Roger Gracie - Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time _ Lex Fridman Podcast #343

The Importance of Taking Risks and Embracing Failure

Society often pressures people to conform and be like everyone else, making it easier for individuals to feel self-conscious about not fitting in. This can lead to people avoiding taking risks and trying new things, fearing that they might fail. However, failure is an essential part of the learning process, and it's often through failures that we grow and learn the most.

The Role of Resilience in Success

When individuals take risks and face challenges head-on, they develop resilience – the ability to bounce back from setbacks and keep moving forward. This resilience is crucial for success, as it allows people to learn from their mistakes and try again with renewed determination. By embracing failure and using it as an opportunity to grow, individuals can overcome obstacles and achieve their goals.

The Value of Love and Support

Love and support are essential components of personal growth and development. When individuals have a strong support system in place, they feel more confident and motivated to take risks and pursue their passions. This love and support can come from family members, teachers, or mentors, and it's often the absence of this love that can hold people back.

Failure as a Learning Experience

Failure is not the end of the world; it's a stepping stone to success. When individuals fail, they learn valuable lessons about themselves and what works for them. By failing repeatedly and learning from those experiences, people can refine their skills and develop the confidence they need to succeed. It's this mindset that separates successful individuals from those who are content with mediocrity.

The Power of Failure to Build Character

Failure has a profound impact on an individual's character, teaching them valuable lessons about perseverance, determination, and hard work. When people fail, they're forced to confront their own limitations and weaknesses, which can lead to personal growth and transformation. This process is essential for building strong character and developing the skills necessary to achieve success.

The Significance of Embracing Failure

Failure is not something to be ashamed of; it's a natural part of the learning process. By embracing failure and using it as an opportunity to grow, individuals can overcome obstacles and achieve their goals. It's this mindset that separates successful individuals from those who are content with mediocrity.

A Message from Haji Gracie

Jiu-Jitsu is simple: you just have to do it right. This philosophy extends beyond the mat, as it applies to all aspects of life. By embracing failure and using it as an opportunity to learn and grow, individuals can overcome obstacles and achieve their goals. As Haji Gracie so eloquently put it, "the only way to succeed is failing." This mindset is essential for building strong character and developing the skills necessary to achieve success.

