Episode 144 - iPhone 8, X hands-on impressions

**The Power and Potential of Face Unlock: Enhancing Mobile Security and Augmenting Reality**

It's like when you go into the toilet and there's a sensor behind the toilet, checking out if you're finished or not. It's like having a convenient feature that takes care of some tasks for us without being self-conscious about it. This is what Face Unlock offers, a technology integrated into our iPhones that allows us to unlock our devices with just a glance at the screen. Unlike traditional fingerprint scanning methods, which require physical contact and can be less than hygienic, Face Unlock uses advanced machine learning algorithms to authenticate our identities.

This feature has become an accepted norm in public bathrooms across the world. We no longer have to worry about dealing with toilets that require us to manually flush or worry about being self-conscious about using a device in such situations. The fact that it's a machine and not a human observer sends a sense of security and calmness, knowing that our data is protected from unauthorized access.

Moreover, Face Unlock has its applications beyond just unlocking our devices. It also serves as a tool for taking selfies, particularly with the introduction of Portrait Mode on iPhones. This feature uses advanced camera software to create a depth map of the subject, allowing for more natural and realistic photographs. With the integration of Structure Sensor technology, developers can now tap into this API to unlock new possibilities in augmented reality (AR).

Snapchat has already begun exploring the potential of Face Unlock by incorporating it into their apps. The ability to apply filters and effects that are essentially "skinned" onto our faces has become a staple of social media platforms, particularly among young users. The sense of anonymity that comes with using these features has contributed to their popularity. However, with Face Unlock, this technology takes on a whole new level of sophistication. By harnessing the capabilities of Structure Sensor and ARKit, developers can create experiences that blur the lines between reality and virtual worlds.

This marks a significant shift in the way we interact with our devices and each other. No longer are we limited to 2D representations of graphics; we now have the ability to incorporate 3D models and real-time effects into our digital interactions. Games, for instance, can come alive on our screens, with characters that appear to move off the surface of the device.

Apple Insider writer Daniel Aaron will be exploring this new world of augmented reality further in his upcoming article on ARKit apps, specifically designed for the Visitor Center at Apple Park in California. Stay tuned for insights into what developers are creating using these cutting-edge technologies and how they're changing the way we interact with our devices and each other.

**Daniel Aaron's Next Project: The Visitor Center App**

If you have any questions or topics you'd like to discuss, feel free to reach out to Daniel at [Vmarks](mailto:vmarks@appleinsider.com) or tweet him at @DanielAaronn. Don't forget to leave a positive review on iTunes and follow us for more episodes of the Apple Insider podcast.

**Stay Tuned for More from Apple Insider**

We're always excited to hear from our readers, so don't hesitate to join the conversation on social media or send us an email with your thoughts and suggestions. Join us next week as we dive into another exciting topic in the world of tech and innovation.

"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to episode 138 of the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor marks and joining me as editor and chief Neil Hughes Victor how are you you know it's been a whirlwind of a week it really has um we've we've seen these devices launched we've seen a lot of announcements we've seen a lot of people have different concern concerns about them and trying to figure out which is the device for them uh and trying to understand how they're different how they're going to work and and really what's what's both price point and and features that people need right and one of the comments that I was reading about in our forums said you know that that it used to be simple it used to be that you had the four quadrant Matrix which everyone loves to refer to whenever talk about product line discussions and and that this is not that Simplicity kind of thing that that there there's an iPhone SE there's a 6S and a 6S plus there's the S and S plus there's the 8 and eight plus and then also there's the 10 so that's five different major categories each with their own storage divisions among them yeah this this is one of those things where people are complaining about it and I'm not really sure why uh because I think everything has a legitimate reason to exist on the market as it is and this is a clear strateg this is not just some some scattershot approach that apple is taking this is a clear strategy that they've been doing to push more in both directions lowend and highend we've talked about this many times keep Legacy products on the market or use Legacy Parts as they did uh with the new entry level iPad earlier this year to hit lower price points than they ever have so this time around iPhone SE drops at $350 uh you can get a iPhone 6S for $450 um you know they're they're at these $100 price increments going forward and you can see why people would want certain products so for example you want a smaller phone you get the iPhone se you want a bigger phone with a headphone jack you can get an iPhone 6s you only want 32 gigs of storage you don't need any more than that um you can get an iPhone 7 um and then you want the latest and greatest um that's available now you can get an iPhone 8 and then you really want what's coming next then you wait until November and get an iPhone 10 uh I think that there's a legitimate case for each product to exist uh and that's very important especially in a point where uh you know the thousand of the iPhone 10 is is kind of controversial in some circles I think having the phones available at so many prices including the low $350 price point for a really great phone that can do AR kit and everything else um is really really uh impressive I think that Apple's phone lineup is more robust and and uh more consumer friendly now than it ever has been and Apple's never been afraid to cannibalize themselves that was something that Tim Cook said way back in I want to say 2011 right none of these products you know the the thing that happened in 1996 and 97 when jobs came in and slashed the uh the the huge number of products that he did to arrive at the quadrant Matrix yeah was that there were a lot of products that they were working on that weren't making any money right here in this lineup all of these products are making money yeah it's it's hard for people to understand like they they try to equate the Mac a lot of times with the iPhone and they're just not the same apple is going to sell like 80 million iPhones in a single quarter this fall think about that number it would take like 12 years of 15 years of Max sales to reach that number you know like if you're comparing the iPhone a specific iPhone model to a specific Mac model you know it's not even close the lowest selling iPhone is still outperforming the Mac so um it's the it's in Apple's best interest to hit all those price points and address all those segments because there are users out there who want different who have different needs for these devices and the technology has gotten so good and the devices are so mature that there are a lot of users that aren't going to care about certain features or don't want certain things you know I had a friend reached out to me the other day and he said am I crazy for wanting the iPhone 8 more than the iPhone 10 and I said no you're not because a lot of people are going to want the home button they don't see the need for the edge to edge screen they don't want the the the cost of it and that was the genius stroke that Apple did in all this is by introducing these three new phones and keeping around the seven and keep around the 6s and keep around the se you know the the lineup is more robust than ever and and it's a good thing for consumers now was your friend talking about the 8 plus or the eight he didn't say I I I didn't ask but uh you know maybe I think that there's some people who just are are afraid of the loss of the home button um and I think that for that reason I delved in this on the forums with some of our readers the other day and we were talking about it some people were saying oh this will be the the iPhone 8 will be the last iPhone with a home button and I said there's no way there's no way because first of all uh OLED panels cost too much the edgo edge technology um costs too much apple can't replace the entire lineup with it and they're going to have to introduce new phones with home buttons and that's not even including the people who will prefer a home button and want to have a home button you have to look at the way that Apple did with uh the iPod in the 2000s um to really see how they addressed different markets and different needs for the product s um the iPhone certainly hasn't changed as much in terms of the form factor but in The Last 5 Years uh the iPhone has changed a lot we went from 3.5 in to 4 in then 4 in to 4.7 and 5.5 in and now we're at 5.8 in so you have these different form factors different sizes different different um designs that accomplish different goals now you said two things there that the see I think we're in a a longer transition to a series of devices that don't have the home button I I think that clearly it makes sense for the SE to live on and for it to be the affordable device that uses the affordable screen that has the home button yeah but you know on a longer timeline the future is a device that doesn't have a home button I I agree it just it's not a fast transition like the move to lightning was I think this is a a 2 to three kind of Trad transition I think it might even be longer than that it it could be but you know the there there's there's sort of a push pull here right Apple wants to make a device that's accessible to everyone at every price point because they want to capture as many of these customers as they can right at the same time and and it's not just you know we we often and our listeners often think of this in terms of the market that they're listening in if you're in the US market you think of in terms of the US market but apple is a worldwide company and different countries with different uh earning levels and spending capabilities and different carrier plans right all of these things have impacts so the SE is the appropriate phone that could probably be a runaway device in one market where in another uh it sells less right right so there's there's that Push Pull and the other Push Pull is when Apple knows that something is the future it wants to deliver that future to to everyone in a consistent interface in a consistent way of interacting with something that that trying to accommodate both ways of doing something means that they they divide themselves a little bit thinner MH that that moving everyone to a future where everything is face ID where everything is is uh using these gestures is their path eventually right it's just going to take time technology wise user Behavior wise wi acceptance wise right and where we're at right now in that is that they've migrated us all to a place where all the devices in their lineup have a secure element and have authentication through it correct top to bottom including the Mac so so we're sort of at the beginning to midst step of this transition I would say yeah I think we need to get you know Touch ID on the 12-in MacBook um whether or not they do it a touch bar there um and I think you know that's really the last key piece of that transition um you know barring they could I mean now now that we have face ID do they have to put a touch bar in place or can they simply load up an IR projector and an IR camera into the screen frame right alongside the eyesight camera well that was another uh discussion I had with somebody on the forums yesterday we were talking about they were saying that they were they could see face ID coming to the Mac next um and that was not something that I agreed with I I see it coming I mean if you look look at the trajectory of touch ID uh it came to the i iPad first uh it take it took a while for Touch ID to come to the Mac it just came in 2016 less than a year ago at this point so um I I would imagine especially when going back to talk about about how we were talking about sales um and and the iPhone is just so much bigger than the Mac the iPad is you know about three times the size of the Mac uh in terms of quarterly sales so it would make sense for to come to the iPad first not only because it shares similarities with the iPhone and design and that sort of thing uh but the implementation and stuff uh if you look at the forward facing camera array um on the Mac it's never been as as advanced as it is on iOS devices um so I you know there were rumors um earlier this year that Apple could as soon as 2018 introduce a complete redesign of the iPad um kind of suggesting that it might get the same edgo Edge OLED uh take as the iPhone 10 I don't uh personally think that'll happen for a number of reasons including the limitations on OLED and the pure size or the cost of a panel of that size cost right yeah I mean you think about like the max you can spend on an iPad right now is like I think like $1,100 $150 maybe on the 12in uh iPad Pro 13-inch iPad Pro with the LTE uh I mean you're looking at like an entry level cost with a panel that size of oil of like $1,500 and the question becomes who other than me an insane person would spend $1,500 on an edgo edge olded iPad with uh face ID but um you know I I I I don't think that necessarily that transition is going to come next year but I think that we get there eventually um and I think that like you said it'll it'll come to the Mac um it'll come to Apple's entire product lineup and I I think that you know the iPhone 10 is a view of what Apple sees the future of computing and Technology takes time in addition to user acceptance and everything else uh but you know we'll we'll eventually get to a point where uh yeah I think the home button will be gone at some point uh but I don't see it happening anytime soon I would say it would take longer than five years could be and and that would just be I mean first of all the at some point the 6s is going out of the product line right that's that's not going to be maintained and released again next year I mean the the the the the headphone jack might keep it around longer in the lineup than you think you're you're right and it could do that based on government and institutional sales right where where with we saw with the iPad 2 you have to keep the model around longer to support the contracts well not just the iPad 2 I mean don't forget it wasn't until last uh July I believe it was Apple was still selling a 13-inch MacBook Pro with spinning disc drive think about that right that thing that was a could be for institutional or government sales right well I mean for whatever ever it's for I mean there's still a market for legacy technology like that people are very resistant to change and if apple is going to hold around a Mac for that long I think they're going to keep around an iPhone for that long now whether it becomes an upgraded SE and they say if you want a headphone jack get this model or they keep keep around the success or maybe even give it you know a A10 processor next year to keep it kind of somewhat up to date or something I would not be surprised if uh they have a low-end 4.7 in model with a headphone jack uh for either emerging market Mar or government or education or whatever you want to call it well so when you have a government contract the reason why I keep saying that is this when you have a a government or an education contract the contract tends to specify that you have to be able to provide service parts for service for and the device itself for so many number of years whether that's three years or five years um that you have to provide and that the device has to be both serviceable with parts so that they can't simply say sorry we don't have those parts anymore it also means that if they replace it it has to be replaced with one that is equivalent in Form and Function so if you have an iPhone 6 and you get it replaced it has to be with one a device that has the same functionality including the headphone jack and will fit whatever case or docking accessory or sled that they may have for it and I think that critics that would see and hear us talk about this and say oh that shows that Apple made a mistake by ditching the home headphone jack no it doesn't no it just means that they sold you know so many number of of successes to governments and we know that they do that right there was the because that came out yeah yeah most most apparently with the San ber shooting where the phone belongs to the county and this is also evidence of Apple saying that its products from two three years ago are still good enough to sell you know you hear these critics who say oh you know I don't need to upgrade my iPhone every year it's why do we have to put out a new iPhone every year is it really necessary well here is Apple really standing by its products over the course of years and saying this is still something that we're willing to stand by and sell to new customers and we think that IT addresses a different market so my kids discuss this with me all the time I I have children that are fascinated by what the life cycle is of product support don't ask that's that's what I've done raising these kids but you know the it came up because my wife has an iPhone 5 and as we all know iPhone 5 is 32-bit and has gone unsupported for iOS 11 so is just now ended of life ined useful life let's say and in terms of product support and so they they want to know you know what's going to go end of life next what's going to be unsupported next how long was the iPhone 5 supported for and we got I want to say a good uh What four years out of that device is that right yeah yeah and you would be hard pressed to find any other device made by any other manufacturer in the mobile space that provides software updates for that length of time time and the good news is by these devices sticking around and as part of the lineup it means that support is going to be extended even further for these devices because you look at now uh you know the entry-level iPad coming out with the A9 chip and they're probably going to sell it for at least two years before they upgrade it and they'll probably support it for at least two years after that you know look at the life cycle of the iPad 2 but that's that's good news for other A9 devices like the exactly exactly it extends over to all these other devices you know if you have the it doesn't point to good things for my iPhone 6 with the A8 chip but you know no it does not the the A8 is being left behind now because of AR kit and stuff like that but yeah I mean you you look at these Legacy devices and they still work very well and many of them are being still updated and I think that that is going to continue to extend because it's not necessarily the the level of innovation has slowed but the capabilities have become so strong that even a device from 2 three years ago four years ago uh is still a pretty powerful and capable device absolutely now face ID we touched on briefly here uh we we've talked about it on the show in the past and when we had Mike Worley on Mike posited that financial institutions were really on board with Touch ID and he was he was not positive that they would be as on board with face ID you've had some concerns about face ID also so in terms of authentication and and uh privacy and and things like that so having all of that in mind now that we've seen it announced has Apple addressed your concerns I I think they've adequately addressed Mike's in terms of of Apple pay but have they addressed yours I I think so I I was not despite what people listening and people in the comments think you know my my contrarian uh take on it was just meant for the purposes of discussion uh it was never meant to I'm not I'm not an apple cheerleader or or anything like that you know we try to cover the company as objectively um as we can we we are an independent Source on Apple and so I think it's healthy to go into an announcement like that with some level of skepticism because it's the onus is on Apple to justify why they would get rid of a proven technology like touch ID you know I heard from some friends of mine and read some comments of course U people who just don't like the fact that you know their use cases uh for logging into their phone are not going to work as well with face Ed as they do Touch ID uh I was talking to a woman the other day the pocket right yeah I was talking to a woman the other day who was saying that she's in meetings a lot and she will discreetly under a table uh unlock her phone with her finger and then just kind of peek down on the table but she never really looks at the camera and so being in a position to have to hold it up to your face at the right angle and stuff would not be convenient for her to to discretly log into her phone in which case she could just enter her passcode um but what this woman really needs is an Apple Watch well yeah depending on what you're looking to do I mean I guess if you're checking your Instagram it might not be as as good on your watch but fair I mean there's going to be use cases like that no matter what and we knew that going into it you know if you're if you're skiing and wearing a ski mask yes you cannot log in with face ID but you know what you're also wearing gloves so you can't log in with Touch ID so boohoo too bad um there are going to be situations where Touch ID would work better than face ID I think that overall face ID is going to be more convenient than Touch ID and more reliable uh you know I always am trying to unlock my phone when I'm leaving the gym and my hands are sweaty and then it doesn't work and then I get ENT my passcode and because I have a complex passcode it takes a while and it's like that's a that's a pain that annoys me and so I think for the key with security is it has to be convenient enough and good enough this is not some Fort Knox level of security this is consumer level stuff and I think that for the vast majority of people who use an iPhone they're going to prefer face ID over Touch ID and you and I have talked about this before there's even a unnecessary learning curve with Touch ID with people who press the home button and they and you got to break it through their head it's like don't press the home button just lay your finger on it just lay your finger on it and you know they even have when you do the setup Apple has to say no don't press the home button and they have to disable the functionality of the home button while you set it up to teach people how to do that that learning curve is gone with face ID it makes it easier of course now you have a learning curve of how to return to the home screen so that one step forward one step back in some respect and and and I want to say the the multitasking screen is the interesting one where you you start swiping up and then pause right that's that's the one that seemed a little awkward to me yeah apple has done some stuff to address it you know the the bar that you have to slide up uh is always going to be there um at the bottom of the screen mhm and uh they've also brought a Mac like feature over for multitasking where you can swipe left and right um and it'll quick switch between full screen apps on there um I think that they they did a pretty good job of it I'm not too concerned about the ditching of the home button um and I'm not too concerned about face ID but I think a lot of people will be um and that's why the aone exists now Senator Al Franken has has sent a message to Tim Cook asking him to address concerns about face ID's impact on consumer privacy and security yeah Franken on the Senate Judiciary Committee on privacy technology and law and he had a number of questions about the implementation of face ID particularly the how the information is created how its data structure is handled and what assurances are being given about protection of user data yeah I mean I don't want to get too political here I'll just say that Al Franken is doing his job and I don't have a problem with him questioning any new technology as a politician I wouldn't want him to just blindly trust a company I realize that people listening to this are Apple Fans and they'll go oh it has a secure enclave and blah blah blah blah blah but he is a US senator an elected official whose job it is is to ensure the uh privacy and safety of his constituents and citizens of the United States and so it's logical for him to want to get some answers on that and just because somebody asks questions doesn't mean that they're not going to be satisfied by the answers I don't think that anybody needs to read into this too much Al Franken did the exact same thing when Touch ID came out and he's done it with every other new technology that's been announced whenever Amazon has a new Echo out whenever um Google uh launches a new phone with new capabilities um he always puts out a press release and and we we get a copy of it and he asks these companies to explain their technology and to uh explain how they are protecting user privacy and I think it's a good thing that somebody like him is out there and keeping an eye on companies regardless of who they are well and that's exactly the reaction that he wants you to have it also makes him uh a good opportunity to send home a constituent letter talking about how Grady's doing on following up on these kinds of things well well that's politics yeah yeah the the part that I wanted to get to was that he he did ask Tim Cook how Apple will respond to law enforcement requests to access face print data or the face ID system itself which which of course was a big debate last year now what we do know is that in iOS 11 if you press the um the side button five times that it uh disables Touch ID or face ID yeah requiring the passcode to be entered yeah and have you tried that out Neil I I mean I I haven't I nobody's tried to rob me lately so well that you know of that I know of I just so it's it's nice to have I don't see myself you know when when I press the when I press that button five times it shows the slide to power off medical it the emergency SOS and cancel buttons and if I just say cancel at that moment and try and press the home to unlock touch ID is disabled it requires the uh the passcode at that point yeah yeah it's a nice it's one of those things you hope you never have to use like the medical emergency thing and all that but uh it's not like it hurts anybody by including it so yeah absolutely now one of the other things that we we published a quick story on is that the cost of Apple Care Plus is gone up right uh so the cost of Apple Care Plus was $129 it is now $149 for the iPhone 6s plus the 7 plus and the 8 plus um and for the iPhone 10 Apple Care Plus will now cost $199 am I wrong in presuming that it looks like these costs are tied to the screen size it certainly does look like it and that would make sense I think the screen is the most expensive component on these devices so and the uh the non-warranted screen prepars for the six and the SE the smaller size screens have gone to 129 up from 99 mhm the 6s and 7 have gone up from uh from 20 to 149 I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this no they're up $20 more rather I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this but I've never broken an iPhone screen and I've never paid for Apple Care so in the event that I do break one of my iPhone screens in the in the future um the 130 plus a year or per phone at least that I have saved uh will probably I'll come out ahead in the end I think yeah I have I have paid for Apple Care on a number of phones and I'm I'm contemplating doing it again I have always thought about doing it and and in many cases gone for it because even if I don't crack the screen there's something very nice about in the second year of of use of the device because I don't change phones every year being able to walk in and say I have Apple Care Plus uh my battery life is reduced because I'm in the second year of using the device uh could you please take a look at it and they they hand me a fresh device without any questions yeah that that is nice I did deal with some haggling at the Apple Store a couple months ago because my iPhone SE was giving me problems and then finally after I continued to have problems they agreed to take the phone apart to see if there was any damage internally and I guess their machine that was taking the phone apart somehow ripped the uh uh the battery cable and trying to remove the battery so they just ended up giving me a new phone anyhow right and I've never had to do any of that sort of haggling or hoping that that something would cause that to work I just walk in and say I purchased Apple Care Plus help me out and they do yeah yeah they were like doing Diagnostics and they're saying oh your your battery looks fine from our tests and it's like well you're not using it and seeing that it just randomly drops from 70% to 20% so right and and so one of the things that they do is that they have Diagnostics that they can pull out of the lightning cable when they connect they show me all that and they show that the battery is it's not just whether or not the battery is working properly at its Mo maximum capacity it's is the battery degrading over time within our expectations yeah they can actually pull up a chart that shows your use over the last you know seven days or whatever and it shows spikes and and drops and power and stuff right but you know we know that batteries age over time and have less capacity over time and over overcharge cycles and they can say well the battery is at this point in its life cycle we think that it should be about there if it's about where we think it should be then that's still normal my my lack of Need For Apple Care is why I've never used the iPhone upgrade program um but I always tell people if you are buying Apple Care then you should just do the upgrade program because it's just an interest free loan over two years you know it's not like you're paying anything extra but if you're not getting Apple Care then it may not be the best deal because that's $130 sacked on so yes well now it's $150 $150 tacked on there you go there you are um so so we we do this extensively right we talked through all the rumors leading up to this phone so help me out here who was right and who was wrong because we've tried to give weight to these along the way and say you know we think the ones that come from this analyst tend to be more correct we think the ones that come from this Source are questionable but we're telling them about you telling you about them anyway so so help me out can we evaluate and say and score these a little bit yeah you know the the every year the discussion of the rumors builds a little more and and people get a little more critical of certain sources and we've talked a lot on this podcast about how Ming quo is everybody's kind of love him or hate him