonder, how isthis-- just basically whatlooks like just sort of abigger car battery, how is thatan emission system?But because we canrun the AC compressor,and we can turn thecar off at stoplights,and things like that,we are saving fuel.So technically, I wouldaccept the argumentthat this is an emission system.And I think thefederal government hasaccepted that argument as well.I did some research on this.And I'm not surewhat manufacturerJohn spoke to when he got theinformation that it's justthe regular warranty.But everything Ifound, this basicallyfalls under that federalemissions warranty or stateemissions warranty.And eight-year, 80,000-mile isthe number that I kept comingback to.I suppose there's maybean exception to that.But the few manufacturers I justcalled out, just that I knew,that had 40-voltsystems in them,everything looked likeeight-year, 80,000.And so you're saving fuel.It is an emissions concern.So they lump it intothat emissions warranty.I would just saymaybe the personthat John spoke to wasjust unaware of it,just sort of made a guessrather than knowing the answer.Or I used to work ina service department.It's kind of rough to-- you'resupposed to be the expert.And sometimes you get aquestion you just don't know.So it's like, Iwould always say,you know what, that'sa great question.I don't know.Let me get yournumber and email.And I'll look it upand get back to you.I'd rather providethe real informationthan just what I thinkoff the top of my headas long as I can help it.But that is sometimesa difficult position.You're trying to sellsomeone some work,and they have a question.You're like, Idon't really know.And the expectationthat you are the expert,you know every ins and outs ofevery vehicle on your list--But this 40-volt thingis a lot more commonin just regular internalcombustion engine cars.We have several out in thegarage right now that have it.And it's something thetechnicians are going to dealwith, and people as well.If you have toreplace that battery,it is going to be more thana regular 12-volt battery.And they're gettingup in price too,several hundreddollars in some cases.And again, I just did acouple of quick searches.It could be maybe $2,000,in the neighborhoodof that for one ofthese 40-volt batteriesif, in fact, it doesneed to be replaced.But again, eight-year,80,000-mile--so that's sort of aconcern down the road.And might you have to dealwith that at some point?Yeah, absolutely.If you keep cars a long time--back to the original questionfrom Larry.Absolutely, yeah.It just depends on how youuse the car and sort of whatyour tolerance for it is.You are going to save some moneyon fuel and things like that.So if you think about, Idrove this car for 10 years.I probably saved abunch of money on gas.Yeah, I got to put it on thebattery in this car that'sexpensive.But in the end, you mighthave a-- you might still bepositive on that transaction.Right.Are they bigger?I haven't noticed or looked.Is the battery a lot bigger?So it is a littlebit bigger in size.Some of them, they areputting them under rear seats,or under the floor,or in trunks.Yeah, they're not meant to beserviceable like your 12-volt,right?Yeah, because theydon't want to-- theywouldn't want you tryingto jump-start to itor something like that.So it kind of lookslike a regular battery.But for packaging'ssake, sometimes it'smaybe not so rectangularor things like that.So it sounds like, John,you may want to do somedouble-checking, either--Absolutely, yeah.--of that.And I would talk tothe service department.If you talk to thesales department,they might be unaware.Or even a parts departmentmight be unaware.Just get a serviceadvisor on the phone.Or better yet, stop by and justsay, hey, I have a concern.This is the car I have.What can you tell me?Great.Great.Perfect.Question from Steve.\"My 2016 Subaru Outback gets 29miles per gallon in the warmestsummer months and dropsto 22 miles per gallonin the dead of winter,about a 32% difference.Isn't that about thesame drop in rangewe're seeing withEVs in the cold?I'm curious to getyour take on thisand why no one evertalks about it.\"Ryan?Yeah, I mean, it's a real thing.EVs, it's been very clear tous that you lose a lot of rangewhen it gets cold.The cold is a battery'sworst enemy really,and the heat too,for that matter.But the cold is goingto take your range away.But in a gasoline internalcombustion engine car,you might not thinkof it, but youare-- because it doesn't seemas severe because your rangedoesn't just plummet.You are going to-- you'lluse more fuel in the winterthan you will in the summer.Now, his figures are abit aggressive, I think.I'm not saying he's wrong.But we did somequick calculationswith John, Big Johnand I, in our database.And we actually putin some numbers.So when we do our fuel testing,we keep it between 32--above freezing, 32 degrees, upto, I think, under 90 or 80.We did it from 32 to 80.And we put in two differentnumbers, just fake numbers,to see--In the calculation.In the calculation.Because what happens is on ourhighway test, we actually--we have a correction factorto adjust for what he's-- whatSteve's talking about.So we saw-- from 32degrees up to 80,we saw only reallylike a 9% difference.And our correctionfactor correctsfor that to keep it alevel playing field.Now, when we doour fuel testing,we don't run theair conditioning.We don't run anything.And we have the windows closed.We're giving it a best casescenario for the car really.Right.But that being said, theregular person driving outin the roads, in the winter,you have