In conclusion, taking risks and embracing failure are essential components of personal growth and development. By learning from our mistakes and using them as an opportunity to grow, individuals can overcome obstacles and achieve their goals. It's this mindset that separates successful individuals from those who are content with mediocrity.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enin my mind I have to tap everybody else winning is not enough the following is a conversation with hajir Gracie widely considered to be the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now to your friends here's hodger Gracie let's start with possibly the greatest match in Jiu Jitsu history your second match against buchesha let's go through the details let's go through the whole thing so the walk leading up to it you always do this walk it's epic walk you post on Instagram Hanzo posted on Instagram yeah this calm walk towards the mat well let's go to that match in particular what was going through your mind you've been away from competition facing probably one of the greatest and at that time many people consider the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time in bachatcha uh here's the old man the Old Timer getting back out there what were you thinking yeah I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I was in the favor to walk into a fight I have to say like a lot of people thought consider him the favorite I mean understandable you know I was out of competition for a while he was just winning everything so you know saying about the walk like for me you know the five stars way before the referees say go you know it's uh is all the focus on concentration that I think is very important for me to start before like you know I almost walk blind to the Met many times I passed like great friends and I couldn't see anyone you know they're trying to talk to you and I'm like I'm 100 focused on my opponent already even thought that I cannot even see him in front of me so I think that's what me was always uh very important to try to clear my mind out from everything are you visualizing the opponent I'm not just clearing not at that time is there what's what's in your head is it like a calm River with birds chirping what it's flank just blank Darkness yeah Darkness okay and that's what we see in that calmness it's just blankness how hard is it to achieve that blankness it's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt I try to Focus like that not to think because it's probably something you learn is the more you think the more nervous you get and there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities what you know what you can do what can go wrong what can go right because it's unpredictable you have absolutely no idea it's impossible to predict the fight and you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind it actually is pretty effective it is it makes you feel better it's you know you kind of control your emotion control the adrenaline on your body up to a level so it absolutely helps you you know focus in the fight I've learned that in Jiu Jitsu and in general in life that whenever something feels really shitty you can just like take that thought and not think about it yeah like I do that like on long runs or like a fast run or yeah in Jiu Jitsu especially not getting older out of shape like that feeling of exhaustion well you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion you could just not think about it yeah not think about being exhausted yeah just and that's somehow it relaxes you I think maybe in the face of exhaustion all the fears start to creep in maybe your muscles tighten up I don't know this is for the uh the amateur suggested person but it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it so you get as a black belt competitor you get used to you get good at letting go of any thoughts yeah for Innovation to exhaustion is I mean that's not the good example of it it's you know there's a lot of times in the fight you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired so it's like the last scene you want to think of it is how tight you are it doesn't matter because it doesn't but you're going to quit I mean it doesn't matter yes how tall you are it's yeah there's no value thinking about it there's no value it's you just have to go through it so when you're like uh you know many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do tying your belt catching your breath you're not thinking about anything you're trying to let go of thinking I'm trying to like to save everything to the file like nothing goes to waste it's you know every move unnecessary this is just going to make you more tired or it's going to take something out of you like you know I try to calculate every single Move I Make save as much energy as I can so I can fully you know be focused 100 in the fight with no way especially energy wise and that's instinctual like uh minimizing the amount of moves you're not like explicitly thinking should I do this or not it's just just don't move unless it's absolutely required yeah because fight these you you cannot really there's not really time to think much you know it's like it's just your instincts are playing it's like it's you know you already have your you know your weapons let's say you know you did the things that you do at is just you wait for the perfect moment the beauty of it is you know there's the right moment to everything if you feel one second too late it doesn't work no you get messy so it's you know you're trying to catch that moment that's his you know and for that you have to be fully focused in what you're doing because one second is you out it won't work but you're you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly so the so the moment it's not about how quickly you move it's about uh the right moment yeah yeah it's not like it's speed it's not like you have to move the spirit of life it's it's the move itself at that precise moment it doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving so perfect you know so it's it's a combination of moving between you and him I mean the same thing happens in in Judo and the movement can be really small yeah it's just Jude is a is a bit more explosiveness you know she's the moves are slightly faster so it did no it does require a bit more explosiveness in Judo but even just the right timing for an off balance yeah it's still a little tough yeah yeah it's not that they're you know moving the speed is not going to count that much yeah it's the timing that you initiate that move you see that with foot sweeps there's nothing more beautiful than uh like uh Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics and a person and it's just and you see one man's life flashed before his eyes and realized like I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find they don't they have this look on their face like I don't know what just happened it's beautiful to see you don't see that I guess you see that unboxing Knockouts and stuff like that you don't know what the hell just happened yeah is it that precise moment of movement that you get caught like is is that one Split Second that's it do you get that in Jiu Jitsu at all because Judo has because of the explosiveness because of the point scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws um has these moments where everything just turns on a single moment do you have that in Jiu Jitsu too not really because Dennis points is you get like you know two points so he's because I think regarding the submission it's not just one precise movement that changed everything I think Judo is the takedown that counts as a submission like keep on fight over Jujitsu don't have that so you will you will score points but I think in terms of submission you need to get to uh in a dominant position first and then the submission will come slowly it's a process yeah okay let's go back to that guy with his mind so actually in the weeks leading up to it in the days and the hours in the minutes is there some fear in you leading up to this I mean I'm not going to say you know that I'm fearless because everybody fears something you know the fear is there but it's like how much you like that controlled you I think I was a lot more confident than fearful that for sure walk into that fight like I I was pretty confident that yeah I could beat him was the source of that confidence my belief going on on me this okay I can take the word you can take anyone in the world but is there specific strategic like uh you know talking to Donahue he believes that there's no such thing as confidence like or rather the way you get confidence is through data like that you have proven yourself effective uh in previous situations but with buchacha you don't you don't have much data it was a very the first time you faced them was a very tough that was also one of the greatest matches of all time it was very tough so doesn't that creep in like that doubt because you know you don't have enough data to be confident based on uh yeah I mean okay if I never have fought before you know somebody walked into a fight with someone like that then would I be that confidence I mean probably no you know so that history of what you know what we've been doing or been achieving those gives you confidence if that was my first fight ever I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that much but the time off uh it doesn't matter it doesn't matter doesn't matter you don't have the fear or the actual physical experience the psychological experience of being Rusty of being honest that will come out on training so you okay so you simulate some aspect of that yeah I mean the trainer will tell you how you are okay did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this yeah I mean I've trained I train normal let's say compared to the first fight the second was a lot more confidence because you know like I said on training the training for the first fight they were terrible so what do you mean I think I was focusing MMA for a while for a couple months and I wasn't really focusing the ghee and you know by the time I accept the fight didn't start training like all my responses on training were off like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed I mean now they like they're beating me you know it's like I cannot beat them the way I I was used to but you know so I knew it was something was not right for the first fight but then it's like is it you know no points is submission or Draw so yeah for people who don't know it was the mother Morris which is a 20 minute match submission only so there's no the winner is determined only by submission otherwise it's the draw so physically I was I wasn't myself on that fight I was tired you know my body wasn't responding anyway so that so the conflict was different from the first the second I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me and I trust on my defense I'm confident enough for my defense that he will not top me out but in terms of winning you know walking to the second fight I was a lot more confident what can you say about that feeling when something's not right it's not a thing that breaks people these three breaks it's weird like people crack they give up you know this is is a big test because it's it's like being really tired it's the same thing it's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more there's not having nothing more to give so they just like give up it's too hard so what do you do just again take the thoughts out there's no giving up I mean I don't mind I don't care like you you're just giving up it's not enough it's not that's always the way you thought yeah about Jiu Jitsu yeah I I'm never gave up I mean I tapped it's you know not giving up it's not not typing that's just stupid especially you know doing training like it's I get caught I tap I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping I get you get angry you know it's train hard you know improve make it make yourself better you'll go caught accept that you made a mistake give up tap then try harder so you know the not tapping it's you're sacrificing your body and you know you'll never be the same like if you let your elbow popped the air will never ever be the same ever you let yourself go to sleep your resistant drops so this everybody has a has a limit of resistance until they you know to resist a choke before you pass out the moment that you you you go to sleep that resistance will dropped that's why I've never heard anyone say yeah that's awesome so that's true so tap this so that's the reason because people usually say it's no you can somebody is the same or you're getting knocked out you get knocked out the first time your resistant dropped your drug weak gets weaker so just for the record I've never gone to sleep again which uh means my resistance is high right I don't know it must be oh your defense is pretty good I I don't know about that no no I would um because it doesn't make sense to me or maybe in my case I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good yeah like there's no you're not in trouble yeah one of the things I regret the most about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having given enough time to um being in really bad positions like the better I got I think the less I started being in bad positions that's like the that is how you train yeah because you should just Spa When You Spa like it's difficult to to be in bad positions a lot and you train with better people but I mean let's say five six minute rolls how long you're going to be in a really bad position not long right so you don't really have time to develop that's why people they don't you know they don't train be in bad positions because you have to stop there over and over again to be used to it yeah or put yourself there I just didn't have that mindset I think I think you start I mean part of the fun of jiu jitsu's as you get better and better you have certain people you go with you have these puzzles that you've figured out that you're playing very specific details you're working out you're trying to improve your main like techniques and so on but yeah just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being or trying even going against like Laura ranks trying to escape basic submissions is low I I don't know if that's true for most people probably is right most people have very bad defense yeah because they don't allow themselves to be there because I mean who wants to get tapped because you will until you you know to work on your defense of course you're gonna get tap or you know you're not gonna Escape you're gonna struggle to escape so people they don't want to be there I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had and how I competed it it was it was clear that my competition was was constantly driven by a conservative thinking like don't take risks I think because of a weak defense honestly and I think uh a lot of the any of the fear like uh for example exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense I think if I were to psychoanalyze myself and I regretted it I regret it a lot um but speaking of which I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition so you're well I was a juvenile yes yes so so when you were a young person yeah six is that still haunt you I know first I was winning that fight by a large I mean I think by six points or four something like that but I was like I was going to remember it though huh by the details again he never competed again hi whoever you are please uh let's let's do a podcast uh no but what do you attribute to that too you're saying you're confident you're confident that the top of the world the number one puchesha would not submit you um so where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you first you come down training you know I train a lot bad position like my defense is good because I I practice over and over again as much as I practice all my offenses position so it's you know you have to train both equally it's not just being a good position you have to be in bed so I think that's a very strong part of my game you know to be a complete fighter you know at least a complete martial artist you have to be good in every single position every single one those that you're not you have a weakness so it's you know to be complete you should have no weakness so that was always my you know I was always very uh particular on that like it's one of my weakness where am I what I don't feel good at it if you put me in a position to a struggle how to escape how do I get out everything any submission locked Penny position you know back mount everything it's doesn't matter which position up I practice over and over again so that when I if I get there in a fighting situation I will know how to get out at least I'll have a direction you know I would know this is my way up do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position avoiding it because that's how it happens you know Jiu Jitsu you start in a neutral position now the transition then it then becomes the fight itself you see it's being there is the most important is when you're there then you have to know how to get out that's your weakness how I either stopping the person getting that something different they're two different things it's you you either you practice one or the other so but both are important I guess but the the stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training yeah what was uh the actual process like what was your biggest weakness throughout your like you just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out uh I mean outside control is always is the bottom of second bottom it's regardless how much you you practice it's not that very easy you'll never be easy but it's so annoying it makes no sense yeah someone pins you down this doesn't want to move much he's a big and strong guy regardless of who is not going to be to escape so some situations are just hard it must be the sorry to interrupt I'm interrupting hydrogracies but but you just made me realize if you're really good if you're if you're going against like the perfect Jiu Jitsu competitor probably side control might be one of the hardest positions is that the hardest position to escape is one of them if the person doesn't want to progress It's concerned about it yeah like the best pinners in the world I mean partially because I've Just Seen Judo people that know how to pin yeah they scrape this I control is a nightmare it's a nightmare doesn't matter how much you practice yeah it's a nightmare and it's also just frustrating uh I think I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control not progressing yeah and usually people in their mouth and back control are usually trying to progress towards a submission which opens up opportunities for escape so what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself inside a bottom side control yeah over and over again starting that escape back Escape get back if you mount you get back any situation outside that stop start again stop start again and it has to be I'll say five minutes because it's the repetition that will teach you you know if you train like three minutes on top you have time to you know one thing and then time up is the right position there over and over again you know when you try to say move over and over again then you see what can go wrong and is that understanding the details of the movement are actually doing the movement and feeling it it's it's both first you have to understand the movement and then practice but most important thing is defense Escape coming second because if you know he's attacking you the one thing is if he's not trying to submit you but the other one if it is let's say if a person is very good has a very good attack the first thing is defense not just Cape you can expose yourself to a even worse position because that is is very risky when you're trying to escape you'll always expose yourself to a worse position so avoiding that it's you know first is defense not getting caught and then when you're Skyping don't be no worse position so defense uh Engineers when you're wearing a ghee what does defense entail is it mostly grips is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs is is everything together because it's a whole body movement it's you know it's constantly moving off your arms legs body it's it they you know they they have to everything works together going back to the mind of that guy uh so confident no fear at this point is there a bit of ego in there too yes like I say no I'm not gonna say I'm fearful I'm fearless of course This concerns that fight I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in because I knew what that meant that fight I mean everything for me all my legacy was on the line because you thought I lost that fight though forever will be number two yeah forever and I mean bushesh is is a great great guy great competitor judicious is very good but I'm better than him I knew that it's like he's competing non-stop with them he's uh he's a great competitor you know taking nothing out of him he's super tough very very tough very good it's probably the best competitor introducer and he won 13 times the world championship I won 10. so as a competitor you know he has more titles than I do so but in terms of you know analyzing the game I consider technically better than him so knowing all that everything that I build all my legacy it's if I was writing on this match if I lose this fight I'm forever number two and none of that is going going through your mind I know I knew I mean it's not at that moment that I I already knew that I remember just before you know the curtains open I'm standing in before they call my name and I mean my legs were like I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs and I'm like you know I'm hitting the legs I'm like wake up you know get off get adrenaline off me you know so it's it was it was intense it was intense and this was in Rio that was Unreal so my hometown so this is I mean and you know Rio is is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans so this is like wow wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before yeah so this is like I mean this like the whole basically martial arts Community is watching this stuff like yeah I mean is there some uh was henzo there yeah yeah so people are just I mean there's attention it's also I mean I don't know if you felt that in part but you're also fighting for the Gracie name yeah in the in our hometown the greatest where the Gracie really is crazy competitor of all time arguably in the hometown yeah I mean okay all my family my best friends my friends everybody watching everybody there there was a lot of pressure a lot see and then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him no it's at that point like I don't predict how the fight will go that I never did because it is unpredictable it's I never tried to set any strategy for any fight I think oh okay that I did but that was the only time that I said any strategy into a fight there was a 15 minutes fight that and for I said first five minutes I'm gonna play defense he's bigger stronger younger I don't want to play his game and I know he comes in very fast every single fight he had you know he comes very aggressive so my strategy walk into the fight let's say five minutes I'm gonna play defense I'm not gonna try to attack I'm not gonna try to match his space I already expected you know maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight because you know if he comes in there's a risk of me maybe getting takedown you know something happened I'm like I'm gonna stick to the game plan five minutes I'm gonna start picking up the pace because then it's 10 minutes to go which 10 minutes a long fight so I don't need to stop fast but I'm gonna stop being more aggressive and then you know try to take him down up who God you know but by then I'm like that's as far as strategy goes there's no specific uh stay on the feet were you comfortable being both bottom and top and this yeah strategic I'm always comfortable being borrowed top I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom the personal topic takes the pace of the fight because he's on top over you so I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace I can Implement my own pace and being the bottom they can Slow Me Down so it's harder so if I can choose I will always be on top but I think by then I was like it's you know five minutes hit it I'm like he's pretty big and strong I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down I forgot how did it how did it feel so here you're stepping in by the way puzzle masks this is old school as old school as it gets so calm and relaxed here for people just listening we're watching the early minutes of the match yeah so just feeling it out he seems pretty calm too he must be nervous too I wonder how do you ever talk to him you guys are friends yeah yeah we're friends did he ever say how nervous he was no we never spoke about that fight no no he probably lays uh late at night thinking about it maybe I don't know that SOB yeah I mean so you see the first five minutes no he kept I knew what he was going to do in my study his game his stand-up is most basic is basic in takedowns uh leg attacks double leg so you go single double and he charges in that is pretty much his stand-up game so you try you get you get a grip yeah that we got penalized so do you like to uh use the do you like to post with your left you have a right foot forward usually you're righty right I'm ready but I know he wants my leg so I'm I'm playing my stance just because of this game oh you know all my grips are that the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks so he wants to get your left leg Yeah uh yeah right there yeah so how hard is that to stop that I mean he felt pretty strong so I'm you know I'm pushing the head down trying to play with his balance yeah if if you if you see it there was a pause go back there he charged in there's a pause me standing in front of him yeah I did that on purpose what do you mean just uh it's just in front of him because you know he tried yeah and I'm like you fail I'm here there's a okay so you could feel the frustrations I could feel his frustrated his frustration not be able to take me down okay so now and this is just psychological battles and you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat and he's circling out yeah see I'm going very slow I'm recovering and he's Computing like shit yeah okay it's because he just made a you know effort trying to take me down he needs to recover and I mean you you need to recover the other guys there waiting for you yeah enjoy do I go for another takedown because this one failed yeah do I need to recalculate the strategy yeah and he kept trying over and over again and keep failing I think that frustrated him a lot on that fight I fell I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere so we're five minutes in yeah he keeps so you never got that takedown in the in the early no let's see so at this point do you pull guard yeah okay so that's when I fell like he's he's mentally he's he's not he's worried now did you try to pull close guard here no I knew he was going to bring Danny in okay because that's the defense against pulling closed guard yeah but I like that what he I like people bringing the knee between my legs because see I'm gonna close my guard even with this lagging okay he is he's he's stopping the club well this is this is awkward but yeah I was holding his arm that's why he felt he had no hand to post got it but still it puts a leg in but you're able to close your guard around if you're okay with that I do that really well at three people from that position a lot what's the sweep I guess just pushed okay it's just a pledge to your left side yeah okay because he has no oh it's almost like uh you mean you're basically around his back a little bit like he knew that like I swipe a lot of people with that sweep so you you see he kept leaning to his left to my right yeah so I want to push them to my left so you see him leaning over to my right a lot what's the right answer for him to like roll or something no I mean he's stuck he does not really he's stuck there but the one thing he did he kept off me completely see that he's leaning yeah true like he's too afraid of my attack now because he that you know he should lean on me yeah you know you should bring the fight to me so when I fail him you know I I knew he was like he's too worried about my attacks now oh yeah that's right so he can't yeah he comes back to the center he has no like so he's not engaging at that time he's a hundred percent just defending so I felt that I'm like he doesn't want to engage and he's looking I knew at that point he wants my foot because our first fight I had this like the same position I wasn't holding his arm and he went to attack my foot which he did you know he got into hold or what okay yeah so I know he's looking at my foot which foot sorry the left my right yeah my right foot okay so I'm hoping he's hiding it I'm holding his arm and now you're going to the back it's an arm drag type of thing so the moment that I came off now I'm here I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up so he's you know I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up and he's holding it right to try to get you yeah basically to prevent you from attacking yeah oh that's interesting and he rolls yeah he tried to he tried to get me off balance so see now I'm switching I switched the grip on his arm so I can free my left arm can I ask you a question like uh was there a chance he sweeps you here I mean there's always a chance but very bad yeah but see my left arm is free uh so you can post yeah why was your left arm free oh cause you're using it you got it got it okay and now I tried the hook now you will see yeah but what I knew his Hispanic because he did a move that he completely opened himself up like I'm holding his left arm so by holding the arm his that prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being hauled across so their arm cannot block the hook and I mean the hook with your left leg Yeah okay so you see when he come up but I would say I mean that's my guess but bushesh is he's a big guy you know he's like 110 kilos 112 something like that which is 245 yeah all right yeah so what were you at the time uh less 220 yeah 220. a nice slim 100 kilo okay so it hits his defense are not amazing he's good but you know he's not known to have amazing defense so by being the big guy in the room when you train you used to get out of situation because of your size you shake people off you know it's it's because of your size you shake them off you get off some bad positions you can I mean I could feel on the first fight I'm side control you know something he explode out so you know you I've seen him doing that a few of his fights no you're not in the most technical way just I'm getting out and he did because of his size so and he did the same thing like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back did he completely open up the hooks he will see the next move his head gonna come up and he's gonna try to get off the floor so basically come up shake you off kind of energy there was no difference for the hooks I put both hooks in straight away his arms yeah I'm off balance yeah see I didn't bring him up he came up yeah and now I'm attacking his neck and he's worried about the hooks that's fatal mistake that's like defense always come first remember what I just said now the defense first Escape second so he's not worried more about the points than his neck so it was like a a progression of mistakes that's why I think he did he go frustrated when he couldn't take me down and then when I pulled God he was he was he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way you know he's very good about taking down he tried over and over again for five minutes and here he was frustrated about the hooks so he's like it's almost like the frustration things like no no these folks shouldn't be here like I pull God on the grips that I want he's not comfortable inside my God he's not in a position that he wants to be he's over leaning to his left you know to to to not he's not engaging or trying to pass he's trying to get the foot but his arm is trapped he's gonna get nowhere and then when I swapped him thundered his words are collapsing you know he couldn't take me down I pull God I'm swept him he tried to roll me over no you didn't get me anywhere the first movement that he tried to escape I'm on his back I mean now he's lost yeah that if you just go back to him standing up see both who goes in no defense like there was nothing on the way of those hooks coming up you're you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense it just felt too heavy man you got it you already got you're already you're already going for the choke huh of course there's no time to lose look at that yeah so you're not like worried I'm gonna get shaken off you're going for the trip okay no shaking me off I'm on your back now we're in this together and your your right hand is opening up the lapel my right hand is holding his arm sorry yeah like you're holding the sleeve but holding the sleeve and I'm already going for the neck because it's timing at which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up help with the power do you not need it no I did that but first I want to try to make a grip like then I need to establish control Before I Let Go his own got it so I kept holding that a bit longer and then when I fell okay I have a good control over the back then I Let Go do you okay so you have like a light grip on his lapel but you're thinking you need I need to adjust that you need to adjust it you're like holding it there and you're thinking okay at some point I need to adjust all I need all I want is to get under his chin then I noticed I mean now I can't go for it because if it's over there's no choke right the wrist needs to be on the that's just not right okay it's not right or it doesn't work it both it's not writing doesn't work I mean would you tap the choke on your chin no just pressure have you you heard but it's not going to choke you out I don't know I don't know I'm not let me argue this I love this arguing with Roger great thing about jokes this is great okay like clock joke it was always interesting to me because in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on them and face and so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have our gear on the face no it's just liberating no you don't have to worry about it like of course it's more effective to go under the chin but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure like it's all about how much you can take it you can take a lot but it feels like no it doesn't feel comfortable I mean sometimes on your mouth it cuts your mouth now you're bleeding you feel horrible no but it feels that's not the feeling the feeling it might not be a joke but the feeling like like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in but but it doesn't take you anywhere like you're not gonna go to sleep you might not go to sleep so it's just pressure yes so pressure he hurts is uncomfortable but it it is not going to break your face and it's not going to put you to sleep so if I don't get the neck I don't go for the kill I'm like I'm I'm holding the the his collar you know my my wrist is almost under it's you know I I'm trying to kind of dig in if if I can't dig in then I will adjust the call but first I need to dig in I dig in first and adjust can you do all that with one hand or no I did so you can tighten the choke with just one hand no I need the second one to open the level but you're like digging in with one I'm digging it under the chin yeah this is under now I need to go deeper but that the going deeper requires a second hand it does okay it does and but that requires you letting go of the other hand yeah I have to let go eventually yeah I see all right yeah well that's over yeah because I'm already under his like the first hand got under the chin do you need the a hand on the second level yeah of course otherwise he turns and he's out that's the control of the Turning versus the tightening of the choke yeah he does both it helps tighten the collar and stop the person rolling out will you feeling pretty good about this position yes I just felt it's getting tighter tighter tighter tighter because he wasn't super tight from the beginning he wasn't like the perfect joke so we're still I mean I knew it was like it's very close to the end but you know he was I still need the just that was still the risk of maybe escaping is it possible for his head to slip up yeah is it possible yes but I'm closing that Gap yeah and here what does that feel like relief relief like awesome amazing somebody on Reddit ask ask him about the Cross grip he used to sweep followed with the genius grips which when buchesha was inverted did you use a cross curve when you sweep did you I guess the Cross grip in the arm that must be oh that's the cross group okay uh what's the genius behind that or was that just the uh do you like that kind of that kind of grip yeah because I always like close guard and no one wants to be in anyone's close card right it's open God is the step to pass so everybody when you try to close the guide they bring them in the middle like if you if if you're not standing if you're lower on the ground and the open guard if you're close to me you need that knee between so it's a must that's when I start developing the attack you know I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that and then I just developed that sweep when did you start developing that like I don't remember when but I would say before black belt Okay so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in is there an answer to that no the good guys will always no you can't remove that leg out of the way that's not possible well maybe off balance them enough to wear this now no okay I mean you you can try but like it's hard you know he's kind of honestly you'll sweep them right so that means gonna so you're gonna have to say it's not full sweep yeah because that's is the is extremely common to have that I mean I if if I'm on your guard open guard you know if you have your legs you've found between both of your legs in the open guard mind you will be between your legs because it's a must my knee cannot be on the floor sometimes I was there what did he tell you before I think just motivate you I think that's hands will always do that fantastically well to motivate me like before I fight a match I think that you know the confidence you know he's you know his energy being around you it's I think that's the is the great thing to have hands on your corner it is the motivation that he gives you what did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life from Hanzo Gracie we got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit he's a character he's one of the uh historic coaches and Jiu Jitsu competitors but also Personalities in the martial arts world in in the world in general there's very few like them hands was a fantastic person it's it's you know what I've learned most from him is like it's you know you can't take any challenge it's you know it doesn't matter when where yeah well you know who it's you know you have to be ready and you know with that war spirit that he has he you know he always took any challenge Ready or Not Ready was it you that said it or he said it where uh not until you go in you know to do something difficult to discover the strength that you have so like like if you really think about it you might think that you don't you're not good enough you don't have the strength to take on something difficult I fully agreed I think we are measure not when we're on the strongest but when we are on the weakest that's when we truly measure ourselves or character who we are not we're in a position of power or when our position of weakness have you surprised yourself like how damn good you are like is this is this really how good I am in this situation where in retrospect you might think how the hell was able to accomplish this not how good I am because otherwise I wouldn't be there so you know being there in the first place it's it's already not a great thing but I say you know I've every single time I found myself there I was super proud that I've never cracked like I've never gave up ever any second any fight never never been broken in competition never even it's not about winning or losing is about you giving up I've never doubt myself I always fought to the very end always that I'm most proud of because there was moments you know it's you're in a terrible position you know mainly like there was moments that I was super tired but like exhaustive tired when and it was easy to give up like I had nothing more to give but I pushed I took energy out of my soul I would have to say because when my body had zero my you know my spirit my soul pull it out is that in part just not allowing yourself to have um to have to ever ever quit yeah I have uh one other thing I regret I remember like a blue belt match I remember I'm not gonna say who it was against but uh I remember just being extremely exhausted and um just constantly fighting a guy was really good Mount really good guard passing and I just remember um him passing my guard eventually it was just like a finals of one of the ibgf tournaments and then right away going to mount and just I don't know I the the level of frustration I mean I quit at that point I said I remember that still like I it's not about losing winning or losing but I just remember I was like like I was like teary-eyed frustrated and then I knew there was a lot of fights still left even in there somewhere and I I quit and I regret that to this day because uh I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option to to now quit in every other aspect of life like that this is an option yeah it is it sucks yeah it teaches you you know it makes us stronger it's actually made you stronger uh yeah it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that don't do that again um but still like you said just going to sleep in training I do think it made me weaker it did make me weaker in the rest of my life too that those you know I've quit a few times in my life on small things and you realize okay it's not that big of a deal it's fine like who cares um but that what you learn over time is that voice always comes there like uh uh obviously maybe it does for you too even at the highest level of like it's not that big of a deal like it's okay to quit here like it makes sense I really would understand um you know in some sense like you're uh you know many people would say you're past your Prime in this match with the procession like it makes sense you've been focusing on MMA makes sense yeah it makes sense to lose yeah I don't know that that's a weird voice and in some sense uh it's that voice and a voice that says like why are you doing this like this is silly that doesn't make any sense just just stop just stop just stop and uh shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit that's a really powerful thing like everybody I've met everybody that's successful um yeah down to the even Engineers CEOs Elon Musk just never quitting like when everybody around you it says quit never quitting it's weird I don't know what that is might be genetic it might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to um develop that it's basically developing a calluses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit you never quit huh what would you attribute that to it's like how much you want to get to the destination you chose like you know it's how badly when I get there it's if you quit you're never gonna get there and you always wanted to I always wanted is there some thing you remember from that match some things