analyst um and I have repeatedly said that the guy gets more right than anybody else and I stand by that and uh you know this year was a little different because of the iOS 11 GM leak that took place last week uh before the Apple event um we basically knew every thing um it broke on a Friday night and I was working until 3:00 in the morning covering all that stuff but prior to that uh most of the stuff that we knew about the iPhone 10 and iPhone 8 was uh leaked by Ming quo now that is not to say the guy has a perfect track record he does not far far from it um he got a few key things wrong so you know we wrote a story kind of running through all the rumors and of course it focused on Ming quo and the reason it focused on him is because he reported the most stuff and he said uh the biggest miss that he had I think was uh saying that the iPhone 10 would launch alongside the iPhone 8 and by the way it takes a lot of concentration for me to not say iPhone x when I read it I even though I said iPhone you you and everyone else I I never said OS X I always said OS 10 but for some reason iPhone 10 doesn't seem doesn't read as well anyhow uh I yeah he said it was going to launch alongside the iPhone 8 uh on September 22nd and it is not it's launching much later it's launching in November he also said it was going to come in three colors there were leaked uh gold Shades that ended up not panning out uh that was probably something circling around the supply chain that Apple decided not to do um he did nail the screen size way before anybody else I think it was March of 2016 he said it was going to be a 5.8 inch screen but he did have this weird diversion where for a while he was saying that the screen was going to have a dedicated function area that was a separate OLED panel not accessible to apps he was completely wrong on that and all of the people that draw mockups drew that as sort of a dock exactly as we saw on the iPad we don't have yeah and he uh also uh kind of waffled on whether or not the iPhone 10 would have Touch ID he was saying that Apple was going to have it in there and then he said they were trying to but it wasn't working out and there were technical challenges so I mean he did get some stuff wrong um in a big way I the the my that I really found the most funny was he said just a couple weeks ago really uh that the Apple Watch series 3 with cellular may not support voice calls at launch and his Logic for that was that a lot of carriers don't do voiceover LTE and so therefore wouldn't it wouldn't make sense to have it on the on the watch uh and then Apple of course at this week's event did a voice call demo with a woman doing standup paddle boarding in California so not just any random woman this was a woman who was on the Apple watch team right so uh obviously way wrong on that prediction as well but uh if you go down the list uh like I said the 5.8 in OLED um he was the first to report on that uh when rumors of the edgo edge iPhone 10 first started leaking people were thinking that it was going to supplant the iPhone plus model he was the first to say that they would actually be two separate models he was right on that uh he predicted the ,000 starting price back in February of this year um he was the one that said that the Dual lens camera would remain exclusive to the iPhone 8 plus this year and the 4.7in model uh would still have a single lens he was the first one to say that all the phones would have glass backs he was the first one to say that all the phones coming out this year would support wireless charging he was the first one to say that they would have fast charging via the lightning Port if you got the USBC to lightning cable um he also reported the day of the event that Apple did not would not be selling its own wireless chargers at the launch of the devices this year and that it would uh and that they would not launch until next year um so he by far got the most right now was was he perfect no uh but he had a better battering average than pretty much everybody else out there despite his misses and he took a lot more swings than everybody else too so uh you know people in the comments will say oh he's overrated I could have guessed this stuff you're telling me that you would have guessed a 5.8 inch LED screen back in March of of 2016 and then stood by it for the next year and a half or known that all the phones were going to get wireless charging when it was thinking that that was just you know the conventional wisdom was that maybe they would put it in the iPhone 10 you know the guy got most of it right um outside of that you know Apple itself leaked a ton of stuff the iOS GM uh iOS 11 GM that came out and the developers Steven trotton Smith and Gil Herme I'm pronouncing his name wrong I'm sure Rambo GM G gam Rambo um those guys work their butts off to get uh um uh all that information that came out within the last week even before that with the homepod leak um the Japanese site Mac otakara um had some pretty good Scoops that nobody else had uh they predicted the later iPhone launch they said that both the black and white models would have a black bezel on the front um Bloomberg and Mark Gman there had some decent Scoops but all of them were like later than everybody else so you know they were they would say oh yeah um it's going to have a stainless steel frame with the glass front and back and it's like well mingi already reported that like six months earlier or um you know face ID is going to replace Touch ID but that was after the rumors had already started saying that uh the biggest things that they had at Bloomberg were software related um they explained that there wouldn't be a virtual home button that there would be a new gesture to return to the home screen um and also that Apple would not be hiding the notch at the top of the screen and and those were good Scoops that came with the last few weeks so Bloomberg was pretty reliable even though that they weren't first and I didn't really want to pick on anybody else but I know that uh John grber of Daring Fireball had made a few predictions this year here um that were completely off uh he he thought that the iPhone 10 would be called iPhone x that wasn't any sort of inside information but that was his speculation he was completely wrong um then he did have a source that told him the Apple Watch series 3 would have a all new form factor and aside from that ugly ugly ugly ugly Red Dot on the crown the watch looks exactly the same so he was I get a sense that you don't like the Red Dot of the LT version I I don't understand why they put that on there I don't know why it exists I mean I guess if you're Petty enough that you really want people to know that you have an LTE version of the watch that's fine but it's like it's on every model it's on the stainless steel one it's on the ceramic one and it's like who wants this dot but hold on there is a huge problem es both in the ordering of devices especially from a retailer other than Apple or buying secondhand knowing what products you have and what stops you from putting a red sticker on your Apple watch first Generation Well you you should be able to tell the difference between a red sticker and the one that Apple's put on in manufacturing I think it's I think it's uglier in sin I can I cannot believe that they did that look I trying to explain the difference between a series zero or a first version of the Apple watch and a series 1 is hard enough right especially when they both look the same the same is true of of you know you you're trying to buy an Apple Watch and you trying figure out is I'm I buying the series one or the series 2 and you have to look at the model number to determine it having something anything visually that differentiates it becomes helpful I understand that that's not the one you would have chosen but it's so so difficult and and it's all right years ago I placed an order for an iPod touch and I was ordering the third generation iPod Touch because I had a need for the the different processor that was inside it to be able to run applications and I ended up with three second generation iPad touches because each time I ordered a third generation I got shipped a second gen because no one could tell the difference and the same thing is true of the watch it's really hard to figure out which version you have when they all look identical I get it I get the problem I I get that you don't like the Red Dot but there's something reassuring to be a about being able to tell very easily which one you're looking at it is unsightly now I run into the same problem because trying to determine am I looking at the series 3 with GPS or am I looking at a series 2 to is going to be just as difficult yeah but it's it's a problem well there is a company that reached out to me a couple weeks ago that I kept on my radar I'm going to write an article about this this week so keep your eye out for it if it isn't already live by the time people listen to this um a company called watch dots that's been around since the first uh Apple watch came out and they sell stickers that match the colors of the bands that Apple sells that you stick onto the digital crown and to the side button and for 10 bucks you get these little these little decals and I plan on getting a black dot to put over the stupid ugly Red Dot on this watch because I I I i' love everything about the Apple Watch series 3 the Apple Watch series 3 is amazing I love the fact that it works with apple music and it's going to work with third party apps and give you this connectivity I don't like the fact that it cost $10 a month with carriers but um yeah everything about it is great why why did they put this red dot on there it's so ugly I I can't begin to tell you why they chose the Red Dot it's so bad when that first leaked as part of the Iowa Johnny when Johnny I comes out of his cave every six months and sees his shadow he makes a change to a product and this was the product you got I when the iOS 11 GM leaked last week um and it showed that red dot I was just trying to think I'm like why would they do this and I was thinking like maybe maybe it's actually like a like a light up thing and like that's how you know you have a notification but that you're not you wouldn't be able to look at the digital Crown cuz on the side I was like I was trying to like come up with a reason for it because it was like there's no way they couldn't do there's no way and not only is it there it's on every Model H okay your frustration is frustration that people have felt from design changes from Apple in years past there were people that were very frustrated at the iOS 7 design changes and the move away from the iOS 6 kind of uh SC morphic design yeah there are people that are are very frustrated about the idea of the loss of the headphone back there are all kinds of changes and your frustration mirrors those exactly because you you don't see a net positive benefit no it's just I am excited to check out the new bands though I will be getting a series 3 watch um as I've said on here many times I love the Apple watch and I love the idea of being able to leave my phone behind when I go for a run um you know Siri being faster and and working anywhere and and uh being able to get text messages and phone calls and all that and be connected uh are all um cherries on top and I'm I'm very very excited about uh when I go to the gym when I go for a run or just when I go out on the weekends just sometimes leaving my phone at home that's going to be it's going to feel very freeing and that's exciting to me yeah well I got 99 problems but a red dot on my watch ain't one you like the Red Dot it doesn't offend me all right well there there are far more other things that I can choose to be offended about than a red dot really but I am looking forward to your exclusive review of a black sticker that you're going to put over I will I will so we have we have never before on Apple Insider reviewed a sticker to my knowledge no no we have not godspeed all right so tell me about the loss of reachability as a function yeah this was something that um I did a little kind of PSA article on um that kind of caught on on Twitter and stuff people talking about it uh generated some discussion in the comments and I found it pretty interesting um I really like the iPhone 10 I like a lot about it but the one thing that drives me nuts about the iPhone 10 is because now that the home button is gone and we swipe up from the bottom of the screen to return to the home screen and multitask you can no longer swipe up from the bottom of the screen to Access Control Center and it's even more frustrating now that we have IOS 11 which makes control center more powerful and customizable than ever and so for me uh on my handy dandy iPhone SE I swipe up from the bottom of the screen to do a lot of things including access the flashlight adjust the volume adjust the brightness do music controls quickly go into do not distur mode before I start recording the podcast put on airplane mode when I get on a flight put on low power motive I'm going out for the day now an iOS 11 that it's on there uh I use I have a bunch of homekit accessories I use use control center to turn off lights and on in my home on home kit all the time and so that's awesome when you can just swipe up quickly from the bottom of the screen with one hand the iPhone 10 is designed for two-handed use and this is evidence by the fact that because there's no home button uh and because Apple decided not to program a way to do it there is no longer reachability so to give you a little history lesson and why this is important Apple's first iPhone obviously was 3.5 in they expanded to 4 in and with the iPhone 5 which your wife still uses and when the iPhone 5 came out they had to kind of justify the size especially when phones that were coming out at the time for a variety of reasons including the fact that LTE radios consumed too much power so they had to get more battery in there Android phones were on much much much uh uh bigger screens and so Apple decided not to go as big and so they put out a commercial explaining why and Jeff Daniels narrated and it shows the thumb of a user ing from all four corners of an iPhone 4 and saying you know it's it just makes sense it's the size of the average person's hand it just works and so because that was such a part of the marketing campaign for the five and later the 5S when they went with the larger screens for the six Apple had to appease those customers that were a fan of the one-handed use and kind of justify their their jump to the bigger screen so they included a feature on the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus and has been on every phone since then called reachability and reachability is basically rather than pressing the home button you simply rest your thumb on it twice quickly in succession and what it does is it brings down the screen to half size so that you can reach up and touch for example like a back button that might be in the top left corner or something half height right yeah half height and uh it's so you double press double tap I I don't know how you would put it double you you double tap you aren't pressing the button in you're just double tapping the surface of it right yeah double tap the home button without pressing and then you can do one touch on the screen and it will then automatically expand back to full size and so that is you know you're using your phone one-handed for whatever reason and you for example you're browsing the App Store and you want to hit the back button in the top left and you can't reach it with one hand so you double tap on the home button you press it and then it goes back to full screen and you're good well because there's no home button on the iPhone 10 there is no reachability anymore and Apple has not the I mean unless this changes before the phone Ships Come November they have not programmed any way to do this and if you look at all the videos uh showing the device being used and accessing these functions um uh they show it being used two-handed so it's clearly the phone was designed to be used as a two-handed phone so to bring all that full circle uh because control center is no longer swiped from the bottom of the screen on the iPhone 10 it's actually in the upper right quadrant uh on the right side of of the notch um so if you want to access notification center you swipe down from the left side of the Notch and if you want to access control center you swipe down from the right side of the Notch and so this is going to be a big change to how you use your phone because for me I instinctively pick up my phone swipe up hit the flashlight or swipe up hit hit uh uh homekit controls and it's all there on on the control center from the bottom of the screen now maybe you pick up your phone and choke up your handle a little bit higher and then swipe down from the top or whatever I mean this is you know total first world problem this is the equivalent of the nuisance that it was learning how to use natural scrolling is I think that what happens now is um you used to uh currently you pick up your phone and and you're choking your hand more toward the bottom of the phone right so that you can access the thumb the home button because that's the most important thing for you to be able to access now maybe with the iPhone 10 you pick it up but your hand is more toward the middle of it because you don't need to press the bottom of it to unlock you do need to swipe from the bottom so it'll be interesting to see how that works I wonder if maybe um on the lock screen at least Apple doesn't require you to swipe from the very bottom and allows you to swipe from more towards the middle just to quickly pick up your phone and access I I don't know I'm I'm just speculating but um I could see where the Habit becomes picking up your phone your thumb is more toward the middle of the phone so now you can swipe down from the top to Access Control Center and so I didn't mean for this story to come across as a oh I hate big phones kind of thing more so just a Apple's design philosophy has changed in a significant way with the iPhone 10 Apple has always gone out of their way to to cater to one-handed use and even in iOS 11 they've introduced a new one-handed keyboard for making it easier to type but this is an example of where the iPhone 10 design philosophy has changed and they are no longer making an attempt to cater to those one-handed users and it'll be interesting to see if they do a course correction on that or if things stay the way they are my you I did a very informal uh anecdotal survey and and what I found was that among the the small number of people asked it's a totally totally invalid survey for any purpose of of kind acal numbers right but I suspect Apple has real numbers is is that more people that I asked triggered reachability accidentally than intentionally right I somebody in the comments from that standpoint yeah so hey look at that someone else said that too yeah and I'm not just reporting my own opinion I did really ask about 10 people but I I know totally statistically invalid survey if that's true and more people accidentally triggered it than intentionally then it makes sense to move away from doesn't it perhaps um you know I C 10 people against 85 million is is really a big unknown but and plenty of people in the comments were saying that they use reachability all the time and I was seeing people complain um uh and I mentioned this in my story I have not personally tested it but um I guess it used to be an iOS 10 and earlier with reachability you could use it to invoke the notification center but with iOS 11 they've made it so that you cannot swipe down to invoke notification Center when using reachability so uh that's another change away from one-handed use which is which is somewhat interesting uh whether that gets addressed in the final release of iOS 11 or in a further in an update down the road and was maybe an oversight I don't know but there were certainly a lot of people that waited in the comments saying that they use reachability all the time uh when I was using an iPhone uh 6s I did not use reachability um I just uh would uh kind of extend my thumb a little further and I could I could make that reach um but it's important to remember cuz somebody was saying uh somebody tweeted us and people were saying in the comments oh well it's the iPhone 10 is about the same size as the iPhone 7 and iPhone 8 uh you know it's the basically the same form factor well you don't reach up and touch the bezel and the the speaker area on an iPhone 8 or an iPhone 7 you don't reach that far you only reach as far as the screen goes yes it's the same size form factor generally speaking but the phone screen is much bigger it goes from from 4.7 in to 5.8 in it's bigger than the than the plus screen size so you're going to have to reach that much further to get to the edge of the screen to do those gestures absolutely it's it's going to be a change that's all we can really say is that there's definitely going to be a change here and people who use this new device are going to have to get accustomed to it so are you getting one of the new phones Victor um I would like one of the new phones I am very probably not getting one of the new phones mhm uh uh first of all because my my uh expense budget from the cabal that run at the dark headquarters of Apple Insider doesn't necessarily permit it and you know I just I just can't file that much on an expense report I'm sure you know how that works um the other reason is is because I am interested in seeing what comes after iPhone 10 m and I say that because my observation is that when Apple introduced is a new technology a flagship technology that the first year it comes out it's wonderful it's great it's well executed but the second year they refine it and and a good example of that would be the iPhone 5S that came with Touch ID but did not have the secure element and so it didn't do support Apple pay and that the year after we got the iPhone 6 which did so well this I can't conceive of what they might improve upon but clearly they know what to improve upon right they've already got they've already been working on the road map for what comes after iPhone 10 for 6 months for sure yeah the rumors say that we're going to get a plus-sized iPhone 10 next year so something more of the form factor of the iPhone 8 plus but with a you know 6.6 inch display or something right so and and that makes good sense because the iPhone 10 even though it has the longer screen surface area it uh if you rotate it into landscape mode you don't have the same useful height as you do from a plus-sized device right so partly I'm I'm I don't have the budget partly I'm waiting for what comes next and I'm I'm also interested in what the naming conventions are going to be next because we have eight and 10 so what what do you what do you name the devices next uh good question I don't know you know am I am I going to wait around for an iPhone 9 when we've already had a 10 that's been released I I don't know may maybe it's like OS 10 and it just keeps the name for 15 years it it could it very well could um but then that it's so weird because you have the iPhone 8 so does that increment or are they just all iPhone 10s branding of subnames on products has never been a strong suit for Apple especially when well there there have been examples of this in the past right the iPad 3 the the fat iPad was the new iPad mhm when it was announced which of course was always going to be a difficult device because when the IP it was iPad with retina display and then that later that year was the iPad 4 which was the next generation iPad with retina display I believe yes but but Apple officially did Market the iPad 3 as a new iPad for a while well no because iPad 3 was the first one with the r display so I think they called it iPad with r a display at any rate yeah I agree with you in whole naming has been a difficult one iPad Air then iPad Air 2 but never got an iPad Air 3 moved onto the iPad Pro now we just have a regular iPad that's a size of the first Air iPad air but it's not it's like oh geez it's it's difficult isn't it it really is and and clearly it's a challenge for them because they have as much trouble with it as we do yeah and I you know I I think that they don't think that far ahead uh I think that they're focused more on making the product and and the naming conventions are kind of you can see where the Market's going what's going to make you stand out what's going to whatever you know certainly uh I think that the fact that Samsung is up to the number eight on their phones May contribute to why we have iPhone 8 and iPhone 10 this year um I think that that I'm sure Apple's internal you know marketing research teams can look into that stuff and see how much it matters with consumers it doesn't matter to me but I I'm sure there's a lot of people that that that fall for those little tricks and so it's good business sense to follow along and do those kind of things definitely now I want to talk about something that I know is close to your heart yes charging now you have run a number of articles on the the website and also talked here on the podcast about charging speeds and how to charge an iPad Pro for example at a faster charge rate you have to buy a separate brick and a separate cable to be able to do it tell me about quick charging the iPhone 8 and the iPhone 10 yeah the uh the sins of the father uh have been passed on to the the from the iPad to the iPhone now I want to say that sigh was palpable I could really tell the the pain that you feel there you know I I sympathize with apple um in some respects on this because they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place um they don't want to put out new lightning cables and power bricks uh that run on Old USB full-size ports because they have the new USBC connector that they're pushing on the Mac however they don't want to ship USBC connectors with the iPhone because then people that have Legacy USB port computers which is the vast majority of people buying iPhones wouldn't be able to plug it into their computer and they don't want to ship it with multiple cables in the box so what do you do there is no good answer um but unfortunately for Apple they you know their choice is a bad one no matter what I I don't know what they would do to fix it but the iPhone 8 and I iPhone 10 will both ship with basically the same 5 wat power adapter and with a regular usba a fullsize USB port to lightning connector the phones will support usb3 Quick Charge capabilities which will give you 50% juice in your iPhone in 30 minutes which is awesome the problem with that is you have to go and buy a $20 or $30 USBC to lightning cable and you have to buy a USB C power brick with the appropriate wattage so if you were buy official Apple products the cheapest one you can get is the 29 watt brick for the 12-in MacBook and so now you're looking at another $70 tacked onto your $1,000 phone just to get the Quick Charge capability now the fact that they do this with the iPhone 8 I understand that's their consumer focused product whatever but with the iPhone 10 which is geared toward premium users and high-end users and even more so with the iPad Pro which is designed as a computer replacement I find this to be highly unacceptable and I think it I don't think that Apple's doing it as a cheap skate move but it comes across as a cheap skate move it comes across as nickel and Diamond that you have to spend another $70 to get fast charge capabilities which is something that most people want you know this is something where um I I think that most consumers say if you ask them what's the number one problem with their iPhone they're going to say battery life I want the battery to be to last longer one way of addressing that since we can't magically invent better batteries is to make it charge more quickly you know you have it charged in the car while you're driving you charge it your desk while you're working you come home from the gym and take a shower and pop it on there and get a get a quick charge on it uh having it juice up more quickly is is a good thing um and I think it should ship in the box with that now whether a better solution would be to make a full-size USB 3 uh to lightning cable with a more powerful power brick in in the Box I don't know but uh whatever they're doing right now is not not smart okay wireless charging wireless charging is interesting um I didn't think we got a tip before uh Apple's event which ended up being 100% right from an anonymous source saying that Apple wasn't going to ship their charger until 2018 um and uh in the interim Belin and mphi were going to step up to the plate with their own accessories um that that was that was accurate um Apple's own charging solution is going to be interesting as well I think it's going to have a mix of like NFC in there to allow it cu the the chi uh uh open standard that they're using um only allows one device to charge at a time uh Apple is going to kind of address that on their air power charging pad with some NFC technology the devices are going to talk to one another it's only going to work with newer devices um so um I I think that wireless charging is good it's not something I'm personally excited in about uh the thing I find more exciting about wireless charging is cu I use a mofy battery case with my phone and it occupies the lightning port and especially if you have an iPhone 7 that uh you want to use wired headphones with it and now the lightning Port is occupied by a battery case I'm excited by the prospect of Snap-on Wireless uh battery cases that leave the lightning Port open so that you can plug in your headphones and use them right so you want a a battery case that charges by Chi and also charges the phone by Chi well I don't care the head I I I don't care if it charges by Chi I don't know that I would I don't know that I would be interested in buying a wireless charging pad but I'm saying just connecting it to the phone without occupying the lightning port and being able to recharge the phone without covering that Port would be very nice what I can tell you is that wireless charging is incredibly convenient that when I've used it I have liked it a lot it's it's uh really something brilliant now there's there's sort of an intermediate step here where we've seen this tried to transition for years uh there have been charging ports that have been built into tables at staru bucks for for trial Starbucks there have been movements from Ikea where Ikea has made furniture that allows you to build the charging puck for wireless charging directly into the the surface of the furniture yeah and I think what happens is that that becomes more of a thing that we see in the market once this standard really takes hold yeah I see that in the meantime there's there are products like the Balon boost up and uh mof's Force charge product Char rather charge Force and and those charging bases don't cost very much in the scheme of things to get a a charge Force wireless charging base from Mofi is 40 bucks yeah this is something very cool uh I I can't tell you how great it is you have to experience it for yourself but the idea that you don't have to physically manipulate the cable into the charge port is good you just put it down on the base and leave it yeah that's cool I I don't see myself laying a charging mat on my desk I'm kind of limited for desk space as it is and a dock uh is a little more convenient in terms