your heat on.You're not really pullingenergy out of the enginebecause you're just usingresidual heat from the engine,right?And the fan justblows it at you.In the summer, you havethe air conditioning on.That's a separatesystem that's actuallytaxing the engine, whichis using more fuel.So you're-- that addsto it too in a way,in the reverseway though, right?Because now it's summer.But in the winter,you have-- especiallyin all-wheel-drive car, youhave-- when you first take off,the car is cold.You're going to run a longerwarm-up or high idle modeto get the car upto temperature.The differentials--this sounds silly.The differentialshave oil in them.They're stiffer.It takes a little longerfor that to warm up.All these little things-- tirepressures drop a little bit.You're taxing thecar a little more.You're going to use more fuel.So it's absolutelytrue what he's seeing.It's a bit of--it seems a bit aggressive.But maybe there's other--there's a million variables,and his might be different.But I mean, I don't know if youhave something to add to that,Mike.But I think--No, I mean, it is avery real situation.And one of thethings is, if we justtalk about the winter fuel,they put some additives in itto help it atomize.Because when it's cold, the fueldoesn't want to basically sprayas well.And if you think about acan of maybe hairspray,you want that nice, fine mist.That's how the fuelburns efficiently.But as the hairspraymaybe gets cloggedand starts to kindof spit and stuff,the fuel doesn't want to burn.Because liquidfuel doesn't burn.So we need this fuelto atomize and out gasfor good combustion.But my first thought was--and I do this too.In the summer, I fire up a car,I throw it in gear, and I go.But in the winter,I fire up the car.And then I'm lookingfor the heated seatand trying to set the heater.I might be in the drivewayfor just a couple of minutes.And that does add up too.And that could contributeto this 32% difference.Plus, like you mentioned,all the transmission fluid,gear fluid--Stiffer, yeah.Tire pressure drops.The tires are-- thecompound of the tirecan change with temperature.And the rolling resistance,I think, could change.Summer tires get really noisy.And they tend to get hard.And you lose traction.So there's a lot of variables.And again, I agree, maybe32% is a little aggressive.But I don't knowwhere Steve lives,so I don't really know howcold it is where Steve lives.The extreme temperatures--the temperaturescan be much more extreme thanwhat I-- we looked at 32 to 80.Right, we cut it at 32.But that doesn't mean it's notcolder where Steve is, right?Exactly.It is true, yeah.It's worth mentioningtoo, Lisa, my experience.The whole country seemsto get winter fuel.It comes in October, November.They don't wantto differentiate.Correct.And you can still get that.You live in SouthFlorida, you're stillprobably getting winter fuel.So you're like, it'snot really that coldhere if it's in the 60s.But your fuel economy mightdrop off because of that.So just it's unfortunate.We do that for fuel emissions.We're using more fuel.But it helps the emissionsof what's actuallycoming out of the tailpipe.So there is a reason for that.I was noting too,Department of Energy,when we were doing theinvestig-- colder airis denser, increasingaerodynamic drag on a vehicle,especially at highway speeds.I never thoughtof just the drag.Yeah, absolutely.But that's part of itas well, as well asall the other things you said.That's why we doput the windows upwhen we do fuel economy testingbecause it's like dragginga parachute behind you.And I do a lot of the drivingfor fuel economy testing.So when it is that33, 34 degrees,you're cold in the car.You try to bundle up.And when it's 80degrees and sunny--You're sweating.--you sweat, yes.Yeah.I'd rather be coldthan the sweating.I've done the fuels many times.When it's hot, it's not fun,especially if it's humid.Yeah, but again, we takeall those variables outand give it, to your point,Ryan, the benefit of the doubt.And we still seethe differences.So the last questioncomes from Mike.Mike says, \"I picked up my2023 Honda CR-V recently--\"congratulations, Mike-- \"andhave one nagging problem Icannot figure out.How do I delete a radiostation from my favorites list?I was able to figureout how to save it.But I want to deleteseveral I added by mistake.Can you help me?\"So thankfully, we have anew 2023 Honda CR-V hybridin our garage.And I actually went outand gave this a try, Mike.And I agree with you.I don't think there'sa way to just deletea preset or a favorite.But you can change it.So certainly, once you havea preset that maybe youdon't want, or added bymistake in Mike's case,if you just hold it, getto the station you want,and then hold the preset,it will displace that presetwith the one you actuallywant as long as that'sthe one playing.And you can-- andit'll just displace it.And you can have-- ifyou truly don't want--I think there's 10or more on that.And you can scroll across.If you don't want them, youcan actually duplicate them.You can have thesame channel twiceif, maybe, you only wantedfive on each of the scrolls.But I agree with Mike.There isn't a way tojust delete, not that Icould find, only displace.So hopefully youfind that helpful.So that is it for this episode.Great questions,different topics.As always, keep them comingat TalkingCars@icloud.com.We'll get back to our regularcar coverage next week.This video wasfilmed and producedby David Abrams, AndrewBellis, and Anatoly Chomsky.Thank you always forlistening, for watching.And we'll see you next week.\n"