that happened before and after that stand out to you just since in Rio yeah there was an interview you know like prior to the fight you know there was a big fight we don't like media every day before we know me and him we're meeting for media and like five days before you know five six days before I'm quite chatty it's you know the closer we get to the fight the more Focus I get the less I stop joke around playing you know with people but I remember I think it was maybe three or four days before we were doing an interview together I think I think my cousin Kira was there she was doing one of the interviews with us and I don't remember exactly what we were talking about but I just remember we'll talk about the fight of course and then it was original with standing beside each other and I'm like and then I you know suddenly I chop and I grabbed him by the neck I say well I'm gonna tap you by the neck and then he's like you know very shy yeah and then I let go see no I'm gonna tap it by the arm and I could feel he was like he wasn't comfortable you know with being there was you know me saying that I'm gonna tap him out there was like I was so relaxed joking about it but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out in a fight that we're gonna have him for this time and yeah I felt he was like not comfortable at all do you think you got in his head a little bit to give you a little bit of confidence yeah you've said that you just is a reflection of your personality so both your jits and your personality there's a calmness what is that why are you so calm is there in like an ocean underneath that's boiling is this developed or is this your personality are you basically leveraging who you are already to develop a game around the Jiu Jitsu or the Jiu jits and make you calm I think both I I was always very calm since I was a kid you know since very young I was never very you know fiery person so that is a reflection you know you reflected on my reducer of my life all my fights the way I fight so it's a direct influence of my personality and I think he's also in the day you know you develop the more the more you practice the more you fight it's like you know you don't want to get nervous you don't want that adrenaline and so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind so the less I thought about it you know it's like how many times I fought you know let's say the week before the fight that's when you stop more because when you're concerned the most because now it's getting very close before it's just far away you know it's it's normal to think of the tournament you get a bit nervous but it goes away quick but the fight you know the week before now you're constantly thinking of that day and every time you think adrenaline pumps in your heart accelerate you know it doesn't you know it makes you it's like why am I feeling this what difference will it make so you kind of you sharing that thought out of your mind because you don't want to feel the adrenaline your heart accelerating it's not gonna add you anything so it's you know it's the practice also that I think I helped me to shut that off my mind has that helped you in regular life yeah of course it's you know it's suddenly when you go into any any situation that might be stressful you know like an important meeting no super whatever it is it's like how much would you worry about that before what it is not going to help you anywhere it's the opposite just gonna make you more nervous you're hard to accelerate your ability to think clearly is going to be damaged by that so it's like they're more calm the more relaxed you are the better you can think of do you ever get angry yeah like in traffic do you ever get like not calm just like you're screaming not not in a screaming no but just angry what does the angry look like is it still calm yeah like you know a few seconds of complaining but then it goes away have you ever like thrown a cell phone at a wall or something like that I think just that no I never get that angry because that's just silly it's like it's it's it's if I would have done that I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight letting yourself lose yeah uh and losing control that will reflect other times do you think it has uh make in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world like you're you're it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others probably yeah but I I heard that a few times I'm emotionally close it's yeah maybe that I think that influenced it yeah have you ever cried in a movie yeah for not for many years before I think maybe I'm getting older you remember the movie something nice I mean it's no I mean not the notebook I mean I would say the last few years I've been crying more than before for some reason I don't know why like silly movies like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes yeah well I really I already just having met you and interacted with you I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world you could you could see like here's this historically great athlete now like the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world it's cool to see probably I'm bringing my guard down now I don't have to keep it up all the time you can even do some podcasts um you said you watched like movies beforehand sometimes mentioned Braveheart what were you doing did you watch something beforehand like the day before I used to yeah there was like I think Brave hard and Gladiator I mean there's a few others that I've always watched the day before because the day before I used to do nothing yeah I just want to be at home in bed watching TV like saving you know the energy stretching by myself so it's like it's I just want to save energy I don't waste my energy going out going around so you know it's those are the movies that I always like to watch kind of trying to bring some you know hyper excitements like you know I'm getting ready to walk tomorrow so I'm like let me watch some movies they're like brother you know some that Warrior Spirit yeah into me yeah what is that about human nature Braveheart I love you know even more should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live it's like running you may live but like years from now when you look back at this moment uh would you trade all the days yeah just to come back and to this moment and tell the English you could take our lives but you can't take our freedom I mean oh man what is that about human nature um is there some aspect of like the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else there's some aspect of that that that's that's greatness you know yeah I never pursue Glory so it's it just came you know it is it came with it but that was never my goal I never care for Glory were you able to experience like like I'm at the height of this thing whatever whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things holy shit I'm flying I felt like no one can touch me I can destroy people yeah prolonged periods of time or just momentarily I I always knew you know from before I got to a black belt that like I I you know it's I can be great because my program you know I used to train with the best in the world I used to you know it for many years and I used to see my progression with then everybody else so I knew I was getting somewhere I know I could be the best and that was that was always my goal since very very young and I always believed that I could be and that over the years that kept telling me over and over again because I'm getting better and better faster than everybody else so it's I just need to carry on with what I'm doing but I think you've said that you wanted to and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time like at the very beginning like when you sucked yeah yeah not not the greatest of all time because and I never really thought about that but I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I saw it when I saw okay so what is that uh what is that like that's self-belief is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite it's difficult to say because that was a decision I think like why did I believe that could be I I can't tell you that because I don't know but you think you decided I decided to I decided to be and I believed I could I think there was like a day somewhere when you were young where you're like huh you're sitting at a couch eating Cheetos I don't think it was them a day like a moment because for many years is I wasn't really training much as a child you know I've done a bit of I used to train and then stopped on a bit of Judo never stay away from it much but until you know it like from 10 to 14 I barely trained juji so much I used to there was no gracious school near where I used to live and I was doing there was a judo school I used to go twice a week I'm going to introduce torment I lost in five seconds left cried the guy he pulled me in five seconds anyway so when I was 14 I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle Helen to spend some summer holidays I was there for like four weeks I think and I want to go there my cousin Hollis were living with him Holly is like bigger than me it was I think it's four years four years older so I was 14 I was already 18 17 18. purple belt comparator and I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean what it meant to be a greasy in terms of having a school teaching training you know living that you know judicial lifestyle what a crazy mean to be and I've just I've loved that it was out of shape my uncle was like you know incentivizing me to lose weight to train but you're not training why you know it's like give what a shape you need to diet so I used to run every day I was eating super well I started you know I started that when I start changing so when I go back to Rio was super motivated to follow up carry on and he you know he invited me to go back there to live with him but I couldn't it was too soon in to change schools and everything my mom said no but maybe next year if you want to go you can so I kept that in my mind next year hey I moved to the South to live with him I was 15. and it was him my uncle Helen and my uncle crawling they both used to live very close to each other they used to have their own schools close to each other so I was with both and I stayed there for almost a year I mean I was the youngest in the academy there was some you know blue purple Bells normal guy but they're very competing training ahead of me and I just joined the group of training I didn't compete while I was there because there was no composition that then and I wasn't really ready but it's not about company it's more about the training and I start training every day start improving and year after that when I came back to Rio I was already on a mission I was like I love this I'm just carry on training every day because my uncle Carlos Carlos Gracie Jr Grace about and the one I got there I was training a little bit that before but I just 14 15 but when I got there there was a you know there was one of that was one of the most competitive one of the biggest Jiu-Jitsu schools at the time there was so many high-level World champers competitors in every single belt and so and I've kind of joined in with that and I've carried I don't remember when but I remember you know looking and saying I'm gonna be the best in the world but I used to be I was at the bottom of the stairs you know no one really believed me I didn't shower you know to disguise but you know I told a few people I'm like I'm gonna be the best and that's I think up I was just losing but I've never ever doubt I've never divert from that Mission outside did anyone believe you when you said you could be great nobody did it matter it didn't matter I don't care I don't need even people that like love you everybody my mom my dad not me no one thought no one in my family thought I was gonna be here today nobody because I just started late you know I've I've never had any start that people or that kid's gonna be really good you know I'm always a chubby kid that didn't barely train I mean people used to look at me he just another greasy this you know one more what do you learn from that do you think most people lose that self-belief they quit when everyone around them doesn't believe yeah I think if if those that need approval yes but I see you shouldn't have approval and I'd never need approval from anyone I don't care if you we believe you're not if you not my problem it's tough it's tough I don't need approval but you're surrounded by people older wiser better than you and they're kind of directly or indirectly saying you stop being silly kid no one ever told me that because I I it's not that was not something that I used to say all the time I'd maybe say it just very very few times I just go you know maybe that's the secret of course I mean if you start shouting then you've just been silly then it's not what you really want then you're saying that for another reasons if you say it over and over again because you shouldn't I mean that's why well to push back one of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you yeah but more if you say over and over again then it's just then you're just bragging sure because one thing is to say it but the other one is to do it so it's you know you say that once or very few times but now you have to do it saying it's not helping you getting there was there sacrifices you had to make everything everything that was my priority in life everything was secondary like social life career paths yeah everything and is it from 14 15 16 as you get better and better and better and better it was just becoming sharper the focus on this thing yeah it's just over and over again over and over again it's you know it's just training training training and I mean how many times I lost I I have had no clue so on the mat you were getting beat up I'm getting smashed by everybody people my age I was chubby I was physically weak I mean I'm tall but physically I'm not physically strong I'm normally strong for my size but physically if you want to measure strength I'm weak because you know we can measure strength living with living with I'm weak I don't lift I lift weight same as people much lighter than me everybody my my weight leaves have heavy weight and then people that train with you often talk about how they're strong super strong yeah because I generate a lot of strength I can create I I put myself in the right angles so then I can be strong I'm not strong and the only person who I listen to saying that is uh computer one guy that I fought I fought him a few times and he's the only one that I heard saying about me this like no Roger's not strong he's not he's Technical and he's he can create strength but he's not strong he meant that as a compliment yeah I think so no I think he was honest because he I think he's the only one who could see that yes so I think that's a compliment so he's technically so you had an incredible matches with him yeah is there a Insight you have about how you went from a person who was not very good but had a a dream a confident dream a vision to somebody that was actually good was there something to the practice sessions were you getting reps on the specific techniques I'd never done anything special because I mean you know I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else so I've never did anything on the side different than anybody else so you know I was in the school training this is like the same way as everybody else wow in terms of schedule yes but what was can you reverse engineer what was going through your mind because there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach these same exact training sessions I'm gonna try to be okay so in some part is competitive yeah like at the core of it is I want to be better than these particular people you're going to keep beating me I'm gonna keep coming back at you and to do that I have to solve problems I have to figure out how to do stuff you catch me once I'm Gonna Keep On Coming trying to unlock get get caught on that at which point did you develop a game that was basically the white the famous white bug game of the very Basics the very fundamentals of Jiu Jitsu like saying I'm going to beat you there was never there was never a conscious decision to to try to you know to have a basic judicial first I think there's a big misconception there okay it's not you're right it's not basic it's not old school I think people they just don't see that it's extremely complex in a way that is is people they cannot copy I teach people you know I can teach you the cross color choke but the one thing that people didn't realize is not the move is you need to practice the move until you learn is the practice over and over again like it took me years when I say ears I'm like years after I was a black belt I was able to choke people out with a cross-color choke in the mouth effectively years after I got my black belt so he said that's something that you learned first day first week so I can't teach you it makes no difference you you know the theory but until you've applied it and you help you of course the more details you learn you know the the more tools you have to practice but it's still very complex because it's not about the move itself it's about how can you control the movement of the other person he's resisting you're blocking you cannot predict what he would do and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to to block you every single move you do a step of the way because it's a is is a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the joke it's a progression of moving there's not one way to get that there's many ways because how many ways can you blocked you can put your arm in every single angle we have both arms you can Bridge so it's dealing with all that that is the yeah that is the complex complexity of the position but that goes for everything like every single move my strong moves I would say it took me years developing them years so it's and you're going to tell me that's basic so go try and do it what the other person is defending that's the thing because most of the things that I do have been doing them for years and I they know that I'm gonna do and I can still get it most the times that's the hardest is when they know what's coming and you can still do it and he said that the way you're able to do that you just have to do it right yeah what do you learn by doing all the steps along the way and just for people who don't know cross-color choke from the mount so Jiu Jitsu starts in a neutral place there's people on their feet and then you either then you get to the ground somehow and then there's the person on top and on bottom and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people and then you can get past the guard as you get past the guard and you uh into side control and so on you get more and more and more dominant positions and so Mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions it's when you're past their legs sitting on top of their stomach putting pressure on them and cross collar choke is using their jacket to uh how would you explain that to children I put my both hands on your collars and when I squeeze you you press your neck so it blocks the venue you go to sleep so it's a you you choke people with your hands in the wrist you put them you know you grab the collar so you get the wrists around people's neck can you squeeze yeah the discovery of that is fascinating I mean because it's it's interesting it's like um you know you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being what animals do with their like mouth right they put like their jaws around the and the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning and then it becomes an art form like of why this why not this right or why not this or something like to figure out we practice that would come easy over time you figure out what works and what not on you and then and then more further and further details and subtleties start to emerge anyway on that process of beating of being able to beat some of the best people in the world and the thing they know is coming what is what's the difference between the white belt doing that and hydrogracy doing that the thing that's so hard to explain what do you think you're picking up is it some tiny tiny details of muscle movements it is it's many tiny details because is is the whole movement itself is the perception from beginning to end like every step of the movement it's important and precise so it's you know you miss once one detail on the way you collapse so I'm going to start with the black belt the black belt has no control over their whole movement he's thinking beginning and then so he goes straight to you know straight to your neck regardless he cannot read the other person if his you know if it's time to let go of the time to go for a neck should I be pushing here before I get my hand in you know is is this the right time to go deep or should I deal with this first before the second hand that's at the beginning says that that the white belt yeah at the very beginning of the journey yeah the white Bell to just think finish yeah and then as you get progressed you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're almost feeling your way down I mean would you be able to teach do you even know what you're doing by the details okay but it's hard to convert into words probably uh no it's possible then you don't know what you're doing okay uh so what is what what is the most important details they could say maybe positioning of the hand the gripping is it the positioning of your body the posture is there some interesting like insights It's a combination because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold them out so the choke is that that's first because I cannot use I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping yeah so if I had to my body has to handle that the way I position myself I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance okay why is the model such a dominant position it doesn't make any sense right like you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person it makes all sense if you think what's forget forget fighting forget Jiu Jitsu like you've never trained what's the one position the most dominant position you can get over another human being one the most for you which one it is like the most dominant position that you can get over another human being so if we were just because the way I think about it is putting myself in like a six seven eight year old self without knowing any martial arts and I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me uh yeah it probably was Mount it what but well yes okay so we both didn't know but if you knew something it'd probably be back control if in the back control you're under the other person the thing being under is the most dominant position it can be over another person you mean like a back control if I'm on your back oh like that you can move you can roll I cannot stop you rolling yeah maybe you can even stand up how dominant is that yeah but if we're the same size both untrained it doesn't matter have you seen kids do they do that okay mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight-year-olds fighting okay I don't know I don't know why it feels that way it could be some animalistic thing maybe it is actual dominance I don't know but it feels like if you're on trained you can just buck your way out of it it feels unstable it feels unstable to hold mouth unless you know what you're doing right no well if you if you're multiple both of your hands on the floor yeah just your hands to think it's easier to take somebody off yeah maybe not to think it's easy to remove the hand and bring them out the hands on the floor I'm straight I'm leaning in yeah you're right it's hot I mean you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself down yeah but you're right when you take the arms off and balancing then it gets tricky because when you're trying to uh I think what happens I'm thinking back to eight-year-old because my my brother's five years older than me and he would do the usual like stop hitting yourself thing and you I think he'll be in mouth like hitting me with my own hands uh from at a place of Love of course I love them deeply and it was very formative and uh positive experience for me okay um I think yeah the weakness is when he takes well when the person who has your mouth takes their arms off to to do something but even if you keep your hands opened yeah when I'm falling yeah okay I'm not falling so I'm speaking about untrained people I feel like they get greedy they try to do stuff the other day I watched my nine-year-old daughter yeah well I'm in a friend's house there's a whole bunch of kids that they're playing and when I looked she's mounting a boy her age her size he cannot Escape wow she probably has seen no she trans she's been training for almost a year and a half okay which is not much I mean she's a nine-year-old daughter a girl over a boy has she seen footage of you maybe she picked up no but she appreciate she'd been training for a year and a half so she has an idea what Mount is but I mean it talks about skills I don't never taught her them out yeah she has you know she had lessons at the Academy like any other kid did she make him cry or no but he couldn't escape which which are the position would she be able to hold that boy you know in the back he would roll it out that's true like he couldn't come out from underneath her shoes in decades like there is no other most dominant position that you can pin the other person couldn't you argue from that perspective side control no no because I control you have to to hold the other person and it's you're not free you you cannot release them but inside control your hips are not on top of theirs so they can't Buck you off right can you if you're holding them a little bit and then you can hit them with one hand but his head is here you're gonna hurt him here by the time you're doing that but then he has his arms free and if you turn towards your legs then he's away from your arms you're not even has the perfect angle I mean it is a good position you can hit you can dominate but it's not the best position to be over the other person he can knee you in the head at the same time you punch him then there's a knee come into your head I love playing Devil's Advocate to hide Your Grace about two eight-year-olds fighting and you and you your head is closer to his hand yeah maybe he can give throw you a punch all right so would you choose to be inside control of a mouth getting in the head well for a person who in competition prefers neon belly over her mouth but that's my weakness that's my failure as a human being holding him out is is can be tricky it's very hard of course it's hard but what is easy control in neon Bell is easier but neon Bell is easy easier I'm not saying black belt level I'm saying well maybe even black belt these are for what to hold somebody to make them squirm and hurt to create openings with a big guy yeah you can you can't yeah he's gonna push it back and come up in the mouth he can't sit up not when he mounted him the thing is also about Mao is people on the bottom of mouth Panic more it's the most exposure you you have because the first arms are free you cannot touch him his head is too high there's nothing he can do his legs won't get you anywhere he might touch your lower back it's like nothing you do you you most expose being in the mouth already you hope inside control a thousand times the amount of me and having to look up for your fist come down yeah side control I heard you you cannot hurt me okay hold me but I'm hugging you if I hug you tight what can you do against me hold it it seems maybe it's just from uh and again I'm arguing just for the fun of it but um it seems like a more difficult skill to learn to apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from Mount you don't have some slight pressure and weight from mouth or not apply pressure but be heavy right you don't necessarily need to be heavy you don't no why do you as people say you feel extremely heavy if I'm putting if I'm being heavy I cannot attack yes I I have to choose I can be heavy just to penalize you know just to pin them take the energy out you know to make them suffer but the moment that I decide to attack I can only behave him if I'm sitting up straight that's when my all my weight can drops down if I'm high then I'm sitting on your chest and on your own solar plexus that's the worst position to be said added on the person because that's where he breathed so you're in a high mouth sitting up straight that's when you can I can be very heavy I can make people you know feel my weight and you know be very uncomfortable but I'm not in a position to attack the moment that I want to attack my body has to lean forward I have to approach the you know the neck of the arms the moment that I do that my weight comes off my hips it goes to my knees the way it is off you but at that point if you have now I'm attacking I'm no longer heavy on you but you want to be at that point to remove any of the defenses they have or some of the defenses by getting there now now I'm like either getting trying to get your call or bringing your elbow across to talk to your unlock so what are some interesting details along the way that are tough to get to figure out what were the big leaps for you from white belt to to the best in the world it's you're trying to attack the neck you know putting one hand in the collar you're priving yourself that hand to place it on the floor yeah so now you're vulnerable to get bridge to get rolled over because if your hands are free trying to roll you over you stopped the moment they put your hand in the person's collar now you have to be very careful with your body positioning very careful the distribution of the weight yeah and how you you know how high you sit you know how tall you you your upper body goes and then the biggest challenge comes as you try the second hand that's the you know for the for the choke that's the biggest challenge the second hand because you already have you you know you already don't have one hand now you you are trying the second hand and if one of my hand is in you you know as a uh defending yourself have two hands one hand is already on one side this this side is getting attacked you have two hands blocking that I have one hand there's no help for that hand I cannot remove anything that's the biggest challenge getting one hand getting past two and not getting rolled over but I also have to have two hands on bottom I have two hands and can also turn and do all kinds of stuff yeah and my whole mind and everything is focused on that second hand it's a big challenge it's hard very hard is there an art to getting the first hand into a place where you it's less of an art because it's easier I'll say most times I get my first hand in is when you you try some move you're trying to escape you're pushing I get with the first handing as an opportunity and it's gonna sit there for a while and now and I go as deep as I can so the first hand because the second hand is the hardest I have to compensate the first thing to be as deep as I can right if I cannot get the first hand in deep I won't try the second I need that first hand deep then I go for this and it's deep in it everything is like super like tight super tight the first hand has to be super tight otherwise the chance of failing is very big okay does the opponent usually feel like they're screwed at that point also no as you put in the first hand and the moment that I position myself just prior to attempt the second hand I think the way I my body is positioned the way I'm I'm collapsing with my weight and the field is like it's I'm in a this is terrible yeah how long did it take you to figure out how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in very quickly because door get reached out okay so that there's a good feedback loop yeah because one mistake you out like one off positioning you out but you still have to do that against the best people in the world yeah where is the way out for most people like if you were in Mount against pusheshire or some of the best defenses in the world uh the way out is to I mean obviously is to defend themselves and you know prevent the first hand to get deep and I'll say the best thing that they could do is try to change my positioning on the mount in a way that you know pushed me to a very low amount you know try to just to to to to change the way I'm dominating you not to be you know to get me off the high mount pretty much are you always is it as slow is it a fast thing to go from low to low a high mode slow very slow because I need to beat your arms because you're holding me down and the arms need to come out it's a slow it's a slow process okay and you just is there like a yeah you saw use my legs against your arms so it's my legs pushing your arms but how do you get them how do you get your legs into the elbows as long as this you know it has to come under the tip of your elbow because now the legs will start forcing your arms up so your legs are like spread out there no they're in your elbow cannot get inside my leg right because that because that means I'm in a very low amount and then I cannot attack because I cannot ignore that because the mode that I attack that will you will stop pushing my leg to push me out what's the secret to getting the second hand in there's two ways either you go four fingers inside which is the hardest because with the moment that your two hands are defending you'll be blocking the the you know the the way and I cannot clear and attack two hands against one so I go summon I go behind the ear yep so my my grip goes because for you to defend you need to get there yeah and when you get there you elevate your air will expose the arm lock put the thumb in and then there's the uh dreaded like the other person just waits for you to Loop the arm over how about that this will it's a once you get the thumb and it's over okay no but when I'm there it's if I get that it could be a bridging you know they try and I mean I'm not using their hand to post now your head is your head is very close to the floor when you've tried to Bridge and you know my forehead would touch the floor that would be used as a hand but it's not on the floor not necessarily okay because if it's on the floor my body's collapse over you yeah so there's no place for my hand for me to work on your neck so I need some space between us so I don't completely make it bob up and down yeah I try to keep a gap between us okay so that Pursuit that takes many many many many many years I don't know if you've seen Giro Dreams of Sushi the doing the simple thing that's not so simple but it kind of looks simple of the over and over and over and over and over and presumably getting much better and simple it becomes very simple but you're picking up details probably along the way there's wisdom along the way what is that is that um there's like lessons that you just kind of accumulate over time like one training sessions you'll see maybe um like the positioning of the thumb like this detailed positioning of the thumb or something like this and then you like okay if you like load that in that that would be very basic because there is not that many different ways maybe one two I just do one any other is not as strong because it's it's about getting a strong grip on Your Collar I mean the sun is it's the thumb goes inside you know is it the thumb in or or four fingers in base getting a strong grip on the call as long as they know this is just holding yeah and feeling strong so that's just two options so uh it's the dynamic stuff along the way that yeah and then some of that timing too it's timing are you also like making people like faking them out making them think about something else no not at that point that's not because I cannot fake anything else at that point because I'll have to change my positioning to you know maybe to fake an arm look then I have to move out from that so then I will lose that the control I have so what's the process towards Mastery if you were to convert that to something that generalizes Beyond jiu jitsu how can you get that good at a simple thing practice and what that simple the same exact thing over and over it's just a matter of how long it would take so all that's true that's true I mean like I said that's true look how long it took me people give up along the way there is um intricacies to that Journey towards Perfection there's a lot of people that do Jiu Jitsu for decades and don't get better no because they don't train the way they should they don't train to get better they train to get tough there's a big difference most people they train to get tough so they are tough you know like we were talking before they don't practice the weakness you want to be good at you want to be really good at jiu jitsu you have to practice your weakness not your strength you have to practice everything but you have to be equally strong in every position they all exactly the same you know you your guard top bottom side control top bottom Turtle half guard mount back I mean you pick take down it's and then you get into details of escaping triangle it's applying the you know triangle escaping arm lock difference scenarios of you know it's the one thing is defending the amlock when you you know you have your time your arms very close to your body the other thing is to defend the arms when your arm is you know almost getting and then when he got your arms so this so many things to practice that you need to repeat them over and over again until you confidence enough that when you get there you have a chance and you can do the same kind of thing for even the final stages of a cross joke from everything I mean of course like you don't practice skipping the unlock with a full arm straight because you know it's it's gone I mean you practice you know you practice keeping the arm lock when he takes your arm you have you know you have a chance of trying to escape but you don't practice you know okay take my arm when I say go Go I mean you got you know you pop the arm that is like you get injured doing that escaping the cross color choke it's I mean Escape not letting the person get there you can escape you can practice keeping triangles because you know it's like it's you you have a way better chance of skipping Triumph but then okay mount on me put both hands in my neck I mean it's over you know don't be there what's the best submission in Jiu-Jitsu a choke I would say for which position oh if if a billion dollars to start in a position like uh in a submission and you only get the billion if if you get the submission which one would you start choking them up Costco checking them not from the back no you have a better chancecaping from the back really yeah even with the hooks even with everything do you think some people disagree with you I don't care I have a better Escape I have a better chance skating from the back than if you mount on me put my hands on my neck so I've been that many you are facing yourself and I will give you a billion dollars to escape you you would uh you would pick from the back a thousand times over like really no compare you have like uh with hooks with like a triangle like that matter you can do whatever you want but like a body triangle okay okay a thousand times over so what no questions it's you the mount is a super controlling position it's not just because cross color choking the amount the moment they put both hands on my neck you know you have to your arms need to be very close to your body to attack so that means there's very little space between us so that means there's very little escape space for you to work on your escape and the moment that you cannot Bridge let's suppose I have you know the person has a good Mouse so he cannot Bridge him off what else you don't have space to try to work on your defense being in the back I have all the space around me to work on my difference in my arms I have the mobility to bring them anywhere so I because of that it gives you me a much better chance and yeah you cannot I can move my body you feel my you feel my back you you cannot pin me you know my I cannot take you off my back first I need to defend the choke but you have no control over my body so that means there's still a lot of movement that I can try to use to escape in the mount there's no movement I'm pinned down I cannot move and I have no space between us to escape well the argument against that this is great is that on the bottom of Mount I the uh I do have my hands between so you're saying they're pinned there's nothing between where I mean you could get them in theory you could somehow you could but there's no you can but then there's no space they'll be squeezed between our bodies if it's an incredible if it's an incredible amount no it does not Mount like how standing if I put both hands on your neck if I'm gonna go for the cross collar choke after I get my hands in the next step is to pull you close to me so it's this my arms needs to be closer again put there's a hands that could do something they can come in but this they are very limited space between us yes yes no I mean to push your body away only through standing not if your back is against the floor okay the argument against the mount is uh or the argument for back controls being the most dominant position is even though I have hands I can't really use them effectively as effect 9 the mount there's no space there's no space you can try I mean you can squeeze your hand in I mean there's there's still things that you could do but they're so limited so if you pulled the 100 best competitors of all time what do you think they would answer to that do you think most would agree with you I don't care please it will show me their skills the ability to see okay so the perfect mount versus the perfect back control there's no question okay there's no question for me I mean argue with me like show me because I'm not being stubborn because I'm being I've been scientific so explain it to me why the back it you would be harder it would be better to your position to finish them out if if you can explain it to me why I might change my mind I was trying to but uh I don't I don't have the cred I'm like a middle school a science student trying to talk to Einstein here okay besides you who do you think is the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time can you make the case for some of them Marcelo Russia liangelo I'll have to go with bushesha because look at the how many titles he has I mean he has by far more than Marcelo Marcelo stopped quietly londolo has eight but sure she's better than him what do you think makes procession so good he's a heavyweight that moves like a lightweight his removes very fast but he's very agile for his size so the uh the agility combined with aggression yeah so it's very hard to control him because he moves fast and he's 112 kilos more than 15 sometimes or 110 I'm not sure but he's about around that so 240 in in pounds so when you when you agile 200 to 240 pounds that makes it very hard to control you what about making the case for some others what about the little guys or about Marcelo if you were to make the case for him being the strongest what makes Marcelo good masal gas is extremely technical I mean I think he's he's one of my favorite judges of Fighters because in in a technical way I think he's probably one of the best because raw technique in a bunch of different positions for submissions he's he's not very powerful you know physically he's not very strong but he can make himself very strong and his technique is very very high level have you ever uh trained with him not fight him twice yeah he's more smaller than me it's what happened in those matches the first fight I topped him I think five minutes in which submission choke from the back color choke from the back and the second time