of taking less real estate good news there are docks that have back rests with ch built into them yeah that's cool I can see myself using something like that I it's very you know instead of having to aim it and get it right on the dock on the lightning connector sticking up from a dock just sitting it in the dock and having it charge yeah I don't you still get the the vertical orientation you like and it's charging I don't see myself buying like new furniture or anything like that um it is funny that over time right people replace furniture and when you replace Furniture over time will you get one that has it built in sure why not my parents bought a Toyota Avalon a couple years ago that has a wireless charging thing in it and uh obviously it doesn't it didn't work with previous iPhones but I had checked anyhow to see if one would fit on there because my mom has an iPhone 7 plus and the phone's too big to even fit on the wireless charging pad so even if they got an iPhone 8 it would just wouldn't work well but so here here's the other thing right Toyota has been very late to the game in terms of Apple carplay they've they've held off and resisted doing it right but in in the future when you have a car that comes equipped with wireless carplay and a wireless charging mat in the armrest or in the console then you have the perfect storm because you just put your phone in because you need a place for your phone to sit anyway or you leave it in your pocket or your purse whatever but you can just sit it there and have it charge and it will wirelessly do carplay at that same time that is a perfect storm yeah no I think that's a great use case for it absolutely cool well I'd like to draw this segment to a close is there anything you want to use as a parting thought um I'm still not sure which phone I'm I'm going to get I I would definitely get an iPhone 8 4.7 in if it had the dual camera I've been very envious of the dual camera on the iPhone 7 plus for last year using my SE so I'm not interested in the full size of the of the iPhone 8 plus so I'm I'm considering the iPhone 10 um I want to get it um the the the combination of the price and and the giant screen and some other quirks um have me debating it I but I think that you know if you're not somebody insane like me who likes smaller phones I think this is a great phone lineup um I don't have a problem with it I I just I like uh the I value my uh pocket space I suppose so uh I will probably end up getting a iPhone 10 but I don't see the iPhone 8 lineup really appealing to me because you want that dual camera and you want to air on the smaller size of device right if they if they put the dual camera on the iph 8 this year with the home button and all that I I would have no qualms with the missing headphone jack or anything else I I would totally get the 4.7 in phone because I want to have that 2x Zoom right so what I think happens here is is if it's as you say right if if next year we get the plus-sized device of the iPhone 10 then we end up in a world where the iPhone 10 has the dual camera the smaller device has the dual camera as well as the larger device right that's that's where it's going Neil So you you should get the iPhone 10 you should spend that money I that probably what I'm going to end up doing um if I can get one we'll see how many they can manufacture at launch there you go all right well this has been this segment of the app and sold podcast uh Neil nickol and dime Hughes where can we find you on the internet you can read me on Apple Insider and I'm on Twitter at thisis Neil NE all right we'll be right back with another segment with Daniel Aon diler Dan thanks for coming back yeah thanks for having me so you after the announcement on Tuesday got to go into the Hands-On area can you tell me a little bit about what it was like because my understanding is that when you come down the stairs and then go into the theater Hands-On area is sort of blocked off by a wall and then when you come out the wall has somehow retracted yeah you don't see uh when when you enter so when you enter the SE theater you have that it's been portrayed in a lot of pictures it's just a huge cylinder of glass with a lid on top of it uh so when you walk in there is a couple elevators that that do the twisting turning motion as they come down but the main way to get down there is there's two stairways that Circle uh either side of the outside of the the ring so there's these two grand stairways that both lead down from the top down to the same place it's the opening of the theater and as you walk down these stairways it looks like just sort of a hallway that's opening out into the theater that's still below you so you come out at the top of the theater and then you walk down into it so on the way in you don't get the sense that there's something else there it looks like there could be a room it's like this big round room but as cook was finishing the comments he said you know check out our great Hands-On theater and it was actually the the thing was moving so it's like this huge uh wall of kind of stainless steel looking panels that retracts around like a theater of its own like this huge periphery of wall that that goes around it's like a curtain it's like a round curtain wall but it looks like a solid wall when when you first see it and then it retracts and all of a sudden you come out of the theater and there's this huge round room that's you know High ceilings and have these dramatic stairways on either side going up uh so it's a very beautiful location however it is a little bit Apple's Hands-On areas after their presentations are always beautiful I mean they're always like very nicely done however it's really difficult to see anything because first of all there's crowds of people second of all they have like handful of products on display you know they have a limited number of people that can it's a large number of people fighting over access to a small number of products yeah and there's a lot of fighting because there's are people from all over the world there's all different kinds of cultures represented in terms of like how you whether you wait in line or whether you just push in front of people the etiquette for how you fight over them is uh a little bit different than you might expect is that what you're talking yeah and and these are journalists so they're used to like fighting to get a mic in the story and get a camera in so you kind of have to do the same thing um but yeah there's it it feels like there's not quite enough tables and not quite enough people and then at the same time there's another issue is that you have this beautiful uh spot they have round tables everything about it is is incredibly beautiful however the lighting is very harsh lights from the ceiling pointing down so if you are handling one of these devices that's you know Chrome and beautiful glass reflective let's say yes and of course the screen is also going to be reflective from the watch to the phone uh it's just covered in Dots and a lot of the pictures that we took it looks like there's some kind of virus on these products because they're just covered in spots so it is is difficult to take pictures of things how's the color cast when you're doing that is it is it also blown out or is it uh is it that was less of an a problem I mean they're they're pretty neutral bright lighting but just the fact that it's so there's so much Sheen it's difficult to get Reflections um so interesting you think of that right I mean the iPhone is the the most popular camera in the world right now or at least mobile phone photography is you you'd think that they would uh have have tested what does an iPhone taking a picture result in in this room you'd think they also uh probably use really highend equipment I mean I took pictures with my phone primarily um I was using a a gimbal Mount to take pictures of the environment and in the room itself but um a lot of it is handheld and you're trying to hold a device and take pictures of it it's a little harder than it seems it should be juggling two things of course it could be worse you could be juggling a DSLR right right I've done that before and that's why I go with the phone because it's just so much simpler but a lot a lot of people there have you know um very highend professional gear cameras and they have their own lighting that they bring and they have multiple people holding things and talking to a person whose job is just to recite what they've already been told the whole sort of environment reminded me of in Japan you know there's Lookout Towers you go to Tokyo and there's actually a couple different ones where you go out and you can see out over the vast expanse of Tokyo and when you try to take pictures of it the the way that the glass is positioned in the lighting it's just kind of impossible to take good pictures why are the towers that they designed impossible to get a picture out of that's a well because the people doing the architecture aren't the people making the photos well perhaps uh they're redoing the the Space Needle in Seattle and are they really I think that's yeah it's a privately owned structure and they're going to close it down and and take out all the walls actually haven't I've been there several times to the ground and seen it but I haven't paid the premium to go to the top I I have I have eaten in the restaurant at the top yeah a long time ago I eat in the restaurant it's it's kind of in fact when I when I try to remember my experiences in Space Needle it reminds me of f term in Germany in Berlin which is also kind of the same thing if if it is quite diffult to make walls of glass that you can take pictures through without any sort of um Sheen or reflection or anything but yeah the funny thing about the Space Needle was I was driving around in Seattle and I was driving through these neighborhoods that looked you know kind of I I would say they weren't run down per se but they certainly weren't newly freshened up and all of a sudden they're over the rooftop of this this junky looking building there's the Space Needle And it hadn't occurred to me at all that that the World's Fair where the World's Fair had taken place is is now basically this kind of rundown well aging neighborhood kind of thing there's there's an area right next to it that feels like 1940s Americana mhm that that's really cute and then there's really fancy areas around Queen Anne and then between that and downtown they're just it's completely being redeveloped yeah there was a lot of just sort of open stuff but they're yeah they're building that huge you know Big Dig project of U undergrounding the freeway and yeah so all that is just massively going on the other view of San of Seattle is a tower that is where actually I believe it's a tower it's like Columbia Center or something like that it's one of the tallest buildings in Seattle it's then I believe that's where apple is building a new or or they took over a lease of several floors of it I don't know exactly what they're doing there but probably trying to recruit people from Amazon and Microsoft can't imagine but it has a tremendous View and if you go to Seattle that's you should probably go up to that building and see the view from there because it's better than the space mind never mind Seattle let's go back to cerino for a minute okay okay handling the new devices you know clear I'm not going to ask you a whole lot about the Apple watch clearly the Apple watch is an Apple Watch Right it hasn't really changed form factor in any appreciable way I think it's it's not worthy that the form factor has not changed um the stainless steel watch feels about the same I I couldn't really feel a difference between it and the the series zero that I have the original one um and the ceramic new versions I mean it's a new color uh the addition is it it may be actually a little bit heavier but it felt about the same to me when I was handling them yeah so they've put all this new technology in but it's kind of the same thing far factor I I think what we really want to talk about are iPhone 8 and 8 plus and iPhone 10 pick one go ahead and start well let's start with iPhone 8 and 8 plus um when you look at them on first glance you think oh this isn't really this is just a refresh of the seven which of course last time when the seven came out people were saying oh yeah the seven is not a totally different case so it's super boring and everyone's just going to fall asleep looking at it um but the seven had actually a lot of really crazy technology in it one for Apple you know other things other companies had done some of these things but you know the obvious things was that it's water waterproof or water resistant and dust resistant I have enjoyed that so much that you don't have to worry about it getting slightly wet you can also take pictures underwater and all summer I've been taking pictures I have to do a story on this of what how much much of an enabling technology it is to be able to go and take pictures where water isn't an issue that's a really big feature and other companies have done some waterproofing Samsung did some waterproofing that you know didn't really pass the test but um Sony has been doing waterproofing for years but Apple's bringing it to the mainstream with I mean they did last year with iPhone 7 um and of course the other you know huge feature of the seven was the dual cameras on the back so iPhone 8 does the same kind of things um the the fit and finish has changed and now I thought the six and the Seven were kind of they were they almost kind of reached like this Pinnacle of like basicness like if you look at them they look nice but there's nothing they don't look incredible it isn't like it kind of reminds me a lot of the iPhone 3G 3G and 3GS where the first iPhone was like this really cool like stainless steel blob and then the first one was aluminum the first one looked like you know the shiny metal and um the mass Market 3G and 3GS were plastic and it was kind of like okay so this is what's necessary to get the price down to make it available to everybody but um it was just sort of like you know it's like an okay design it's like yeah this works it doesn't have the same kind of like cool feel like a temperature cool I mean being piece of metal in your hand it was now this kind of sort of practical plastic and when iPhone 4 came out it was like wow this is like what Steve Jobs described as being like the design of a Leica camera and it felt amazing again and that kind of went on the you know the five which is sort of like fancier and had this kind of gleaming camper Edge and that didn't change until the six and the six six plus and seven have all had this kind of same look of just being like super streamlined it looks like a Airstream trailer or something you know it's just kind of beautifully minimal that you put in the case anyway and they're very nice and and the differentiation has been kind of a finish on the outside you can get the product red one you can get the jet black or something like that with the eight what's changed is they have a functional glass back that allows you to do um the wireless charging but it also gives it a totally different sort of look because you have the the the edge that is stainless steel on the on the 10 and I believe it's aluminum on the eight and 8 plus yeah uh is chromy you know shiny and the back whether it's white or white or black um and they have the Gold version on the eight uh is because it's beyond underneath glass is kind of like a frosted glass like very shiny it's kind of like jet jet black but covered in glass and then you have color options so it is a very distinctive phone although a lot of that distinctiveness is going to be um obscured if you put it in a typical case so that's the appearance the feeling of it um it's kind of kind of feels the same when you when something looks different it also has even if it feels the same it it kind of conveys a different feel um I didn't notice that it felt colder because it was glass but um it's it has like an attractiveness to it it has kind of a flare where the previous models were just sort of like here's a phone that you're going to put in a case yeah should people be concerned about breaking the glass do you think yeah I think the front and the back are both something that if you drop it hard enough you're going to crack it and if you look around there's a lot of people with crack screens I have to keep saying though I've had an iPhone now for 10 years and I have never broke the screen and I have dropped them many times sometimes on the corner sometimes flat on concrete um sometimes across you know Stone stairs and I've never broke the screen but when you you've done that you've always had it in a case with a screen protector of some kind yes no I actually I've only used a case kind of recently I've dropped all kinds of naked iPhones all the time on hard Services tile a lot and I've never broke the screen interesting but I see a lot of people who have broken screens I mean like almost all my friends have broken phone screens sole said this is this is a you know more strengthened glass they keep making advances and I mean it's actually their supplier Corning probably uh that's you know developing better and better glass for the front and the back so uh you know we don't have any data on how much more resistant it is but yeah I would definitely say this is a expensive device you would handle it with care and probably put it in a case although having it in a case also changes the feel of it I have Apple's leather case M that makes it feel makes it feel thicker but it it makes it feel a lot more secure and I have actually dropped it in the case and I'm sure the case has saved it a couple times more recently that I I don't even have a Nick on it yeah I've I've known people who've been in both camps I've known people who said Apple intended this device to be held like this they they intended to be without a case you should carry it without a case um the the alternative point of view that I subscribe to is this thing would cost several hundred up to $1,000 to replace I darn well better protect it with you know the the cheap piece of plastic that I use or whatever it is it is a lot Slimmer the the whole like 66 S7 has been it feels super slim when you don't have a case on it it feels nice however um it's also kind of slippery and unlike previous models like the four and the five it doesn't have a flat Edge so you can't can't stand on the edge and uh they're actually so big now you probably wouldn't want to have it standing up on end but and of course having a round rounded Edge makes them feel smaller so in many cases the eight is not changing radically about the case the appearance has changed yeah what about the stainless steel part of the iPhone 10 uh I didn't notice that it felt really different in fact I I thought they were both using the same I was kind of surprised like wow they're both stainless steel um it is a different type of construction instead of having sort of like an outside shell with everything inside of it that the 66 S7 has been it has this appearance of like I said more like the four where you have glass panels on either side and then this metal rim although the edge of the 8 and 10 is so smooth you can't feel it I mean you can see that there's different materials there's really it's a sandwich but when you feel it it it feels like a seven it's smooth all the way around you cannot feel the edge that's a big improvement over the six and sixs construction pretty incredible um yeah like I said you look at it and you can see that it's a sandwich but when you feel it it's it feels like how do they build this because it looks like it's all crafted out of the same thing and especially with the tin you have that feeling of where does the screen end and where does the it's kind of like where does the software end and where does the hardware start um it's just a smooth gradient of integration the other the other obvious big difference between the 10 and the 88 plus is that the display on the tin is OLED and it's actually curved in the body of it so the screen goes right to the edge and it goes right into the corners and surrounds the Notch and there's kind of two modes for you're watching video you can either have it playing video and because the front of both colors with the white and the Black version of the Tim is black uh it kind of hides the notch when you have playing in as an inset rectangle where you see every pixel of the movie and if you double tap on it when you're playing it expands so that the corners the the corners of the movie are actually cut off and also the notch is cut out but I like that I've heard a lot of people complaining about it um but when you're watching a movie and you double tap it and it just takes over the whole screen it's kind of an incredible experience I mean it feels like it's just doing as much as it can and even though there is a you know there is this Notch of of the true that dep sensor array and the camera and stuff it kind of becomes invisible I mean you note it but it kind of goes away with video and of course it changes depending on what you're watching I suppose but the movies that I the movie clips that I saw uh were a mix of light and dark sort of things and after a couple seconds I didn't feel like I saw the notch now in apps it's a little bit different because you're looking at a static UI and I think there's a really big difference you know most people that are looking at this Notch situation are seeing screen captures or uh the an image from the um xcode emulator which shows what it would look like in sort of a picture with you see the whole phone there but that's a different experience when you actually have the phone in your hand you don't see animations you don't see uh Transitions and things like that when you're looking at a web page of a static image and so the of using apps where you have the little ears going up and pulling down from the corner it is a different experience and I when I look at some of those pictures I think oh yeah I wouldn't like that if I just saw this picture but I've handled it and when you have the phone in your hand and you pull down from the corner the top right corner you're pulling it down from the ear where the kind of Hardware related sensors are you know the signal meter and the battery indicator you pull down from there and it's very intuitive that that's where control senser should be be pulled down from because that's the kind of stuff that you're looking for if you pull it down from any other Corner the middle for the the left side you get notifications so that's much more control center is only the upper right is that it or is it yeah so it distinguishes between whether you start pulling down from the top right ear where like I said the battery indicator is you pull out from that you get Control Center and the you know Hardware related settings if you pull it down from just the top or the the other corner you get the typical thing that you get when you pull down from iOS device is your notifications so it's a clever way of sort of using those notches to convey some information what what do you think about reachability and reachability uh not being present on iPhone 10 so I've been using the 6s plus and 7 plus for the last couple years almost exclusively and I have very rarely ever used reachability the screen is huge you almost have to use two hands to use it I mean it's there's a lot of times where you know I keep saying I have huge hands and I still cannot reach the top of the screen in many cases but reachability doesn't seem to you know I get the idea and it's it may work for some people but typically when I use reachability it's accidental like I've bumped the home button too many times and the screen comes halfway down and I'm like how do I get it back up and I can't flick it back up with my hand and you have to remember oh yeah you hit it again with your thumb on the home button to get it back to where you wanted it but it's it's kind of a feature that you can sort of use if you remember to use it but it's it's not quite as intuitive to use or dismiss as as I would like so I don't really use it a lot so the fact that it's gone is kind of like H whatever I mean it's not gone on the eight I believe it's still working on the eight but on the 10 um first of all it's not as wide as the plus it is a taller screen but um the the width is pretty consistent with the regular you know this the the regular energy or the seven or the eight device yeah and for developers it's actually considered a compact width profile device so it actually works even though it has a bigger screen the screen is actually it's more pixels than the plus but the way that it's uh the orientation and just kind of the device and everything about it uh it it has more of the behavior of a standard iPhone 8 so it when you rotate the device to landscape H you don't get a landscape home screen or springboard right um I have to think about that I don't remember I don't remember that happening okay you when you open up mail for example you don't get a split screen like you would on the the plus device do you I think when I when I was using it it was configured I don't know if it's cuz the plush you can configure either way you can have it work sort of like a big um standard phone or you can use the pixels to have like a wider keyboard and the additional panels in mail things like that um I I don't think that's how the the tin works I think the tin is more like a standard iPhone but with just more pixels and because it's wider um it's it behaves a little bit differently um I even with the plus models I don't usually browse the web in wide mode just because I don't think if I ever if I ever do that and a number of times I thought it would be smart for Apple to use to really make use of the plus to be more like a hip top or you know like the danger phones where it's kind of like a you hold it in sort of a horizontal orientation but I Apple's never done that and it's never really caught on I mean when you're browsing the web even though it gives you a much wider display it's more like an iPad width but it it's not as functional because you don't have as much height so I don't think there's very many people at all that use even the Plus in horizontal mode and with the 10 when you put in in horizontal mode you do get a wider browser but again it's because it's a little bit narrower than the plus you're seeing less content so again the iPhone is primarily designed to be held vertically in fact I usually have vertical lock you use orientation lock right because it's actually sort of annoying like if you're you know lounging on the couch or something it keeps flipping back and forth so you just lock it and I find that there's not a lot of situations where I want to unlock it and use it in wide so that you know my initial impression that the plus phones should be wide doesn't hasn't really materialized there are some apps that do wide and and they work that way but I think the iPhone 10 shows that Apple's intent is a like I just wrote about they're getting rid of the home button on purpose mhm and they've spent a lot of time thinking about it isn't just like hey let's change things arbitrarily it's this is what we've been working on of how to get rid of the home button and how we we've been speculating on this podcast for the past three years about what it would be to get rid of the home button right and they've been thinking about it for at least that long and the home button is really a defining it was the definition of the original phone it was like way to go between apps and then it kept layering on more and more stuff you know Touch ID a few years ago uh changed it dramatically and then of course Apple pay and um there are some accessibility things that are attached to the button that is also a problem for some people some people don't have the motor skills to hit the button um was that Todd stable field that gave the presentation WWDC he was saying how wonderful it was to see Siri you know he's a paraplegic and how wonderful it was to see the voice recognition taking off and then hitting the sudden realization that oh man it still means you have to hit a button to use it um but Apple's kind of worked around that with hey Siri and having other devices that you can invoke what the home button does in a different way if for people who have motor issues that a button doesn't work for them so I don't think that's a problem for accessibility people we have to talk to some people that have that as their first experience but um there's it it just seems like such an essential definition of the iPhone in fact when you look on on Apple's website like I took that little graphic of how Apple depicts the various different iPhone models iPhone has been this rectangle with the rectangle inside of it and a circle with a home button and that is what iPhone means on a kind of iconic level and with iPhone x that is all G iPhone 10 that's gone to where it's now a rectangle with a slight Notch at the top and that's the new definition of of what an iPhone is absolutely so how would you say that your opinions have changed since um since you saw it a couple days ago you've had some time to think about it sort of digest your impressions what what do you think um has have you you reconsidered any of your initial Impressions or or what have you arrived at well thinking about the amount of work when you see a new product whether it's from Apple or anybody else I mean when you see a new product you start judging the things that you think are missing or you you realize the things that are obviously different and there's a lot of things that you don't realize how much went into building that or the decisions behind it and giving some thought to to how much effort and really what a big deal it is for iPhone 10 to not just move to a different uh slightly different um taller narrower display that with less of a margin around the outsides the bezel and losing the home button but there's really a rethinking of everything about how the phone works and there's a tremendous amount of effort that's been put into that and a lot of thought and so having been been writing about these things and and giving it some extra kind of rumination time to think uh it's kind of a new appreciation of how much thought has gone into a lot of these details and there are some things that are still remaining for example web pages and apps how do they use the full screen of the phone um I don't think there's a lot of apps that are going to be bothered by losing corners but that is potentially a thing and also having a notch if if your if your app assumes that text can go to both in of the thing of the screen when you're in the wide orientation you have to think about well how do I do that does my app only use the safe fairy in the middle or do I make some extra use of the you know so it's not a something that is going to look terrible I don't think but um it's definitely something for developers to think about in terms of how they want their app to be seen and really when you when you take advantage of the the ears on one side around the notch in novel ways you can come up with things that you know make a lot of sense and are distinctive and make your your app feel modern and um up to dat so what do you think people should know what do you think what's the question that people should ask that they don't know to ask right now about these new devices and how would you answer it what's the question that they don't know to ask yeah I mean there people are still people are still trying to figure out do they like the notch do they not like the notch are they going to miss the home button what should they really buy and and I see people waffling between buying an iPhone iPhone 10 or buying an iPhone 8 or even in some cases saying you know what forget all of this I'm just going to buy it at seven now that the price has dropped so what's your your feeling what should people be aware of that that they might not have picked up on well first of all that those things are not new we've always had people looking at the latest iPhone that's released and and saying oh do I need these features do I want to pay the premium for the latest things that Apple can come up with or do I want to take advantage of the fact that last year's phone is now cheaper or do I want to take advantage of the fact that I can get you know a refurbished phone or you know somebody's hand me down for much less so I think the real issue for most people is how how fancy do they want to be and for a lot of iPhone users you know if if you don't want to be fancy maybe you're not using an iPhone but for it's kind of incredible because other makers don't have this situation the majority every year the majority of the phones that Apple sold were its best and that happened even you know there was some talk when the iPhone 6 or the iPhone 5 s and 5c were were outlined together that you know people were kind of gravitating towards cheaper phones and the 5c was going to playcate the masses where the 5S was going to be just for people who thought a 64-bit chip was important and that turned out to be a false assumption uh for the public and even Apple um it certainly knew that the 5S was going to be a big seller but it that the product mix was a little different than it expected it was Apple sold more of the the fanciest model that it had and part of that was for Touch ID and I think coming into the T I think a lot of people although the tin is far more expensive than a phone has ever been before for an entry level phone and it you know it's $1,000 and then it goes up if you want more more storage so it is a pretty pretty high pricing tier that some people are just not going to you know I don't have the money to do that uh but the other thing is people pay so much money for data service that if you're paying you know close to $100 a month for data service you're paying more for service than you are for a phone every year so even $1,000 phone is you know it's 80 something a month or it's a couple dollars a day so there's a lot of people that don't have very much money that drink more booze or coffee or cigarettes than $2 a day so I don't think it's something that's out of the bre of people who really want it and the a phone is a little bit different than other fancy things like a stereo or a you know other things that have been sort of luxurious Electronics or you know personal possessions in the past and that we use our phones all the time they are essential for not only connecting with other people but accessing information and because you use it all the time it's you know one of the big things for that has been the the key success for apple is that phones are so essential that people are willing to pay more than they've paid for other things in the past you know I think back when I was a kid you know getting a Sony Disc man or something was considered sort of a luxurious purchase and it was you know a few hundred when the iPad iPod first came out it was you know this is sort of a fancy thing that you're listening to music but because you're experiencing it on on a regular basis it was like yeah this is something that I want to spend money on because it makes me happy all the time and phone is just like that Beyond because a it's how you connect with people it um it sets you apart in terms of kind of showing what you like you know it's it's kind of thing when people when you text somebody and they have a green bubble you think oh this person doesn't care about technology this this person has a basic phone uh this person got sold to Samsung I yeah when somebody pulls out a phone and it's like some whack android model you think I don't know what you think but you know it's you think you could have bought an iPhone for the amount of money you bought that for but but it's okay to be different I get these uh I get advertisements in my email all the time right I'm I'm sure that tons of people do get these kinds of messages and one of them this morning came with the subject line that that the iPhone was too expensive and they were offering like you say some some absurd sort of unusual Android phone and I uh I think I deleted the email promptly but it was it was very much that that kind of a pitch I think it's not only that people are willing to pay more for a phone because you use it all the time and it's so intrical to your experience but also the cost of phones are more obscured certainly in the United States where there's kind of been history of carrier subsidized phones but also um just in the fact that you can now uh in a variety of territories just do this upgrade program where it's basically like leasing a phone and so it becomes sort of a fixed expense instead of a huge one time splurge and so unless you're the kind of person that can't manage to hold on to a phone without breaking or losing it every 3 months it's not a huge expense to get this like super expensive iPhone 10 um and one of one of my favorite analysts um I coted him in the article at the end he just tweeted out saying how Apple suppliers appear to be targeting $0 a 50 million iPhone 10 a supply for people to buy in the second half of 2017 and I ask is this you mean like the second half of fiscal 2017 ending in like March he's like no the end of this year if Apple sells anywhere close to 40 million phones that means half the iPhones that they sell this this winter are going to be iPhone 10 that is incredible it's already I already keep repeating this idea that it's incredible that Apple's average selling price for iPhones is around $700 it's been consistently above $650 for a long time and now they're jumping I mean jumping to $1,000 that's a pretty big price jump and they're doing it with pretty impressive technology I mean this face unlock and all the the cool things you can do with a depth sensor in the front that is incredible and other companies have you know tried to do that before um primesense itself was selling peripheral you would attached to a laptop to the um I can't think of the brand name for it but there's a depth sensor that use the same kind of Technology it's kind of like the connect for Xbox video games uh and Google had its own version for Tango that was kind of a sort of an experimental thing that that uh you could either plug in the back of a developer tablet or there's a couple tablets like I think Lenovo came out with one last fall or last winter that had the structure sensor built into it but it was all very beta if you listen to the reviews it was just sort of like this half-baked sort of you know here's kind of some potential because that's what Google does they come out with stuff and they say here's a sort of platform that we've kind of finished and we want you to show us what you're going to do with it Apple's a little bit different in that everything they do is also a platform and they want third parties to take it and run with it but they come out with their own very practical application of that technology and for iPhone 10 and the structure sensor the primary obvious thing is Face Unlock which people are going to be using all the time that has to work if it doesn't work well people are you know this is going to be a problem um and additionally there's a lot of things that I can do with a um structure sensor can tell if you're looking at the phone or if it's okay to shut off the screen because it can look at your face and say hey are you looking at me it's okay okay there's a little bit of weirdness that people have in terms of Face Unlock and they're like thinking oh I don't want this thing looking at me all the time looking at my face and should I feel self-conscious it's like folks it's the machine it's like when you go into the toilet and there's like a sensor behind the toilet it's like checking out if you're finished or not it's like gonna flush the toilet for you it's a not something you have to be self-conscious about because it is a machine it's not sending pictures of you up to you know the main office or putting them on the cloud for someone to exploit it's something that we've accepted for several years now that it's handy to have a way for us not to have to handle the the fixtures in a public bathroom and it's really not that much of a stretch to say here's one on my phone that is also because it comes from Apple we know that it's not sending stuff up to the cloud or analyzing stuff and selling our profile to sell better advertisements it's being used to unlock our phone and the customer is us and that's why we're paying for it we're paying a premium for it but it's not only really handy for Face Unlock but it also does other cool features and enables things like portrait mode selfies where you can dynamically create a depth map of your pictures and group shots when they're pointed at you and you can do after the fact lighting shots and third parties will also be able to tap into this depth API to do really cool things and you know the most obvious thing was uh Snapchat right now kids love Snapchat and they love kind of the simple you know they're kind of sophisticated filters but being able to augment dog ears on you or something I kind of hate that but the with a structure sensor it's not just people who are 12 it's young adults it's like everyone's picture on the internet now has those stupid dog oh goodness but people like that and I think a big part of it is like we mentioned regarding FaceTime is that it's sort of it's not anonymizing but it's um it takes away some of the self-consciousness because it can like you know beautify your face and you know hide elements of your hair isn't perfect it sort of kind of blurs it out and puts a crown of flowers on it or something like that and that's why it appeals to kids and that taken on a whole new level the fact that you can on an iPhone 10 you have the technology to put a skin type mask on that's like really close to your face and it's not just sort of an effect but it's like a an augmentation of your reality and how you repr yourself that's that's a simple obvious example there's going to be so much more that developers come up with and using that depth sensor to do really cool things and now you can do it in both directions um the the augmented reality stuff that they showed off um it's it's a whole new depth literally of the iOS apis so developers have been doing all kinds of cool stuff on just a you know 2D bit map of a display now you can incorporate you can mix interactive graphics with what the camera is actually seeing and you have you're not just putting you're not just kind of gen locking graphics and video together but the camera understands the depth that understands what's out there and so you can have realistic lighting effects depending on how bright the scene is and you can have an interaction between services like with arkit games where you have a whole kind of video game it's sort of unfurling in 3D virtually sort of created on top of a table where characters kind of fall off the side of it kind of thing and it's a really new world of mixing the reality world of the camera with the constructed world of Graphics that we're already pretty good at so there's going to be some really cool stuff that comes out of this cool well thank you so much for for making time to speak with us again we're going to look for that really cool stuff coming soon where can we find you on the internet I'm writing for Apple Insider um I'm writing up a new thing on the the AR kit app for iPad that they built for exclusively for the the new Visitor Center that's coming online next to Apple Park so if you go to California I'll have to try this thing out but I get some pictures was kind of difficult to take but um got some pictures of how it works it's really cool kind of a sense of what ER can do in the real world um but Apple Insider of course and then also I'm on Twitter at Daniel aaronn yeah we're on these podcasts occasionally fantastic thank you so much and if you enjoyed this podcast please feel free to go to iTunes and leave us a positive review we always like hearing from you and you can tweet me at V marks or send us an email we love getting list your questions come back join us next week we'll have more this has been another episode of the Apple Insider podcastyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to episode 138 of the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor marks and joining me as editor and chief Neil Hughes Victor how are you you know it's been a whirlwind of a week it really has um we've we've seen these devices launched we've seen a lot of announcements we've seen a lot of people have different concern concerns about them and trying to figure out which is the device for them uh and trying to understand how they're different how they're going to work and and really what's what's both price point and and features that people need right and one of the comments that I was reading about in our forums said you know that that it used to be simple it used to be that you had the four quadrant Matrix which everyone loves to refer to whenever talk about product line discussions and and that this is not that Simplicity kind of thing that that there there's an iPhone SE there's a 6S and a 6S plus there's the S and S plus there's the 8 and eight plus and then also there's the 10 so that's five different major categories each with their own storage divisions among them yeah this this is one of those things where people are complaining about it and I'm not really sure why uh because I think everything has a legitimate reason to exist on the market as it is and this is a clear strateg this is not just some some scattershot approach that apple is taking this is a clear strategy that they've been doing to push more in both directions lowend and highend we've talked about this many times keep Legacy products on the market or use Legacy Parts as they did uh with the new entry level iPad earlier this year to hit lower price points than they ever have so this time around iPhone SE drops at $350 uh you can get a iPhone 6S for $450 um you know they're they're at these $100 price increments going forward and you can see why people would want certain products so for example you want a smaller phone you get the iPhone se you want a bigger phone with a headphone jack you can get an iPhone 6s you only want 32 gigs of storage you don't need any more than that um you can get an iPhone 7 um and then you want the latest and greatest um that's available now you can get an iPhone 8 and then you really want what's coming next then you wait until November and get an iPhone 10 uh I think that there's a legitimate case for each product to exist uh and that's very important especially in a point where uh you know the thousand of the iPhone 10 is is kind of controversial in some circles I think having the phones available at so many prices including the low $350 price point for a really great phone that can do AR kit and everything else um is really really uh impressive I think that Apple's phone lineup is more robust and and uh more consumer friendly now than it ever has been and Apple's never been afraid to cannibalize themselves that was something that Tim Cook said way back in I want to say 2011 right none of these products you know the the thing that happened in 1996 and 97 when jobs came in and slashed the uh the the huge number of products that he did to arrive at the quadrant Matrix yeah was that there were a lot of products that they were working on that weren't making any money right here in this lineup all of these products are making money yeah it's it's hard for people to understand like they they try to equate the Mac a lot of times with the iPhone and they're just not the same apple is going to sell like 80 million iPhones in a single quarter this fall think about that number it would take like 12 years of 15 years of Max sales to reach that number you know like if you're comparing the iPhone a specific iPhone model to a specific Mac model you know it's not even close the lowest selling iPhone is still outperforming the Mac so um it's the it's in Apple's best interest to hit all those price points and address all those segments because there are users out there who want different who have different needs for these devices and the technology has gotten so good and the devices are so mature that there are a lot of users that aren't going to care about certain features or don't want certain things you know I had a friend reached out to me the other day and he said am I crazy for wanting the iPhone 8 more than the iPhone 10 and I said no you're not because a lot of people are going to want the home button they don't see the need for the edge to edge screen they don't want the the the cost of it and that was the genius stroke that Apple did in all this is by introducing these three new phones and keeping around the seven and keep around the 6s and keep around the se you know the the lineup is more robust than ever and and it's a good thing for consumers now was your friend talking about the 8 plus or the eight he didn't say I I I didn't ask but uh you know maybe I think that there's some people who just are are afraid of the loss of the home button um and I think that for that reason I delved in this on the forums with some of our readers the other day and we were talking about it some people were saying oh this will be the the iPhone 8 will be the last iPhone with a home button and I said there's no way there's no way because first of all uh OLED panels cost too much the edgo edge technology um costs too much apple can't replace the entire lineup with it and they're going to have to introduce new phones with home buttons and that's not even including the people who will prefer a home button and want to have a home button you have to look at the way that Apple did with uh the iPod in the 2000s um to really see how they addressed different markets and different needs for the product s um the iPhone certainly hasn't changed as much in terms of the form factor but in The Last 5 Years uh the iPhone has changed a lot we went from 3.5 in to 4 in then 4 in to 4.7 and 5.5 in and now we're at 5.8 in so you have these different form factors different sizes different different um designs that accomplish different goals now you said two things there that the see I think we're in a a longer transition to a series of devices that don't have the home button I I think that clearly it makes sense for the SE to live on and for it to be the affordable device that uses the affordable screen that has the home button yeah but you know on a longer timeline the future is a device that doesn't have a home button I I agree it just it's not a fast transition like the move to lightning was I think this is a a 2 to three kind of Trad transition I think it might even be longer than that it it could be but you know the there there's there's sort of a push pull here right Apple wants to make a device that's accessible to everyone at every price point because they want to capture as many of these customers as they can right at the same time and and it's not just you know we we often and our listeners often think of this in terms of the market that they're listening in if you're in the US market you think of in terms of the US market but apple is a worldwide company and different countries with different uh earning levels and spending capabilities and different carrier plans right all of these things have impacts so the SE is the appropriate phone that could probably be a runaway device in one market where in another uh it sells less right right so there's there's that Push Pull and the other Push Pull is when Apple knows that something is the future it wants to deliver that future to to everyone in a consistent interface in a consistent way of interacting with something that that trying to accommodate both ways of doing something means that they they divide themselves a little bit thinner MH that that moving everyone to a future where everything is face ID where everything is is uh using these gestures is their path eventually right it's just going to take time technology wise user Behavior wise wi acceptance wise right and where we're at right now in that is that they've migrated us all to a place where all the devices in their lineup have a secure element and have authentication through it correct top to bottom including the Mac so so we're sort of at the beginning to midst step of this transition I would say yeah I think we need to get you know Touch ID on the 12-in MacBook um whether or not they do it a touch bar there um and I think you know that's really the last key piece of that transition um you know barring they could I mean now now that we have face ID do they have to put a touch bar in place or can they simply load up an IR projector and an IR camera into the screen frame right alongside the eyesight camera well that was another uh discussion I had with somebody on the forums yesterday we were talking about they were saying that they were they could see face ID coming to the Mac next um and that was not something that I agreed with I I see it coming I mean if you look look at the trajectory of touch ID uh it came to the i iPad first uh it take it took a while for Touch ID to come to the Mac it just came in 2016 less than a year ago at this point so um I I would imagine especially when going back to talk about about how we were talking about sales um and and the iPhone is just so much bigger than the Mac the iPad is you know about three times the size of the Mac uh in terms of quarterly sales so it would make sense for to come to the iPad first not only because it shares similarities with the iPhone and design and that sort of thing uh but the implementation and stuff uh if you look at the forward facing camera array um on the Mac it's never been as as advanced as it is on iOS devices um so I you know there were rumors um earlier this year that Apple could as soon as 2018 introduce a complete redesign of the iPad um kind of suggesting that it might get the same edgo Edge OLED uh take as the iPhone 10 I don't uh personally think that'll happen for a number of reasons including the limitations on OLED and the pure size or the cost of a panel of that size cost right yeah I mean you think about like the max you can spend on an iPad right now is like I think like $1,100 $150 maybe on the 12in uh iPad Pro 13-inch iPad Pro with the LTE uh I mean you're looking at like an entry level cost with a panel that size of oil of like $1,500 and the question becomes who other than me an insane person would spend $1,500 on an edgo edge olded iPad with uh face ID but um you know I I I I don't think that necessarily that transition is going to come next year but I think that we get there eventually um and I think that like you said it'll it'll come to the Mac um it'll come to Apple's entire product lineup and I I think that you know the iPhone 10 is a view of what Apple sees the future of computing and Technology takes time in addition to user acceptance and everything else uh but you know we'll we'll eventually get to a point where uh yeah I think the home button will be gone at some point uh but I don't see it happening anytime soon I would say it would take longer than five years could be and and that would just be I mean first of all the at some point the 6s is going out of the product line right that's that's not going to be maintained and released again next year I mean the the the the the headphone jack might keep it around longer in the lineup than you think you're you're right and it could do that based on government and institutional sales right where where with we saw with the iPad 2 you have to keep the model around longer to support the contracts well not just the iPad 2 I mean don't forget it wasn't until last uh July I believe it was Apple was still selling a 13-inch MacBook Pro with spinning disc drive think about that right that thing that was a could be for institutional or government sales right well I mean for whatever ever it's for I mean there's still a market for legacy technology like that people are very resistant to change and if apple is going to hold around a Mac for that long I think they're going to keep around an iPhone for that long now whether it becomes an upgraded SE and they say if you want a headphone jack get this model or they keep keep around the success or maybe even give it you know a A10 processor next year to keep it kind of somewhat up to date or something I would not be surprised if uh they have a low-end 4.7 in model with a headphone jack uh for either emerging market Mar or government or education or whatever you want to call it well so when you have a government contract the reason why I keep saying that is this when you have a a government or an education contract the contract tends to specify that you have to be able to provide service parts for service for and the device itself for so many number of years whether that's three years or five years um that you have to provide and that the device has to be both serviceable with parts so that they can't simply say sorry we don't have those parts anymore it also means that if they replace it it has to be replaced with one that is equivalent in Form and Function so if you have an iPhone 6 and you get it replaced it has to be with one a device that has the same functionality including the headphone jack and will fit whatever case or docking accessory or sled that they may have for it and I think that critics that would see and hear us talk about this and say oh that shows that Apple made a mistake by ditching the home headphone jack no it doesn't no it just means that they sold you know so many number of of successes to governments and we know that they do that right there was the because that came out yeah yeah most most apparently with the San ber shooting where the phone belongs to the county and this is also evidence of Apple saying that its products from two three years ago are still good enough to sell you know you hear these critics who say oh you know I don't need to upgrade my iPhone every year it's why do we have to put out a new iPhone every year is it really necessary well here is Apple really standing by its products over the course of years and saying this is still something that we're willing to stand by and sell to new customers and we think that IT addresses a different market so my kids discuss this with me all the time I I have children that are fascinated by what the life cycle is of product support don't ask that's that's what I've done raising these kids but you know the it came up because my wife has an iPhone 5 and as we all know iPhone 5 is 32-bit and has gone unsupported for iOS 11 so is just now ended of life ined useful life let's say and in terms of product support and so they they want to know you know what's going to go end of life next what's going to be unsupported next how long was the iPhone 5 supported for and we got I want to say a good uh What four years out of that device is that right yeah yeah and you would be hard pressed to find any other device made by any other manufacturer in the mobile space that provides software updates for that length of time time and the good news is by these devices sticking around and as part of the lineup it means that support is going to be extended even further for these devices because you look at now uh you know the entry-level iPad coming out with the A9 chip and they're probably going to sell it for at least two years before they upgrade it and they'll probably support it for at least two years after that you know look at the life cycle of the iPad 2 but that's that's good news for other A9 devices like the exactly exactly it extends over to all these other devices you know if you have the it doesn't point to good things for my iPhone 6 with the A8 chip but you know no it does not the the A8 is being left behind now because of AR kit and stuff like that but yeah I mean you you look at these Legacy devices and they still work very well and many of them are being still updated and I think that that is going to continue to extend because it's not necessarily the the level of innovation has slowed but the capabilities have become so strong that even a device from 2 three years ago four years ago uh is still a pretty powerful and capable device absolutely now face ID we touched on briefly here uh we we've talked about it on the show in the past and when we had Mike Worley on Mike posited that financial institutions were really on board with Touch ID and he was he was not positive that they would be as on board with face ID you've had some concerns about face ID also so in terms of authentication and and uh privacy and and things like that so having all of that in mind now that we've seen it announced has Apple addressed your concerns I I think they've adequately addressed Mike's in terms of of Apple pay but have they addressed yours I I think so I I was not despite what people listening and people in the comments think you know my my contrarian uh take on it was just meant for the purposes of discussion uh it was never meant to I'm not I'm not an apple cheerleader or or anything like that you know we try to cover the company as objectively um as we can we we are an independent Source on Apple and so I think it's healthy to go into an announcement like that with some level of skepticism because it's the onus is on Apple to justify why they would get rid of a proven technology like touch ID you know I heard from some friends of mine and read some comments of course U people who just don't like the fact that you know their use cases uh for logging into their phone are not going to work as well with face Ed as they do Touch ID uh I was talking to a woman the other day the pocket right yeah I was talking to a woman the other day who was saying that she's in meetings a lot and she will discreetly under a table uh unlock her phone with her finger and then just kind of peek down on the table but she never really looks at the camera and so being in a position to have to hold it up to your face at the right angle and stuff would not be convenient for her to to discretly log into her phone in which case she could just enter her passcode um but what this woman really needs is an Apple Watch well yeah depending on what you're looking to do I mean I guess if you're checking your Instagram it might not be as as good on your watch but fair I mean there's going to be use cases like that no matter what and we knew that going into it you know if you're if you're skiing and wearing a ski mask yes you cannot log in with face ID but you know what you're also wearing gloves so you can't log in with Touch ID so boohoo too bad um there are going to be situations where Touch ID would work better than face ID I think that overall face ID is going to be more convenient than Touch ID and more reliable uh you know I always am trying to unlock my phone when I'm leaving the gym and my hands are sweaty and then it