I beat him by points but a very large I think 12 to actually uh just to continue uh I wonder if uh if John Donahoe would agree with you about Mountain back I can't wait to this is a bear versus lion conversation but I'm looking there's there's statistics about I'm not letting this go uh there's statistics about oh look at that Roger what do you know looking at Hydra Gracie's statistics for um most successful submissions choke from the back yeah is the most because people panic when I'm out ah they turn the back I choked them out that's one explanation uh but for people it is interesting that uh of course this doesn't capture but this captures a lot of your major matches and we should say that you've submitted most of your opponents so you rarely win on points usually wins submissions choke from back is most of them then cross joke from about arm bars a lot too so 18 from choke from back 12 cost joke 10 armbar uh five RNC rear naked this is for nogi okay so Ezekiel is very powerful I took I'll use it's a strong weapon yeah also from Mount for also from Up oh that's when you can't get the one hand in no because the Ezekiel most times I use against people is is that is the attack that as soon as I get to the Mount when they're trying to escape the open up and I get them it has to be at that initial timing so it's not a thing you use to like bother them in order to create either I get it right right away or I don't bother trying much because you need to keep one hand behind the head and that um you're naturally on that position as soon as you're Mount most of the times and the moment that you mount someone no one accepted they go mount it they're gonna expose to get out so hold in the head it gives you a better way way to dominate them initially you know to deal with that explosiveness on the big on the initial in the beginning and then but then we have to let go to try it you're very limited hold in the head in terms of goats uh shanji I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves he had an extremely dominant performance in competition what about solo and Sanji hibera what are your thoughts about what makes them so good yeah a bunch of tough matches with ashanji yeah and Solomon eight times yeah for eight times shown there I fought solo once what uh I think I'm bringing up a sore Point um oh did Sanji tap when you uh or did the time right out and that uh was the last time you guys face each other yeah 2008. that was incredible to watch uh also um I think you pull guard with one minute left working towards or attacking I mean it's probably very tough to get anything and uh for people who don't know time ran out you had uh something that looked like an arm block and uh shanji look like he may be tapping but it looked like he might be just celebrating which is mostly I'm not sure I'm not sure it was I'm not sure because I think he's I'm just just straight he's on time finish yeah so I'm not sure if it was tapping to you know to let go time time's up or because of the outside most likely the time was up yeah and also there's a thing where you start you realize there's only three two seconds left he used to kind of start celebrating you realize that hydra's not gonna be able to finish this armbar in the time left so you start celebrating no I think he topped to say the time the time was up anyway what do you think like the longevity especially is impressive with with uh with shanji how long I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves because he pushed his career very far and the last few years he was on his best so he's if you were to stop before you know you would people would remember him on his highest but he kind of pushed more than his Peak let's say how hard is it for you to walk away we'll talk about the journey into MMA as well but you basically especially with the second match against Patricia basically walked away on top um beating arguably the greatest competitor of all time um and just walking away it wasn't that hard to be honest because there was something that I was considering for a while because the last few years of my career let's say he was fighting MMA at the same time I was fighting Jiu Jitsu and it's very challenging to do both like I don't there's not another person who ever did that because the training is a confliction with the Y train everybody who start doing MMA start focusing MMA the Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they stopped training with Diggy everybody no exception was your Jiu Jitsu also getting worse no because I made sure I kept training with the ghee and I kept fighting at least the world championship once a year that was my goal I'm like I'm gonna go for MMA but I I love Jujitsu and I still want to fight the highest level so I kept fighting once a year for a few years it was a challenge especially because the two or three times when I competed other words it was right after I MMA fight ahead and then you know no you don't you you don't have the grips so if my grips it made a big difference oh my grace so I was weaker great price so I failed that so I knew it was like it's it's unnecessary risk because I'm not if I cannot be 100 so what am I doing this but I'm stubborn I love Jujitsu that's like I love if I introduced to I never loved MMA I've liked it but I think it for Grace I wouldn't have done it so the the thing you felt the most is uh the grips yeah yeah because you want a ghee World Championship without gripping no like just pretending it's no game match they get to grip you but you don't no so grips are essential of course I mean how can you choke someone like it's if your grips are weak you you your forearms will fatigue and then you will have no power and then you cannot do anything yeah you could still arm lock and you can so I meant more not for the submission but for the control of the game of it but you need to opportunity to grip to get there to get there and if it was a week but you also have grips and nogi can she use those grips no it's a thought experiment so like I'm trying to understand how essential I gotta get a new guy go fight with the git they Panic they Panic of course everyone panics a bear panics when they're in the water with a shark but that doesn't mean the bear can still win when it stops panicking and relaxes it's not possible that's another discussion can a bear beat a shark in the water um actually I need to put maybe a polar bear because they're pretty good at swimming okay I say not possible for the no gear guy to win but the Bears is it for the discussion what was to you the biggest difference between mixed martial arts and uh jiu jitsu what are some interesting differences some interesting insights even just about the grappling within both Sports so the biggest difference for me between MMA and Jiu-Jitsu is first is the speed like Jiu Jitsu you know like a 10 minutes match I can take my time there's no dangers there that forces me to move fast MMA you have to be 100 Sharp in fast from first second of the fight because punches are coming can get knocked out anytime one mistake you're out you just don't have that like it's I don't have to worry about quick submissions because it's all about the way my body is positioned you know my grips is easy to avoid it's easier to see it coming like it's like a quick submission a surprise it only works if you make a mistake if you're not correct positioning otherwise it's impossible it's extremely difficult MMA is not I mean one Split Second mistake and when the person comes you have to respond you have to to match your space I mean you can slow down but it's like you you're forced to respond so that much faster is that it's a lot more physical a lot more and you need to be physical much better conditioning faster it's explosiveness it's much harder is it possible in the MMA to calm things down unless if they change the rules yeah five minute rules now ah I see so like uh I just meant actually technically speaking is there ways to to take an opponent that's being exceptionally aggressive you can clinch clinch but then he takes her down he keeps moving something is hard to control that pace you can you don't if you play defense you you save more energy than if you try to beat aggressor and respond and even get into the coins is very difficult yeah you have no way to hold yourself there so that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA is the speed because I'm a very slow start fighter if you look at my matches I start very slow because if I go hard you know I fatigue faster so for me that was the hardest part of is to start fast what about on the ground is there something different more challenging in the ground being in the bottom yes the sponges yeah how fundamentally different is jiu-jitsu's punches on the ground that changes everything everything which which parts the the distance that you allow your opponent to be on you the techniques that you choose to apply you know you you have to but your body has to be aware of the punches and you know you are a lot more limited on your attacks like so you're you're known for your closed guards how does your closed guard have to adjust how does the positioning of your hands have to adjust when you're on the bottom of close guard so in the garden especially the close guard you you have to either keep the person very close to you or you have to kick him away that's in the God is either I'm hugging you or get away from any Jiu Jitsu you're allowed to have a middle yeah there's a lot of you can allow the person to be what about getting a a arm lock or a triangle submissions from the from the guard is is that fundamentally different because you don't have the middle game is much harder there's barely no open guard in MMA very little because the open guard there's a distance between you and him yeah there's a distance you how you you cannot control it's much harder to control that punch coming and I have to position myself a way to block that and it limited my attacks my options of attacks is there a reason correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you do open guard much in Jiu Jitsu and nogi is there a reason for that it's harder with the explosive uh explosion of person because it's you know when they're moving fast then you have to try to slow them down so you like guards that allow you to control the person and closed guard is the ultimate control oh no it's not ultimate control but close guy puts in a position that I'm attacking and you're defending you cannot attack me for my close guard we can argue that this might be one or two attacks but it's like very very very limited and depends who you're fighting against but I I hate the Coast Guard of being on top well against a good close guard is no one likes this is terrible it's horrible yeah it's one-sided yeah so you're in the garden is one-sided the person the brother has the advantage I can be completely relaxed in my closed guard and I cannot be completely relaxed you know the most annoying thing is is somebody who is both good and extremely confident with a close card because they have that smug energy about them they know how much unpleasant how much work it takes to pass this anyway um especially people with longer legs is there something you um wish you did differently in how you started trading at MMA in that trajectory and figuring out how to train how to get good like what have you learned about getting good at MMA from having done it if you were to start now for example I think I would have to dedicate it more I didn't dedicate enough uh both like literally time number of training sessions training yeah but also mental training wise physics yeah I think a lot more the physical part of it the strikes everything the strike from the beginning it's because I mean I love Jujutsu like it's I truly love the old aspects of it fighting training you know the practice the competition I don't have that for MMA so it's hard to to give your heart to it something that you don't have the passion to it like Jiu Jitsu you know I gave my heart to it like I did everything that I had to MMA I never I didn't do that so that's why it was I won't say it was wrong for me to to have to to do it because I don't regret doing I always you know looking back as a kid when I decided to you know to be to take Jiu Jitsu for life I I already knew that some point I would have to do MMA there's almost like that's the path of a Gracie you know you when you're ready you go to MMA so there was a like a Duty versus a love yeah that was that was not a choice that was like I have to that's just the the life I took he will lead that way are you proud of that stuff you know go against the natural love and towards more Duty I think I don't regret it because if I hadn't done it I would feel there was something missing yeah so I don't regret doing I would regret not doing the the tricky thing is the choice to go to MMA could have compromised your ability to win against Patricia and it didn't and it's um it's a fascinating case study it still doesn't make sense to me they after all those years you're able to come back and go against the best person in the world and beat him yeah and I had to because the first fight we had I had something stuck in my throat for a long time you think so you think about that oh yeah I'm like as soon as that first fight finished a headset I that got stuck in my throat that I already at that point I knew I'm gonna have to fight him again I knew I always knew because there's no choice I have to oh man all right well in terms of nogi who do you think is the best no-gi competitor of all time there's no question you know this Gordon is I mean it's I don't think it's right to say the best comparative of all time because he's still very young I think that's something that he came back in the end of when the person you don't want him to get lazy you know what I'm saying I mean but you cannot praise someone in the middle of his career you know so it's you cannot call him the best ever he's 26 or 27. so it's I mean he's he's great he's very good he's ahead of all of other competitors I think and I mean he's having an amazing career you know he's doing amazingly well so I mean when he's when he finished when he finally retired then you can I go like you know what there's wisdom in that it matters how you finish right of course it's very interesting I think that nogi is relatively new that Noki seen that was not there wasn't a scene before I think you started now on his generation you know his time because before like when I was competing you know he was just ADCC there's nothing else every two years and my first was only in the Emirates you know you should have you had to go there to compete so there was not even a scene there was like this one tournament that gives a lot of money to you know to competitors to Fighters and it brings fighters from other modalities you know to Marca Venice day or you know some wrestlers Greco-Roman you know they can compete against each other and they you know they create that settle rules try not to favor anyone so that was it so you cannot be called the greatest dogia of all time if you only have one torment every two years only in memories they have to be invited to but I think now you know the degree grew a lot now we have so many different tournaments now we have a scene you have people that only train nogi they're fully dedicated to nogi then you have supervised different tournaments so now it's it is now you know now it's professionally you can do just no dinner which before was unheard of it because you you have one or two Thomas if you cannot be called a no-gi Fighter fighting one so two one seven two years twice every two years and now there's an entire yeah systems that are optimized for Noki that could be fundamentally different like what do you think about the body lock like this passing with the body lock I I don't know if you get an understanding of it yeah that I think it's okay it's uh it's a popular way to uh what is it to maybe to apply to stay tight to stay tuned very close to your parents your your opponent so he can't push create distance he can push away but somehow it uh shuts down the hips as well yep makes it more difficult to yeah kind of trap your legs you'd see your back gets stuck on against the floor are you like scientifically curious about these new developments do you think do you do you have answers in your head to them most so body lock is one interesting one obviously foot locks is another and that'll mean just the full locks but the whole like control aspect of foot locks that's interesting and there's other there's other interesting stuff John is really into uh um the wrestling aspect but not wrestling wrestling but wrestling everywhere Jiu Jitsu at all levels of the plane um that's that's very interesting because you know obviously you just was not really been you know unlike like Freestyle Wrestling and so on has not been this like a systematic scientific rigorous exploration of wrestling it's like you're on your feet and you're on the ground not academic he tried to you know numbers mathematic everything well you kind of are too yeah oh I mean that I am because you have to understand what you're doing you know there's a everything there's a step by step like logistic like details every single move there's a reason for it you know there's things around that happens it's the more you know the better you are right the more knowledgeable compared to whatever so I think with the foot locks with the nogi like if you look back you know if you think of used to be seen as a really bad thing to attack the foot it wasn't seen as a good options of attack mainly what is a respectable gentleman don't attack the lake or what no because if you look back you know the Thomas the one they were created all the rules and everything else was to simulate a real fight with no punches we're now having a ghee I mean if you ask what is Jiu Jitsu like what are you trying what's the main goal of jiu jitsu to dominate your opponent what's the middle of fighting it's refining it's of course submission is the ultimate goal but the the you know before that the main goal is to dominate you like we're fighting I have to dominate you and then the submission comes and foot locks it's I don't require any domination on you I don't I I don't need to be in a dominant position to attack your foot and is this if I attack your foot you're still free to knock me out if your body goes down to my foot I can still come close to you or stand up and I'll punch you so it's not a good position to be in a real fight yeah to attacking the foot I mean how many times you've seen that going bad they're going bad in in MMA fight I mean of course you had you know some sort of success with the hookup it's no questions but how many times went wrong people who are knocked out attacking their foot so you can't say it's the best position to be it's it's okay to go but it's a very high risky position to go so that's why it's not in a real situation it's not seen as a good thing so when you translate that to jiu jitsu and attacking the foot is not seen as a good thing because when you reflect that to a real situation it's not going to go down well so he was always seen as a as an easy way out you know easy cut you're trying you're trying to do the easy path you can't pass my guard you can't dominate me and then you're trying to attack my foot that's why I was always seen as a you know it's not as a best a great submission of which win but the sad side effect of that is it was completely underdeveloped because of that of course so people never really developed that but now they do the torments the the fighting it got completely not completely but you got some it's not longer seen as you know as a simulation of the real thing now is uh now's a sport it's only seen as a sport so now it doesn't matter if you attack my foot you cannot punch me so why is it bad now to attack the foot this is not seen as a bad thing anymore and it now it got really developed I don't know that's another Bear versus Shark question but you know there is um in a street self-defense situation it's possible to imagine where foot locks would be effective for a highly but I guess if you invest 10 000 hours it's better to invest it in chokes yeah to dominate you if I'm you know if I were fighting it's way better for me to be on your side control on the mount where I can pin you'll be completely safe then to stay inside your legs trying to attack your foot but people would argue that there's a lot of very dominant controlling positions in the whole football game right it is but it can go bad very quickly yeah just no it I mean this there's some great ways to control someone that he cannot Escape but it can go bad very quickly that's the thing well even back control can go bad very quickly on the street so Mount I don't know is mount a really good position but then then there's no good position then there's no every every position there's a risk okay attacking the foot is a way higher risk than side control mount back as I'm saying the back is not the best way to pin someone unless you underneath me because I if you try to rotate I can sacrifice the back and just allow you push be in the mouth okay there you go would you prefer Mount or back Mount or they're flattened like uh still Mount sorry I gotta get you uh so yeah going back to Gordon what do you think makes that guy so good we were just a ADCC got to see him uh historically dominant performance he's dedication the way he trains and how much he trains and of course you have to add his mind his belief to really try to be good the best or you know I don't know what his goals are but I know he's trying to be better than his opponents so his belief are very strong his dedication he probably trains more than everybody else I mean I'm I haven't seen firsthand it but from what I hear interviews with him and everybody else training I you know the way everybody trains yeah you know trying to for my uh little knowledge I have I I'll bet he trains more than everybody else and most important how he trains and when I I kind of already knew but when I heard John podcast with you the other day John was explaining the preparation the training for the ADCC and that kind of gave me a very strong idea how they've been training all these years so you know when we said it's you have to work on your weakness so you have no weakness he trains a lot on his weakness which not everyone does that you know if you look although I'm not gonna name but you know or the main schools when like very strong competitors great comparatus so super tough people but super tough not great because they train they Spa very hard that makes them tough if you want to be good you have to work on your weakness because when you spaw like we're saying how many times you're gonna practice Escape in a bad position like a submission hold or a pinning position side control Mount or this very little the amount time you get to spend on those positions if you don't start there so that he's very smart the way he trains and part of that is also cerebral it's not just putting yourself in those positions but talking through different ideas like they they talk they like experiment it's very like at at first glance it's like philosophical almost is you're trying to create systems constantly trying to understand how this fits into this big picture and and then it goes back to what is Jiu Jitsu what is fighting he's fighting for dominance you know he's fighting for the ultimate dominance positions which is back him out there's no others and from that you finish so if you look back at his you know over the years thought you know of his past fights before he used to mainly focus in legs and over the past few years now he's mainly focusing in finishing from the mountain back but that's when he became really good uh so part of that is Mr John Donahue what do you think you've you've you've known John for a long time what makes that guy interesting uh special and and good what have you learned about Jiu Jitsu in life from John donoher he's super smart I mean eccentric and he leaves through Jiu Jitsu he's 24 7 thinking better ways to teach how to make his competitors better and that as a coach when you have that dedication as a coach that it makes the most difference of your athletes like which other big team you have that coach with that motivation all the other schools is either someone that competes that push the training like on drug overall it's not he's one of the competitors so he brings the hype in everyone else but he doesn't have the time he doesn't spend the time working individually I mean I'm sure he does but he's limited because he's also a competitor and you know looking most of the other big schools like you don't have that nowadays all the leaders the the main coaches for The Other big schools they have other things all the things in their lives they could not don't fully dedicate it to the athletes John does you know look at the interview he spends hours and hours a day studying how can await a system you know to make his athletes better look at the results I enjoy just sitting back and forth you can actually just get him you control him essentially by sending interesting videos and you could just see his mind he's gonna do research on that because I kept sending him videos of bears because he claimed that a lion would beat a bear because I'd love to get your take on this okay so the bear is much bigger much stronger but his take is that the Bears don't have experience of fighting to the death that's not part of the culture they're more scared in fact he keeps sending me footage of like even like a small mountain lion scaring a bear away because they're they don't want to fight uh so his idea is that it really matters your life experience how much you fight it's not necessarily the skill um like the dimensions the the characteristics you have uh but then I send him I'll show you people should um Google this it's bears fighting of any kind and it's it's pretty much the most epic thing ever here I'll show you like look at these guys the cardio though is interesting you know it's funny I was going to mention that because I was you know flipping to internet I came I came around that video look how big these guys are no they huge but she they don't buy each other you think it's just playing they're trying to no intimidating because they don't want to get hurt so they try to size each other up you know they they'll see the whole fighting his sizing each other up there's a lot of pushing and the the the fur is so thick so the cloth doesn't really damage much and they're using the tree so maybe they they yeah they're I mean there is bites but see there's very little so the whole time they trying to intimidate the other one like winning the fight by their size and mostly about like the way drunk college kids fight which is like some kind of display of dominance versus actual yeah they're not fighting to kill and bear or tiger you know they they fight to Finish unless the odd one runs away like one will die yeah the Lions attacks yeah I uh well look at the cardio look how bad the cardio is I wonder how uh my favorite part is when one of them just like stands behind a tree it says all right he's holding things let me catch my breath he sits down he's like all right you can't it's over it's like uh it's the equivalent in the in the in the forest tapping out all right all right you got me yeah look they're both like uh just shot and but see the thing is that I was trying to make an argument for is that we get this rare footage it's not rare I mean there's like hundreds of videos but it's not millions of videos because there's a huge number of bears and I was trying to say that there's some badass bear we don't know about because he just goes in there and just does work and we just don't know about it because he's like ever see the thing is if you kill a lot of other animals you probably have a territory that nobody's gonna mess with you so it's very hard to catch the uh the like the Hydra Gracie of bears you know he's just gonna be sitting there doing nothing so I don't know I don't know I feel like of course when you Corner him John will say that if you put a bear and a line in a cage the bear will win if it's like if it's the if if they're forced to be to the death but I don't know oh let me ask you another ridiculous thing before I ask you serious questions um so Joe Rogan thinks that a tie um is an effective way to attack somebody I don't know if I I can't believe I haven't in the time in Vegas I didn't talk to you about this I think it's not have you ever explored this it says so as the best choker in the world have you ever explored the use because like Jiu-Jitsu has the jacket but the tie to me is a pretty shitty uh way to choke somebody like intuitively it thinks like it's a good way but it can slide around it's it feels like if it feels like there's no uh there's no way to really pin you would need to right so you use it the way you use a belt yeah essentially yeah but then I would guess so yeah I don't I don't think it's and I think if it gives you it actually has the reverse effect which it gives you the the false sense of confidence that you can use it and instead it'll just distract you so you think is a stronger way than the call or just a strong way yeah yeah I don't see how maybe just like in a street fight scenario right like um but by the time you grab the tie the guy goes punch your nose yeah what what uh what George Saint Pierre thinks is the best use of the ties to actually like a um what do you call that so basically to all balance them which is an interesting point to like um yeah but you could use the jacket for the same kind of thing yeah I don't know I haven't really fully tested it it's a okay for that perspective of unbalancing of balancing the person it can be yeah because you you know you have control of the person's neck the color you know the jacket moves so for the purpose of off balance in the person I would agree with George see the thing is that's the thing about martial arts is you can say all kinds of bullshit but until you really test it in uh over a period of years the competition you won't really know I think like that's where my gut says um just how easily the time moves my gut says the collar there is something really powerful about the jacket there's like the way it sits I mean the fact that the arms trap it from rotating yeah like it's a weird piece of clothing it's a really dangerous piece of clothing that we put on ourselves yeah like and it's kind of cool that we've developed this whole martial arts system that allows you to use that to to do a lot of damage it's very interesting so when we're saying something that you develop over the years of practice over and over again going back to deficience of the amount of back by experience of attacking people they people always had a much higher chance of escaping from the back then from my mouth so it's I feel if if I mount you get both my hands on your neck you cannot Escape if my hands are deep it's over like that I don't remember anyone escaping but I do remember if my hands are deep on your collar or even the real naked choke is still a hassle like super clean you have some data on this is there some aspect to you to how your body is the characteristics of your body then that fits a particular set of techniques so if we just look at Jiu Jitsu broadly do you see most techniques being able to work for most people like uh what you're saying about Mount versus back control is this is it possible for a different body type to mount is not as effective uh yeah of course I'll say very big people make sure I'm out you don't have to give yourself as big not big I mean fat oh they should stay off them out why is that that's a card Mobility it's like it's I think that you know you don't see any you know like those few ways like 160 kilo like you know in pounds I don't know 270 pounds of a lot of fat it's you you need a bit of Mobility and that wouldn't you would play against you so great and even back that great back the same requires Mobility yeah okay so even though it doesn't look like you're moving very much when you're doing Mama that requires Mobility yeah because you have to reposition and wait redistributionally uh adjusting your your body all right the legend goes you got very good by training mostly with lower ranks uh what was your training like in that environment so when I first moved to London I was 20 years old I opened my school there and I had nobody to train with I had one guy that was teaching with me a black belt middleweight it was good and that's it brother was May humu to the same they said he moved to England the same time as I did but he was in Birmingham so we did got together you know maybe twice a week close you know when we were prepared for something if not then not very often as often as we could but like did I say not that often and I had just call about students there was no one high level there was no one world champion in any Bell to train then you need to create a scenario that simulates that can simulates you know like a realistic fighting so I think on that aspect you know when people said you know people ask why they have such a basic game I think that also influenced me sharpening up all my skills when I move there because you know when I'm when if you practice with people you know lower level than you you cannot there's nothing to to learn from them or you know you can learn things and practice with them but outside very complex scenes on them it is not the best so it's I sharpen up all my skills so I you know that when I really improved everything that I already knew to a higher level but how can you sharpen something if the resistance is much lower level than a purple belt okay makes it very hard for you to skip side control doesn't have to be a war Champion for black belt it's you know if it's one is holding you it can be very hard what about on the attack how do you how do you become literally by far the best person at the cross truck from Mount by training with purple belts it's sometimes football belts defense way better than black belts okay see a lot of people listening to that would be like that makes no sense haja Gracie how does that make any sense because like a lot of the black belts even world champion they get to the black belt they're really good enough what in what they do let's see in the guard you know on on top on the bottom position but the difference or not like very very few people high level have a very good difference because they don't practice yeah then that goes back to how you train you know you can be very tough very tough it will make you terrible defense because you're not going to practice your weakness so your weakness still gonna be terrible you can have the best God in the world impossible to pass the day people pass to God you do nothing like it's you your guard is high the highest level but your side control defense or not your mouth defense or not so some purple Bells they practice this you know the the amount way more than that black belt did so the naturally the difference is better so they they get to experience the defensive position much much more and especially training with you they get really good at defending yeah and then over and over again you attack them with the same thing over and over again and didn't know what's coming they will block they will develop a defense over that yeah way better than most other high-level blackboards so both put yourself into really bad positions with lower ranks and just keep attacking the same way over and over and over yeah and with that you were able to be at the top of the world at the World Championships yeah I mean can you give some like what was the preparation like to a world championship with lower ranks I mean um I did a lot of boxing a lot of conditioning no but the conditioning is but they won't seem to help me extremely living in England in London was training Judo at the Budokai in London that helped me massively because he he gave me the motivation to learn something new because it you know that by then at the Budokai you know the stand-up was I'm sure today it is too but by them was even higher than it is today like there was some very high level Judo guys training there and I mean the first time I went there my stand-up was terrible compared to theirs I mean was was bad but compared to them was terrible so I was getting through like a child and that motivated me to kept to keep coming back and and get better so that made my Jujitsu much stronger I became my base got better my top game improved my pressure game improved did uh this Neil Adams train uh Ray Stevens when he I've never met neurologist is that he's the voice of Judo I don't know if you watched the tournaments he's uh incredible yeah Frank Stevens is a you know Superman and silver medalists in the Olympics he won European he won a lot so he did some Judo training what's your favorite throw like uh if I would pick one so that made you better at Jujitsu as well yeah yeah okay and and back then like for the first I'll say maybe three years maybe four I went to Brazil for like two months before every major tournament yeah so I said you know I moved away from the school and I really focused I was really well prepared with my jewelry and everything else sharpen up my skus and then went going to Brazil to train with like really high level people so that way I would manage it to compete in the highest level what uh advice would you give to let's start with a complete beginner so um you know a bunch of people come up to me they still want to start doing Jiu Jitsu what advice would you give them try to absorb as much technique as you can and try to be as relaxed as you can don't you know don't desperately try to fight so hard like learn and move slow move slow and relax that's the hardest thing to do the hardest you know you know what I find with people it seems like it's hard to even know that you're not relaxed it's it's like the introspection they don't even know what it feels like to relax not even know they tense yeah right they're trying to relax you look how you see what what do you mean relax I'm relaxed exactly exactly you feel it and in terms of going slow they're like yeah where I'm going slow no you're you're not uh yeah there's there's a there's a grace and elegance of movement that you could probably pick up from a lot of other disciplines like for me I think that came from just learning piano piano at a young age this for um I think any Mobility thing to learn how to move efficiently you have to know how to relax it's just the fact that you can like the body can be tense so it could be relaxed just knowing that fact now imagine you showed the stints yeah play piano well no yeah everything has to be real life I guess some of that is mind too but just knowing that and being self-aware and you but see like even me um you know approaching a thing I'm not I don't know anything about being a beginner you're going to tense up no matter and like it actually takes a conscious effort to think to relax I mean that's massively that's why learning things as an adult is much harder than as a child like it's very hard and as an adult it's like to get to the highest level it's not possible because you will never relax for the way you should yeah relax in a way that you become like water but then you solidify in the right places yeah yeah is there advice you can give to an adult so like somebody that has a job like a hobbyist like how to progress I mean dude train this just need to train as much as you can no you know five seven days a week because you get gonna get injured I mean two three times a week to start is the best way to to you know to to to to to initiate your judicial journey and practice the same thing over and over again when they don't work it's just because you're not doing well not because you know you have to learn something else do you see some value in just picking a set of techniques that seem to seem to draw your heart in like for example I'll give you an example you'll get a yell at me but uh I never learned the close guard well it just never connected with me you could say it's body mechanics whatever it doesn't matter the point is it's just like my heart never connected with it uh you know the way I Justified it to myself is I felt like when you're bad you're using the close guard just like you could use the half guard to stall so I was really drawn to the butterfly guard as a beginner because I thought that I have or open guard in general uh there's I have no options to stall so I'm going to learn my thinking was let me do the guard that enforces me to learn and then I fell in love with the butterfly garden open guard and so on and I never I never really understood the close guard and the other thinking was do I really need to understand the closed guard because it's always by choice that I go there so I can avoid not I mean you can avoid anything you want I mean you don't have to do anything well in this life yeah it doesn't make you complete yes that means you want to be complete as a this is the question how valuable is it to be complete to get good depends how good you want to be okay let's go uh well there's several questions there yeah okay like to be the best in the world do you need to be complete of course the best in the world of course you have to be complete otherwise you somebody's gonna be better than you but what about like two so to understand to defend you have to be also good at the offense and in every single position otherwise you you have a weakness and someone can capitalizing that weakness okay what about to be like a hobbyist and you don't have to but can you or this is so bad I mean it's not bad I'm nothing is bad I mean if as a hobbyist you start late I mean this it doesn't matter how far you're gonna get as long as you enjoy it just train as much as you can if it's twice a week twice a week it is you you'll be limited how good you will be training twice a week of course then the guy that trains twice a day you know this is the more train the better you get but you have to select what you train that's what I'm asking so I don't know yes but like for how long like there was some point in your life that you might try something so if you like it noted at some point on your life that you might okay let me try close guard you might not like it now maybe in two three years from now well still don't like it I kept trying it listen because listen it's very difficult to get any respect and you just get it's hard to get to black belt and Beyond in Jiu Jitsu at a respectable place and not have a good close guard close guard is then don't do it it's not necessary I'm being a rebel no no it's not it's I'll say because it's not it's not a position that you want the pressure that if you don't know you'll be in trouble you're not going to be in trouble not to know the close guard you're just gonna go straight for open guard I mean that that's not a problem the main limitation is if you don't do a close guard a lot that you don't quite you don't get a full complete picture of understanding how to attack close guard when somebody puts you into a close guard when you're on top so it's nice to know both sides if it's just understand yeah but you can have a pretty good understanding of how to defend from the top and not having any bottom I mean some of it is also just like the length of legs and just the the geometry of your body uh Nick I'm sure Marcelo Garcia is a good close guard but I don't I've never seen that that's exactly that's the point in theory Theory you can imagine it but like for a hobbyist I think it's interesting to think of that like is it possible to is it possible to focus on a small set of techniques that help you to develop of course still into a good job yeah of course and still enjoying and still be most people Hobbies in the judicial World 99 let me put their competes even the people that compete one percent max and you have high