doesn't work and then I get ENT my passcode and because I have a complex passcode it takes a while and it's like that's a that's a pain that annoys me and so I think for the key with security is it has to be convenient enough and good enough this is not some Fort Knox level of security this is consumer level stuff and I think that for the vast majority of people who use an iPhone they're going to prefer face ID over Touch ID and you and I have talked about this before there's even a unnecessary learning curve with Touch ID with people who press the home button and they and you got to break it through their head it's like don't press the home button just lay your finger on it just lay your finger on it and you know they even have when you do the setup Apple has to say no don't press the home button and they have to disable the functionality of the home button while you set it up to teach people how to do that that learning curve is gone with face ID it makes it easier of course now you have a learning curve of how to return to the home screen so that one step forward one step back in some respect and and and I want to say the the multitasking screen is the interesting one where you you start swiping up and then pause right that's that's the one that seemed a little awkward to me yeah apple has done some stuff to address it you know the the bar that you have to slide up uh is always going to be there um at the bottom of the screen mhm and uh they've also brought a Mac like feature over for multitasking where you can swipe left and right um and it'll quick switch between full screen apps on there um I think that they they did a pretty good job of it I'm not too concerned about the ditching of the home button um and I'm not too concerned about face ID but I think a lot of people will be um and that's why the aone exists now Senator Al Franken has has sent a message to Tim Cook asking him to address concerns about face ID's impact on consumer privacy and security yeah Franken on the Senate Judiciary Committee on privacy technology and law and he had a number of questions about the implementation of face ID particularly the how the information is created how its data structure is handled and what assurances are being given about protection of user data yeah I mean I don't want to get too political here I'll just say that Al Franken is doing his job and I don't have a problem with him questioning any new technology as a politician I wouldn't want him to just blindly trust a company I realize that people listening to this are Apple Fans and they'll go oh it has a secure enclave and blah blah blah blah blah but he is a US senator an elected official whose job it is is to ensure the uh privacy and safety of his constituents and citizens of the United States and so it's logical for him to want to get some answers on that and just because somebody asks questions doesn't mean that they're not going to be satisfied by the answers I don't think that anybody needs to read into this too much Al Franken did the exact same thing when Touch ID came out and he's done it with every other new technology that's been announced whenever Amazon has a new Echo out whenever um Google uh launches a new phone with new capabilities um he always puts out a press release and and we we get a copy of it and he asks these companies to explain their technology and to uh explain how they are protecting user privacy and I think it's a good thing that somebody like him is out there and keeping an eye on companies regardless of who they are well and that's exactly the reaction that he wants you to have it also makes him uh a good opportunity to send home a constituent letter talking about how Grady's doing on following up on these kinds of things well well that's politics yeah yeah the the part that I wanted to get to was that he he did ask Tim Cook how Apple will respond to law enforcement requests to access face print data or the face ID system itself which which of course was a big debate last year now what we do know is that in iOS 11 if you press the um the side button five times that it uh disables Touch ID or face ID yeah requiring the passcode to be entered yeah and have you tried that out Neil I I mean I I haven't I nobody's tried to rob me lately so well that you know of that I know of I just so it's it's nice to have I don't see myself you know when when I press the when I press that button five times it shows the slide to power off medical it the emergency SOS and cancel buttons and if I just say cancel at that moment and try and press the home to unlock touch ID is disabled it requires the uh the passcode at that point yeah yeah it's a nice it's one of those things you hope you never have to use like the medical emergency thing and all that but uh it's not like it hurts anybody by including it so yeah absolutely now one of the other things that we we published a quick story on is that the cost of Apple Care Plus is gone up right uh so the cost of Apple Care Plus was $129 it is now $149 for the iPhone 6s plus the 7 plus and the 8 plus um and for the iPhone 10 Apple Care Plus will now cost $199 am I wrong in presuming that it looks like these costs are tied to the screen size it certainly does look like it and that would make sense I think the screen is the most expensive component on these devices so and the uh the non-warranted screen prepars for the six and the SE the smaller size screens have gone to 129 up from 99 mhm the 6s and 7 have gone up from uh from 20 to 149 I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this no they're up $20 more rather I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this but I've never broken an iPhone screen and I've never paid for Apple Care so in the event that I do break one of my iPhone screens in the in the future um the 130 plus a year or per phone at least that I have saved uh will probably I'll come out ahead in the end I think yeah I have I have paid for Apple Care on a number of phones and I'm I'm contemplating doing it again I have always thought about doing it and and in many cases gone for it because even if I don't crack the screen there's something very nice about in the second year of of use of the device because I don't change phones every year being able to walk in and say I have Apple Care Plus uh my battery life is reduced because I'm in the second year of using the device uh could you please take a look at it and they they hand me a fresh device without any questions yeah that that is nice I did deal with some haggling at the Apple Store a couple months ago because my iPhone SE was giving me problems and then finally after I continued to have problems they agreed to take the phone apart to see if there was any damage internally and I guess their machine that was taking the phone apart somehow ripped the uh uh the battery cable and trying to remove the battery so they just ended up giving me a new phone anyhow right and I've never had to do any of that sort of haggling or hoping that that something would cause that to work I just walk in and say I purchased Apple Care Plus help me out and they do yeah yeah they were like doing Diagnostics and they're saying oh your your battery looks fine from our tests and it's like well you're not using it and seeing that it just randomly drops from 70% to 20% so right and and so one of the things that they do is that they have Diagnostics that they can pull out of the lightning cable when they connect they show me all that and they show that the battery is it's not just whether or not the battery is working properly at its Mo maximum capacity it's is the battery degrading over time within our expectations yeah they can actually pull up a chart that shows your use over the last you know seven days or whatever and it shows spikes and and drops and power and stuff right but you know we know that batteries age over time and have less capacity over time and over overcharge cycles and they can say well the battery is at this point in its life cycle we think that it should be about there if it's about where we think it should be then that's still normal my my lack of Need For Apple Care is why I've never used the iPhone upgrade program um but I always tell people if you are buying Apple Care then you should just do the upgrade program because it's just an interest free loan over two years you know it's not like you're paying anything extra but if you're not getting Apple Care then it may not be the best deal because that's $130 sacked on so yes well now it's $150 $150 tacked on there you go there you are um so so we we do this extensively right we talked through all the rumors leading up to this phone so help me out here who was right and who was wrong because we've tried to give weight to these along the way and say you know we think the ones that come from this analyst tend to be more correct we think the ones that come from this Source are questionable but we're telling them about you telling you about them anyway so so help me out can we evaluate and say and score these a little bit yeah you know the the every year the discussion of the rumors builds a little more and and people get a little more critical of certain sources and we've talked a lot on this podcast about how Ming quo is everybody's kind of love him or hate him analyst um and I have repeatedly said that the guy gets more right than anybody else and I stand by that and uh you know this year was a little different because of the iOS 11 GM leak that took place last week uh before the Apple event um we basically knew every thing um it broke on a Friday night and I was working until 3:00 in the morning covering all that stuff but prior to that uh most of the stuff that we knew about the iPhone 10 and iPhone 8 was uh leaked by Ming quo now that is not to say the guy has a perfect track record he does not far far from it um he got a few key things wrong so you know we wrote a story kind of running through all the rumors and of course it focused on Ming quo and the reason it focused on him is because he reported the most stuff and he said uh the biggest miss that he had I think was uh saying that the iPhone 10 would launch alongside the iPhone 8 and by the way it takes a lot of concentration for me to not say iPhone x when I read it I even though I said iPhone you you and everyone else I I never said OS X I always said OS 10 but for some reason iPhone 10 doesn't seem doesn't read as well anyhow uh I yeah he said it was going to launch alongside the iPhone 8 uh on September 22nd and it is not it's launching much later it's launching in November he also said it was going to come in three colors there were leaked uh gold Shades that ended up not panning out uh that was probably something circling around the supply chain that Apple decided not to do um he did nail the screen size way before anybody else I think it was March of 2016 he said it was going to be a 5.8 inch screen but he did have this weird diversion where for a while he was saying that the screen was going to have a dedicated function area that was a separate OLED panel not accessible to apps he was completely wrong on that and all of the people that draw mockups drew that as sort of a dock exactly as we saw on the iPad we don't have yeah and he uh also uh kind of waffled on whether or not the iPhone 10 would have Touch ID he was saying that Apple was going to have it in there and then he said they were trying to but it wasn't working out and there were technical challenges so I mean he did get some stuff wrong um in a big way I the the my that I really found the most funny was he said just a couple weeks ago really uh that the Apple Watch series 3 with cellular may not support voice calls at launch and his Logic for that was that a lot of carriers don't do voiceover LTE and so therefore wouldn't it wouldn't make sense to have it on the on the watch uh and then Apple of course at this week's event did a voice call demo with a woman doing standup paddle boarding in California so not just any random woman this was a woman who was on the Apple watch team right so uh obviously way wrong on that prediction as well but uh if you go down the list uh like I said the 5.8 in OLED um he was the first to report on that uh when rumors of the edgo edge iPhone 10 first started leaking people were thinking that it was going to supplant the iPhone plus model he was the first to say that they would actually be two separate models he was right on that uh he predicted the ,000 starting price back in February of this year um he was the one that said that the Dual lens camera would remain exclusive to the iPhone 8 plus this year and the 4.7in model uh would still have a single lens he was the first one to say that all the phones would have glass backs he was the first one to say that all the phones coming out this year would support wireless charging he was the first one to say that they would have fast charging via the lightning Port if you got the USBC to lightning cable um he also reported the day of the event that Apple did not would not be selling its own wireless chargers at the launch of the devices this year and that it would uh and that they would not launch until next year um so he by far got the most right now was was he perfect no uh but he had a better battering average than pretty much everybody else out there despite his misses and he took a lot more swings than everybody else too so uh you know people in the comments will say oh he's overrated I could have guessed this stuff you're telling me that you would have guessed a 5.8 inch LED screen back in March of of 2016 and then stood by it for the next year and a half or known that all the phones were going to get wireless charging when it was thinking that that was just you know the conventional wisdom was that maybe they would put it in the iPhone 10 you know the guy got most of it right um outside of that you know Apple itself leaked a ton of stuff the iOS GM uh iOS 11 GM that came out and the developers Steven trotton Smith and Gil Herme I'm pronouncing his name wrong I'm sure Rambo GM G gam Rambo um those guys work their butts off to get uh um uh all that information that came out within the last week even before that with the homepod leak um the Japanese site Mac otakara um had some pretty good Scoops that nobody else had uh they predicted the later iPhone launch they said that both the black and white models would have a black bezel on the front um Bloomberg and Mark Gman there had some decent Scoops but all of them were like later than everybody else so you know they were they would say oh yeah um it's going to have a stainless steel frame with the glass front and back and it's like well mingi already reported that like six months earlier or um you know face ID is going to replace Touch ID but that was after the rumors had already started saying that uh the biggest things that they had at Bloomberg were software related um they explained that there wouldn't be a virtual home button that there would be a new gesture to return to the home screen um and also that Apple would not be hiding the notch at the top of the screen and and those were good Scoops that came with the last few weeks so Bloomberg was pretty reliable even though that they weren't first and I didn't really want to pick on anybody else but I know that uh John grber of Daring Fireball had made a few predictions this year here um that were completely off uh he he thought that the iPhone 10 would be called iPhone x that wasn't any sort of inside information but that was his speculation he was completely wrong um then he did have a source that told him the Apple Watch series 3 would have a all new form factor and aside from that ugly ugly ugly ugly Red Dot on the crown the watch looks exactly the same so he was I get a sense that you don't like the Red Dot of the LT version I I don't understand why they put that on there I don't know why it exists I mean I guess if you're Petty enough that you really want people to know that you have an LTE version of the watch that's fine but it's like it's on every model it's on the stainless steel one it's on the ceramic one and it's like who wants this dot but hold on there is a huge problem es both in the ordering of devices especially from a retailer other than Apple or buying secondhand knowing what products you have and what stops you from putting a red sticker on your Apple watch first Generation Well you you should be able to tell the difference between a red sticker and the one that Apple's put on in manufacturing I think it's I think it's uglier in sin I can I cannot believe that they did that look I trying to explain the difference between a series zero or a first version of the Apple watch and a series 1 is hard enough right especially when they both look the same the same is true of of you know you you're trying to buy an Apple Watch and you trying figure out is I'm I buying the series one or the series 2 and you have to look at the model number to determine it having something anything visually that differentiates it becomes helpful I understand that that's not the one you would have chosen but it's so so difficult and and it's all right years ago I placed an order for an iPod touch and I was ordering the third generation iPod Touch because I had a need for the the different processor that was inside it to be able to run applications and I ended up with three second generation iPad touches because each time I ordered a third generation I got shipped a second gen because no one could tell the difference and the same thing is true of the watch it's really hard to figure out which version you have when they all look identical I get it I get the problem I I get that you don't like the Red Dot but there's something reassuring to be a about being able to tell very easily which one you're looking at it is unsightly now I run into the same problem because trying to determine am I looking at the series 3 with GPS or am I looking at a series 2 to is going to be just as difficult yeah but it's it's a problem well there is a company that reached out to me a couple weeks ago that I kept on my radar I'm going to write an article about this this week so keep your eye out for it if it isn't already live by the time people listen to this um a company called watch dots that's been around since the first uh Apple watch came out and they sell stickers that match the colors of the bands that Apple sells that you stick onto the digital crown and to the side button and for 10 bucks you get these little these little decals and I plan on getting a black dot to put over the stupid ugly Red Dot on this watch because I I I i' love everything about the Apple Watch series 3 the Apple Watch series 3 is amazing I love the fact that it works with apple music and it's going to work with third party apps and give you this connectivity I don't like the fact that it cost $10 a month with carriers but um yeah everything about it is great why why did they put this red dot on there it's so ugly I I can't begin to tell you why they chose the Red Dot it's so bad when that first leaked as part of the Iowa Johnny when Johnny I comes out of his cave every six months and sees his shadow he makes a change to a product and this was the product you got I when the iOS 11 GM leaked last week um and it showed that red dot I was just trying to think I'm like why would they do this and I was thinking like maybe maybe it's actually like a like a light up thing and like that's how you know you have a notification but that you're not you wouldn't be able to look at the digital Crown cuz on the side I was like I was trying to like come up with a reason for it because it was like there's no way they couldn't do there's no way and not only is it there it's on every Model H okay your frustration is frustration that people have felt from design changes from Apple in years past there were people that were very frustrated at the iOS 7 design changes and the move away from the iOS 6 kind of uh SC morphic design yeah there are people that are are very frustrated about the idea of the loss of the headphone back there are all kinds of changes and your frustration mirrors those exactly because you you don't see a net positive benefit no it's just I am excited to check out the new bands though I will be getting a series 3 watch um as I've said on here many times I love the Apple watch and I love the idea of being able to leave my phone behind when I go for a run um you know Siri being faster and and working anywhere and and uh being able to get text messages and phone calls and all that and be connected uh are all um cherries on top and I'm I'm very very excited about uh when I go to the gym when I go for a run or just when I go out on the weekends just sometimes leaving my phone at home that's going to be it's going to feel very freeing and that's exciting to me yeah well I got 99 problems but a red dot on my watch ain't one you like the Red Dot it doesn't offend me all right well there there are far more other things that I can choose to be offended about than a red dot really but I am looking forward to your exclusive review of a black sticker that you're going to put over I will I will so we have we have never before on Apple Insider reviewed a sticker to my knowledge no no we have not godspeed all right so tell me about the loss of reachability as a function yeah this was something that um I did a little kind of PSA article on um that kind of caught on on Twitter and stuff people talking about it uh generated some discussion in the comments and I found it pretty interesting um I really like the iPhone 10 I like a lot about it but the one thing that drives me nuts about the iPhone 10 is because now that the home button is gone and we swipe up from the bottom of the screen to return to the home screen and multitask you can no longer swipe up from the bottom of the screen to Access Control Center and it's even more frustrating now that we have IOS 11 which makes control center more powerful and customizable than ever and so for me uh on my handy dandy iPhone SE I swipe up from the bottom of the screen to do a lot of things including access the flashlight adjust the volume adjust the brightness do music controls quickly go into do not distur mode before I start recording the podcast put on airplane mode when I get on a flight put on low power motive I'm going out for the day now an iOS 11 that it's on there uh I use I have a bunch of homekit accessories I use use control center to turn off lights and on in my home on home kit all the time and so that's awesome when you can just swipe up quickly from the bottom of the screen with one hand the iPhone 10 is designed for two-handed use and this is evidence by the fact that because there's no home button uh and because Apple decided not to program a way to do it there is no longer reachability so to give you a little history lesson and why this is important Apple's first iPhone obviously was 3.5 in they expanded to 4 in and with the iPhone 5 which your wife still uses and when the iPhone 5 came out they had to kind of justify the size especially when phones that were coming out at the time for a variety of reasons including the fact that LTE radios consumed too much power so they had to get more battery in there Android phones were on much much much uh uh bigger screens and so Apple decided not to go as big and so they put out a commercial explaining why and Jeff Daniels narrated and it shows the thumb of a user ing from all four corners of an iPhone 4 and saying you know it's it just makes sense it's the size of the average person's hand it just works and so because that was such a part of the marketing campaign for the five and later the 5S when they went with the larger screens for the six Apple had to appease those customers that were a fan of the one-handed use and kind of justify their their jump to the bigger screen so they included a feature on the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus and has been on every phone since then called reachability and reachability is basically rather than pressing the home button you simply rest your thumb on it twice quickly in succession and what it does is it brings down the screen to half size so that you can reach up and touch for example like a back button that might be in the top left corner or something half height right yeah half height and uh it's so you double press double tap I I don't know how you would put it double you you double tap you aren't pressing the button in you're just double tapping the surface of it right yeah double tap the home button without pressing and then you can do one touch on the screen and it will then automatically expand back to full size and so that is you know you're using your phone one-handed for whatever reason and you for example you're browsing the App Store and you want to hit the back button in the top left and you can't reach it with one hand so you double tap on the home button you press it and then it goes back to full screen and you're good well because there's no home button on the iPhone 10 there is no reachability anymore and Apple has not the I mean unless this changes before the phone Ships Come November they have not programmed any way to do this and if you look at all the videos uh showing the device being used and accessing these functions um uh they show it being used two-handed so it's clearly the phone was designed to be used as a two-handed phone so to bring all that full circle uh because control center is no longer swiped from the bottom of the screen on the iPhone 10 it's actually in the upper right quadrant uh on the right side of of the notch um so if you want to access notification center you swipe down from the left side of the Notch and if you want to access control center you swipe down from the right side of the Notch and so this is going to be a big change to how you use your phone because for me I instinctively pick up my phone swipe up hit the flashlight or swipe up hit hit uh uh homekit controls and it's all there on on the control center from the bottom of the screen now maybe you pick up your phone and choke up your handle a little bit higher and then swipe down from the top or whatever I mean this is you know total first world problem this is the equivalent of the nuisance that it was learning how to use natural scrolling is I think that what happens now is um you used to uh currently you pick up your phone and and you're choking your hand more toward the bottom of the phone right so that you can access the thumb the home button because that's the most important thing for you to be able to access now maybe with the iPhone 10 you pick it up but your hand is more toward the middle of it because you don't need to press the bottom of it to unlock you do need to swipe from the bottom so it'll be interesting to see how that works I wonder if maybe um on the lock screen at least Apple doesn't require you to swipe from the very bottom and allows you to swipe from more towards the middle just to quickly pick up your phone and access I I don't know I'm I'm just speculating but um I could see where the Habit becomes picking up your phone your thumb is more toward the middle of the phone so now you can swipe down from the top to Access Control Center and so I didn't mean for this story to come across as a oh I hate big phones kind of thing more so just a Apple's design philosophy has changed in a significant way with the iPhone 10 Apple has always gone out of their way to to cater to one-handed use and even in iOS 11 they've introduced a new one-handed keyboard for making it easier to type but this is an example of where the iPhone 10 design philosophy has changed and they are no longer making an attempt to cater to those one-handed users and it'll be interesting to see if they do a course correction on that or if things stay the way they are my you I did a very informal uh anecdotal survey and and what I found was that among the the small number of people asked it's a totally totally invalid survey for any purpose of of kind acal numbers right but I suspect Apple has real numbers is is that more people that I asked triggered reachability accidentally than intentionally right I somebody in the comments from that standpoint yeah so hey look at that someone else said that too yeah and I'm not just reporting my own opinion I did really ask about 10 people but I I know totally statistically invalid survey if that's true and more people accidentally triggered it than intentionally then it makes sense to move away from doesn't it perhaps um you know I C 10 people against 85 million is is really a big unknown but and plenty of people in the comments were saying that they use reachability all the time and I was seeing people complain um uh and I mentioned this in my story I have not personally tested it but um I guess it used to be an iOS 10 and earlier with reachability you could use it to invoke the notification center but with iOS 11 they've made it so that you cannot swipe down to invoke notification Center when using reachability so uh that's another change away from one-handed use which is which is somewhat interesting uh whether that gets addressed in the final release of iOS 11 or in a further in an update down the road and was maybe an oversight I don't know but there were certainly a lot of people that waited in the comments saying that they use reachability all the time uh when I was using an iPhone uh 6s I did not use reachability um I just uh would uh kind of extend my thumb a little further and I could I could make that reach um but it's important to remember cuz somebody was saying uh somebody tweeted us and people were saying in the comments oh well it's the iPhone 10 is about the same size as the iPhone 7 and iPhone 8 uh you know it's the basically the same form factor well you don't reach up and touch the bezel and the the speaker area on an iPhone 8 or an iPhone 7 you don't reach that far you only reach as far as the screen goes yes it's the same size form factor generally speaking but the phone screen is much bigger it goes from from 4.7 in to 5.8 in it's bigger than the than the plus screen size so you're going to have to reach that much further to get to the edge of the screen to do those gestures absolutely it's it's going to be a change that's all we can really say is that there's definitely going to be a change here and people who use this new device are going to have to get accustomed to it so are you getting one of the new phones Victor um I would like one of the new phones I am very probably not getting one of the new phones mhm uh uh first of all because my my uh expense budget from the cabal that run at the dark headquarters of Apple Insider doesn't necessarily permit it and you know I just I just can't file that much on an expense report I'm sure you know how that works um the other reason is is because I am interested in seeing what comes after iPhone 10 m and I say that because my observation is that when Apple introduced is a new technology a flagship technology that the first year it comes out it's wonderful it's great it's well executed but the second year they refine it and and a good example of that would be the iPhone 5S that came with Touch ID but did not have the secure element and so it didn't do support Apple pay and that the year after we got the iPhone 6 which did so well this I can't conceive of what they might improve upon but clearly they know what to improve upon right they've already got they've already been working on the road map for what comes after iPhone 10 for 6 months for sure yeah the rumors say that we're going to get a plus-sized iPhone 10 next year so something more of the form factor of the iPhone 8 plus but with a you know 6.6 inch display or something right so and and that makes good sense because the iPhone 10 even though it has the longer screen surface area it uh if you rotate it into landscape mode you don't have the same useful height as you do from a plus-sized device right so partly I'm I'm I don't have the budget partly I'm waiting for what comes next and I'm I'm also interested in what the naming conventions are going to be next because we have eight and 10 so what what do you what do you name the devices next uh good question I don't know you know am I am I going to wait around for an iPhone 9 when we've already had a 10 that's been released I I don't know may maybe it's like OS 10 and it just keeps the name for 15 years it it could it very well could um but then that it's so weird because you have the iPhone 8 so does that increment or are they just all iPhone 10s branding of subnames on products has never been a strong suit for Apple especially when well there there have been examples of this in the past right the iPad 3 the the fat iPad was the new iPad mhm when it was announced which of course was always going to be a difficult device because when the IP it was iPad with retina display and then that later that year was the iPad 4 which was the next generation iPad with retina display I believe yes but but Apple officially did Market the iPad 3 as a new iPad for a while well no because iPad 3 was the first one with the r display so I think they called it iPad with r a display at any rate yeah I agree with you in whole naming has been a difficult one iPad Air then iPad Air 2 but never got an iPad Air 3 moved onto the iPad Pro now we just have a regular iPad that's a size of the first Air iPad air but it's not it's like oh geez it's it's difficult isn't it it really is and and clearly it's a challenge for them because they have as much trouble with it as we do yeah and I you know I I think that they don't think that far ahead uh I think that they're focused more on making the product and and the naming conventions are kind of you can see where the Market's going what's going to make you stand out what's going to whatever you know certainly uh I think that the fact that Samsung is up to the number eight on their phones May contribute to why we have iPhone 8 and iPhone 10 this year um I think that that I'm sure Apple's internal you know marketing research teams can look into that stuff and see how much it matters with consumers it doesn't matter to me but I I'm sure there's a lot of people that that that fall for those little tricks and so it's good business sense to follow along and do those kind of things definitely now I want to talk about something that I know is close to your heart yes charging now you have run a number of articles on the the website and also talked here on the podcast about charging speeds and how to charge an iPad Pro for example at a faster charge rate you have to buy a separate brick and a separate cable to be able to do it tell me about quick charging the iPhone 8 and the iPhone 10 yeah the uh the sins of the father uh have been passed on to the the from the iPad to the iPhone now I want to say that sigh was palpable I could really tell the the pain that you feel there you know I I sympathize with apple um in some respects on this because they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place um they don't want to put out new lightning cables and power bricks uh that run on Old USB full-size ports because they have the new USBC connector that they're pushing on the Mac however they don't want to ship USBC connectors with the iPhone because then people that have Legacy USB port computers which is the vast majority of people buying iPhones wouldn't be able to plug it into their computer and they don't want to ship it with multiple cables in the box so what do you do there is no good answer um but unfortunately for Apple they you know their choice is a bad one no matter what I I don't know what they would do to fix it but the iPhone 8 and I iPhone 10 will both ship with basically the same 5 wat power adapter and with a regular usba a fullsize USB port to lightning connector the phones will support usb3 Quick Charge capabilities which will give you 50% juice in your iPhone in 30 minutes which is awesome the problem with that is you have to go and buy a $20 or $30 USBC to lightning cable and you have to buy a USB C power brick with the appropriate wattage so if you were buy official Apple products the cheapest one you can get is the 29 watt brick for the 12-in MacBook and so now you're looking at another $70 tacked onto your $1,000 phone just to get the Quick Charge capability now the fact that they do this with the iPhone 8 I understand that's their consumer focused product whatever but with the iPhone 10 which is geared toward premium users and high-end users and even more so with the iPad Pro which is designed as a computer replacement I find this to be highly unacceptable and I think it I don't think that Apple's doing it as a cheap skate move but it comes across as a cheap skate move it comes across as nickel and Diamond that you have to spend another $70 to get fast charge capabilities which is something that most people want you know this is something where um I I think that most consumers say if you ask them what's the number one problem with their iPhone they're going to say battery life I want the battery to be to last longer one way of addressing that since we can't magically invent better batteries is to make it charge more quickly you know you have it charged in the car while you're driving you charge it your desk while you're working you come home from the gym and take a shower and pop it on there and get a get a quick charge on it uh having it juice up more quickly is is a good thing um and I think it should ship in the box with that now whether a better solution would be to make a full-size USB 3 uh to lightning cable with a more powerful power brick in in the Box I don't know but uh whatever they're doing right now is not not smart okay wireless charging wireless charging is interesting um I didn't think we got a tip before uh Apple's event which ended up being 100% right from an anonymous source saying that Apple wasn't going to ship their charger until 2018 um and uh in the interim Belin and mphi were going to step up to the plate with their own accessories um that that was that was accurate um Apple's own charging solution is going to be interesting as well I think it's going to have a mix of like NFC in there to allow it cu the the chi uh uh open standard that they're using um only allows one device to charge at a time uh Apple is going to kind of address that on their air power charging pad with some NFC technology the devices are going to talk to one another it's only going to work with newer devices um so um I I think that wireless charging is good it's not something I'm personally excited in about uh the thing I find more exciting about wireless charging is cu I use a mofy battery case with my phone and it occupies the lightning port and especially if you have an iPhone 7 that uh you want to use wired headphones with it and now the lightning Port is occupied by a battery case I'm excited by the prospect of Snap-on Wireless uh battery cases that leave the lightning Port open so that you can plug in your headphones and use them right so you want a a battery case that charges by Chi and also charges the phone by Chi well I don't care the head I I I don't care if it charges by Chi I don't know that I would I don't know that I would be interested in buying a wireless charging pad but I'm saying just connecting it to the phone without occupying the lightning port and being able to recharge the phone without covering that Port would be very nice what I can tell you is that wireless charging is incredibly convenient that when I've used it I have liked it a lot it's it's uh really something brilliant now there's there's sort of an intermediate step here where we've seen this tried to transition for years uh there have been charging ports that have been built into tables at staru bucks for for trial Starbucks there have been movements from Ikea where Ikea has made furniture that allows you to build the charging puck for wireless charging directly into the the surface of the furniture yeah and I think what happens is that that becomes more of a thing that we see in the market once this standard really takes hold yeah I see that in the meantime there's there are products like the Balon boost up and uh mof's Force charge product Char rather charge Force and and those charging bases don't cost very much in the scheme of things to get a a charge Force wireless charging base from Mofi is 40 bucks yeah this is something very cool uh I I can't tell you how great it is you have to experience it for yourself but the idea that you don't have to physically manipulate the cable into the charge port is good you just put it down on the base and leave it yeah that's cool I I don't see myself laying a charging mat on my desk I'm kind of limited for desk space as it is and a dock uh is a little more convenient in terms of taking less real estate good news there are docks that have back rests with ch built into them yeah that's cool I can see myself using something like that I it's very you know instead of having to aim it and get it right on the dock on the lightning connector sticking up from a dock just sitting it in the dock and having it charge yeah I don't you still get the the vertical orientation you like and it's charging I don't see myself buying like new furniture or anything like that um it is funny that over time right people replace furniture and when you replace Furniture over time will you get one that has it built in sure why not my parents bought a Toyota Avalon a couple years ago that has a wireless charging thing in it and uh obviously it doesn't it didn't work with previous iPhones but I had checked anyhow to see if one would fit on there because my mom has an iPhone 7 plus and the phone's too big to even fit on the wireless charging pad so even if they got an iPhone 8 it would just wouldn't work well but so here here's the other thing right Toyota has been very late to the game in terms of Apple carplay they've they've held off and resisted doing it right but in in the future when you have a car that comes equipped with wireless carplay and a wireless charging mat in the armrest or in the console then you have the perfect storm because you just put your phone in because you need a place for your phone to sit anyway or you leave it in your pocket or your purse whatever but you can just sit it there and have it charge and it will wirelessly do carplay at that same time that is a perfect storm yeah no I think that's a great use case for it absolutely cool well I'd like to draw this segment to a close is there anything you want to use as a parting thought um I'm still not sure which phone I'm I'm going to get I I would definitely get an iPhone 8 4.7 in if it had the dual camera I've been very envious of the dual camera on the iPhone 7 plus for last year using my SE so I'm not interested in the full size of the of the iPhone 8 plus so I'm I'm considering the iPhone 10 um I want to get it um the the the combination of the price and and the giant screen and some other quirks um have me debating it I but I think that you know if you're not somebody insane like me who likes smaller phones I think this is a great phone lineup um I don't have a problem with it I I just I like uh the I value my uh pocket space I suppose so uh I will probably end up getting a iPhone 10 but I don't see the iPhone 8 lineup really appealing to me because you want that dual camera and you want to air on the smaller size of device right if they if they put the dual camera on the iph 8 this year with the home button and all that I I would have no qualms with the missing headphone jack or anything else I I would totally get the 4.7 in phone because I want to have that 2x Zoom right so what I think happens here is is if it's as you say right if if next year we get the plus-sized device of the iPhone 10 then we end up in a world where the iPhone 10 has the dual camera the smaller device has the dual camera as well as the larger device right that's that's where it's going Neil So you you should get the iPhone 10 you should spend that money I that probably what I'm going to end up doing um if I can get one we'll see how many they can manufacture at launch there you go all right well this has been this segment of the app and sold podcast uh Neil nickol and dime Hughes where can we find you on the internet you can read me on Apple Insider and I'm on Twitter at thisis Neil NE all right we'll be right back with another segment with Daniel Aon diler Dan thanks for coming back yeah thanks for having me so you after the announcement on Tuesday got to go into the Hands-On area can you tell me a little bit about what it was like because my understanding is that when you come down the stairs and then go into the theater Hands-On area is sort of blocked off by a wall and then when you come out the wall has somehow retracted yeah you don't see uh when when you enter so when you enter the SE theater you have that it's been portrayed in a lot of pictures it's just a huge cylinder of glass with a lid on top of it uh so when you walk in there is a couple elevators that that do the twisting turning motion as they come down but the main way to get down there is there's two stairways that Circle uh either side of the outside of the the ring so there's these two grand stairways that both lead down from the top down to the same place it's the opening of the theater and as you walk down these stairways it looks like just sort of a hallway that's opening out into the theater that's still below you so you come out at the top of the theater and then you walk down into it so on the way in you don't get the sense that there's something else there it looks like there could be a room it's like this big round room but as cook was finishing the comments he said you know check out our great Hands-On theater and it was actually the the thing was moving so it's like this huge uh wall of kind of stainless steel looking panels that retracts around like a theater of its own like this huge periphery of wall that that goes around it's like a curtain it's like a round curtain wall but it looks like a solid wall when when you first see it and then it retracts and all of a sudden you come out of the theater and there's this huge round room that's you know High ceilings and have these dramatic stairways on either side going up uh so it's a very beautiful location however it is a little bit Apple's Hands-On areas after their presentations are always beautiful I mean they're always like very nicely done however it's really difficult to see anything because first of all there's crowds of people second of all they have like handful of products on display you know they have a limited number of people that can it's a large number of people fighting over access to a small number of products yeah and there's a lot of fighting because there's are people from all over the world there's all different kinds of cultures represented in terms of like how you whether you wait in line or whether you just push in front of people the etiquette for how you fight over them is uh a little bit different than you might expect is that what you're talking yeah and and these are journalists so they're used to like fighting to get a mic in the story and get a camera in so you kind of have to do the same thing um but yeah there's it it feels like there's not quite enough tables and not quite enough people and then at the same time there's another issue is that you have this beautiful uh spot they have round tables everything about it is is incredibly beautiful however the lighting is very harsh lights from the ceiling pointing down so if you are handling one of these devices that's you know Chrome and beautiful glass reflective let's say yes and of course the screen is also going to be reflective from the watch to the phone uh it's just covered in Dots and a lot of the pictures that we took it looks like there's some kind of virus on these products because they're just covered in spots so it is is difficult to take pictures of things how's the color cast when you're doing that is it is it also blown out or is it uh is it that was less of an a problem I mean they're they're pretty neutral bright lighting but just the fact that it's so there's so much Sheen it's difficult to get Reflections um so interesting you think of that right I mean the iPhone is the the most popular camera in the world right now or at least mobile phone photography is you you'd think that they would uh have have tested what does an iPhone taking a picture result in in this room you'd think they also uh probably use really highend equipment I mean I took pictures with my phone primarily um I was using a a gimbal Mount to take pictures of the environment and in the room itself but um a lot of it is handheld and you're trying to hold a device and take pictures of it it's a little harder than it seems it should be juggling two things of course it could be worse you could be juggling a DSLR right right I've done that before and that's why I go with the phone because it's just so much simpler but a lot a lot of people there have you know um very highend professional gear cameras and they have their own lighting that they bring and they have multiple people holding things and talking to a person whose job is just to recite what they've already been told the whole sort of environment reminded me of in Japan you know there's Lookout Towers you go to Tokyo and there's actually a couple different ones where you go out and you can see out over the vast expanse of Tokyo and when you try to take pictures of it the the way that the glass is positioned in the lighting it's just kind of impossible to take good pictures why are the towers that they designed impossible to get a picture out of that's a well because the people doing the architecture aren't the people making the photos well perhaps uh they're redoing the the Space Needle in Seattle and are they really I think that's yeah it's a privately owned structure and they're going to close it down and and take out all the walls actually haven't I've been there several times to the ground and seen it but I haven't paid the premium to go to the top I I have I have eaten in the restaurant at the top yeah a long time ago I eat in the restaurant it's it's kind of in fact when I when I try to remember my experiences in Space Needle it reminds me of f term in Germany in Berlin which is also kind of the same thing if if it is quite diffult to make walls of glass that you can take pictures through without any sort of um Sheen or reflection or anything but yeah the funny thing about the Space Needle was I was driving around in Seattle and I was driving through these neighborhoods that looked you know kind of I I would say they weren't run down per se but they certainly weren't newly freshened up and all of a sudden they're over the rooftop of this this junky looking building there's the Space Needle And it hadn't occurred to me at all that that the World's Fair where the World's Fair had taken place is is now basically this kind of rundown well aging neighborhood kind of thing there's there's an area right next to it that feels like 1940s Americana mhm that that's really cute and then there's really fancy areas around Queen Anne and then between that and downtown they're just it's completely being redeveloped yeah there was a lot of just sort of open stuff but they're yeah they're building that huge you know Big Dig project of U undergrounding the freeway and yeah so all that is just massively going on the other view of San of Seattle is a tower that is where actually I believe it's a tower it's like Columbia Center or something like that it's one of the tallest buildings in Seattle it's then I believe that's where apple is building a new or or they took over a lease of several floors of it I don't know exactly what they're doing there but probably trying to recruit people from Amazon and Microsoft can't imagine but it has a tremendous View and if you go to Seattle that's you should probably go up to that building and see the view from there because it's better than the space mind never mind Seattle let's go back to cerino for a minute okay okay handling the new devices you know clear I'm not going to ask you a whole lot about the Apple watch clearly the Apple watch is an Apple Watch Right it hasn't really changed form factor in any appreciable way I think it's it's not worthy that the form factor has not changed um the stainless steel watch feels about the same I I couldn't really feel a difference between it and the the series zero that I have the original one um and the ceramic new versions I mean it's a new color uh the addition is it it may be actually a little bit heavier but it felt about the same to me when I was handling them yeah so they've put all this new technology in but it's kind of the same thing far factor I I think what we really want to talk about are iPhone 8 and 8 plus and iPhone 10 pick one go ahead and start well let's start with iPhone 8 and 8 plus um when you look at them on first glance you think oh this isn't really this is just a refresh of the seven which of course last time when the seven came out people were saying oh yeah the seven is not a totally different case so it's super boring and everyone's just going to fall asleep looking at it um but the seven had actually a lot of really crazy technology in it one for Apple you know other things other companies had done some of these things but you know the obvious things was that it's water waterproof or water resistant and dust resistant I have enjoyed that so much that you don't have to worry about it getting slightly wet you can also take pictures underwater and all summer I've been taking pictures I have to do a story on this of what how much much of an enabling technology it is to be able to go and take pictures where water isn't an issue that's a really big feature and other companies have done some waterproofing Samsung did some waterproofing that you know didn't really pass the test but um Sony has been doing waterproofing for years but Apple's bringing it to the mainstream with I mean they did last year with iPhone 7 um and of course the other you know huge feature of the seven was the dual cameras on the back so iPhone 8 does the same kind of things um the the fit and finish has changed and now I thought the six and the Seven were kind of they were they almost kind of reached like this Pinnacle of like basicness like if you look at them they look nice but there's nothing they don't look incredible it isn't like it kind of reminds me a lot of the iPhone 3G 3G and 3GS where the first iPhone was like this really cool like stainless steel blob and then the first one was aluminum the first one looked like you know the shiny metal and um the mass Market 3G and 3GS were plastic and it was kind of like okay so this is what's necessary to get the price down to make it available to everybody but um it was just sort of like you know it's like an okay design it's like yeah this works it doesn't have the same kind of like cool feel like a temperature cool I mean being piece of metal in your hand it was now this kind of sort of practical plastic and when iPhone 4 came out it was like wow this is like what Steve Jobs described as being like the design of a Leica camera and it felt amazing again and that kind of went on the you know the five which is sort of like fancier and had this kind of gleaming camper Edge and that didn't change until the six and the six six plus and seven have all had this kind of same look of just being like super streamlined it looks like a Airstream trailer or something you know it's just kind of beautifully minimal that you put in the case anyway and they're very nice and and the differentiation has been kind of a finish on the outside you can get the product red one you can get the jet black or something like that with the eight what's changed is they have a functional glass back that allows you to do um the wireless charging but it also gives it a totally different sort of look because you have the the the edge that is stainless steel on the on the 10 and I believe it's aluminum on the eight and 8 plus yeah uh is chromy you know shiny and the back whether it's white or white or black um and they have the Gold version on the eight uh is because it's beyond underneath glass is kind of like a frosted glass like very shiny it's kind of like jet jet black but covered in glass and then you have color options so it is a very distinctive phone although a lot of that distinctiveness is going to be um obscured if you put it in a typical case so that's the appearance the feeling of it um it's kind of kind of feels the same when you when something looks different it also has even if it feels the same it it kind of conveys a different feel um I didn't notice that it felt colder because it was glass but um it's it has like an attractiveness to it it has kind of a flare where the previous models were just sort of like here's a phone that you're going to put in a case yeah should people be concerned about breaking the glass do you think yeah I think the front and the back are both something that if you drop it hard enough you're going to crack it and if you look around there's a lot of people with crack screens I have to keep saying though I've had an iPhone now for 10 years and I have never broke the screen and I have dropped them many times sometimes on the corner sometimes flat on concrete um sometimes across you know Stone stairs and I've never broke the screen but when you you've done that you've always had it in a case with a screen protector of some kind yes no I actually I've only used a case kind of recently I've dropped all kinds of naked iPhones all the time on hard Services tile a lot and I've never broke the screen interesting but I see a lot of people who have broken screens I mean like almost all my friends have broken phone screens sole said this is this is a you know more strengthened glass they keep making advances and I mean it's actually their supplier Corning probably uh that's you know developing better and better glass for the front and the back so uh you know we don't have any data on how much more resistant it is but yeah I would definitely say this is a expensive device you would handle it with care and probably put it in a case although having it in a case also changes the feel of it I have Apple's leather case M that makes it feel makes it feel thicker but it it makes it feel a lot more secure and I have actually dropped it in the case and I'm sure the case has saved it a couple times more recently that I I don't even have a Nick on it yeah I've I've known people who've been in both camps I've known people who said Apple intended this device to be held like this they they intended to be without a case you should carry it without a case um the the alternative point of view that I subscribe to is this thing would cost several hundred up to $1,000 to replace I darn well better protect it with you know the the cheap piece of plastic that I use or whatever it is it is a lot Slimmer the the whole like 66 S7 has been it feels super slim when you don't have a case on it it feels nice however um it's also kind of slippery and unlike previous models like the four and the five it doesn't have a flat Edge so you can't can't stand on the edge and uh they're actually so big now you probably wouldn't want to have it standing up on end but and of course having a round rounded Edge makes them feel smaller so in many cases the eight is not changing radically about the case the appearance has changed yeah what about the stainless steel part of the iPhone 10 uh I didn't notice that it felt really different in fact I I thought they were both using the same I was kind of surprised like wow they're both stainless steel um it is a different type of construction instead of having sort of like an outside shell with everything inside of it that the 66 S7 has been it has this appearance of like I said more like the four where you have glass panels on either side and then this metal rim although the edge of the 8 and 10 is so smooth you can't feel it I mean you can see that there's different materials there's really it's a sandwich but when you feel it it it feels like a seven it's smooth all the way around you cannot feel the edge that's a big improvement over the six and sixs construction pretty incredible um yeah like I said you look at it and you can see that it's a sandwich but when you feel it it's it feels like how do they build this because it looks like it's all crafted out of the same thing and especially with the tin you have that feeling of where does the screen end and where does the it's kind of like where does the software end and where does the hardware start um it's just a smooth gradient of integration the other the other obvious big difference between the 10 and the 88 plus is that the display on the tin is OLED and it's actually curved in the body of it so the screen goes right to the edge and it goes right into the corners and surrounds the Notch and there's kind of two modes for you're watching video you can either have it playing video and because the front of both colors with the white and the Black version of the Tim is black uh it kind of hides the notch when you have playing in as an inset rectangle where you see every pixel of the movie and if you double tap on it when you're playing it expands so that the corners the the corners of the movie are actually cut off and also the notch is cut out but I like that I've heard a lot of people complaining about it um but when you're watching a movie and you double tap it and it just takes over the whole screen it's kind of an incredible experience I mean it feels like it's just doing as much as it can and even though there is a you know there is this Notch of of the true that dep sensor array and the camera and stuff it kind of becomes invisible I mean you note it but it kind of goes away with video and of course it changes depending on what you're watching I suppose but the movies that I the movie clips that I saw uh were a mix of light and dark sort of things and after a couple seconds I didn't feel like I saw the notch now in apps it's a little bit different because you're looking at a static UI and I think there's a really big difference you know most people that are looking at this Notch situation are seeing screen captures or uh the an image from the um xcode emulator which shows what it would look like in sort of a picture with you see the whole phone there but that's a different experience when you actually have the phone in your hand you don't see animations you don't see uh Transitions and things like that when you're looking at a web page of a static image and so the of using apps where you have the little ears going up and pulling down from the corner it is a different experience and I when I look at some of those pictures I think oh yeah I wouldn't like that if I just saw this picture but I've handled it and when you have the phone in your hand and you pull down from the corner the top right corner you're