level competitors have no clue how close God is okay thank you for me no I think you would say that most people don't have an Coast Guard is such a a such a difficult position to understand For Me Maybe One Day we're brainwash yeah good I I felt it's too easy to stall uh versus attack that that was my main concern is like I want to be forced in every way to um to always be attacking to always be moving to always be and it felt like if I got really good I've seen it happen with half guard too it's like when people get really good at half guard it just feels stully if you just look at this at the matches and so on it's you just slow things down to a thing that's not you don't get reps on learning you don't get action in interesting ways so that was my worry that I'll get old and fat and just sit in close guard all day holding on to the white belts trying to kill me because it's also I mean that's the other thing for hobbyists and for everyone is to like when you first start I think you have to relax in the face of the fact that you're just getting your ass kicked non-stop yeah that can also be really tough on the ego I think the probably the right way to see that is you're growing as a person you see that clearly when they are like in a bad position let's say side mount or mount like a beginner he will never relax from those positions the moment that you say go they like trying to push you out and explode there's no relaxation and work on the Defenders like no it's a out and go until I have zero to give until I'm exhausted my arms cannot move it's kind of fun to watch actually what's the role of drilling did you do you like drilling I do not like drilling but I'll tell you why I think fighting its mechanic right so it's it's very important to drill a move until you learn the mechanic of course it's important if someone want to teach you an arm lock you want to practice that movement until you learn the mechanic of it but the guy's not resisting so it's easy to apply it right so you apply as many times as you have to until you know the mechanic of the moves until you can apply the mechanics the moment that you know how to apply it there's no more pointing drilling now you have to practice now we have to practice with resistance of course you're not going to practice with the guy fully resisting the guys better than you because he's not going to give you a chance to practice that move but you have to practice with resistance so where does drilling comes on that is most of people you know they they flow drill and everything nothing whatever you do you condition in your body to do something is there you know you do you repeat the same move over over and over again your body's conditioning to apply that movement or the technique drilling is not realistic because the other person is not resisting you know the flow movement or whatever after you go beyond when you already know that the the mechanics the drilling with no resistance is not going to teach you anything because you will never know if how to apply the movement with resistance so it's pointless to carry on drilling after you learn the mechanics yeah see but you're making it sound easy to learn the mechanics I would argue you can drill as many times I'm not limiting how much you drill yes you drill as much as long as you had to I mean it doesn't matter how long the benefit of drilling and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate with you the benefit of drilling is that you can more efficiently get a higher number of reps in so what are you gonna gain with those reps understanding the mechanics of the movement and what I would like to argue is you don't necessarily need the resistance to deeply understand the mechanics of something now there's some moves like I bet you you could drill your way to an incredible mount like mile is a good example of that you don't really need a result I can imagine a world in which the resisting opponent is not essential for developing some of the very fine details of the mechanics which one I don't know any what you say amount yes why what are you gonna achieve by resist by drilling with no resistance after you learn the mechanics what I'm trying to tell you the learning the mechanics isn't a thing where you get a certificate and you're done you're going to learn the fine details of the way you redistribute your weight you're going to learn how to move your I don't understand like inside a dead body what yeah like everything you do is a slow process and timing you have to understand moving okay it's the guys resistant like he's not I'm not gonna grab you and apply the movement I need to grab you and feel when is the right time to do like that that it only comes when you with movement if you're not fully resistant how would I know you could infer through it it's like a with no movement with no resistance okay okay let's say you've been drilling for a week yeah five hours a day you should be an expert with the mechanics but now how are you going to carry on with really no resistance no you have exactly yes after that week drilling five times five hours a day the the arm lock you still have no clue how to apply the arm lock against a resistant opponent no clue zero yeah so you don't know the movement you know the mechanic which is you know it's like how long you have to drill and how that doesn't matter it's the various of the person you can do for a month after that month is over you should understand how the mechanic works you still have no clue how to apply the movement against a resistant opponent you will never ever know how until you apply with a fully resistant opponent yeah that's the the only way to know to to really learn the movement yes well put but the question is can you have a small percentage of time when you go against the resisting opponent to get the wisdom and the Insight of what it takes to perform that movement and you spend the large percentage of other time just practicing the mechanics of it so like uh do you need to as you get better and better at technique to basically drift away completely from Drilling and more into the the sparring I I'd like to I just you're like really no I don't like drilling I see I well yes I like drilling I would say uh but I just see it always bothered me in the Jiu Jitsu Community how a few people really saw the value of drawing I see no wrestling especially in the in the Russian style of wrestling like the value of drilling I don't necessarily mean that it's like a dead body or like a dummy or something like that but just getting the Reps in really focusing on the high amount of reps agreed in wrestling in Judo I agree that drilling is very important initial drill a thousand times each move yeah Judo is a really big one for that too it is because is is is the movement the the timing you know is the Precision of the movement yeah it has to be perfectly because this one movement then is you you learn about the timing of the movement when you're fighting but doing fighting you only need to know the time because your body movement is exactly the same when you drill that's really well put yeah the mechanics is much more important there yeah but it's completely different for jiu jitsu because let's say from Jujutsu like the arm lock for example we use that as an example let's see from the closed card even my closed card before I go for the arm lock I need to have set of grips let's see I have your call in your arm right and then you know when you're drilling I'm gonna grab your arm I'm gonna grab your collar and I'm going to drill my body until I can apply the unlock and finish yeah I can do that a thousand times okay now we're fighting we start with the grip the moment that I initiate the amlock attack you will defend the amlok will not work so it's not the one movement that will get me to attack the arm there's a there's a combination of other things that I need to do I need to feel about your weight you know I need to get you close to it there's so many other things involved that I need to fill that only comes with life life with the fully resistant opponent yeah so pretty quickly it has to be live yeah and then he comes how you practice how you train you're starting on that position and just saying let's go and and the moment that we disengage from that position we go back that's when you really learn because everything that you do wrong you're gonna go back there and you're gonna try again try again try again and the repetition it will teach you have a feeling of timing when to go if there's a you know there's other combinations which you always has uh to go with it uh by the way for the internet that's currently yelling at me for arguing with Hydra Gracie about drilling that that's called you know uh Playing devil's advocate to strengthen to explore ideas I'm not actually arguing okay I forgot to ask you um if you had to fight against the bear line gorilla or anaconda to the death um which one would you choose and would you be able to actually to win against any of them what beer a lion a tiger a tiger Anaconda oh a gorilla joke gorilla you can go gorilla I'll probably choose the Anaconda let's see that I mean you're not allowed to run away though so you're in a cage do you have to kill the Anaconda okay I said the other one look I think I have no chance against any other ones I think I have a tiny little hero against the Anaconda I just waited out you don't you don't think it's possible to be I just um it it feels like technique can do something against these animals but they have so much strength so much aggression you know that the real naked choke translating to Portuguese is killed the lion so ever since I was a kid I always thought that made me forget behind a lion the real naked choke which you know in Portuguese it says matalion so matalionis kill the lion so I always thought that that's the only way to kill a lion or to you know to fight him against Allah you go behind and put the real naked choke I think you put him to sleep or the name Mata Leone yeah is like kill the lime yeah someone came up with the name why somebody must have maybe someone should be going to fight with their life talk too much there you go I I honestly do you think also actually yeah you you understand controlling positions do you think like a animal like a gorilla or a lion would shake you off if you had back full you locked in well you say the one that will have the biggest chance of staying there is the lion because it's the thinner body yeah he's smaller than a tiger I'll guess I think tigers are bigger yes so so do you think they can shake you off though I think I'll have a bigger chance of staying against Alliance back than any other animal still answering the question do you think you have a chance if I start on the back I start full locked in full controls let's say it's a small enough line you can actually have a full oh I'll guess so I mean I I would like to believe so okay well like just like you said somebody must have been able to do it throughout your journey in Jiu Jitsu have there been low points because there have been points where you really doubted yourself no I never really doubted myself this low points in defeats those are the low points when I lost how did you deal with the feast I just went back to the gym next week and say I need to get better that every time I lost I'm like I need to get better because I need to choke them out I need to submit them because you know we buy points it's as a black belt I have very very little lost I would say I mean I don't like to sound like a crying baby but I'll say most most of those laws was very very controversial yeah it was not a dominant clear performance this has about referees and points and so on everything that was since I was very young I always fought against my opponent in the referee like it's if there was ever in my whole life since I was a kid those ever a doubt they you always go to my opponent always always that was just something that I had to do with my whole life what's the motivation behind what led to the fact that you win most your matches by submission or indominance like are you chasing because that's the only way to prove you better and I've never I never fought to win tournaments that was never my goal that was the consequence of me trying to be the best like I don't care how many titles I have I care about I need to beat all my opponents and not not win because win is not enough I have to submit them that's the only way to prove I'm the best to submit them if I win by advantage or a point that means I was better than them that day that does not mean I'm better than them if I take her down pass your guard Mountain submit you there's zero questions with the best like there's nothing you can say about it if I foot sweep you you put your butt on the floor again an advantage we're carrying a fighting in a win means nothing not even means I'm better than you and if that happened that would haunt you if this for me is not enough I wouldn't be happy what advice would you give to Young Folks who look at you was able to accomplish from a place where you're not very good to becoming the best in the world at a thing what advice would you give them to uh have a journey like that to have a journey where they could be successful in their career and their life to to such a high level determination is the most important thing you need to know where you're going together so you need to have a go which whatever that goal is like you need to set the goal for yourself so you know where you want to go and to have the determination to get there and be sure that you will fail many times like you cannot let your failures brings you down because you you will fail many times everybody does so you said you didn't look to external sources of uh belief you just believed in yourself is there something to that where um you have to try to like be your own source of belief Flame the fire within yourself was it was that something difficult to do like um my dad was just very natural for me I said you know you can surround yourself with great people that is extremely important don't surround yourself with failures because they will they're not going to push you to you know they don't know what it is how to get there I mean everybody knows but it's when you surround yourself with winners you know you know what it took them to get there used them as an example yeah there's a certain kind of Aura to people that just achieve great things and being around them but it's still it's hard to find people that especially at that early stage any any area here any error that's right yeah greatness has a certain I think it's almost humbling just to see okay any human like at least that's the lesson I learned almost any human can do could be great I mean one I've used Muhammad Ali as a great example look at his belief look at how much he believed himself before he was Muhammad Ali look at the you know determination he had the way the confidence he had fighting even on his loss they never changed him not when you fought Foreman George Foreman I not not one person in the world thought he was going to win that fight by himself he never doubted himself everybody else did he won over All Odds Against so it's I mean you do when you look at people like that you can you don't have to be a boxer to try to you know follow his example but see those are like epic giant battles but I feel like you fight the same kind of battle when you're young and your parents tell you that you know just with their whole energy that this is silly don't be silly don't don't be silly to chase it's harder it is harder but as a kid it's harder to deal with that because I mean to go against adult special parents telling you otherwise like them the amount of strength you need is uh is gigantic I don't even know how much strange you need because that that was not my case so I can understand what you have to go through with the with the force of your parents telling you you know otherwise but it's how much you want it will dictate how far you're going to go where you're gonna go so it's you know if you can break through that you'll get nowhere it's that simple and actually one of the really nice things the internet does that I will give advice to young people is that you can find even even if your parents are not a source of that your teachers your community you can find people on the internet who believe in you yeah it's kind of cool it's kind of cool how the internet opens the possibility of like a community of like 10 11 year olds like building shit I see this all the time engineering the in a I mean they're fueled by belief they want to um they want to be like they want to create the next trillion dollar company right there there's that fire in their eyes and not for the money obviously but to do something really impactful and I think that fire is extinguished Often by teachers and and uh parents because I think the logic that parents have and teachers they look at a kid and they don't on the surface level they don't see greatness right they just see kind of mediocrity and so to them it's like no right the world is more complicated than that in order to get great you have to like like they they somehow kind of always try to be reasonable with you and then so doing extinguish the flame it's weird I think most people afraid so to even try so you can call them cowards for not trying because you are a coward for not trying not putting yourself a risk right so I would say a big part of society are cowards for never trying never pursuing what they really want is so it's there is you know a a weight a pressure everyone most people a lot of people will say around you that because they were afraid to try they they don't incentivize people to do so because they want everybody to be like them because imagine if everybody around you suddenly I'm not afraid and everyone is trying and you look yourself in the mirror and say I was too scared I've never tried so you feel really bad about yourself so it's easier to have people around you that think exactly like you then otherwise so they reflect a lot on the kids it's you know it's Society almost like pressed them down to be like everybody else to have a normal life normal job it's you know don't take risk because you can lose it all I mean that's the worst thing you can tell everybody take all the risks lose it all a few times that's how you're going to build things especially when you're young yes you can recover much exactly what's what's the what's the point of not trying you should try and you should you will lose everything doesn't matter what's what's what what emerits to lose at everything it does matter it will teach you resilience you know try harder go after you know it's don't don't live a normal life because otherwise you I mean what we're here for yeah take big risks take a lot of them fail and failure a thousand times until you succeed and then you're gonna you'll be the most proud of yourself like is this this then it'll be Priceless it's that then we'll change the world it is true that most people are not necessarily cowards but have cowardice in them it's most people are just afraid to try you know and a lot of it comes from a place of love because um you know if you try and you fail you get hurt um and it hurts I mean it's not it's not a pleasant thing to fail I mean you feel terrible to think you know when I lost any time it was a good thing you know when taking when I was getting beat up at the gym over and over again was a good thing when I was getting there and getting smashed by all the good guys I think I liked it well I hate it but it's my resilience that you know make me carry on until I succeed I think I like to get tapped one of the most competitive persons you know I hate to lose bodies I accept I mean I just I just need to get better every single time I lost in the championship I hate you I've never screamed no one never saw me screaming shouting that you know I got robbed you know I should have won the referee yeah but you know screwed me over I mean it's okay it happened shit happens I need to get better because I don't want to be in that position ever again so when I fight if I'm better if I tapped him there's no question I don't need to wait for the referee to decide that that was points or no points if you know his interpretation that made me better because I I was even more determined to be better in my mind I have to tap everybody else winning is not enough it's just objectively speaking what you learn the most from is really wanting to succeed and then failing and doing that often that's the reality from a parent from a teacher perspective from anybody from people you love if they really want to do something help them do that thing if you think they're going to fail good help them do that faster so they fail faster they're going to learn the only way to succeed is failing there is no other way that's what people has to understand without failing there is no success since you've gotten a little softer a little more emotionally open What's the role of Love In The Human Condition Hydra Gracie probably the most important thing that's the basic of everything right it's I mean love brings the best of us it's if we had more love and compassion from from the other person I think would will be a more evolved species the world would be much better place than it is now did Fred's family help you along the way yeah a lot I always had a lot of love and help from many people that's why I succeeded I've never got here by myself I had a lot of people who loved me believed in me and helped me get to be here today well I'm glad they did I'm glad you're here today I'm a huge fan it was an honor to meet you as an honor to hang out with you in Vegas to hang out with you again today I just been a huge fan for a long time uh my pleasure man thank you for everything you're doing thank you for this conversation it was awesome thank you very much thanks for listening to this conversation with hajip Gracie to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Haji Gracie himself Jiu Jitsu is simple you just have to do it right thank you for listening and hope to see you next timein my mind I have to tap everybody else winning is not enough the following is a conversation with hajir Gracie widely considered to be the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now to your friends here's hodger Gracie let's start with possibly the greatest match in Jiu Jitsu history your second match against buchesha let's go through the details let's go through the whole thing so the walk leading up to it you always do this walk it's epic walk you post on Instagram Hanzo posted on Instagram yeah this calm walk towards the mat well let's go to that match in particular what was going through your mind you've been away from competition facing probably one of the greatest and at that time many people consider the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time in bachatcha uh here's the old man the Old Timer getting back out there what were you thinking yeah I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I was in the favor to walk into a fight I have to say like a lot of people thought consider him the favorite I mean understandable you know I was out of competition for a while he was just winning everything so you know saying about the walk like for me you know the five stars way before the referees say go you know it's uh is all the focus on concentration that I think is very important for me to start before like you know I almost walk blind to the Met many times I passed like great friends and I couldn't see anyone you know they're trying to talk to you and I'm like I'm 100 focused on my opponent already even thought that I cannot even see him in front of me so I think that's what me was always uh very important to try to clear my mind out from everything are you visualizing the opponent I'm not just clearing not at that time is there what's what's in your head is it like a calm River with birds chirping what it's flank just blank Darkness yeah Darkness okay and that's what we see in that calmness it's just blankness how hard is it to achieve that blankness it's difficult to say because I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt I try to Focus like that not to think because it's probably something you learn is the more you think the more nervous you get and there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities what you know what you can do what can go wrong what can go right because it's unpredictable you have absolutely no idea it's impossible to predict the fight and you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind it actually is pretty effective it is it makes you feel better it's you know you kind of control your emotion control the adrenaline on your body up to a level so it absolutely helps you you know focus in the fight I've learned that in Jiu Jitsu and in general in life that whenever something feels really shitty you can just like take that thought and not think about it yeah like I do that like on long runs or like a fast run or yeah in Jiu Jitsu especially not getting older out of shape like that feeling of exhaustion well you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion you could just not think about it yeah not think about being exhausted yeah just and that's somehow it relaxes you I think maybe in the face of exhaustion all the fears start to creep in maybe your muscles tighten up I don't know this is for the uh the amateur suggested person but it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it so you get as a black belt competitor you get used to you get good at letting go of any thoughts yeah for Innovation to exhaustion is I mean that's not the good example of it it's you know there's a lot of times in the fight you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired so it's like the last scene you want to think of it is how tight you are it doesn't matter because it doesn't but you're going to quit I mean it doesn't matter yes how tall you are it's yeah there's no value thinking about it there's no value it's you just have to go through it so when you're like uh you know many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do tying your belt catching your breath you're not thinking about anything you're trying to let go of thinking I'm trying to like to save everything to the file like nothing goes to waste it's you know every move unnecessary this is just going to make you more tired or it's going to take something out of you like you know I try to calculate every single Move I Make save as much energy as I can so I can fully you know be focused 100 in the fight with no way especially energy wise and that's instinctual like uh minimizing the amount of moves you're not like explicitly thinking should I do this or not it's just just don't move unless it's absolutely required yeah because fight these you you cannot really there's not really time to think much you know it's like it's just your instincts are playing it's like it's you know you already have your you know your weapons let's say you know you did the things that you do at is just you wait for the perfect moment the beauty of it is you know there's the right moment to everything if you feel one second too late it doesn't work no you get messy so it's you know you're trying to catch that moment that's his you know and for that you have to be fully focused in what you're doing because one second is you out it won't work but you're you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly so the so the moment it's not about how quickly you move it's about uh the right moment yeah yeah it's not like it's speed it's not like you have to move the spirit of life it's it's the move itself at that precise moment it doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving so perfect you know so it's it's a combination of moving between you and him I mean the same thing happens in in Judo and the movement can be really small yeah it's just Jude is a is a bit more explosiveness you know she's the moves are slightly faster so it did no it does require a bit more explosiveness in Judo but even just the right timing for an off balance yeah it's still a little tough yeah yeah it's not that they're you know moving the speed is not going to count that much yeah it's the timing that you initiate that move you see that with foot sweeps there's nothing more beautiful than uh like uh Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics and a person and it's just and you see one man's life flashed before his eyes and realized like I'm supposed to be the top three person in the world that I just find they don't they have this look on their face like I don't know what just happened it's beautiful to see you don't see that I guess you see that unboxing Knockouts and stuff like that you don't know what the hell just happened yeah is it that precise moment of movement that you get caught like is is that one Split Second that's it do you get that in Jiu Jitsu at all because Judo has because of the explosiveness because of the point scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws um has these moments where everything just turns on a single moment do you have that in Jiu Jitsu too not really because Dennis points is you get like you know two points so he's because I think regarding the submission it's not just one precise movement that changed everything I think Judo is the takedown that counts as a submission like keep on fight over Jujitsu don't have that so you will you will score points but I think in terms of submission you need to get to uh in a dominant position first and then the submission will come slowly it's a process yeah okay let's go back to that guy with his mind so actually in the weeks leading up to it in the days and the hours in the minutes is there some fear in you leading up to this I mean I'm not going to say you know that I'm fearless because everybody fears something you know the fear is there but it's like how much you like that controlled you I think I was a lot more confident than fearful that for sure walk into that fight like I I was pretty confident that yeah I could beat him was the source of that confidence my belief going on on me this okay I can take the word you can take anyone in the world but is there specific strategic like uh you know talking to Donahue he believes that there's no such thing as confidence like or rather the way you get confidence is through data like that you have proven yourself effective uh in previous situations but with buchacha you don't you don't have much data it was a very the first time you faced them was a very tough that was also one of the greatest matches of all time it was very tough so doesn't that creep in like that doubt because you know you don't have enough data to be confident based on uh yeah I mean okay if I never have fought before you know somebody walked into a fight with someone like that then would I be that confidence I mean probably no you know so that history of what you know what we've been doing or been achieving those gives you confidence if that was my first fight ever I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that much but the time off uh it doesn't matter it doesn't matter doesn't matter you don't have the fear or the actual physical experience the psychological experience of being Rusty of being honest that will come out on training so you okay so you simulate some aspect of that yeah I mean the trainer will tell you how you are okay did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this yeah I mean I've trained I train normal let's say compared to the first fight the second was a lot more confidence because you know like I said on training the training for the first fight they were terrible so what do you mean I think I was focusing MMA for a while for a couple months and I wasn't really focusing the ghee and you know by the time I accept the fight didn't start training like all my responses on training were off like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed I mean now they like they're beating me you know it's like I cannot beat them the way I I was used to but you know so I knew it was something was not right for the first fight but then it's like is it you know no points is submission or Draw so yeah for people who don't know it was the mother Morris which is a 20 minute match submission only so there's no the winner is determined only by submission otherwise it's the draw so physically I was I wasn't myself on that fight I was tired you know my body wasn't responding anyway so that so the conflict was different from the first the second I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me and I trust on my defense I'm confident enough for my defense that he will not top me out but in terms of winning you know walking to the second fight I was a lot more confident what can you say about that feeling when something's not right it's not a thing that breaks people these three breaks it's weird like people crack they give up you know this is is a big test because it's it's like being really tired it's the same thing it's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more there's not having nothing more to give so they just like give up it's too hard so what do you do just again take the thoughts out there's no giving up I mean I don't mind I don't care like you you're just giving up it's not enough it's not that's always the way you thought yeah about Jiu Jitsu yeah I I'm never gave up I mean I tapped it's you know not giving up it's not not typing that's just stupid especially you know doing training like it's I get caught I tap I've never ever hurt myself by not tapping I get you get angry you know it's train hard you know improve make it make yourself better you'll go caught accept that you made a mistake give up tap then try harder so you know the not tapping it's you're sacrificing your body and you know you'll never be the same like if you let your elbow popped the air will never ever be the same ever you let yourself go to sleep your resistant drops so this everybody has a has a limit of resistance until they you know to resist a choke before you pass out the moment that you you you go to sleep that resistance will dropped that's why I've never heard anyone say yeah that's awesome so that's true so tap this so that's the reason because people usually say it's no you can somebody is the same or you're getting knocked out you get knocked out the first time your resistant dropped your drug weak gets weaker so just for the record I've never gone to sleep again which uh means my resistance is high right I don't know it must be oh your defense is pretty good I I don't know about that no no I would um because it doesn't make sense to me or maybe in my case I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good yeah like there's no you're not in trouble yeah one of the things I regret the most about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having given enough time to um being in really bad positions like the better I got I think the less I started being in bad positions that's like the that is how you train yeah because you should just Spa When You Spa like it's difficult to to be in bad positions a lot and you train with better people but I mean let's say five six minute rolls how long you're going to be in a really bad position not long right so you don't really have time to develop that's why people they don't you know they don't train be in bad positions because you have to stop there over and over again to be used to it yeah or put yourself there I just didn't have that mindset I think I think you start I mean part of the fun of jiu jitsu's as you get better and better you have certain people you go with you have these puzzles that you've figured out that you're playing very specific details you're working out you're trying to improve your main like techniques and so on but yeah just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or being or trying even going against like Laura ranks trying to escape basic submissions is low I I don't know if that's true for most people probably is right most people have very bad defense yeah because they don't allow themselves to be there because I mean who wants to get tapped because you will until you you know to work on your defense of course you're gonna get tap or you know you're not gonna Escape you're gonna struggle to escape so people they don't want to be there I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had and how I competed it it was it was clear that my competition was was constantly driven by a conservative thinking like don't take risks I think because of a weak defense honestly and I think uh a lot of the any of the fear like uh for example exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense I think if I were to psychoanalyze myself and I regretted it I regret it a lot um but speaking of which I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition so you're well I was a juvenile yes yes so so when you were a young person yeah six is that still haunt you I know first I was winning that fight by a large I mean I think by six points or four something like that but I was like I was going to remember it though huh by the details again he never competed again hi whoever you are please uh let's let's do a podcast uh no but what do you attribute to that too you're saying you're confident you're confident that the top of the world the number one puchesha would not submit you um so where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you first you come down training you know I train a lot bad position like my defense is good because I I practice over and over again as much as I practice all my offenses position so it's you know you have to train both equally it's not just being a good position you have to be in bed so I think that's a very strong part of my game you know to be a complete fighter you know at least a complete martial artist you have to be good in every single position every single one those that you're not you have a weakness so it's you know to be complete you should have no weakness so that was always my you know I was always very uh particular on that like it's one of my weakness where am I what I don't feel good at it if you put me in a position to a struggle how to escape how do I get out everything any submission locked Penny position you know back mount everything it's doesn't matter which position up I practice over and over again so that when I if I get there in a fighting situation I will know how to get out at least I'll have a direction you know I would know this is my way up do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position avoiding it because that's how it happens you know Jiu Jitsu you start in a neutral position now the transition then it then becomes the fight itself you see it's being there is the most important is when you're there then you have to know how to get out that's your weakness how I either stopping the person getting that something different they're two different things it's you you either you practice one or the other so but both are important I guess but the the stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training yeah what was uh the actual process like what was your biggest weakness throughout your like you just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out uh I mean outside control is always is the bottom of second bottom it's regardless how much you you practice it's not that very easy you'll never be easy but it's so annoying it makes no sense yeah someone pins you down this doesn't want to move much he's a big and strong guy regardless of who is not going to be to escape so some situations are just hard it must be the sorry to interrupt I'm interrupting hydrogracies but but you just made me realize if you're really good if you're if you're going against like the perfect Jiu Jitsu competitor probably side control might be one of the hardest positions is that the hardest position to escape is one of them if the person doesn't want to progress It's concerned about it yeah like the best pinners in the world I mean partially because I've Just Seen Judo people that know how to pin yeah they scrape this I control is a nightmare it's a nightmare doesn't matter how much you practice yeah it's a nightmare and it's also just frustrating uh I think I guess it is also frustrating because a lot of people in that position will be about maintaining control not progressing yeah and usually people in their mouth and back control are usually trying to progress towards a submission which opens up opportunities for escape so what's the actual process of just time and time again putting yourself inside a bottom side control yeah over and over again starting that escape back Escape get back if you mount you get back any situation outside that stop start again stop start again and it has to be I'll say five minutes because it's the repetition that will teach you you know if you train like three minutes on top you have time to you know one thing and then time up is the right position there over and over again you know when you try to say move over and over again then you see what can go wrong and is that understanding the details of the movement are actually doing the movement and feeling it it's it's both first you have to understand the movement and then practice but most important thing is defense Escape coming second because if you know he's attacking you the one thing is if he's not trying to submit you but the other one if it is let's say if a person is very good has a very good attack the first thing is defense not just Cape you can expose yourself to a even worse position because that is is very risky when you're trying to escape you'll always expose yourself to a worse position so avoiding that it's you know first is defense not getting caught and then when you're Skyping don't be no worse position so defense uh Engineers when you're wearing a ghee what does defense entail is it mostly grips is it mostly the positioning of your hips and legs is is everything together because it's a whole body movement it's you know it's constantly moving off your arms legs body it's it they you know they they have to everything works together going back to the mind of that guy uh so confident no fear at this point is there a bit of ego in there too yes like I say no I'm not gonna say I'm fearful I'm fearless of course This concerns that fight I would have to say was probably the fight that I got nervous the most walking in because I knew what that meant that fight I mean everything for me all my legacy was on the line because you thought I lost that fight though forever will be number two yeah forever and I mean bushesh is is a great great guy great competitor judicious is very good but I'm better than him I knew that it's like he's competing non-stop with them he's uh he's a great competitor you know taking nothing out of him he's super tough very very tough very good it's probably the best competitor introducer and he won 13 times the world championship I won 10. so as a competitor you know he has more titles than I do so but in terms of you know analyzing the game I consider technically better than him so knowing all that everything that I build all my legacy it's if I was writing on this match if I lose this fight I'm forever number two and none of that is going going through your mind I know I knew I mean it's not at that moment that I I already knew that I remember just before you know the curtains open I'm standing in before they call my name and I mean my legs were like I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs and I'm like you know I'm hitting the legs I'm like wake up you know get off get adrenaline off me you know so it's it was it was intense it was intense and this was in Rio that was Unreal so my hometown so this is I mean and you know Rio is is not exactly known for its calmness in its fans so this is like wow wherever they hosted the Olympics the year before yeah so this is like I mean this like the whole basically martial arts Community is watching this stuff like yeah I mean is there some uh was henzo there yeah yeah so people are just I mean there's attention it's also I mean I don't know if you felt that in part but you're also fighting for the Gracie name yeah in the in our hometown the greatest where the Gracie really is crazy competitor of all time arguably in the hometown yeah I mean okay all my family my best friends my friends everybody watching everybody there there was a lot of pressure a lot see and then were you thinking that you would be able to submit him no it's at that point like I don't predict how the fight will go that I never did because it is unpredictable it's I never tried to set any strategy for any fight I think oh okay that I did but that was the only time that I said any strategy into a fight there was a 15 minutes fight that and for I said first five minutes I'm gonna play defense he's bigger stronger younger I don't want to play his game and I know he comes in very fast every single fight he had you know he comes very aggressive so my strategy walk into the fight let's say five minutes I'm gonna play defense I'm not gonna try to attack I'm not gonna try to match his space I already expected you know maybe I'm gonna start losing the fight because you know if he comes in there's a risk of me maybe getting takedown you know something happened I'm like I'm gonna stick to the game plan five minutes I'm gonna start picking up the pace because then it's 10 minutes to go which 10 minutes a long fight so I don't need to stop fast but I'm gonna stop being more aggressive and then you know try to take him down up who God you know but by then I'm like that's as far as strategy goes there's no specific uh stay on the feet were you comfortable being both bottom and top and this yeah strategic I'm always comfortable being borrowed top I prefer to be on top because being in the bottom the personal topic takes the pace of the fight because he's on top over you so I always prefer to be on top because I can dictate the pace I can Implement my own pace and being the bottom they can Slow Me Down so it's harder so if I can choose I will always be on top but I think by then I was like it's you know five minutes hit it I'm like he's pretty big and strong I'm gonna spend a lot of energy taking him down I forgot how did it how did it feel so here you're stepping in by the way puzzle masks this is old school as old school as it gets so calm and relaxed here for people just listening we're watching the early minutes of the match yeah so just feeling it out he seems pretty calm too he must be nervous too I wonder how do you ever talk to him you guys are friends yeah yeah we're friends did he ever say how nervous he was no we never spoke about that fight no no he probably lays uh late at night thinking about it maybe I don't know that SOB yeah I mean so you see the first five minutes no he kept I knew what he was going to do in my study his game his stand-up is most basic is basic in takedowns uh leg attacks double leg so you go single double and he charges in that is pretty much his stand-up game so you try you get you get a grip yeah that we got penalized so do you like to uh use the do you like to post with your left you have a right foot forward usually you're righty right I'm ready but I know he wants my leg so I'm I'm playing my stance just because of this game oh you know all my grips are that the first five minutes was to kind of try to neutralize his attacks so he wants to get your left leg Yeah uh yeah right there yeah so how hard is that to stop that I mean he felt pretty strong so I'm you know I'm pushing the head down trying to play with his balance yeah if if you if you see it there was a pause go back there he charged in there's a pause me standing in front of him yeah I did that on purpose what do you mean just uh it's just in front of him because you know he tried yeah and I'm like you fail I'm here there's a okay so you could feel the frustrations I could feel his frustrated his frustration not be able to take me down okay so now and this is just psychological battles and you see me walking straight into the middle of the mat and he's circling out yeah see I'm going very slow I'm recovering and he's Computing like shit yeah okay it's because he just made a you know effort trying to take me down he needs to recover and I mean you you need to recover the other guys there waiting for you yeah enjoy do I go for another takedown because this one failed yeah do I need to recalculate the strategy yeah and he kept trying over and over again and keep failing I think that frustrated him a lot on that fight I fell I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly because he was getting nowhere so we're five minutes in yeah he keeps so you never got that takedown in the in the early no let's see so at this point do you pull guard yeah okay so that's when I fell like he's he's mentally he's he's not he's worried now did you try to pull close guard here no I knew he was going to bring Danny in okay because that's the defense against pulling closed guard yeah but I like that what he I like people bringing the knee between my legs because see I'm gonna close my guard even with this lagging okay he is he's he's stopping the club well this is this is awkward but yeah I was holding his arm that's why he felt he had no hand to post got it but still it puts a leg in but you're able to close your guard around if you're okay with that I do that really well at three people from that position a lot what's the sweep I guess just pushed okay it's just a pledge to your left side yeah okay because he has no oh it's almost like uh you mean you're basically around his back a little bit like he knew that like I swipe a lot of people with that sweep so you you see he kept leaning to his left to my right yeah so I want to push them to my left so you see him leaning over to my right a lot what's the right answer for him to like roll or something no I mean he's stuck he does not really he's stuck there but the one thing he did he kept off me completely see that he's leaning yeah true like he's too afraid of my attack now because he that you know he should lean on me yeah you know you should bring the fight to me so when I fail him you know I I knew he was like he's too worried about my attacks now oh yeah that's right so he can't yeah he comes back to the center he has no like so he's not engaging at that time he's a hundred percent just defending so I felt that I'm like he doesn't want to engage and he's looking I knew at that point he wants my foot because our first fight I had this like the same position I wasn't holding his arm and he went to attack my foot which he did you know he got into hold or what okay yeah so I know he's looking at my foot which foot sorry the left my right yeah my right foot okay so I'm hoping he's hiding it I'm holding his arm and now you're going to the back it's an arm drag type of thing so the moment that I came off now I'm here I'm holding his arm so he cannot come up so he's you know I'm holding his left arm so he cannot post a hand on the floor and come up and he's holding it right to try to get you yeah basically to prevent you from attacking yeah oh that's interesting and he rolls yeah he tried to he tried to get me off balance so see now I'm switching I switched the grip on his arm so I can free my left arm can I ask you a question like uh was there a chance he sweeps you here I mean there's always a chance but very bad yeah but see my left arm is free uh so you can post yeah why was your left arm free oh cause you're using it you got it got it okay and now I tried the hook now you will see yeah but what I knew his Hispanic because he did a move that he completely opened himself up like I'm holding his left arm so by holding the arm his that prevents him from defending the hook on that side because his arm is being hauled across so their arm cannot block the hook and I mean the hook with your left leg Yeah okay so you see when he come up but I would say I mean that's my guess but bushesh is he's a big guy you know he's like 110 kilos 112 something like that which is 245 yeah all right yeah so what were you at the time uh less 220 yeah 220. a nice slim 100 kilo okay so it hits his defense are not amazing he's good but you know he's not known to have amazing defense so by being the big guy in the room when you train you used to get out of situation because of your size you shake people off you know it's it's because of your size you shake them off you get off some bad positions you can I mean I could feel on the first fight I'm side control you know something he explode out so you know you I've seen him doing that a few of his fights no you're not in the most technical way just I'm getting out and he did because of his size so and he did the same thing like he tried to stood up when I'm on his back did he completely open up the hooks he will see the next move his head gonna come up and he's gonna try to get off the floor so basically come up shake you off kind of energy there was no difference for the hooks I put both hooks in straight away his arms yeah I'm off balance yeah see I didn't bring him up he came up yeah and now I'm attacking his neck and he's worried about the hooks that's fatal mistake that's like defense always come first remember what I just said now the defense first Escape second so he's not worried more about the points than his neck so it was like a a progression of mistakes that's why I think he did he go frustrated when he couldn't take me down and then when I pulled God he was he was he was frustrated that the fight wasn't going his way you know he's very good about taking down he tried over and over again for five minutes and here he was frustrated about the hooks so he's like it's almost like the frustration things like no no these folks shouldn't be here like I pull God on the grips that I want he's not comfortable inside my God he's not in a position that he wants to be he's over leaning to his left you know to to to not he's not engaging or trying to pass he's trying to get the foot but his arm is trapped he's gonna get nowhere and then when I swapped him thundered his words are collapsing you know he couldn't take me down I pull God I'm swept him he tried to roll me over no you didn't get me anywhere the first movement that he tried to escape I'm on his back I mean now he's lost yeah that if you just go back to him standing up see both who goes in no defense like there was nothing on the way of those hooks coming up you're you're high enough on him to where the weight was just probably immense it just felt too heavy man you got it you already got you're already you're already going for the choke huh of course there's no time to lose look at that yeah so you're not like worried I'm gonna get shaken off you're going for the trip okay no shaking me off I'm on your back now we're in this together and your your right hand is opening up the lapel my right hand is holding his arm sorry yeah like you're holding the sleeve but holding the sleeve and I'm already going for the neck because it's timing at which point do you let go of the sleeve and open up help with the power do you not need it no I did that but first I want to try to make a grip like then I need to establish control Before I Let Go his own got it so I kept holding that a bit longer and then when I fell okay I have a good control over the back then I Let Go do you okay so you have like a light grip on his lapel but you're thinking you need I need to adjust that you need to adjust it you're like holding it there and you're thinking okay at some point I need to adjust all I need all I want is to get under his chin then I noticed I mean now I can't go for it because if it's over there's no choke right the wrist needs to be on the that's just not right okay it's not right or it doesn't work it both it's not writing doesn't work I mean would you tap the choke on your chin no just pressure have you you heard but it's not going to choke you out I don't know I don't know I'm not let me argue this I love this arguing with Roger great thing about jokes this is great okay like clock joke it was always interesting to me because in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on them and face and so it was kind of liberating for me to be allowed to have our gear on the face no it's just liberating no you don't have to worry about it like of course it's more effective to go under the chin but I'm surprised just because the amount of pressure like it's all about how much you can take it you can take a lot but it feels like no it doesn't feel comfortable I mean sometimes on your mouth it cuts your mouth now you're bleeding you feel horrible no but it feels that's not the feeling the feeling it might not be a joke but the feeling like like it's a pressure that everything's just closing in but but it doesn't take you anywhere like you're not gonna go to sleep you might not go to sleep so it's just pressure yes so pressure he hurts is uncomfortable but it it is not going to break your face and it's not going to put you to sleep so if I don't get the neck I don't go for the kill I'm like I'm I'm holding the the his collar you know my my wrist is almost under it's you know I I'm trying to kind of dig in if if I can't dig in then I will adjust the call but first I need to dig in I dig in first and adjust can you do all that with one hand or no I did so you can tighten the choke with just one hand no I need the second one to open the level but you're like digging in with one I'm digging it under the chin yeah this is under now I need to go deeper but that the going deeper requires a second hand it does okay it does and but that requires you letting go of the other hand yeah I have to let go eventually yeah I see all right yeah well that's over yeah because I'm already under his like the first hand got under the chin do you need the a hand on the second level yeah of course otherwise he turns and he's out that's the control of the Turning versus the tightening of the choke yeah he does both it helps tighten the collar and stop the person rolling out will you feeling pretty good about this position yes I just felt it's getting tighter tighter tighter tighter because he wasn't super tight from the beginning he wasn't like the perfect joke so we're still I mean I knew it was like it's very close to the end but you know he was I still need the just that was still the risk of maybe escaping is it possible for his head to slip up yeah is it possible yes but I'm closing that Gap yeah and here what does that feel like relief relief like awesome amazing somebody on Reddit ask ask him about the Cross grip he used to sweep followed with the genius grips which when buchesha was inverted did you use a cross curve when you sweep did you I guess the Cross grip in the arm that must be oh that's the cross group okay uh what's the genius behind that or was that just the uh do you like that kind of that kind of grip yeah because I always like close guard and no one wants to be in anyone's close card right it's open God is the step to pass so everybody when you try to close the guide they bring them in the middle like if you if if you're not standing if you're lower on the ground and the open guard if you're close to me you need that knee between so it's a must that's when I start developing the attack you know I managed to have long legs to close my legs around people even with that and then I just developed that sweep when did you start developing that like I don't remember when but I would say before black belt Okay so your answer to that is not to figure out how to prevent them from putting the knee in is there an answer to that no the good guys will always no you can't remove that leg out of the way that's not possible well maybe off balance them enough to wear this now no okay I mean you you can try but like it's hard you know he's kind of honestly you'll sweep them right so that means gonna so you're gonna have to say it's not full sweep yeah because that's is the is extremely common to have that I mean I if if I'm on your guard open guard you know if you have your legs you've found between both of your legs in the open guard mind you will be between your legs because it's a must my knee cannot be on the floor sometimes I was there what did he tell you before I think just motivate you I think that's hands will always do that fantastically well to motivate me like before I fight a match I think that you know the confidence you know he's you know his energy being around you it's I think that's the is the great thing to have hands on your corner it is the motivation that he gives you what did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life from Hanzo Gracie we got to hang out with him in Vegas a little bit he's a character he's one of the uh historic coaches and Jiu Jitsu competitors but also Personalities in the martial arts world in in the world in general there's very few like them hands was a fantastic person it's it's you know what I've learned most from him is like it's you know you can't take any challenge it's you know it doesn't matter when where yeah well you know who it's you know you have to be ready and you know with that war spirit that he has he you know he always took any challenge Ready or Not Ready was it you that said it or he said it where uh not until you go in you know to do something difficult to discover the strength that you have so like like if you really think about it you might think that you don't you're not good enough you don't have the strength to take on something difficult I fully agreed I think we are measure not when we're on the strongest but when we are on the weakest that's when we truly measure ourselves or character who we are not we're in a position of power or when our position of weakness have you surprised yourself like how damn good you are like is this is this really how good I am in this situation where in retrospect you might think how the hell was able to accomplish this not how good I am because otherwise I wouldn't be there so you know being there in the first place it's it's already not a great thing but I say you know I've every single time I found myself there I was super proud that I've never cracked like I've never gave up ever any second any fight never never been broken in competition never even it's not about winning or losing is about you giving up I've never doubt myself I always fought to the very end always that I'm most proud of because there was moments you know it's you're in a terrible position you know mainly like there was moments that I was super tired but like exhaustive tired when and it was easy to give up like I had nothing more to give but I pushed I took energy out of my soul I would have to say because when my body had zero my you know my spirit my soul pull it out is that in part just not allowing yourself to have um to have to ever ever quit yeah I have uh one other thing I regret I remember like a blue belt match I remember I'm not gonna say who it was against but uh I remember just being extremely exhausted and um just constantly fighting a guy was really good Mount really good guard passing and I just remember um him passing my guard eventually it was just like a finals of one of the ibgf tournaments and then right away going to mount and just I don't know I the the level of frustration I mean I quit at that point I said I remember that still like I it's not about losing winning or losing but I just remember I was like like I was like teary-eyed frustrated and then I knew there was a lot of fights still left even in there somewhere and I I quit and I regret that to this day because uh I think the reason I regret that is because it gave me an option to to now quit in every other aspect of life like that this is an option yeah it is it sucks yeah it teaches you you know it makes us stronger it's actually made you stronger uh yeah it makes you stronger that you did that to learn that don't do that again um but still like you said just going to sleep in training I do think it made me weaker it did make me weaker in the rest of my life too that those you know I've quit a few times in my life on small things and you realize okay it's not that big of a deal it's fine like who cares um but that what you learn over time is that voice always comes there like uh uh obviously maybe it does for you too even at the highest level of like it's not that big of a deal like it's okay to quit here like it makes sense I really would understand um you know in some sense like you're uh you know many people would say you're past your Prime in this match with the procession like it makes sense you've been focusing on MMA makes sense yeah it makes sense to lose yeah I don't know that that's a weird voice and in some sense uh it's that voice and a voice that says like why are you doing this like this is silly that doesn't make any sense just just stop just stop just stop and uh shutting that voice down and never allowing yourself to quit that's a really powerful thing like everybody I've met everybody that's successful um yeah down to the even Engineers CEOs Elon Musk just never quitting like when everybody around you it says quit never quitting it's weird I don't know what that is might be genetic it might be like using the stubbornness to just never allow yourself to um develop that it's basically developing a calluses to that voice that tries to tell you to quit you never quit huh what would you attribute that to it's like how much you want to get to the destination you chose like you know it's how badly when I get there it's if you quit you're never gonna get there and you always wanted to I always wanted is there some thing you remember from that match some things that happened before and after that stand out to you just since in Rio yeah there was an interview you know like prior to the fight you know there was a big fight we don't like media every day before we know me and him we're meeting for media and like five days before you know five six days before I'm quite chatty it's you know the closer we get to the fight the more Focus I get the less I stop joke around playing you know with people but I remember I think it was maybe three or four days before we were doing an interview together I think I think my cousin Kira was there she was doing one of the interviews with us and I don't remember exactly what we were talking about but I just remember we'll talk about the fight of course and then it was original with standing beside each other and I'm like and then I you know suddenly I chop and I grabbed him by the neck I say well I'm gonna tap you by the neck and then he's like you know very shy yeah and then I let go see no I'm gonna tap it by the arm and I could feel he was like he wasn't comfortable you know with being there was you know me saying that I'm gonna tap him out there was like I was so relaxed joking about it but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him out in a fight that we're gonna have him for this time and yeah I felt he was like not comfortable at all do you think you got in his head a little bit to give you a little bit of confidence yeah you've said that you just is a reflection of your personality so both your jits and your personality there's a calmness what is that why are you so calm is there in like an ocean underneath that's boiling is this developed or is this your personality are you basically leveraging who you are already to develop a game around the Jiu Jitsu or the Jiu jits and make you calm I think both I I was always very calm since I was a kid you know since very young I was never very you know fiery person so that is a reflection you know you reflected on my reducer of my life all my fights the way I fight so it's a direct influence of my personality and I think he's also in the day you know you develop the more the more you practice the more you fight it's like you know you don't want to get nervous you don't want that adrenaline and so you just learn how to shut that off from your mind so the less I thought about it you know it's like how many times I fought you know let's say the week before the fight that's when you stop more because when you're concerned the most because now it's getting very close before it's just far away you know it's it's normal to think of the tournament you get a bit nervous but it goes away quick but the fight you know the week before now you're constantly thinking of that day and every time you think adrenaline pumps in your heart accelerate you know it doesn't you know it makes you it's like why am I feeling this what difference will it make so you kind of you sharing that thought out of your mind because you don't want to feel the adrenaline your heart accelerating it's not gonna add you anything so it's you know it's the practice also that I think I helped me to shut that off my mind has that helped you in regular life yeah of course it's you know it's suddenly when you go into any any situation that might be stressful you know like an important meeting no super whatever it is it's like how much would you worry about that before what it is not going to help you anywhere it's the opposite just gonna make you more nervous you're hard to accelerate your ability to think clearly is going to be damaged by that so it's like they're more calm the more relaxed you are the better you can think of do you ever get angry yeah like in traffic do you ever get like not calm just like you're screaming not not in a screaming no but just angry what does the angry look like is it still calm yeah like you know a few seconds of complaining but then it goes away have you ever like thrown a cell phone at a wall or something like that I think just that no I never get that angry because that's just silly it's like it's it's it's if I would have done that I would not be able to control my emotions prior to a fight letting yourself lose yeah uh and losing control that will reflect other times do you think it has uh make in part made you more emotionally closed off from the world like you're you're it's harder for you to be vulnerable to others probably yeah but I I heard that a few times I'm emotionally close it's yeah maybe that I think that influenced it yeah have you ever cried in a movie yeah for not for many years before I think maybe I'm getting older you remember the movie something nice I mean it's no I mean not the notebook I mean I would say the last few years I've been crying more than before for some reason I don't know why like silly movies like nothing suddenly brings tears to my eyes yeah well I really I already just having met you and interacted with you I can see that you're kind of opening your heart and mind to the world you could you could see like here's this historically great athlete now like the wars have been fought and you're now like waking up to the world it's cool to see probably I'm bringing my guard down now I don't have to keep it up all the time you can even do some podcasts um you said you watched like movies beforehand sometimes mentioned Braveheart what were you doing did you watch something beforehand like the day before I used to yeah there was like I think Brave hard and Gladiator I mean there's a few others that I've always watched the day before because the day before I used to do nothing yeah I just want to be at home in bed watching TV like saving you know the energy stretching by myself so it's like it's I just want to save energy I don't waste my energy going out going around so you know it's those are the movies that I always like to watch kind of trying to bring some you know hyper excitements like you know I'm getting ready to walk tomorrow so I'm like let me watch some movies they're like brother you know some that Warrior Spirit yeah into me yeah what is that about human nature Braveheart I love you know even more should you put your life on the line for a thing that matters or run away just so you can live it's like running you may live but like years from now when you look back at this moment uh would you trade all the days yeah just to come back and to this moment and tell the English you could take our lives but you can't take our freedom I mean oh man what is that about human nature um is there some aspect of like the glory you were able to achieve being more important than anything else there's some aspect of that that that's that's greatness you know yeah I never pursue Glory so it's it just came you know it is it came with it but that was never my goal I never care for Glory were you able to experience like like I'm at the height of this thing whatever whatever humanity is able to achieve in various things holy shit I'm flying I felt like no one can touch me I can destroy people yeah prolonged periods of time or just momentarily I I always knew you know from before I got to a black belt that like I I you know it's I can be great because my program you know I used to train with the best in the world I used to you know it for many years and I used to see my progression with then everybody else so I knew I was getting somewhere I know I could be the best and that was that was always my goal since very very young and I always believed that I could be and that over the years that kept telling me over and over again because I'm getting better and better faster than everybody else so it's I just need to carry on with what I'm doing but I think you've said that you wanted to and maybe you thought you could be the greatest of all time like at the very beginning like when you sucked yeah yeah not not the greatest of all time because and I never really thought about that but I thought I'm gonna be the best in the world when I saw it when I saw okay so what is that uh what is that like that's self-belief is there a component to that self-belief being a prerequisite it's difficult to say because that was a decision I think like why did I believe that could be I I can't tell you that because I don't know but you think you decided I decided to I decided to be and I believed I could I think there was like a day somewhere when you were young where you're like huh you're sitting at a couch eating Cheetos I don't think it was them a day like a moment because for many years is I wasn't really training much as a child you know I've done a bit of I used to train and then stopped on a bit of Judo never stay away from it much but until you know it like from 10 to 14 I barely trained juji so much I used to there was no gracious school near where I used to live and I was doing there was a judo school I used to go twice a week I'm going to introduce torment I lost in five seconds left cried the guy he pulled me in five seconds anyway so when I was 14 I went to the south of Brazil to see my uncle Helen to spend some summer holidays I was there for like four weeks I think and I want to go there my cousin Hollis were living with him Holly is like bigger than me it was I think it's four years four years older so I was 14 I was already 18 17 18. purple belt comparator and I think that was the first time in my life that I felt what it mean what it meant to be a greasy in terms of having a school teaching training you know living that you know judicial lifestyle what a crazy mean to be and I've just I've loved that it was out of shape my uncle was like you know incentivizing me to lose weight to train but you're not training why you know it's like give what a shape you need to diet so I used to run every day I was eating super well I started you know I started that when I start changing so when I go back to Rio was super motivated to follow up carry on and he you know he invited me to go back there to live with him but I couldn't it was too soon in to change schools and everything my mom said no but maybe next year if you want to go you can so I kept that in my mind next year hey I moved to the South to live with him I was 15. and it was him my uncle Helen and my uncle crawling they both used to live very close to each other they used to have their own schools close to each other so I was with both and I stayed there for almost a year I mean I was the youngest in the academy there was some you know blue purple Bells normal guy but they're very competing training ahead of me and I just joined the group of training I didn't compete while I was there because there was no composition that then and I wasn't really ready but it's not about company it's more about the training and I start training every day start improving and year after that when I came back to Rio I was already on a mission I was like I love this I'm just carry on training every day because my uncle Carlos Carlos Gracie Jr Grace about and the one I got there I was training a little bit that before but I just 14 15 but when I got there there was a you know there was one of that was one of the most competitive one of the biggest Jiu-Jitsu schools at the time there was so many high-level World champers competitors in every single belt and so and I've kind of joined in with that and I've carried I don't remember when but I remember you know looking and saying I'm gonna be the best in the world but I used to be I was at the bottom of the stairs you know no one really believed me I didn't shower you know to disguise but you know I told a few people I'm like I'm gonna be the best and that's I think up I was just losing but I've never ever doubt I've never divert from that Mission outside did anyone believe you when you said you could be great nobody did it matter it didn't matter I don't care I don't need even people that like love you everybody my mom my dad not me no one thought no one in my family thought I was gonna be here today nobody because I just started late you know I've I've never had any start that people or that kid's gonna be really good you know I'm always a chubby kid that didn't barely train I mean people used to look at me he just another greasy this you know one more what do you learn from that do you think most people lose that self-belief they quit when everyone around them doesn't believe yeah I think if if those that need approval yes but I see you shouldn't have approval and I'd never need approval from anyone I don't care if you we believe you're not if you not my problem it's tough it's tough I don't need approval but you're surrounded by people older wiser better than you and they're kind of directly or indirectly saying you stop being silly kid no one ever told me that because I I it's not that was not something that I used to say all the time I'd maybe say it just very very few times I just go you know maybe that's the secret of course I mean if you start shouting then you've just been silly then it's not what you really want then you're saying that for another reasons if you say it over and over again because you shouldn't I mean that's why well to push back one of the reasons you might want to say it is to find the right people that believe in you yeah but more if you say over and over again then it's just then you're just bragging sure because one thing is to say it but the other one is to do it so it's you know you say that once or very few times but now you have to do it saying it's not helping you getting there was there sacrifices you had to make everything everything that was my priority in life everything was secondary like social life career paths yeah everything and is it from 14 15 16 as you get better and better and better and better it was just becoming sharper the focus on this thing yeah it's just over and over again over and over again it's you know it's just training training training and I mean how many times I lost I I have had no clue so on the mat you were getting beat up I'm getting smashed by everybody people my age I was chubby I was physically weak I mean I'm tall but physically I'm not physically strong I'm normally strong for my size but physically if you want to measure strength I'm weak because you know we can measure strength living with living with I'm weak I don't lift I lift weight same as people much lighter than me everybody my my weight leaves have heavy weight and then people that train with you often talk about how they're strong super strong yeah because I generate a lot of strength I can create I I put myself in the right angles so then I can be strong I'm not strong and the only person who I listen to saying that is uh computer one guy that I fought I fought him a few times and he's the only one that I heard saying about me this like no Roger's not strong he's not he's Technical and he's he can create strength but he's not strong he meant that as a compliment yeah I think so no I think he was honest because he I think he's the only one who could see that yes so I think that's a compliment so he's technically so you had an incredible matches with him yeah is there a Insight you have about how you went from a person who was not very good but had a a dream a confident dream a vision to somebody that was actually good was there something to the practice sessions were you getting reps on the specific techniques I'd never done anything special because I mean you know I'm in a gym training equally with everybody else so I've never did anything on the side different than anybody else so you know I was in the school training this is like the same way as everybody else wow in terms of schedule yes but what was can you reverse engineer what was going through your mind because there's so many different ways to actually mentally approach these same exact training sessions I'm gonna try to be okay so in some part is competitive yeah like at the core of it is I want to be better than these particular people you're going to keep beating me I'm gonna keep coming back at you and to do that I have to solve problems I have to figure out how to do stuff you catch me once I'm Gonna Keep On Coming trying to unlock get get caught on that at which point did you develop a game that was basically the white the famous white bug game of the very Basics the very fundamentals of Jiu Jitsu like saying I'm going to beat you there was never there was never a conscious decision to to try to you know to have a basic judicial first I think there's a big misconception there okay it's not you're right it's not basic it's not old school I think people they just don't see that it's extremely complex in a way that is is people they cannot copy I teach people you know I can teach you the cross color choke but the one thing that people didn't realize is not the move is you need to practice the move until you learn is the practice over and over again like it took me years when I say ears I'm like years after I was a black belt I was able to choke people out with a cross-color choke in the mouth effectively years after I got my black belt so he said that's something that you learned first day first week so I can't teach you it makes no difference you you know the theory but until you've applied it and you help you of course the more details you learn you know the the more tools you have to practice but it's still very complex because it's not about the move itself it's about how can you control the movement of the other person he's resisting you're blocking you cannot predict what he would do and he's doing a whole bunch of moves to to block you every single move you do a step of the way because it's a is is a progression of move from beginning to end till I apply the joke it's a progression of moving there's not one way to get that there's many ways because how many ways can you blocked you can put your arm in every single angle we have both arms you can Bridge so it's dealing with all that that is the yeah that is the complex complexity of the position but that goes for everything like every single move my strong moves I would say it took me years developing them years so it's and you're going to tell me that's basic so go try and do it what the other person is defending that's the thing because most of the things that I do have been doing them for years and I they know that I'm gonna do and I can still get it most the times that's the hardest is when they know what's coming and you can still do it and he said that the way you're able to do that you just have to do it right yeah what do you learn by doing all the steps along the way and just for people who don't know cross-color choke from the mount so Jiu Jitsu starts in a neutral place there's people on their feet and then you either then you get to the ground somehow and then there's the person on top and on bottom and then there's a guard with the legs between the two people and then you can get past the guard as you get past the guard and you uh into side control and so on you get more and more and more dominant positions and so Mount is considered to be one of the most dominant positions it's when you're past their legs sitting on top of their stomach putting pressure on them and cross collar choke is using their jacket to uh how would you explain that to children I put my both hands on your collars and when I squeeze you you press your neck so it blocks the venue you go to sleep so it's a you you choke people with your hands in the wrist you put them you know you grab the collar so you get the wrists around people's neck can you squeeze yeah the discovery of that is fascinating I mean because it's it's interesting it's like um you know you can imagine there's all kinds of ways to choke a human being what animals do with their like mouth right they put like their jaws around the and the fact that you can kind of discover this methodology of the right kind of positioning and then it becomes an art form like of why this why not this right or why not this or something like to figure out we practice that would come easy over time you figure out what works and what not on you and then and then more further and further details and subtleties start to emerge anyway on that process of beating of being able to beat some of the best people in the world and the thing they know is coming what is what's the difference between the white belt doing that and hydrogracy doing that the thing that's so hard to explain what do you think you're picking up is it some tiny tiny details of muscle movements it is it's many tiny details because is is the whole movement itself is the perception from beginning to end like every step of the movement it's important and precise so it's you know you miss once one detail on the way you collapse so I'm going to start with the black belt the black belt has no control over their whole movement he's thinking beginning and then so he goes straight to you know straight to your neck regardless he cannot read the other person if his you know if it's time to let go of the time to go for a neck should I be pushing here before I get my hand in you know is is this the right time to go deep or should I deal with this first before the second hand that's at the beginning says that that the white belt yeah at the very beginning of the journey yeah the white Bell to just think finish yeah and then as you get progressed you see that there's like this giant tree of possibilities that you're almost feeling your way down I mean would you be able to teach do you even know what you're doing by the details okay but it's hard to convert into words probably uh no it's possible then you don't know what you're doing okay uh so what is what what is the most important details they could say maybe positioning of the hand the gripping is it the positioning of your body the posture is there some interesting like insights It's a combination because first you have to put your body in a very strong position that you don't require your hands to hold them out so the choke is that that's first because I cannot use I cannot use my hands on the floor to stop you escaping yeah so if I had to my body has to handle that the way I position myself I have to do it in a way that don't require my hands for balance okay why is the model such a dominant position it doesn't make any sense right