pulling it down from the ear where the kind of Hardware related sensors are you know the signal meter and the battery indicator you pull down from there and it's very intuitive that that's where control senser should be be pulled down from because that's the kind of stuff that you're looking for if you pull it down from any other Corner the middle for the the left side you get notifications so that's much more control center is only the upper right is that it or is it yeah so it distinguishes between whether you start pulling down from the top right ear where like I said the battery indicator is you pull out from that you get Control Center and the you know Hardware related settings if you pull it down from just the top or the the other corner you get the typical thing that you get when you pull down from iOS device is your notifications so it's a clever way of sort of using those notches to convey some information what what do you think about reachability and reachability uh not being present on iPhone 10 so I've been using the 6s plus and 7 plus for the last couple years almost exclusively and I have very rarely ever used reachability the screen is huge you almost have to use two hands to use it I mean it's there's a lot of times where you know I keep saying I have huge hands and I still cannot reach the top of the screen in many cases but reachability doesn't seem to you know I get the idea and it's it may work for some people but typically when I use reachability it's accidental like I've bumped the home button too many times and the screen comes halfway down and I'm like how do I get it back up and I can't flick it back up with my hand and you have to remember oh yeah you hit it again with your thumb on the home button to get it back to where you wanted it but it's it's kind of a feature that you can sort of use if you remember to use it but it's it's not quite as intuitive to use or dismiss as as I would like so I don't really use it a lot so the fact that it's gone is kind of like H whatever I mean it's not gone on the eight I believe it's still working on the eight but on the 10 um first of all it's not as wide as the plus it is a taller screen but um the the width is pretty consistent with the regular you know this the the regular energy or the seven or the eight device yeah and for developers it's actually considered a compact width profile device so it actually works even though it has a bigger screen the screen is actually it's more pixels than the plus but the way that it's uh the orientation and just kind of the device and everything about it uh it it has more of the behavior of a standard iPhone 8 so it when you rotate the device to landscape H you don't get a landscape home screen or springboard right um I have to think about that I don't remember I don't remember that happening okay you when you open up mail for example you don't get a split screen like you would on the the plus device do you I think when I when I was using it it was configured I don't know if it's cuz the plush you can configure either way you can have it work sort of like a big um standard phone or you can use the pixels to have like a wider keyboard and the additional panels in mail things like that um I I don't think that's how the the tin works I think the tin is more like a standard iPhone but with just more pixels and because it's wider um it's it behaves a little bit differently um I even with the plus models I don't usually browse the web in wide mode just because I don't think if I ever if I ever do that and a number of times I thought it would be smart for Apple to use to really make use of the plus to be more like a hip top or you know like the danger phones where it's kind of like a you hold it in sort of a horizontal orientation but I Apple's never done that and it's never really caught on I mean when you're browsing the web even though it gives you a much wider display it's more like an iPad width but it it's not as functional because you don't have as much height so I don't think there's very many people at all that use even the Plus in horizontal mode and with the 10 when you put in in horizontal mode you do get a wider browser but again it's because it's a little bit narrower than the plus you're seeing less content so again the iPhone is primarily designed to be held vertically in fact I usually have vertical lock you use orientation lock right because it's actually sort of annoying like if you're you know lounging on the couch or something it keeps flipping back and forth so you just lock it and I find that there's not a lot of situations where I want to unlock it and use it in wide so that you know my initial impression that the plus phones should be wide doesn't hasn't really materialized there are some apps that do wide and and they work that way but I think the iPhone 10 shows that Apple's intent is a like I just wrote about they're getting rid of the home button on purpose mhm and they've spent a lot of time thinking about it isn't just like hey let's change things arbitrarily it's this is what we've been working on of how to get rid of the home button and how we we've been speculating on this podcast for the past three years about what it would be to get rid of the home button right and they've been thinking about it for at least that long and the home button is really a defining it was the definition of the original phone it was like way to go between apps and then it kept layering on more and more stuff you know Touch ID a few years ago uh changed it dramatically and then of course Apple pay and um there are some accessibility things that are attached to the button that is also a problem for some people some people don't have the motor skills to hit the button um was that Todd stable field that gave the presentation WWDC he was saying how wonderful it was to see Siri you know he's a paraplegic and how wonderful it was to see the voice recognition taking off and then hitting the sudden realization that oh man it still means you have to hit a button to use it um but Apple's kind of worked around that with hey Siri and having other devices that you can invoke what the home button does in a different way if for people who have motor issues that a button doesn't work for them so I don't think that's a problem for accessibility people we have to talk to some people that have that as their first experience but um there's it it just seems like such an essential definition of the iPhone in fact when you look on on Apple's website like I took that little graphic of how Apple depicts the various different iPhone models iPhone has been this rectangle with the rectangle inside of it and a circle with a home button and that is what iPhone means on a kind of iconic level and with iPhone x that is all G iPhone 10 that's gone to where it's now a rectangle with a slight Notch at the top and that's the new definition of of what an iPhone is absolutely so how would you say that your opinions have changed since um since you saw it a couple days ago you've had some time to think about it sort of digest your impressions what what do you think um has have you you reconsidered any of your initial Impressions or or what have you arrived at well thinking about the amount of work when you see a new product whether it's from Apple or anybody else I mean when you see a new product you start judging the things that you think are missing or you you realize the things that are obviously different and there's a lot of things that you don't realize how much went into building that or the decisions behind it and giving some thought to to how much effort and really what a big deal it is for iPhone 10 to not just move to a different uh slightly different um taller narrower display that with less of a margin around the outsides the bezel and losing the home button but there's really a rethinking of everything about how the phone works and there's a tremendous amount of effort that's been put into that and a lot of thought and so having been been writing about these things and and giving it some extra kind of rumination time to think uh it's kind of a new appreciation of how much thought has gone into a lot of these details and there are some things that are still remaining for example web pages and apps how do they use the full screen of the phone um I don't think there's a lot of apps that are going to be bothered by losing corners but that is potentially a thing and also having a notch if if your if your app assumes that text can go to both in of the thing of the screen when you're in the wide orientation you have to think about well how do I do that does my app only use the safe fairy in the middle or do I make some extra use of the you know so it's not a something that is going to look terrible I don't think but um it's definitely something for developers to think about in terms of how they want their app to be seen and really when you when you take advantage of the the ears on one side around the notch in novel ways you can come up with things that you know make a lot of sense and are distinctive and make your your app feel modern and um up to dat so what do you think people should know what do you think what's the question that people should ask that they don't know to ask right now about these new devices and how would you answer it what's the question that they don't know to ask yeah I mean there people are still people are still trying to figure out do they like the notch do they not like the notch are they going to miss the home button what should they really buy and and I see people waffling between buying an iPhone iPhone 10 or buying an iPhone 8 or even in some cases saying you know what forget all of this I'm just going to buy it at seven now that the price has dropped so what's your your feeling what should people be aware of that that they might not have picked up on well first of all that those things are not new we've always had people looking at the latest iPhone that's released and and saying oh do I need these features do I want to pay the premium for the latest things that Apple can come up with or do I want to take advantage of the fact that last year's phone is now cheaper or do I want to take advantage of the fact that I can get you know a refurbished phone or you know somebody's hand me down for much less so I think the real issue for most people is how how fancy do they want to be and for a lot of iPhone users you know if if you don't want to be fancy maybe you're not using an iPhone but for it's kind of incredible because other makers don't have this situation the majority every year the majority of the phones that Apple sold were its best and that happened even you know there was some talk when the iPhone 6 or the iPhone 5 s and 5c were were outlined together that you know people were kind of gravitating towards cheaper phones and the 5c was going to playcate the masses where the 5S was going to be just for people who thought a 64-bit chip was important and that turned out to be a false assumption uh for the public and even Apple um it certainly knew that the 5S was going to be a big seller but it that the product mix was a little different than it expected it was Apple sold more of the the fanciest model that it had and part of that was for Touch ID and I think coming into the T I think a lot of people although the tin is far more expensive than a phone has ever been before for an entry level phone and it you know it's $1,000 and then it goes up if you want more more storage so it is a pretty pretty high pricing tier that some people are just not going to you know I don't have the money to do that uh but the other thing is people pay so much money for data service that if you're paying you know close to $100 a month for data service you're paying more for service than you are for a phone every year so even $1,000 phone is you know it's 80 something a month or it's a couple dollars a day so there's a lot of people that don't have very much money that drink more booze or coffee or cigarettes than $2 a day so I don't think it's something that's out of the bre of people who really want it and the a phone is a little bit different than other fancy things like a stereo or a you know other things that have been sort of luxurious Electronics or you know personal possessions in the past and that we use our phones all the time they are essential for not only connecting with other people but accessing information and because you use it all the time it's you know one of the big things for that has been the the key success for apple is that phones are so essential that people are willing to pay more than they've paid for other things in the past you know I think back when I was a kid you know getting a Sony Disc man or something was considered sort of a luxurious purchase and it was you know a few hundred when the iPad iPod first came out it was you know this is sort of a fancy thing that you're listening to music but because you're experiencing it on on a regular basis it was like yeah this is something that I want to spend money on because it makes me happy all the time and phone is just like that Beyond because a it's how you connect with people it um it sets you apart in terms of kind of showing what you like you know it's it's kind of thing when people when you text somebody and they have a green bubble you think oh this person doesn't care about technology this this person has a basic phone uh this person got sold to Samsung I yeah when somebody pulls out a phone and it's like some whack android model you think I don't know what you think but you know it's you think you could have bought an iPhone for the amount of money you bought that for but but it's okay to be different I get these uh I get advertisements in my email all the time right I'm I'm sure that tons of people do get these kinds of messages and one of them this morning came with the subject line that that the iPhone was too expensive and they were offering like you say some some absurd sort of unusual Android phone and I uh I think I deleted the email promptly but it was it was very much that that kind of a pitch I think it's not only that people are willing to pay more for a phone because you use it all the time and it's so intrical to your experience but also the cost of phones are more obscured certainly in the United States where there's kind of been history of carrier subsidized phones but also um just in the fact that you can now uh in a variety of territories just do this upgrade program where it's basically like leasing a phone and so it becomes sort of a fixed expense instead of a huge one time splurge and so unless you're the kind of person that can't manage to hold on to a phone without breaking or losing it every 3 months it's not a huge expense to get this like super expensive iPhone 10 um and one of one of my favorite analysts um I coted him in the article at the end he just tweeted out saying how Apple suppliers appear to be targeting $0 a 50 million iPhone 10 a supply for people to buy in the second half of 2017 and I ask is this you mean like the second half of fiscal 2017 ending in like March he's like no the end of this year if Apple sells anywhere close to 40 million phones that means half the iPhones that they sell this this winter are going to be iPhone 10 that is incredible it's already I already keep repeating this idea that it's incredible that Apple's average selling price for iPhones is around $700 it's been consistently above $650 for a long time and now they're jumping I mean jumping to $1,000 that's a pretty big price jump and they're doing it with pretty impressive technology I mean this face unlock and all the the cool things you can do with a depth sensor in the front that is incredible and other companies have you know tried to do that before um primesense itself was selling peripheral you would attached to a laptop to the um I can't think of the brand name for it but there's a depth sensor that use the same kind of Technology it's kind of like the connect for Xbox video games uh and Google had its own version for Tango that was kind of a sort of an experimental thing that that uh you could either plug in the back of a developer tablet or there's a couple tablets like I think Lenovo came out with one last fall or last winter that had the structure sensor built into it but it was all very beta if you listen to the reviews it was just sort of like this half-baked sort of you know here's kind of some potential because that's what Google does they come out with stuff and they say here's a sort of platform that we've kind of finished and we want you to show us what you're going to do with it Apple's a little bit different in that everything they do is also a platform and they want third parties to take it and run with it but they come out with their own very practical application of that technology and for iPhone 10 and the structure sensor the primary obvious thing is Face Unlock which people are going to be using all the time that has to work if it doesn't work well people are you know this is going to be a problem um and additionally there's a lot of things that I can do with a um structure sensor can tell if you're looking at the phone or if it's okay to shut off the screen because it can look at your face and say hey are you looking at me it's okay okay there's a little bit of weirdness that people have in terms of Face Unlock and they're like thinking oh I don't want this thing looking at me all the time looking at my face and should I feel self-conscious it's like folks it's the machine it's like when you go into the toilet and there's like a sensor behind the toilet it's like checking out if you're finished or not it's like gonna flush the toilet for you it's a not something you have to be self-conscious about because it is a machine it's not sending pictures of you up to you know the main office or putting them on the cloud for someone to exploit it's something that we've accepted for several years now that it's handy to have a way for us not to have to handle the the fixtures in a public bathroom and it's really not that much of a stretch to say here's one on my phone that is also because it comes from Apple we know that it's not sending stuff up to the cloud or analyzing stuff and selling our profile to sell better advertisements it's being used to unlock our phone and the customer is us and that's why we're paying for it we're paying a premium for it but it's not only really handy for Face Unlock but it also does other cool features and enables things like portrait mode selfies where you can dynamically create a depth map of your pictures and group shots when they're pointed at you and you can do after the fact lighting shots and third parties will also be able to tap into this depth API to do really cool things and you know the most obvious thing was uh Snapchat right now kids love Snapchat and they love kind of the simple you know they're kind of sophisticated filters but being able to augment dog ears on you or something I kind of hate that but the with a structure sensor it's not just people who are 12 it's young adults it's like everyone's picture on the internet now has those stupid dog oh goodness but people like that and I think a big part of it is like we mentioned regarding FaceTime is that it's sort of it's not anonymizing but it's um it takes away some of the self-consciousness because it can like you know beautify your face and you know hide elements of your hair isn't perfect it sort of kind of blurs it out and puts a crown of flowers on it or something like that and that's why it appeals to kids and that taken on a whole new level the fact that you can on an iPhone 10 you have the technology to put a skin type mask on that's like really close to your face and it's not just sort of an effect but it's like a an augmentation of your reality and how you repr yourself that's that's a simple obvious example there's going to be so much more that developers come up with and using that depth sensor to do really cool things and now you can do it in both directions um the the augmented reality stuff that they showed off um it's it's a whole new depth literally of the iOS apis so developers have been doing all kinds of cool stuff on just a you know 2D bit map of a display now you can incorporate you can mix interactive graphics with what the camera is actually seeing and you have you're not just putting you're not just kind of gen locking graphics and video together but the camera understands the depth that understands what's out there and so you can have realistic lighting effects depending on how bright the scene is and you can have an interaction between services like with arkit games where you have a whole kind of video game it's sort of unfurling in 3D virtually sort of created on top of a table where characters kind of fall off the side of it kind of thing and it's a really new world of mixing the reality world of the camera with the constructed world of Graphics that we're already pretty good at so there's going to be some really cool stuff that comes out of this cool well thank you so much for for making time to speak with us again we're going to look for that really cool stuff coming soon where can we find you on the internet I'm writing for Apple Insider um I'm writing up a new thing on the the AR kit app for iPad that they built for exclusively for the the new Visitor Center that's coming online next to Apple Park so if you go to California I'll have to try this thing out but I get some pictures was kind of difficult to take but um got some pictures of how it works it's really cool kind of a sense of what ER can do in the real world um but Apple Insider of course and then also I'm on Twitter at Daniel aaronn yeah we're on these podcasts occasionally fantastic thank you so much and if you enjoyed this podcast please feel free to go to iTunes and leave us a positive review we always like hearing from you and you can tweet me at V marks or send us an email we love getting list your questions come back join us next week we'll have more this has been another episode of the Apple Insider podcastyou're listening to the Apple Insider podcast welcome to episode 138 of the Apple Insider podcast I'm your host Victor marks and joining me as editor and chief Neil Hughes Victor how are you you know it's been a whirlwind of a week it really has um we've we've seen these devices launched we've seen a lot of announcements we've seen a lot of people have different concern concerns about them and trying to figure out which is the device for them uh and trying to understand how they're different how they're going to work and and really what's what's both price point and and features that people need right and one of the comments that I was reading about in our forums said you know that that it used to be simple it used to be that you had the four quadrant Matrix which everyone loves to refer to whenever talk about product line discussions and and that this is not that Simplicity kind of thing that that there there's an iPhone SE there's a 6S and a 6S plus there's the S and S plus there's the 8 and eight plus and then also there's the 10 so that's five different major categories each with their own storage divisions among them yeah this this is one of those things where people are complaining about it and I'm not really sure why uh because I think everything has a legitimate reason to exist on the market as it is and this is a clear strateg this is not just some some scattershot approach that apple is taking this is a clear strategy that they've been doing to push more in both directions lowend and highend we've talked about this many times keep Legacy products on the market or use Legacy Parts as they did uh with the new entry level iPad earlier this year to hit lower price points than they ever have so this time around iPhone SE drops at $350 uh you can get a iPhone 6S for $450 um you know they're they're at these $100 price increments going forward and you can see why people would want certain products so for example you want a smaller phone you get the iPhone se you want a bigger phone with a headphone jack you can get an iPhone 6s you only want 32 gigs of storage you don't need any more than that um you can get an iPhone 7 um and then you want the latest and greatest um that's available now you can get an iPhone 8 and then you really want what's coming next then you wait until November and get an iPhone 10 uh I think that there's a legitimate case for each product to exist uh and that's very important especially in a point where uh you know the thousand of the iPhone 10 is is kind of controversial in some circles I think having the phones available at so many prices including the low $350 price point for a really great phone that can do AR kit and everything else um is really really uh impressive I think that Apple's phone lineup is more robust and and uh more consumer friendly now than it ever has been and Apple's never been afraid to cannibalize themselves that was something that Tim Cook said way back in I want to say 2011 right none of these products you know the the thing that happened in 1996 and 97 when jobs came in and slashed the uh the the huge number of products that he did to arrive at the quadrant Matrix yeah was that there were a lot of products that they were working on that weren't making any money right here in this lineup all of these products are making money yeah it's it's hard for people to understand like they they try to equate the Mac a lot of times with the iPhone and they're just not the same apple is going to sell like 80 million iPhones in a single quarter this fall think about that number it would take like 12 years of 15 years of Max sales to reach that number you know like if you're comparing the iPhone a specific iPhone model to a specific Mac model you know it's not even close the lowest selling iPhone is still outperforming the Mac so um it's the it's in Apple's best interest to hit all those price points and address all those segments because there are users out there who want different who have different needs for these devices and the technology has gotten so good and the devices are so mature that there are a lot of users that aren't going to care about certain features or don't want certain things you know I had a friend reached out to me the other day and he said am I crazy for wanting the iPhone 8 more than the iPhone 10 and I said no you're not because a lot of people are going to want the home button they don't see the need for the edge to edge screen they don't want the the the cost of it and that was the genius stroke that Apple did in all this is by introducing these three new phones and keeping around the seven and keep around the 6s and keep around the se you know the the lineup is more robust than ever and and it's a good thing for consumers now was your friend talking about the 8 plus or the eight he didn't say I I I didn't ask but uh you know maybe I think that there's some people who just are are afraid of the loss of the home button um and I think that for that reason I delved in this on the forums with some of our readers the other day and we were talking about it some people were saying oh this will be the the iPhone 8 will be the last iPhone with a home button and I said there's no way there's no way because first of all uh OLED panels cost too much the edgo edge technology um costs too much apple can't replace the entire lineup with it and they're going to have to introduce new phones with home buttons and that's not even including the people who will prefer a home button and want to have a home button you have to look at the way that Apple did with uh the iPod in the 2000s um to really see how they addressed different markets and different needs for the product s um the iPhone certainly hasn't changed as much in terms of the form factor but in The Last 5 Years uh the iPhone has changed a lot we went from 3.5 in to 4 in then 4 in to 4.7 and 5.5 in and now we're at 5.8 in so you have these different form factors different sizes different different um designs that accomplish different goals now you said two things there that the see I think we're in a a longer transition to a series of devices that don't have the home button I I think that clearly it makes sense for the SE to live on and for it to be the affordable device that uses the affordable screen that has the home button yeah but you know on a longer timeline the future is a device that doesn't have a home button I I agree it just it's not a fast transition like the move to lightning was I think this is a a 2 to three kind of Trad transition I think it might even be longer than that it it could be but you know the there there's there's sort of a push pull here right Apple wants to make a device that's accessible to everyone at every price point because they want to capture as many of these customers as they can right at the same time and and it's not just you know we we often and our listeners often think of this in terms of the market that they're listening in if you're in the US market you think of in terms of the US market but apple is a worldwide company and different countries with different uh earning levels and spending capabilities and different carrier plans right all of these things have impacts so the SE is the appropriate phone that could probably be a runaway device in one market where in another uh it sells less right right so there's there's that Push Pull and the other Push Pull is when Apple knows that something is the future it wants to deliver that future to to everyone in a consistent interface in a consistent way of interacting with something that that trying to accommodate both ways of doing something means that they they divide themselves a little bit thinner MH that that moving everyone to a future where everything is face ID where everything is is uh using these gestures is their path eventually right it's just going to take time technology wise user Behavior wise wi acceptance wise right and where we're at right now in that is that they've migrated us all to a place where all the devices in their lineup have a secure element and have authentication through it correct top to bottom including the Mac so so we're sort of at the beginning to midst step of this transition I would say yeah I think we need to get you know Touch ID on the 12-in MacBook um whether or not they do it a touch bar there um and I think you know that's really the last key piece of that transition um you know barring they could I mean now now that we have face ID do they have to put a touch bar in place or can they simply load up an IR projector and an IR camera into the screen frame right alongside the eyesight camera well that was another uh discussion I had with somebody on the forums yesterday we were talking about they were saying that they were they could see face ID coming to the Mac next um and that was not something that I agreed with I I see it coming I mean if you look look at the trajectory of touch ID uh it came to the i iPad first uh it take it took a while for Touch ID to come to the Mac it just came in 2016 less than a year ago at this point so um I I would imagine especially when going back to talk about about how we were talking about sales um and and the iPhone is just so much bigger than the Mac the iPad is you know about three times the size of the Mac uh in terms of quarterly sales so it would make sense for to come to the iPad first not only because it shares similarities with the iPhone and design and that sort of thing uh but the