like you're just sitting on top of the stomach of a person it makes all sense if you think what's forget forget fighting forget Jiu Jitsu like you've never trained what's the one position the most dominant position you can get over another human being one the most for you which one it is like the most dominant position that you can get over another human being so if we were just because the way I think about it is putting myself in like a six seven eight year old self without knowing any martial arts and I had an older brother who would beat the shit out of me uh yeah it probably was Mount it what but well yes okay so we both didn't know but if you knew something it'd probably be back control if in the back control you're under the other person the thing being under is the most dominant position it can be over another person you mean like a back control if I'm on your back oh like that you can move you can roll I cannot stop you rolling yeah maybe you can even stand up how dominant is that yeah but if we're the same size both untrained it doesn't matter have you seen kids do they do that okay mount looks and feels like dominance when you're two eight-year-olds fighting okay I don't know I don't know why it feels that way it could be some animalistic thing maybe it is actual dominance I don't know but it feels like if you're on trained you can just buck your way out of it it feels unstable it feels unstable to hold mouth unless you know what you're doing right no well if you if you're multiple both of your hands on the floor yeah just your hands to think it's easier to take somebody off yeah maybe not to think it's easy to remove the hand and bring them out the hands on the floor I'm straight I'm leaning in yeah you're right it's hot I mean you don't need to know fighting to hold yourself down yeah but you're right when you take the arms off and balancing then it gets tricky because when you're trying to uh I think what happens I'm thinking back to eight-year-old because my my brother's five years older than me and he would do the usual like stop hitting yourself thing and you I think he'll be in mouth like hitting me with my own hands uh from at a place of Love of course I love them deeply and it was very formative and uh positive experience for me okay um I think yeah the weakness is when he takes well when the person who has your mouth takes their arms off to to do something but even if you keep your hands opened yeah when I'm falling yeah okay I'm not falling so I'm speaking about untrained people I feel like they get greedy they try to do stuff the other day I watched my nine-year-old daughter yeah well I'm in a friend's house there's a whole bunch of kids that they're playing and when I looked she's mounting a boy her age her size he cannot Escape wow she probably has seen no she trans she's been training for almost a year and a half okay which is not much I mean she's a nine-year-old daughter a girl over a boy has she seen footage of you maybe she picked up no but she appreciate she'd been training for a year and a half so she has an idea what Mount is but I mean it talks about skills I don't never taught her them out yeah she has you know she had lessons at the Academy like any other kid did she make him cry or no but he couldn't escape which which are the position would she be able to hold that boy you know in the back he would roll it out that's true like he couldn't come out from underneath her shoes in decades like there is no other most dominant position that you can pin the other person couldn't you argue from that perspective side control no no because I control you have to to hold the other person and it's you're not free you you cannot release them but inside control your hips are not on top of theirs so they can't Buck you off right can you if you're holding them a little bit and then you can hit them with one hand but his head is here you're gonna hurt him here by the time you're doing that but then he has his arms free and if you turn towards your legs then he's away from your arms you're not even has the perfect angle I mean it is a good position you can hit you can dominate but it's not the best position to be over the other person he can knee you in the head at the same time you punch him then there's a knee come into your head I love playing Devil's Advocate to hide Your Grace about two eight-year-olds fighting and you and you your head is closer to his hand yeah maybe he can give throw you a punch all right so would you choose to be inside control of a mouth getting in the head well for a person who in competition prefers neon belly over her mouth but that's my weakness that's my failure as a human being holding him out is is can be tricky it's very hard of course it's hard but what is easy control in neon Bell is easier but neon Bell is easy easier I'm not saying black belt level I'm saying well maybe even black belt these are for what to hold somebody to make them squirm and hurt to create openings with a big guy yeah you can you can't yeah he's gonna push it back and come up in the mouth he can't sit up not when he mounted him the thing is also about Mao is people on the bottom of mouth Panic more it's the most exposure you you have because the first arms are free you cannot touch him his head is too high there's nothing he can do his legs won't get you anywhere he might touch your lower back it's like nothing you do you you most expose being in the mouth already you hope inside control a thousand times the amount of me and having to look up for your fist come down yeah side control I heard you you cannot hurt me okay hold me but I'm hugging you if I hug you tight what can you do against me hold it it seems maybe it's just from uh and again I'm arguing just for the fun of it but um it seems like a more difficult skill to learn to apply a huge amount of pressure and weight from Mount you don't have some slight pressure and weight from mouth or not apply pressure but be heavy right you don't necessarily need to be heavy you don't no why do you as people say you feel extremely heavy if I'm putting if I'm being heavy I cannot attack yes I I have to choose I can be heavy just to penalize you know just to pin them take the energy out you know to make them suffer but the moment that I decide to attack I can only behave him if I'm sitting up straight that's when my all my weight can drops down if I'm high then I'm sitting on your chest and on your own solar plexus that's the worst position to be said added on the person because that's where he breathed so you're in a high mouth sitting up straight that's when you can I can be very heavy I can make people you know feel my weight and you know be very uncomfortable but I'm not in a position to attack the moment that I want to attack my body has to lean forward I have to approach the you know the neck of the arms the moment that I do that my weight comes off my hips it goes to my knees the way it is off you but at that point if you have now I'm attacking I'm no longer heavy on you but you want to be at that point to remove any of the defenses they have or some of the defenses by getting there now now I'm like either getting trying to get your call or bringing your elbow across to talk to your unlock so what are some interesting details along the way that are tough to get to figure out what were the big leaps for you from white belt to to the best in the world it's you're trying to attack the neck you know putting one hand in the collar you're priving yourself that hand to place it on the floor yeah so now you're vulnerable to get bridge to get rolled over because if your hands are free trying to roll you over you stopped the moment they put your hand in the person's collar now you have to be very careful with your body positioning very careful the distribution of the weight yeah and how you you know how high you sit you know how tall you you your upper body goes and then the biggest challenge comes as you try the second hand that's the you know for the for the choke that's the biggest challenge the second hand because you already have you you know you already don't have one hand now you you are trying the second hand and if one of my hand is in you you know as a uh defending yourself have two hands one hand is already on one side this this side is getting attacked you have two hands blocking that I have one hand there's no help for that hand I cannot remove anything that's the biggest challenge getting one hand getting past two and not getting rolled over but I also have to have two hands on bottom I have two hands and can also turn and do all kinds of stuff yeah and my whole mind and everything is focused on that second hand it's a big challenge it's hard very hard is there an art to getting the first hand into a place where you it's less of an art because it's easier I'll say most times I get my first hand in is when you you try some move you're trying to escape you're pushing I get with the first handing as an opportunity and it's gonna sit there for a while and now and I go as deep as I can so the first hand because the second hand is the hardest I have to compensate the first thing to be as deep as I can right if I cannot get the first hand in deep I won't try the second I need that first hand deep then I go for this and it's deep in it everything is like super like tight super tight the first hand has to be super tight otherwise the chance of failing is very big okay does the opponent usually feel like they're screwed at that point also no as you put in the first hand and the moment that I position myself just prior to attempt the second hand I think the way I my body is positioned the way I'm I'm collapsing with my weight and the field is like it's I'm in a this is terrible yeah how long did it take you to figure out how to reposition your weight once the first hand is in very quickly because door get reached out okay so that there's a good feedback loop yeah because one mistake you out like one off positioning you out but you still have to do that against the best people in the world yeah where is the way out for most people like if you were in Mount against pusheshire or some of the best defenses in the world uh the way out is to I mean obviously is to defend themselves and you know prevent the first hand to get deep and I'll say the best thing that they could do is try to change my positioning on the mount in a way that you know pushed me to a very low amount you know try to just to to to to change the way I'm dominating you not to be you know to get me off the high mount pretty much are you always is it as slow is it a fast thing to go from low to low a high mode slow very slow because I need to beat your arms because you're holding me down and the arms need to come out it's a slow it's a slow process okay and you just is there like a yeah you saw use my legs against your arms so it's my legs pushing your arms but how do you get them how do you get your legs into the elbows as long as this you know it has to come under the tip of your elbow because now the legs will start forcing your arms up so your legs are like spread out there no they're in your elbow cannot get inside my leg right because that because that means I'm in a very low amount and then I cannot attack because I cannot ignore that because the mode that I attack that will you will stop pushing my leg to push me out what's the secret to getting the second hand in there's two ways either you go four fingers inside which is the hardest because with the moment that your two hands are defending you'll be blocking the the you know the the way and I cannot clear and attack two hands against one so I go summon I go behind the ear yep so my my grip goes because for you to defend you need to get there yeah and when you get there you elevate your air will expose the arm lock put the thumb in and then there's the uh dreaded like the other person just waits for you to Loop the arm over how about that this will it's a once you get the thumb and it's over okay no but when I'm there it's if I get that it could be a bridging you know they try and I mean I'm not using their hand to post now your head is your head is very close to the floor when you've tried to Bridge and you know my forehead would touch the floor that would be used as a hand but it's not on the floor not necessarily okay because if it's on the floor my body's collapse over you yeah so there's no place for my hand for me to work on your neck so I need some space between us so I don't completely make it bob up and down yeah I try to keep a gap between us okay so that Pursuit that takes many many many many many years I don't know if you've seen Giro Dreams of Sushi the doing the simple thing that's not so simple but it kind of looks simple of the over and over and over and over and over and presumably getting much better and simple it becomes very simple but you're picking up details probably along the way there's wisdom along the way what is that is that um there's like lessons that you just kind of accumulate over time like one training sessions you'll see maybe um like the positioning of the thumb like this detailed positioning of the thumb or something like this and then you like okay if you like load that in that that would be very basic because there is not that many different ways maybe one two I just do one any other is not as strong because it's it's about getting a strong grip on Your Collar I mean the sun is it's the thumb goes inside you know is it the thumb in or or four fingers in base getting a strong grip on the call as long as they know this is just holding yeah and feeling strong so that's just two options so uh it's the dynamic stuff along the way that yeah and then some of that timing too it's timing are you also like making people like faking them out making them think about something else no not at that point that's not because I cannot fake anything else at that point because I'll have to change my positioning to you know maybe to fake an arm look then I have to move out from that so then I will lose that the control I have so what's the process towards Mastery if you were to convert that to something that generalizes Beyond jiu jitsu how can you get that good at a simple thing practice and what that simple the same exact thing over and over it's just a matter of how long it would take so all that's true that's true I mean like I said that's true look how long it took me people give up along the way there is um intricacies to that Journey towards Perfection there's a lot of people that do Jiu Jitsu for decades and don't get better no because they don't train the way they should they don't train to get better they train to get tough there's a big difference most people they train to get tough so they are tough you know like we were talking before they don't practice the weakness you want to be good at you want to be really good at jiu jitsu you have to practice your weakness not your strength you have to practice everything but you have to be equally strong in every position they all exactly the same you know you your guard top bottom side control top bottom Turtle half guard mount back I mean you pick take down it's and then you get into details of escaping triangle it's applying the you know triangle escaping arm lock difference scenarios of you know it's the one thing is defending the amlock when you you know you have your time your arms very close to your body the other thing is to defend the arms when your arm is you know almost getting and then when he got your arms so this so many things to practice that you need to repeat them over and over again until you confidence enough that when you get there you have a chance and you can do the same kind of thing for even the final stages of a cross joke from everything I mean of course like you don't practice skipping the unlock with a full arm straight because you know it's it's gone I mean you practice you know you practice keeping the arm lock when he takes your arm you have you know you have a chance of trying to escape but you don't practice you know okay take my arm when I say go Go I mean you got you know you pop the arm that is like you get injured doing that escaping the cross color choke it's I mean Escape not letting the person get there you can escape you can practice keeping triangles because you know it's like it's you you have a way better chance of skipping Triumph but then okay mount on me put both hands in my neck I mean it's over you know don't be there what's the best submission in Jiu-Jitsu a choke I would say for which position oh if if a billion dollars to start in a position like uh in a submission and you only get the billion if if you get the submission which one would you start choking them up Costco checking them not from the back no you have a better chancecaping from the back really yeah even with the hooks even with everything do you think some people disagree with you I don't care I have a better Escape I have a better chance skating from the back than if you mount on me put my hands on my neck so I've been that many you are facing yourself and I will give you a billion dollars to escape you you would uh you would pick from the back a thousand times over like really no compare you have like uh with hooks with like a triangle like that matter you can do whatever you want but like a body triangle okay okay a thousand times over so what no questions it's you the mount is a super controlling position it's not just because cross color choking the amount the moment they put both hands on my neck you know you have to your arms need to be very close to your body to attack so that means there's very little space between us so that means there's very little escape space for you to work on your escape and the moment that you cannot Bridge let's suppose I have you know the person has a good Mouse so he cannot Bridge him off what else you don't have space to try to work on your defense being in the back I have all the space around me to work on my difference in my arms I have the mobility to bring them anywhere so I because of that it gives you me a much better chance and yeah you cannot I can move my body you feel my you feel my back you you cannot pin me you know my I cannot take you off my back first I need to defend the choke but you have no control over my body so that means there's still a lot of movement that I can try to use to escape in the mount there's no movement I'm pinned down I cannot move and I have no space between us to escape well the argument against that this is great is that on the bottom of Mount I the uh I do have my hands between so you're saying they're pinned there's nothing between where I mean you could get them in theory you could somehow you could but there's no you can but then there's no space they'll be squeezed between our bodies if it's an incredible if it's an incredible amount no it does not Mount like how standing if I put both hands on your neck if I'm gonna go for the cross collar choke after I get my hands in the next step is to pull you close to me so it's this my arms needs to be closer again put there's a hands that could do something they can come in but this they are very limited space between us yes yes no I mean to push your body away only through standing not if your back is against the floor okay the argument against the mount is uh or the argument for back controls being the most dominant position is even though I have hands I can't really use them effectively as effect 9 the mount there's no space there's no space you can try I mean you can squeeze your hand in I mean there's there's still things that you could do but they're so limited so if you pulled the 100 best competitors of all time what do you think they would answer to that do you think most would agree with you I don't care please it will show me their skills the ability to see okay so the perfect mount versus the perfect back control there's no question okay there's no question for me I mean argue with me like show me because I'm not being stubborn because I'm being I've been scientific so explain it to me why the back it you would be harder it would be better to your position to finish them out if if you can explain it to me why I might change my mind I was trying to but uh I don't I don't have the cred I'm like a middle school a science student trying to talk to Einstein here okay besides you who do you think is the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time can you make the case for some of them Marcelo Russia liangelo I'll have to go with bushesha because look at the how many titles he has I mean he has by far more than Marcelo Marcelo stopped quietly londolo has eight but sure she's better than him what do you think makes procession so good he's a heavyweight that moves like a lightweight his removes very fast but he's very agile for his size so the uh the agility combined with aggression yeah so it's very hard to control him because he moves fast and he's 112 kilos more than 15 sometimes or 110 I'm not sure but he's about around that so 240 in in pounds so when you when you agile 200 to 240 pounds that makes it very hard to control you what about making the case for some others what about the little guys or about Marcelo if you were to make the case for him being the strongest what makes Marcelo good masal gas is extremely technical I mean I think he's he's one of my favorite judges of Fighters because in in a technical way I think he's probably one of the best because raw technique in a bunch of different positions for submissions he's he's not very powerful you know physically he's not very strong but he can make himself very strong and his technique is very very high level have you ever uh trained with him not fight him twice yeah he's more smaller than me it's what happened in those matches the first fight I topped him I think five minutes in which submission choke from the back color choke from the back and the second time I beat him by points but a very large I think 12 to actually uh just to continue uh I wonder if uh if John Donahoe would agree with you about Mountain back I can't wait to this is a bear versus lion conversation but I'm looking there's there's statistics about I'm not letting this go uh there's statistics about oh look at that Roger what do you know looking at Hydra Gracie's statistics for um most successful submissions choke from the back yeah is the most because people panic when I'm out ah they turn the back I choked them out that's one explanation uh but for people it is interesting that uh of course this doesn't capture but this captures a lot of your major matches and we should say that you've submitted most of your opponents so you rarely win on points usually wins submissions choke from back is most of them then cross joke from about arm bars a lot too so 18 from choke from back 12 cost joke 10 armbar uh five RNC rear naked this is for nogi okay so Ezekiel is very powerful I took I'll use it's a strong weapon yeah also from Mount for also from Up oh that's when you can't get the one hand in no because the Ezekiel most times I use against people is is that is the attack that as soon as I get to the Mount when they're trying to escape the open up and I get them it has to be at that initial timing so it's not a thing you use to like bother them in order to create either I get it right right away or I don't bother trying much because you need to keep one hand behind the head and that um you're naturally on that position as soon as you're Mount most of the times and the moment that you mount someone no one accepted they go mount it they're gonna expose to get out so hold in the head it gives you a better way way to dominate them initially you know to deal with that explosiveness on the big on the initial in the beginning and then but then we have to let go to try it you're very limited hold in the head in terms of goats uh shanji I feel like he doesn't get enough credit that he deserves he had an extremely dominant performance in competition what about solo and Sanji hibera what are your thoughts about what makes them so good yeah a bunch of tough matches with ashanji yeah and Solomon eight times yeah for eight times shown there I fought solo once what uh I think I'm bringing up a sore Point um oh did Sanji tap when you uh or did the time right out and that uh was the last time you guys face each other yeah 2008. that was incredible to watch uh also um I think you pull guard with one minute left working towards or attacking I mean it's probably very tough to get anything and uh for people who don't know time ran out you had uh something that looked like an arm block and uh shanji look like he may be tapping but it looked like he might be just celebrating which is mostly I'm not sure I'm not sure it was I'm not sure because I think he's I'm just just straight he's on time finish yeah so I'm not sure if it was tapping to you know to let go time time's up or because of the outside most likely the time was up yeah and also there's a thing where you start you realize there's only three two seconds left he used to kind of start celebrating you realize that hydra's not gonna be able to finish this armbar in the time left so you start celebrating no I think he topped to say the time the time was up anyway what do you think like the longevity especially is impressive with with uh with shanji how long I think he doesn't get credit as much as he deserves because he pushed his career very far and the last few years he was on his best so he's if you were to stop before you know you would people would remember him on his highest but he kind of pushed more than his Peak let's say how hard is it for you to walk away we'll talk about the journey into MMA as well but you basically especially with the second match against Patricia basically walked away on top um beating arguably the greatest competitor of all time um and just walking away it wasn't that hard to be honest because there was something that I was considering for a while because the last few years of my career let's say he was fighting MMA at the same time I was fighting Jiu Jitsu and it's very challenging to do both like I don't there's not another person who ever did that because the training is a confliction with the Y train everybody who start doing MMA start focusing MMA the Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they stopped training with Diggy everybody no exception was your Jiu Jitsu also getting worse no because I made sure I kept training with the ghee and I kept fighting at least the world championship once a year that was my goal I'm like I'm gonna go for MMA but I I love Jujitsu and I still want to fight the highest level so I kept fighting once a year for a few years it was a challenge especially because the two or three times when I competed other words it was right after I MMA fight ahead and then you know no you don't you you don't have the grips so if my grips it made a big difference oh my grace so I was weaker great price so I failed that so I knew it was like it's it's unnecessary risk because I'm not if I cannot be 100 so what am I doing this but I'm stubborn I love Jujitsu that's like I love if I introduced to I never loved MMA I've liked it but I think it for Grace I wouldn't have done it so the the thing you felt the most is uh the grips yeah yeah because you want a ghee World Championship without gripping no like just pretending it's no game match they get to grip you but you don't no so grips are essential of course I mean how can you choke someone like it's if your grips are weak you you your forearms will fatigue and then you will have no power and then you cannot do anything yeah you could still arm lock and you can so I meant more not for the submission but for the control of the game of it but you need to opportunity to grip to get there to get there and if it was a week but you also have grips and nogi can she use those grips no it's a thought experiment so like I'm trying to understand how essential I gotta get a new guy go fight with the git they Panic they Panic of course everyone panics a bear panics when they're in the water with a shark but that doesn't mean the bear can still win when it stops panicking and relaxes it's not possible that's another discussion can a bear beat a shark in the water um actually I need to put maybe a polar bear because they're pretty good at swimming okay I say not possible for the no gear guy to win but the Bears is it for the discussion what was to you the biggest difference between mixed martial arts and uh jiu jitsu what are some interesting differences some interesting insights even just about the grappling within both Sports so the biggest difference for me between MMA and Jiu-Jitsu is first is the speed like Jiu Jitsu you know like a 10 minutes match I can take my time there's no dangers there that forces me to move fast MMA you have to be 100 Sharp in fast from first second of the fight because punches are coming can get knocked out anytime one mistake you're out you just don't have that like it's I don't have to worry about quick submissions because it's all about the way my body is positioned you know my grips is easy to avoid it's easier to see it coming like it's like a quick submission a surprise it only works if you make a mistake if you're not correct positioning otherwise it's impossible it's extremely difficult MMA is not I mean one Split Second mistake and when the person comes you have to respond you have to to match your space I mean you can slow down but it's like you you're forced to respond so that much faster is that it's a lot more physical a lot more and you need to be physical much better conditioning faster it's explosiveness it's much harder is it possible in the MMA to calm things down unless if they change the rules yeah five minute rules now ah I see so like uh I just meant actually technically speaking is there ways to to take an opponent that's being exceptionally aggressive you can clinch clinch but then he takes her down he keeps moving something is hard to control that pace you can you don't if you play defense you you save more energy than if you try to beat aggressor and respond and even get into the coins is very difficult yeah you have no way to hold yourself there so that was the biggest challenge for me in MMA is the speed because I'm a very slow start fighter if you look at my matches I start very slow because if I go hard you know I fatigue faster so for me that was the hardest part of is to start fast what about on the ground is there something different more challenging in the ground being in the bottom yes the sponges yeah how fundamentally different is jiu-jitsu's punches on the ground that changes everything everything which which parts the the distance that you allow your opponent to be on you the techniques that you choose to apply you know you you have to but your body has to be aware of the punches and you know you are a lot more limited on your attacks like so you're you're known for your closed guards how does your closed guard have to adjust how does the positioning of your hands have to adjust when you're on the bottom of close guard so in the garden especially the close guard you you have to either keep the person very close to you or you have to kick him away that's in the God is either I'm hugging you or get away from any Jiu Jitsu you're allowed to have a middle yeah there's a lot of you can allow the person to be what about getting a a arm lock or a triangle submissions from the from the guard is is that fundamentally different because you don't have the middle game is much harder there's barely no open guard in MMA very little because the open guard there's a distance between you and him yeah there's a distance you how you you cannot control it's much harder to control that punch coming and I have to position myself a way to block that and it limited my attacks my options of attacks is there a reason correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you do open guard much in Jiu Jitsu and nogi is there a reason for that it's harder with the explosive uh explosion of person because it's you know when they're moving fast then you have to try to slow them down so you like guards that allow you to control the person and closed guard is the ultimate control oh no it's not ultimate control but close guy puts in a position that I'm attacking and you're defending you cannot attack me for my close guard we can argue that this might be one or two attacks but it's like very very very limited and depends who you're fighting against but I I hate the Coast Guard of being on top well against a good close guard is no one likes this is terrible it's horrible yeah it's one-sided yeah so you're in the garden is one-sided the person the brother has the advantage I can be completely relaxed in my closed guard and I cannot be completely relaxed you know the most annoying thing is is somebody who is both good and extremely confident with a close card because they have that smug energy about them they know how much unpleasant how much work it takes to pass this anyway um especially people with longer legs is there something you um wish you did differently in how you started trading at MMA in that trajectory and figuring out how to train how to get good like what have you learned about getting good at MMA from having done it if you were to start now for example I think I would have to dedicate it more I didn't dedicate enough uh both like literally time number of training sessions training yeah but also mental training wise physics yeah I think a lot more the physical part of it the strikes everything the strike from the beginning it's because I mean I love Jujutsu like it's I truly love the old aspects of it fighting training you know the practice the competition I don't have that for MMA so it's hard to to give your heart to it something that you don't have the passion to it like Jiu Jitsu you know I gave my heart to it like I did everything that I had to MMA I never I didn't do that so that's why it was I won't say it was wrong for me to to have to to do it because I don't regret doing I always you know looking back as a kid when I decided to you know to be to take Jiu Jitsu for life I I already knew that some point I would have to do MMA there's almost like that's the path of a Gracie you know you when you're ready you go to MMA so there was a like a Duty versus a love yeah that was that was not a choice that was like I have to that's just the the life I took he will lead that way are you proud of that stuff you know go against the natural love and towards more Duty I think I don't regret it because if I hadn't done it I would feel there was something missing yeah so I don't regret doing I would regret not doing the the tricky thing is the choice to go to MMA could have compromised your ability to win against Patricia and it didn't and it's um it's a fascinating case study it still doesn't make sense to me they after all those years you're able to come back and go against the best person in the world and beat him yeah and I had to because the first fight we had I had something stuck in my throat for a long time you think so you think about that oh yeah I'm like as soon as that first fight finished a headset I that got stuck in my throat that I already at that point I knew I'm gonna have to fight him again I knew I always knew because there's no choice I have to oh man all right well in terms of nogi who do you think is the best no-gi competitor of all time there's no question you know this Gordon is I mean it's I don't think it's right to say the best comparative of all time because he's still very young I think that's something that he came back in the end of when the person you don't want him to get lazy you know what I'm saying I mean but you cannot praise someone in the middle of his career you know so it's you cannot call him the best ever he's 26 or 27. so it's I mean he's he's great he's very good he's ahead of all of other competitors I think and I mean he's having an amazing career you know he's doing amazingly well so I mean when he's when he finished when he finally retired then you can I go like you know what there's wisdom in that it matters how you finish right of course it's very interesting I think that nogi is relatively new that Noki seen that was not there wasn't a scene before I think you started now on his generation you know his time because before like when I was competing you know he was just ADCC there's nothing else every two years and my first was only in the Emirates you know you should have you had to go there to compete so there was not even a scene there was like this one tournament that gives a lot of money to you know to competitors to Fighters and it brings fighters from other modalities you know to Marca Venice day or you know some wrestlers Greco-Roman you know they can compete against each other and they you know they create that settle rules try not to favor anyone so that was it so you cannot be called the greatest dogia of all time if you only have one torment every two years only in memories they have to be invited to but I think now you know the degree grew a lot now we have so many different tournaments now we have a scene you have people that only train nogi they're fully dedicated to nogi then you have supervised different tournaments so now it's it is now you know now it's professionally you can do just no dinner which before was unheard of it because you you have one or two Thomas if you cannot be called a no-gi Fighter fighting one so two one seven two years twice every two years and now there's an entire yeah systems that are optimized for Noki that could be fundamentally different like what do you think about the body lock like this passing with the body lock I I don't know if you get an understanding of it yeah that I think it's okay it's uh it's a popular way to uh what is it to maybe to apply to stay tight to stay tuned very close to your parents your your opponent so he can't push create distance he can push away but somehow it uh shuts down the hips as well yep makes it more difficult to yeah kind of trap your legs you'd see your back gets stuck on against the floor are you like scientifically curious about these new developments do you think do you do you have answers in your head to them most so body lock is one interesting one obviously foot locks is another and that'll mean just the full locks but the whole like control aspect of foot locks that's interesting and there's other there's other interesting stuff John is really into uh um the wrestling aspect but not wrestling wrestling but wrestling everywhere Jiu Jitsu at all levels of the plane um that's that's very interesting because you know obviously you just was not really been you know unlike like Freestyle Wrestling and so on has not been this like a systematic scientific rigorous exploration of wrestling it's like you're on your feet and you're on the ground not academic he tried to you know numbers mathematic everything well you kind of are too yeah oh I mean that I am because you have to understand what you're doing you know there's a everything there's a step by step like logistic like details every single move there's a reason for it you know there's things around that happens it's the more you know the better you are right the more knowledgeable compared to whatever so I think with the foot locks with the nogi like if you look back you know if you think of used to be seen as a really bad thing to attack the foot it wasn't seen as a good options of attack mainly what is a respectable gentleman don't attack the lake or what no because if you look back you know the Thomas the one they were created all the rules and everything else was to simulate a real fight with no punches we're now having a ghee I mean if you ask what is Jiu Jitsu like what are you trying what's the main goal of jiu jitsu to dominate your opponent what's the middle of fighting it's refining it's of course submission is the ultimate goal but the the you know before that the main goal is to dominate you like we're fighting I have to dominate you and then the submission comes and foot locks it's I don't require any domination on you I don't I I don't need to be in a dominant position to attack your foot and is this if I attack your foot you're still free to knock me out if your body goes down to my foot I can still come close to you or stand up and I'll punch you so it's not a good position to be in a real fight yeah to attacking the foot I mean how many times you've seen that going bad they're going bad in in MMA fight I mean of course you had you know some sort of success with the hookup it's no questions but how many times went wrong people who are knocked out attacking their foot so you can't say it's the best position to be it's it's okay to go but it's a very high risky position to go so that's why it's not in a real situation it's not seen as a good thing so when you translate that to jiu jitsu and attacking the foot is not seen as a good thing because when you reflect that to a real situation it's not going to go down well so he was always seen as a as an easy way out you know easy cut you're trying you're trying to do the easy path you can't pass my guard you can't dominate me and then you're trying to attack my foot that's why I was always seen as a you know it's not as a best a great submission of which win but the sad side effect of that is it was completely underdeveloped because of that of course so people never really developed that but now they do the torments the the fighting it got completely not completely but you got some it's not longer seen as you know as a simulation of the real thing now is uh now's a sport it's only seen as a sport so now it doesn't matter if you attack my foot you cannot punch me so why is it bad now to attack the foot this is not seen as a bad thing anymore and it now it got really developed I don't know that's another Bear versus Shark question but you know there is um in a street self-defense situation it's possible to imagine where foot locks would be effective for a highly but I guess if you invest 10 000 hours it's better to invest it in chokes yeah to dominate you if I'm you know if I were fighting it's way better for me to be on your side control on the mount where I can pin you'll be completely safe then to stay inside your legs trying to attack your foot but people would argue that there's a lot of very dominant controlling positions in the whole football game right it is but it can go bad very quickly yeah just no it I mean this there's some great ways to control someone that he cannot Escape but it can go bad very quickly that's the thing well even back control can go bad very quickly on the street so Mount I don't know is mount a really good position but then then there's no good position then there's no every every position there's a risk okay attacking the foot is a way higher risk than side control mount back as I'm saying the back is not the best way to pin someone unless you underneath me because I if you try to rotate I can sacrifice the back and just allow you push be in the mouth okay there you go would you prefer Mount or back Mount or they're flattened like uh still Mount sorry I gotta get you uh so yeah going back to Gordon what do you think makes that guy so good we were just a ADCC got to see him uh historically dominant performance he's dedication the way he trains and how much he trains and of course you have to add his mind his belief to really try to be good the best or you know I don't know what his goals are but I know he's trying to be better than his opponents so his belief are very strong his dedication he probably trains more than everybody else I mean I'm I haven't seen firsthand it but from what I hear interviews with him and everybody else training I you know the way everybody trains yeah you know trying to for my uh little knowledge I have I I'll bet he trains more than everybody else and most important how he trains and when I I kind of already knew but when I heard John podcast with you the other day John was explaining the preparation the training for the ADCC and that kind of gave me a very strong idea how they've been training all these years so you know when we said it's you have to work on your weakness so you have no weakness he trains a lot on his weakness which not everyone does that you know if you look although I'm not gonna name but you know or the main schools when like very strong competitors great comparatus so super tough people but super tough not great because they train they Spa very hard that makes them tough if you want to be good you have to work on your weakness because when you spaw like we're saying how many times you're gonna practice Escape in a bad position like a submission hold or a pinning position side control Mount or this very little the amount time you get to spend on those positions if you don't start there so that he's very smart the way he trains and part of that is also cerebral it's not just putting yourself in those positions but talking through different ideas like they they talk they like experiment it's very like at at first glance it's like philosophical almost is you're trying to create systems constantly trying to understand how this fits into this big picture and and then it goes back to what is Jiu Jitsu what is fighting he's fighting for dominance you know he's fighting for the ultimate dominance positions which is back him out there's no others and from that you finish so if you look back at his you know over the years thought you know of his past fights before he used to mainly focus in legs and over the past few years now he's mainly focusing in finishing from the mountain back but that's when he became really good uh so part of that is Mr John Donahue what do you think you've you've you've known John for a long time what makes that guy interesting uh special and and good what have you learned about Jiu Jitsu in life from John donoher he's super smart I mean eccentric and he leaves through Jiu Jitsu he's 24 7 thinking better ways to teach how to make his competitors better and that as a coach when you have that dedication as a coach that it makes the most difference of your athletes like which other big team you have that coach with that motivation all the other schools is either someone that competes that push the training like on drug overall it's not he's one of the competitors so he brings the hype in everyone else but he doesn't have the time he doesn't spend the time working individually I mean I'm sure he does but he's limited because he's also a competitor and you know looking most of the other big schools like you don't have that nowadays all the leaders the the main coaches for The Other big schools they have other things all the things in their lives they could not don't fully dedicate it to the athletes John does you know look at the interview he spends hours and hours a day studying how can await a system you know to make his athletes better look at the results I enjoy just sitting back and forth you can actually just get him you control him essentially by sending interesting videos and you could just see his mind he's gonna do research on that because I kept sending him videos of bears because he claimed that a lion would beat a bear because I'd love to get your take on this okay so the bear is much bigger much stronger but his take is that the Bears don't have experience of fighting to the death that's not part of the culture they're more scared in fact he keeps sending me footage of like even like a small mountain lion scaring a bear away because they're they don't want to fight uh so his idea is that it really matters your life experience how much you fight it's not necessarily the skill um like the dimensions the the characteristics you have uh but then I send him I'll show you people should um Google this it's bears fighting of any kind and it's it's pretty much the most epic thing ever here I'll show you like look at these guys the cardio though is interesting you know it's funny I was going to mention that because I was you know flipping to internet I came I came around that video look how big these guys are no they huge but she they don't buy each other you think it's just playing they're trying to no intimidating because they don't want to get hurt so they try to size each other up you know they they'll see the whole fighting his sizing each other up there's a lot of pushing and the the the fur is so thick so the cloth doesn't really damage much and they're using the tree so maybe they they yeah they're I mean there is bites but see there's very little so the whole time they trying to intimidate the other one like winning the fight by their size and mostly about like the way drunk college kids fight which is like some kind of display of dominance versus actual yeah they're not fighting to kill and bear or tiger you know they they fight to Finish unless the odd one runs away like one will die yeah the Lions attacks yeah I uh well look at the cardio look how bad the cardio is I wonder how uh my favorite part is when one of them just like stands behind a tree it says all right he's holding things let me catch my breath he sits down he's like all right you can't it's over it's like uh it's the equivalent in the in the in the forest tapping out all right all right you got me yeah look they're both like uh just shot and but see the thing is that I was trying to make an argument for is that we get this rare footage it's not rare I mean there's like hundreds of videos but it's not millions of videos because there's a huge number of bears and I was trying to say that there's some badass bear we don't know about because he just goes in there and just does work and we just don't know about it because he's like ever see the thing is if you kill a lot of other animals you probably have a territory that nobody's gonna mess with you so it's very hard to catch the uh the like the Hydra Gracie of bears you know he's just gonna be sitting there doing nothing so I don't know I don't know I feel like of course when you Corner him John will say that if you put a bear and a line in a cage the bear will win if it's like if it's the if if they're forced to be to the death but I don't know oh let me ask you another ridiculous thing before I ask you serious questions um so Joe Rogan thinks that a tie um is an effective way to attack somebody I don't know if I I can't believe I haven't in the time in Vegas I didn't talk to you about this I think it's not have you ever explored this it says so as the best choker in the world have you ever explored the use because like Jiu-Jitsu has the jacket but the tie to me is a pretty shitty uh way to choke somebody like intuitively it thinks like it's a good way but it can slide around it's it feels like if it feels like there's no uh there's no way to really pin you would need to right so you use it the way you use a belt yeah essentially yeah but then I would guess so yeah I don't I don't think it's and I think if it gives you it actually has the reverse effect which it gives you the the false sense of confidence that you can use it and instead it'll just distract you so you think is a stronger way than the call or just a strong way yeah yeah I don't see how maybe just like in a street fight scenario right like um but by the time you grab the tie the guy goes punch your nose yeah what what uh what George Saint Pierre thinks is the best use of the ties to actually like a um what do you call that so basically to all balance them which is an interesting point to like um yeah but you could use the jacket for the same kind of thing yeah I don't know I haven't really fully tested it it's a okay for that perspective of unbalancing of balancing the person it can be yeah because you you know you have control of the person's neck the color you know the jacket moves so for the purpose of off balance in the person I would agree with George see the thing is that's the thing about martial arts is you can say all kinds of bullshit but until you really test it in uh over a period of years the competition you won't really know I think like that's where my gut says um just how easily the time moves my gut says the collar there is something really powerful about the jacket there's like the way it sits I mean the fact that the arms trap it from rotating yeah like it's a weird piece of clothing it's a really dangerous piece of clothing that we put on ourselves yeah like and it's kind of cool that we've developed this whole martial arts system that allows you to use that to to do a lot of damage it's very interesting so when we're saying something that you develop over the years of practice over and over again going back to deficience of the amount of back by experience of attacking people they people always had a much higher chance of escaping from the back then from my mouth so it's I feel if if I mount you get both my hands on your neck you cannot Escape if my hands are deep it's over like that I don't remember anyone escaping but I do remember if my hands are deep on your collar or even the real naked choke is still a hassle like super clean you have some data on this is there some aspect to you to how your body is the characteristics of your body then that fits a particular set of techniques so if we just look at Jiu Jitsu broadly do you see most techniques being able to work for most people like uh what you're saying about Mount versus back control is this is it possible for a different body type to mount is not as effective uh yeah of course I'll say very big people make sure I'm out you don't have to give yourself as big not big I mean fat oh they should stay off them out why is that that's a card Mobility it's like it's I think that you know you don't see any you know like those few ways like 160 kilo like you know in pounds I don't know 270 pounds of a lot of fat it's you you need a bit of Mobility and that wouldn't you would play against you so great and even back that great back the same requires Mobility yeah okay so even though it doesn't look like you're moving very much when you're doing Mama that requires Mobility yeah because you have to reposition and wait redistributionally uh adjusting your your body all right the legend goes you got very good by training mostly with lower ranks uh what was your training like in that environment so when I first moved to London I was 20 years old I opened my school there and I had nobody to train with I had one guy that was teaching with me a black belt middleweight it was good and that's it brother was May humu to the same they said he moved to England the same time as I did but he was in Birmingham so we did got together you know maybe twice a week close you know when we were prepared for something if not then not very often as often as we could but like did I say not that often and I had just call about students there was no one high level there was no one world champion in any Bell to train then you need to create a scenario that simulates that can simulates you know like a realistic fighting so I think on that aspect you know when people said you know people ask why they have such a basic game I think that also influenced me sharpening up all my skills when I move there because you know when I'm when if you practice with people you know lower level than you you cannot there's nothing to to learn from them or you know you can learn things and practice with them but outside very complex scenes on them it is not the best so it's I sharpen up all my skills so I you know that when I really improved everything that I already knew to a higher level but how can you sharpen something if the resistance is much lower level than a purple belt okay makes it very hard for you to skip side control doesn't have to be a war Champion for black belt it's you know if it's one is holding you it can be very hard what about on the attack how do you how do you become literally by far the best person at the cross truck from Mount by training with purple belts it's sometimes football belts defense way better than black belts okay see a lot of people listening to that would be like that makes no sense haja Gracie how does that make any sense because like a lot of the black belts even world champion they get to the black belt they're really good enough what in what they do let's see in the guard you know on on top on the bottom position but the difference or not like very very few people high level have a very good difference because they don't practice yeah then that goes back to how you train you know you can be very tough very tough it will make you terrible defense because you're not going to practice your weakness so your weakness still gonna be terrible you can have the best God in the world impossible to pass the day people pass to God you do nothing like it's you your guard is high the highest level but your side control defense or not your mouth defense or not so some purple Bells they practice this you know the the amount way more than that black belt did so the naturally the difference is better so they they get to experience the defensive position much much more and especially training with you they get really good at defending yeah and then over and over again you attack them with the same thing over and over again and didn't know what's coming they will block they will develop a defense over that yeah way better than most other high-level blackboards so both put yourself into really bad positions with lower ranks and just keep attacking the same way over and over and over yeah and with that you were able to be at the top of the world at the World Championships yeah I mean can you give some like what was the preparation like to a world championship with lower ranks I mean um I did a lot of boxing a lot of conditioning no but the conditioning is but they won't seem to help me extremely living in England in London was training Judo at the Budokai in London that helped me massively because he he gave me the motivation to learn something new because it you know that by then at the Budokai you know the stand-up was I'm sure today it is too but by them was even higher than it is today like there was some very high level Judo guys training there and I mean the first time I went there my stand-up was terrible compared to theirs I mean was was bad but compared to them was terrible so I was getting through like a child and that motivated me to kept to keep coming back and and get better so that made my Jujitsu much stronger I became my base got better my top game improved my pressure game improved did uh this Neil Adams train uh Ray Stevens when he I've never met neurologist is that he's the voice of Judo I don't know if you watched the tournaments he's uh incredible yeah Frank Stevens is a you know Superman and silver medalists in the Olympics he won European he won a lot so he did some Judo training what's your favorite throw like uh if I would pick one so that made you better at Jujitsu as well yeah yeah okay and and back then like for the first I'll say maybe three years maybe four I went to Brazil for like two months before every major tournament yeah so I said you know I moved away from the school and I really focused I was really well prepared with my jewelry and everything else sharpen up my skus and then went going to Brazil to train with like really high level people so that way I would manage it to compete in the highest level what uh advice would you give to let's start with a complete beginner so um you know a bunch of people come up to me they still want to start doing Jiu Jitsu what advice would you give them try to absorb as much technique as you can and try to be as relaxed as you can don't you know don't desperately try to fight so hard like learn and move slow move slow and relax that's the hardest thing to do the hardest you know you know what I find with people it seems like it's hard to even know that you're not relaxed it's it's like the introspection they don't even know what it feels like to relax not even know they tense yeah right they're trying to relax you look how you see what what do you mean relax I'm relaxed exactly exactly you feel it and in terms of going slow they're like yeah where I'm going slow no you're you're not uh yeah there's there's a there's a grace and elegance of movement that you could probably pick up from a lot of other disciplines like for me I think that came from just learning piano piano at a young age this for um I think any Mobility thing to learn how to move efficiently you have to know how to relax it's just the fact that you can like the body can be tense so it could be relaxed just knowing that fact now imagine you showed the stints yeah play piano well no yeah everything has to be real life I guess some of that is mind too but just knowing that and being self-aware and you but see like even me um you know approaching a thing I'm not I don't know anything about being a beginner you're going to tense up no matter and like it actually takes a conscious effort to think to relax I mean that's massively that's why learning things as an adult is much harder than as a child like it's very hard and as an adult it's like to get to the highest level it's not possible because you will never relax for the way you should yeah relax in a way that you become like water but then you solidify in the right places yeah yeah is there advice you can give to an adult so like somebody that has a job like a hobbyist like how to progress I mean dude train this just need to train as much as you can no you know five seven days a week because you get gonna get injured I mean two three times a week to start is the best way to to you know to to to to to initiate your judicial journey and practice the same thing over and over again when they don't work it's just because you're not doing well not because you know you have to learn something else do you see some value in just picking a set of techniques that seem to seem to draw your heart in like for example I'll give you an example you'll get a yell at me but uh I never learned the close guard well it just never connected with me you could say it's body mechanics whatever it doesn't matter the point is it's just like my heart never connected with it uh you know the way I Justified it to myself is I felt like when you're bad you're using the close guard just like you could use the half guard to stall so I was really drawn to the butterfly guard as a beginner because I thought that I have or open guard in general uh there's I have no options to stall so I'm going to learn my thinking was let me do the guard that enforces me to learn and then I fell in love with the butterfly garden open guard and so on and I never I never really understood the close guard and the other thinking was do I really need to understand the closed guard because it's always by choice that I go there so I can avoid not I mean you can avoid anything you want I mean you don't have to do anything well in this life yeah it doesn't make you complete yes that means you want to be complete as a this is the question how valuable is it to be complete to get good depends how good you want to be okay let's go uh well there's several questions there yeah okay like to be the best in the world do you need to be complete of course the best in the world of course you have to be complete otherwise you somebody's gonna be better than you but what about like two so to understand to defend you have to be also good at the offense and in every single position otherwise you you have a weakness and someone can capitalizing that weakness okay what about to be like a hobbyist and you don't have to but can you or this is so bad I mean it's not bad I'm nothing is bad I mean if as a hobbyist you start late I mean this it doesn't matter how far you're gonna get as long as you enjoy it just train as much as you can if it's twice a week twice a week it is you you'll be limited how good you will be training twice a week of course then the guy that trains twice a day you know this is the more train the better you get but you have to select what you train that's what I'm asking so I don't know yes but like for how long like there was some point in your life that you might try something so if you like it noted at some point on your life that you might okay let me try close guard you might not like it now maybe in two three years from now well still don't like it I kept trying it listen because listen it's very difficult to get any respect and you just get it's hard to get to black belt and Beyond in Jiu Jitsu at a respectable place and not have a good close guard close guard is then don't do it it's not necessary I'm being a rebel no no it's not it's I'll say because it's not it's not a position that you want the pressure that if you don't know you'll be in trouble you're not going to be in trouble not to know the close guard you're just gonna go straight for open guard I mean that that's not a problem the main limitation is if you don't do a close guard a lot that you don't quite you don't get a full complete picture of understanding how to attack close guard when somebody puts you into a close guard when you're on top so it's nice to know both sides if it's just understand yeah but you can have a pretty good understanding of how to defend from the top and not having any bottom I mean some of it is also just like the length of legs and just the the geometry of your body uh Nick I'm sure Marcelo Garcia is a good close guard but I don't I've never seen that that's exactly that's the point in theory Theory you can imagine it but like for a hobbyist I think it's interesting to think of that like is it possible to is it possible to focus on a small set of techniques that help you to develop of course still into a good job yeah of course and still enjoying and still be most people Hobbies in the judicial World 99 let me put their competes even the people that compete one percent max and you have high level competitors have no clue how close God is okay thank you for me no I think you would say that most people don't have an Coast Guard is such a a such a difficult position to understand For Me Maybe One Day we're brainwash yeah good I I felt it's too easy to stall uh versus attack that that was my main concern is like I want to be forced in every way to um to always be attacking to always be moving to always be and it felt like if I got really good I've seen it happen with half guard too it's like when people get really good at half guard it just feels stully if you just look at this at the matches and so on it's you just slow things down to a thing that's not you don't get reps on learning you don't get action in interesting ways so that was my worry that I'll get old and fat and just sit in close guard all day holding on to the white belts trying to kill me because it's also I mean that's the other thing for hobbyists and for everyone is to like when you first start I think you have to relax in the face of the fact that you're just getting your ass kicked non-stop yeah that can also be really tough on the ego I think the probably the right way to see that is you're growing as a person you see that clearly when they are like in a bad position let's say side mount or mount like a beginner he will never relax from those positions the moment that you say go they like trying to push you out and explode there's no relaxation and work on the Defenders like no it's a out and go until I have zero to give until I'm exhausted my arms cannot move it's kind of fun to watch actually what's the role of drilling did you do you like drilling I do not like drilling but I'll tell you why I think fighting its mechanic right so it's it's very important to drill a move until you learn the mechanic of course it's important if someone want to teach you an arm lock you want to practice that movement until you learn the mechanic of it but the guy's not resisting so it's easy to apply it right so you apply as many times as you have to until you know the mechanic of the moves until you can apply the mechanics the moment that you know how to apply it there's no more pointing drilling now you have to practice now we have to practice with resistance of course you're not going to practice with the guy fully resisting the guys better than you because he's not going to give you a chance to practice that move but you have to practice with resistance so where does drilling comes on that is most of people you know they they flow drill and everything nothing whatever you do you condition in your body to do something is there you know you do you repeat the same move over over and over again your body's conditioning to apply that movement or the technique drilling is not realistic because the other person is not resisting you know the flow movement or whatever after you go beyond when you already know that the the mechanics the drilling with no resistance is not going to teach you anything because you will never know if how to apply the movement with resistance so it's pointless to carry on drilling after you learn the mechanics yeah see but you're making it sound easy to learn the mechanics I would argue you can drill as many times I'm not limiting how much you drill yes you drill as much as long as you had to I mean it doesn't matter how long the benefit of drilling and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate with you the benefit of drilling is that you can more efficiently get a higher number of reps in so what are you gonna gain with those reps understanding the mechanics of the movement and what I would like to argue is you don't necessarily need the resistance to deeply understand the mechanics of something now there's some moves like I bet you you could drill your way to an incredible mount like mile is a good example of that you don't really need a result I can imagine a world in which the resisting opponent is not essential for developing some of the very fine details of the mechanics which one I don't know any what you say amount yes why what are you gonna achieve by resist by drilling with no resistance after you learn the mechanics what I'm trying to tell you the learning the mechanics isn't a thing where you get a certificate and you're done you're going to learn the fine details of the way you redistribute your weight you're going to learn how to move your I don't understand like inside a dead body what yeah like everything you do is a slow process and timing you have to understand moving okay it's the guys resistant like he's not I'm not gonna grab you and apply the movement I need to grab you and feel when is the right time to do like that that it only comes when you with movement if you're not fully resistant how would I know you could infer through it it's like a with no movement with no resistance okay okay let's say you've been drilling for a week yeah five hours a day you should be an expert with the mechanics but now how are you going to carry on with really no resistance no you have exactly yes after that week drilling five times five hours a day the the arm lock you still have no clue how to apply the arm lock against a resistant opponent no clue zero yeah so you don't know the movement you know the mechanic which is you know it's like how long you have to drill and how that doesn't matter it's the various of the person you can do for a month after that month is over you should understand how the mechanic works you still have no clue how to apply the movement against a resistant opponent you will never ever know how until you apply with a fully resistant opponent yeah that's the the only way to know to to really learn the movement yes well put but the question is can you have a small percentage of time when you go against the resisting opponent to get the wisdom and the Insight of what it takes to perform that movement and you spend the large percentage of other time just practicing the mechanics of it so like uh do you need to as you get better and better at technique to basically drift away completely from Drilling and more into the the sparring I I'd like to I just you're like really no I don't like drilling I see I well yes I like drilling I would say uh but I just see it always bothered me in the Jiu Jitsu Community how a few people really saw the value of drawing I see no wrestling especially in the in the Russian style of wrestling like the value of drilling I don't necessarily mean that it's like a dead body or like a dummy or something like that but just getting the Reps in really focusing on the high amount of reps agreed in wrestling in Judo I agree that drilling is very important initial drill a thousand times each move yeah Judo is a really big one for that too it is because is is is the movement the the timing you know is the Precision of the movement yeah it has to be perfectly because this one movement then is you you learn about the timing of the movement when you're fighting but doing fighting you only need to know the time because your body movement is exactly the same when you drill that's really well put yeah the mechanics is much more important there yeah but it's completely different for jiu jitsu because let's say from Jujutsu like the arm lock for example we use that as an example let's see from the closed card even my closed card before I go for the arm lock I need to have set of grips let's see I have your call in your arm right and then you know when you're drilling I'm gonna grab your arm I'm gonna grab your collar and I'm going to drill my body until I can apply the unlock and finish yeah I can do that a thousand times okay now we're fighting we start with the grip the moment that I initiate the amlock attack you will defend the amlok will not work so it's not the one movement that will get me to attack the arm there's a there's a combination of other things that I need to do I need to feel about your weight you know I need to get you close to it there's so many other things involved that I need to fill that only comes with life life with the fully resistant opponent yeah so pretty quickly it has to be live yeah and then he comes how you practice how you train you're starting on that position and just saying let's go and and the moment that we disengage from that position we go back that's when you really learn because everything that you do wrong you're gonna go back there and you're gonna try again try again try again and the repetition it will teach you have a feeling of timing when to go if there's a you know there's other combinations which you always has uh to go with it uh by the way for the internet that's currently yelling at me for arguing with Hydra Gracie about drilling that that's called you know uh Playing devil's advocate to strengthen to explore ideas I'm not actually arguing okay I forgot to ask you um if you had to fight against the bear line gorilla or anaconda to the death um which one would you choose and would you be able to actually to win against any of them what beer a lion a tiger a tiger Anaconda oh a gorilla joke gorilla you can go gorilla I'll probably choose the Anaconda let's see that I mean you're not allowed to run away though so you're in a cage do you have to kill the Anaconda okay I said the other one look I think I have no chance against any other ones I think I have a tiny little hero against the Anaconda I just waited out you don't you don't think it's possible to be I just um it it feels like technique can do something against these animals but they have so much strength so much aggression you know that the real naked choke translating to Portuguese is killed the lion so ever since I was a kid I always thought that made me forget behind a lion the real naked choke which you know in Portuguese it says matalion so matalionis kill the lion so I always thought that that's the only way to kill a lion or to you know to fight him against Allah you go behind and put the real naked choke I think you put him to sleep or the name Mata Leone yeah is like kill the lime yeah someone came up with the name why somebody must have maybe someone should be going to fight with their life talk too much there you go I I honestly do you think also actually yeah you you understand controlling positions do you think like a animal like a gorilla or a lion would shake you off if you had back full you locked in well you say the one that will have the biggest chance of staying there is the lion because it's the thinner body yeah he's smaller than a tiger I'll guess I think tigers are bigger yes so so do you think they can shake you off though I think I'll have a bigger chance of staying against Alliance back than any other animal still answering the question do you think you have a chance if I start on the back I start full locked in full controls let's say it's a small enough line you can actually have a full oh I'll guess so I mean I I would like to believe so okay well like just like you said somebody must have been able to do it throughout your journey in Jiu Jitsu have there been low points because there have been points where you really doubted yourself no I never really doubted myself this low points in defeats those are the low points when I lost how did you deal with the feast I just went back to the gym next week and say I need to get better that every time I lost I'm like I need to get better because I need to choke them out I need to submit them because you know we buy points it's as a black belt I have very very little lost I would say I mean I don't like to sound like a crying baby but I'll say most most of those laws was very very controversial yeah it was not a dominant clear performance this has about referees and points and so on everything that was since I was very young I always fought against my opponent in the referee like it's if there was ever in my whole life since I was a kid those ever a doubt they you always go to my opponent always always that was just something that I had to do with my whole life what's the motivation behind what led to the fact that you win most your matches by submission or indominance like are you chasing because that's the only way to prove you better and I've never I never fought to win tournaments that was never my goal that was the consequence of me trying to be the best like I don't care how many titles I have I care about I need to beat all my opponents and not not win because win is not enough I have to submit them that's the only way to prove I'm the best to submit them if I win by advantage or a point that means I was better than them that day that does not mean I'm better than them if I take her down pass your guard Mountain submit you there's zero questions with the best like there's nothing you can say about it if I foot sweep you you put your butt on the floor again an advantage we're carrying a fighting in a win means nothing not even means I'm better than you and if that happened that would haunt you if this for me is not enough I wouldn't be happy what advice would you give to Young Folks who look at you was able to accomplish from a place where you're not very good to becoming the best in the world at a thing what advice would you give them to uh have a journey like that to have a journey where they could be successful in their career and their life to to such a high level determination is the most important thing you need to know where you're going together so you need to have a go which whatever that goal is like you need to set the goal for yourself so you know where you want to go and to have the determination to get there and be sure that you will fail many times like you cannot let your failures brings you down because you you will fail many times everybody does so you said you didn't look to external sources of uh belief you just believed in yourself is there something to that where um you have to try to like be your own source of belief Flame the fire within yourself was it was that something difficult to do like um my dad was just very natural for me I said you know you can surround yourself with great people that is extremely important don't surround yourself with failures because they will they're not going to push you to you know they don't know what it is how to get there I mean everybody knows but it's when you surround yourself with winners you know you know what it took them to get there used them as an example yeah there's a certain kind of Aura to people that just achieve great things and being around them but it's still it's hard to find people that especially at that early stage any any area here any error that's right yeah greatness has a certain I think it's almost humbling just to see okay any human like at least that's the lesson I learned almost any human can do could be great I mean one I've used Muhammad Ali as a great example look at his belief look at how much he believed himself before he was Muhammad Ali look at the you know determination he had the way the confidence he had fighting even on his loss they never changed him not when you fought Foreman George Foreman I not not one person in the world thought he was going to win that fight by himself he never doubted himself everybody else did he won over All Odds Against so it's I mean you do when you look at people like that you can you don't have to be a boxer to try to you know follow his example but see those are like epic giant battles but I feel like you fight the same kind of battle when you're young and your parents tell you that you know just with their whole energy that this is silly don't be silly don't don't be silly to chase it's harder it is harder but as a kid it's harder to deal with that because I mean to go against adult special parents telling you otherwise like them the amount of strength you need is uh is gigantic I don't even know how much strange you need because that that was not my case so I can understand what you have to go through with the with the force of your parents telling you you know otherwise but it's how much you want it will dictate how far you're going to go where you're gonna go so it's you know if you can break through that you'll get nowhere it's that simple and actually one of the really nice things the internet does that I will give advice to young people is that you can find even even if your parents are not a source of that your teachers your community you can find people on the internet who believe in you yeah it's kind of cool it's kind of cool how the internet opens the possibility of like a community of like 10 11 year olds like building shit I see this all the time engineering the in a I mean they're fueled by belief they want to um they want to be like they want to create the next trillion dollar company right there there's that fire in their eyes and not for the money obviously but to do something really impactful and I think that fire is extinguished Often by teachers and and uh parents because I think the logic that parents have and teachers they look at a kid and they don't on the surface level they don't see greatness right they just see kind of mediocrity and so to them it's like no right the world is more complicated than that in order to get great you have to like like they they somehow kind of always try to be reasonable with you and then so doing extinguish the flame it's weird I think most people afraid so to even try so you can call them cowards for not trying because you are a coward for not trying not putting yourself a risk right so I would say a big part of society are cowards for never trying never pursuing what they really want is so it's there is you know a a weight a pressure everyone most people a lot of people will say around you that because they were afraid to try they they don't incentivize people to do so because they want everybody to be like them because imagine if everybody around you suddenly I'm not afraid and everyone is trying and you look yourself in the mirror and say I was too scared I've never tried so you feel really bad about yourself so it's easier to have people around you that think exactly like you then otherwise so they reflect a lot on the kids it's you know it's Society almost like pressed them down to be like everybody else to have a normal life normal job it's you know don't take risk because you can lose it all I mean that's the worst thing you can tell everybody take all the risks lose it all a few times that's how you're going to build things especially when you're young yes you can recover much exactly what's what's the what's the point of not trying you should try and you should you will lose everything doesn't matter what's what's what what emerits to lose at everything it does matter it will teach you resilience you know try harder go after you know it's don't don't live a normal life because otherwise you I mean what we're here for yeah take big risks take a lot of them fail and failure a thousand times until you succeed and then you're gonna you'll be the most proud of yourself like is this this then it'll be Priceless it's that then we'll change the world it is true that most people are not necessarily cowards but have cowardice in them it's most people are just afraid to try you know and a lot of it comes from a place of love because um you know if you try and you fail you get hurt um and it hurts I mean it's not it's not a pleasant thing to fail I mean you feel terrible to think you know when I lost any time it was a good thing you know when taking when I was getting beat up at the gym over and over again was a good thing when I was getting there and getting smashed by all the good guys I think I liked it well I hate it but it's my resilience that you know make me carry on until I succeed I think I like to get tapped one of the most competitive persons you know I hate to lose bodies I accept I mean I just I just need to get better every single time I lost in the championship I hate you I've never screamed no one never saw me screaming shouting that you know I got robbed you know I should have won the referee yeah but you know screwed me over I mean it's okay it happened shit happens I need to get better because I don't want to be in that position ever again so when I fight if I'm better if I tapped him there's no question I don't need to wait for the referee to decide that that was points or no points if you know his interpretation that made me better because I I was even more determined to be better in my mind I have to tap everybody else winning is not enough it's just objectively speaking what you learn the most from is really wanting to succeed and then failing and doing that often that's the reality from a parent from a teacher perspective from anybody from people you love if they really want to do something help them do that thing if you think they're going to fail good help them do that faster so they fail faster they're going to learn the only way to succeed is failing there is no other way that's what people has to understand without failing there is no success since you've gotten a little softer a little more emotionally open What's the role of Love In The Human Condition Hydra Gracie probably the most important thing that's the basic of everything right it's I mean love brings the best of us it's if we had more love and compassion from from the other person I think would will be a more evolved species the world would be much better place than it is now did Fred's family help you along the way yeah a lot I always had a lot of love and help from many people that's why I succeeded I've never got here by myself I had a lot of people who loved me believed in me and helped me get to be here today well I'm glad they did I'm glad you're here today I'm a huge fan it was an honor to meet you as an honor to hang out with you in Vegas to hang out with you again today I just been a huge fan for a long time uh my pleasure man thank you for everything you're doing thank you for this conversation it was awesome thank you very much thanks for listening to this conversation with hajip Gracie to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Haji Gracie himself Jiu Jitsu is simple you just have to do it right thank you for listening and hope to see you next time\n"