implementation and stuff uh if you look at the forward facing camera array um on the Mac it's never been as as advanced as it is on iOS devices um so I you know there were rumors um earlier this year that Apple could as soon as 2018 introduce a complete redesign of the iPad um kind of suggesting that it might get the same edgo Edge OLED uh take as the iPhone 10 I don't uh personally think that'll happen for a number of reasons including the limitations on OLED and the pure size or the cost of a panel of that size cost right yeah I mean you think about like the max you can spend on an iPad right now is like I think like $1,100 $150 maybe on the 12in uh iPad Pro 13-inch iPad Pro with the LTE uh I mean you're looking at like an entry level cost with a panel that size of oil of like $1,500 and the question becomes who other than me an insane person would spend $1,500 on an edgo edge olded iPad with uh face ID but um you know I I I I don't think that necessarily that transition is going to come next year but I think that we get there eventually um and I think that like you said it'll it'll come to the Mac um it'll come to Apple's entire product lineup and I I think that you know the iPhone 10 is a view of what Apple sees the future of computing and Technology takes time in addition to user acceptance and everything else uh but you know we'll we'll eventually get to a point where uh yeah I think the home button will be gone at some point uh but I don't see it happening anytime soon I would say it would take longer than five years could be and and that would just be I mean first of all the at some point the 6s is going out of the product line right that's that's not going to be maintained and released again next year I mean the the the the the headphone jack might keep it around longer in the lineup than you think you're you're right and it could do that based on government and institutional sales right where where with we saw with the iPad 2 you have to keep the model around longer to support the contracts well not just the iPad 2 I mean don't forget it wasn't until last uh July I believe it was Apple was still selling a 13-inch MacBook Pro with spinning disc drive think about that right that thing that was a could be for institutional or government sales right well I mean for whatever ever it's for I mean there's still a market for legacy technology like that people are very resistant to change and if apple is going to hold around a Mac for that long I think they're going to keep around an iPhone for that long now whether it becomes an upgraded SE and they say if you want a headphone jack get this model or they keep keep around the success or maybe even give it you know a A10 processor next year to keep it kind of somewhat up to date or something I would not be surprised if uh they have a low-end 4.7 in model with a headphone jack uh for either emerging market Mar or government or education or whatever you want to call it well so when you have a government contract the reason why I keep saying that is this when you have a a government or an education contract the contract tends to specify that you have to be able to provide service parts for service for and the device itself for so many number of years whether that's three years or five years um that you have to provide and that the device has to be both serviceable with parts so that they can't simply say sorry we don't have those parts anymore it also means that if they replace it it has to be replaced with one that is equivalent in Form and Function so if you have an iPhone 6 and you get it replaced it has to be with one a device that has the same functionality including the headphone jack and will fit whatever case or docking accessory or sled that they may have for it and I think that critics that would see and hear us talk about this and say oh that shows that Apple made a mistake by ditching the home headphone jack no it doesn't no it just means that they sold you know so many number of of successes to governments and we know that they do that right there was the because that came out yeah yeah most most apparently with the San ber shooting where the phone belongs to the county and this is also evidence of Apple saying that its products from two three years ago are still good enough to sell you know you hear these critics who say oh you know I don't need to upgrade my iPhone every year it's why do we have to put out a new iPhone every year is it really necessary well here is Apple really standing by its products over the course of years and saying this is still something that we're willing to stand by and sell to new customers and we think that IT addresses a different market so my kids discuss this with me all the time I I have children that are fascinated by what the life cycle is of product support don't ask that's that's what I've done raising these kids but you know the it came up because my wife has an iPhone 5 and as we all know iPhone 5 is 32-bit and has gone unsupported for iOS 11 so is just now ended of life ined useful life let's say and in terms of product support and so they they want to know you know what's going to go end of life next what's going to be unsupported next how long was the iPhone 5 supported for and we got I want to say a good uh What four years out of that device is that right yeah yeah and you would be hard pressed to find any other device made by any other manufacturer in the mobile space that provides software updates for that length of time time and the good news is by these devices sticking around and as part of the lineup it means that support is going to be extended even further for these devices because you look at now uh you know the entry-level iPad coming out with the A9 chip and they're probably going to sell it for at least two years before they upgrade it and they'll probably support it for at least two years after that you know look at the life cycle of the iPad 2 but that's that's good news for other A9 devices like the exactly exactly it extends over to all these other devices you know if you have the it doesn't point to good things for my iPhone 6 with the A8 chip but you know no it does not the the A8 is being left behind now because of AR kit and stuff like that but yeah I mean you you look at these Legacy devices and they still work very well and many of them are being still updated and I think that that is going to continue to extend because it's not necessarily the the level of innovation has slowed but the capabilities have become so strong that even a device from 2 three years ago four years ago uh is still a pretty powerful and capable device absolutely now face ID we touched on briefly here uh we we've talked about it on the show in the past and when we had Mike Worley on Mike posited that financial institutions were really on board with Touch ID and he was he was not positive that they would be as on board with face ID you've had some concerns about face ID also so in terms of authentication and and uh privacy and and things like that so having all of that in mind now that we've seen it announced has Apple addressed your concerns I I think they've adequately addressed Mike's in terms of of Apple pay but have they addressed yours I I think so I I was not despite what people listening and people in the comments think you know my my contrarian uh take on it was just meant for the purposes of discussion uh it was never meant to I'm not I'm not an apple cheerleader or or anything like that you know we try to cover the company as objectively um as we can we we are an independent Source on Apple and so I think it's healthy to go into an announcement like that with some level of skepticism because it's the onus is on Apple to justify why they would get rid of a proven technology like touch ID you know I heard from some friends of mine and read some comments of course U people who just don't like the fact that you know their use cases uh for logging into their phone are not going to work as well with face Ed as they do Touch ID uh I was talking to a woman the other day the pocket right yeah I was talking to a woman the other day who was saying that she's in meetings a lot and she will discreetly under a table uh unlock her phone with her finger and then just kind of peek down on the table but she never really looks at the camera and so being in a position to have to hold it up to your face at the right angle and stuff would not be convenient for her to to discretly log into her phone in which case she could just enter her passcode um but what this woman really needs is an Apple Watch well yeah depending on what you're looking to do I mean I guess if you're checking your Instagram it might not be as as good on your watch but fair I mean there's going to be use cases like that no matter what and we knew that going into it you know if you're if you're skiing and wearing a ski mask yes you cannot log in with face ID but you know what you're also wearing gloves so you can't log in with Touch ID so boohoo too bad um there are going to be situations where Touch ID would work better than face ID I think that overall face ID is going to be more convenient than Touch ID and more reliable uh you know I always am trying to unlock my phone when I'm leaving the gym and my hands are sweaty and then it doesn't work and then I get ENT my passcode and because I have a complex passcode it takes a while and it's like that's a that's a pain that annoys me and so I think for the key with security is it has to be convenient enough and good enough this is not some Fort Knox level of security this is consumer level stuff and I think that for the vast majority of people who use an iPhone they're going to prefer face ID over Touch ID and you and I have talked about this before there's even a unnecessary learning curve with Touch ID with people who press the home button and they and you got to break it through their head it's like don't press the home button just lay your finger on it just lay your finger on it and you know they even have when you do the setup Apple has to say no don't press the home button and they have to disable the functionality of the home button while you set it up to teach people how to do that that learning curve is gone with face ID it makes it easier of course now you have a learning curve of how to return to the home screen so that one step forward one step back in some respect and and and I want to say the the multitasking screen is the interesting one where you you start swiping up and then pause right that's that's the one that seemed a little awkward to me yeah apple has done some stuff to address it you know the the bar that you have to slide up uh is always going to be there um at the bottom of the screen mhm and uh they've also brought a Mac like feature over for multitasking where you can swipe left and right um and it'll quick switch between full screen apps on there um I think that they they did a pretty good job of it I'm not too concerned about the ditching of the home button um and I'm not too concerned about face ID but I think a lot of people will be um and that's why the aone exists now Senator Al Franken has has sent a message to Tim Cook asking him to address concerns about face ID's impact on consumer privacy and security yeah Franken on the Senate Judiciary Committee on privacy technology and law and he had a number of questions about the implementation of face ID particularly the how the information is created how its data structure is handled and what assurances are being given about protection of user data yeah I mean I don't want to get too political here I'll just say that Al Franken is doing his job and I don't have a problem with him questioning any new technology as a politician I wouldn't want him to just blindly trust a company I realize that people listening to this are Apple Fans and they'll go oh it has a secure enclave and blah blah blah blah blah but he is a US senator an elected official whose job it is is to ensure the uh privacy and safety of his constituents and citizens of the United States and so it's logical for him to want to get some answers on that and just because somebody asks questions doesn't mean that they're not going to be satisfied by the answers I don't think that anybody needs to read into this too much Al Franken did the exact same thing when Touch ID came out and he's done it with every other new technology that's been announced whenever Amazon has a new Echo out whenever um Google uh launches a new phone with new capabilities um he always puts out a press release and and we we get a copy of it and he asks these companies to explain their technology and to uh explain how they are protecting user privacy and I think it's a good thing that somebody like him is out there and keeping an eye on companies regardless of who they are well and that's exactly the reaction that he wants you to have it also makes him uh a good opportunity to send home a constituent letter talking about how Grady's doing on following up on these kinds of things well well that's politics yeah yeah the the part that I wanted to get to was that he he did ask Tim Cook how Apple will respond to law enforcement requests to access face print data or the face ID system itself which which of course was a big debate last year now what we do know is that in iOS 11 if you press the um the side button five times that it uh disables Touch ID or face ID yeah requiring the passcode to be entered yeah and have you tried that out Neil I I mean I I haven't I nobody's tried to rob me lately so well that you know of that I know of I just so it's it's nice to have I don't see myself you know when when I press the when I press that button five times it shows the slide to power off medical it the emergency SOS and cancel buttons and if I just say cancel at that moment and try and press the home to unlock touch ID is disabled it requires the uh the passcode at that point yeah yeah it's a nice it's one of those things you hope you never have to use like the medical emergency thing and all that but uh it's not like it hurts anybody by including it so yeah absolutely now one of the other things that we we published a quick story on is that the cost of Apple Care Plus is gone up right uh so the cost of Apple Care Plus was $129 it is now $149 for the iPhone 6s plus the 7 plus and the 8 plus um and for the iPhone 10 Apple Care Plus will now cost $199 am I wrong in presuming that it looks like these costs are tied to the screen size it certainly does look like it and that would make sense I think the screen is the most expensive component on these devices so and the uh the non-warranted screen prepars for the six and the SE the smaller size screens have gone to 129 up from 99 mhm the 6s and 7 have gone up from uh from 20 to 149 I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this no they're up $20 more rather I realize I'm going to jinx it by saying this but I've never broken an iPhone screen and I've never paid for Apple Care so in the event that I do break one of my iPhone screens in the in the future um the 130 plus a year or per phone at least that I have saved uh will probably I'll come out ahead in the end I think yeah I have I have paid for Apple Care on a number of phones and I'm I'm contemplating doing it again I have always thought about doing it and and in many cases gone for it because even if I don't crack the screen there's something very nice about in the second year of of use of the device because I don't change phones every year being able to walk in and say I have Apple Care Plus uh my battery life is reduced because I'm in the second year of using the device uh could you please take a look at it and they they hand me a fresh device without any questions yeah that that is nice I did deal with some haggling at the Apple Store a couple months ago because my iPhone SE was giving me problems and then finally after I continued to have problems they agreed to take the phone apart to see if there was any damage internally and I guess their machine that was taking the phone apart somehow ripped the uh uh the battery cable and trying to remove the battery so they just ended up giving me a new phone anyhow right and I've never had to do any of that sort of haggling or hoping that that something would cause that to work I just walk in and say I purchased Apple Care Plus help me out and they do yeah yeah they were like doing Diagnostics and they're saying oh your your battery looks fine from our tests and it's like well you're not using it and seeing that it just randomly drops from 70% to 20% so right and and so one of the things that they do is that they have Diagnostics that they can pull out of the lightning cable when they connect they show me all that and they show that the battery is it's not just whether or not the battery is working properly at its Mo maximum capacity it's is the battery degrading over time within our expectations yeah they can actually pull up a chart that shows your use over the last you know seven days or whatever and it shows spikes and and drops and power and stuff right but you know we know that batteries age over time and have less capacity over time and over overcharge cycles and they can say well the battery is at this point in its life cycle we think that it should be about there if it's about where we think it should be then that's still normal my my lack of Need For Apple Care is why I've never used the iPhone upgrade program um but I always tell people if you are buying Apple Care then you should just do the upgrade program because it's just an interest free loan over two years you know it's not like you're paying anything extra but if you're not getting Apple Care then it may not be the best deal because that's $130 sacked on so yes well now it's $150 $150 tacked on there you go there you are um so so we we do this extensively right we talked through all the rumors leading up to this phone so help me out here who was right and who was wrong because we've tried to give weight to these along the way and say you know we think the ones that come from this analyst tend to be more correct we think the ones that come from this Source are questionable but we're telling them about you telling you about them anyway so so help me out can we evaluate and say and score these a little bit yeah you know the the every year the discussion of the rumors builds a little more and and people get a little more critical of certain sources and we've talked a lot on this podcast about how Ming quo is everybody's kind of love him or hate him analyst um and I have repeatedly said that the guy gets more right than anybody else and I stand by that and uh you know this year was a little different because of the iOS 11 GM leak that took place last week uh before the Apple event um we basically knew every thing um it broke on a Friday night and I was working until 3:00 in the morning covering all that stuff but prior to that uh most of the stuff that we knew about the iPhone 10 and iPhone 8 was uh leaked by Ming quo now that is not to say the guy has a perfect track record he does not far far from it um he got a few key things wrong so you know we wrote a story kind of running through all the rumors and of course it focused on Ming quo and the reason it focused on him is because he reported the most stuff and he said uh the biggest miss that he had I think was uh saying that the iPhone 10 would launch alongside the iPhone 8 and by the way it takes a lot of concentration for me to not say iPhone x when I read it I even though I said iPhone you you and everyone else I I never said OS X I always said OS 10 but for some reason iPhone 10 doesn't seem doesn't read as well anyhow uh I yeah he said it was going to launch alongside the iPhone 8 uh on September 22nd and it is not it's launching much later it's launching in November he also said it was going to come in three colors there were leaked uh gold Shades that ended up not panning out uh that was probably something circling around the supply chain that Apple decided not to do um he did nail the screen size way before anybody else I think it was March of 2016 he said it was going to be a 5.8 inch screen but he did have this weird diversion where for a while he was saying that the screen was going to have a dedicated function area that was a separate OLED panel not accessible to apps he was completely wrong on that and all of the people that draw mockups drew that as sort of a dock exactly as we saw on the iPad we don't have yeah and he uh also uh kind of waffled on whether or not the iPhone 10 would have Touch ID he was saying that Apple was going to have it in there and then he said they were trying to but it wasn't working out and there were technical challenges so I mean he did get some stuff wrong um in a big way I the the my that I really found the most funny was he said just a couple weeks ago really uh that the Apple Watch series 3 with cellular may not support voice calls at launch and his Logic for that was that a lot of carriers don't do voiceover LTE and so therefore wouldn't it wouldn't make sense to have it on the on the watch uh and then Apple of course at this week's event did a voice call demo with a woman doing standup paddle boarding in California so not just any random woman this was a woman who was on the Apple watch team right so uh obviously way wrong on that prediction as well but uh if you go down the list uh like I said the 5.8 in OLED um he was the first to report on that uh when rumors of the edgo edge iPhone 10 first started leaking people were thinking that it was going to supplant the iPhone plus model he was the first to say that they would actually be two separate models he was right on that uh he predicted the ,000 starting price back in February of this year um he was the one that said that the Dual lens camera would remain exclusive to the iPhone 8 plus this year and the 4.7in model uh would still have a single lens he was the first one to say that all the phones would have glass backs he was the first one to say that all the phones coming out this year would support wireless charging he was the first one to say that they would have fast charging via the lightning Port if you got the USBC to lightning cable um he also reported the day of the event that Apple did not would not be selling its own wireless chargers at the launch of the devices this year and that it would uh and that they would not launch until next year um so he by far got the most right now was was he perfect no uh but he had a better battering average than pretty much everybody else out there despite his misses and he took a lot more swings than everybody else too so uh you know people in the comments will say oh he's overrated I could have guessed this stuff you're telling me that you would have guessed a 5.8 inch LED screen back in March of of 2016 and then stood by it for the next year and a half or known that all the phones were going to get wireless charging when it was thinking that that was just you know the conventional wisdom was that maybe they would put it in the iPhone 10 you know the guy got most of it right um outside of that you know Apple itself leaked a ton of stuff the iOS GM uh iOS 11 GM that came out and the developers Steven trotton Smith and Gil Herme I'm pronouncing his name wrong I'm sure Rambo GM G gam Rambo um those guys work their butts off to get uh um uh all that information that came out within the last week even before that with the homepod leak um the Japanese site Mac otakara um had some pretty good Scoops that nobody else had uh they predicted the later iPhone launch they said that both the black and white models would have a black bezel on the front um Bloomberg and Mark Gman there had some decent Scoops but all of them were like later than everybody else so you know they were they would say oh yeah um it's going to have a stainless steel frame with the glass front and back and it's like well mingi already reported that like six months earlier or um you know face ID is going to replace Touch ID but that was after the rumors had already started saying that uh the biggest things that they had at Bloomberg were software related um they explained that there wouldn't be a virtual home button that there would be a new gesture to return to the home screen um and also that Apple would not be hiding the notch at the top of the screen and and those were good Scoops that came with the last few weeks so Bloomberg was pretty reliable even though that they weren't first and I didn't really want to pick on anybody else but I know that uh John grber of Daring Fireball had made a few predictions this year here um that were completely off uh he he thought that the iPhone 10 would be called iPhone x that wasn't any sort of inside information but that was his speculation he was completely wrong um then he did have a source that told him the Apple Watch series 3 would have a all new form factor and aside from that ugly ugly ugly ugly Red Dot on the crown the watch looks exactly the same so he was I get a sense that you don't like the Red Dot of the LT version I I don't understand why they put that on there I don't know why it exists I mean I guess if you're Petty enough that you really want people to know that you have an LTE version of the watch that's fine but it's like it's on every model it's on the stainless steel one it's on the ceramic one and it's like who wants this dot but hold on there is a huge problem es both in the ordering of devices especially from a retailer other than Apple or buying secondhand knowing what products you have and what stops you from putting a red sticker on your Apple watch first Generation Well you you should be able to tell the difference between a red sticker and the one that Apple's put on in manufacturing I think it's I think it's uglier in sin I can I cannot believe that they did that look I trying to explain the difference between a series zero or a first version of the Apple watch and a series 1 is hard enough right especially when they both look the same the same is true of of you know you you're trying to buy an Apple Watch and you trying figure out is I'm I buying the series one or the series 2 and you have to look at the model number to determine it having something anything visually that differentiates it becomes helpful I understand that that's not the one you would have chosen but it's so so difficult and and it's all right years ago I placed an order for an iPod touch and I was ordering the third generation iPod Touch because I had a need for the the different processor that was inside it to be able to run applications and I ended up with three second generation iPad touches because each time I ordered a third generation I got shipped a second gen because no one could tell the difference and the same thing is true of the watch it's really hard to figure out which version you have when they all look identical I get it I get the problem I I get that you don't like the Red Dot but there's something reassuring to be a about being able to tell very easily which one you're looking at it is unsightly now I run into the same problem because trying to determine am I looking at the series 3 with GPS or am I looking at a series 2 to is going to be just as difficult yeah but it's it's a problem well there is a company that reached out to me a couple weeks ago that I kept on my radar I'm going to write an article about this this week so keep your eye out for it if it isn't already live by the time people listen to this um a company called watch dots that's been around since the first uh Apple watch came out and they sell stickers that match the colors of the bands that Apple sells that you stick onto the digital crown and to the side button and for 10 bucks you get these little these little decals and I plan on getting a black dot to put over the stupid ugly Red Dot on this watch because I I I i' love everything about the Apple Watch series 3 the Apple Watch series 3 is amazing I love the fact that it works with apple music and it's going to work with third party apps and give you this connectivity I don't like the fact that it cost $10 a month with carriers but um yeah everything about it is great why why did they put this red dot on there it's so ugly I I can't begin to tell you why they chose the Red Dot it's so bad when that first leaked as part of the Iowa Johnny when Johnny I comes out of his cave every six months and sees his shadow he makes a change to a product and this was the product you got I when the iOS 11 GM leaked last week um and it showed that red dot I was just trying to think I'm like why would they do this and I was thinking like maybe maybe it's actually like a like a light up thing and like that's how you know you have a notification but that you're not you wouldn't be able to look at the digital Crown cuz on the side I was like I was trying to like come up with a reason for it because it was like there's no way they couldn't do there's no way and not only is it there it's on every Model H okay your frustration is frustration that people have felt from design changes from Apple in years past there were people that were very frustrated at the iOS 7 design changes and the move away from the iOS 6 kind of uh SC morphic design yeah there are people that are are very frustrated about the idea of the loss of the headphone back there are all kinds of changes and your frustration mirrors those exactly because you you don't see a net positive benefit no it's just I am excited to check out the new bands though I will be getting a series 3 watch um as I've said on here many times I love the Apple watch and I love the idea of being able to leave my phone behind when I go for a run um you know Siri being faster and and working anywhere and and uh being able to get text messages and phone calls and all that and be connected uh are all um cherries on top and I'm I'm very very excited about uh when I go to the gym when I go for a run or just when I go out on the weekends just sometimes leaving my phone at home that's going to be it's going to feel very freeing and that's exciting to me yeah well I got 99 problems but a red dot on my watch ain't one you like the Red Dot it doesn't offend me all right well there there are far more other things that I can choose to be offended about than a red dot really but I am looking forward to your exclusive review of a black sticker that you're going to put over I will I will so we have we have never before on Apple Insider reviewed a sticker to my knowledge no no we have not godspeed all right so tell me about the loss of reachability as a function yeah this was something that um I did a little kind of PSA article on um that kind of caught on on Twitter and stuff people talking about it uh generated some discussion in the comments and I found it pretty interesting um I really like the iPhone 10 I like a lot about it but the one thing that drives me nuts about the iPhone 10 is because now that the home button is gone and we swipe up from the bottom of the screen to return to the home screen and multitask you can no longer swipe up from the bottom of the screen to Access Control Center and it's even more frustrating now that we have IOS 11 which makes control center more powerful and customizable than ever and so for me uh on my handy dandy iPhone SE I swipe up from the bottom of the screen to do a lot of things including access the flashlight adjust the volume adjust the brightness do music controls quickly go into do not distur mode before I start recording the podcast put on airplane mode when I get on a flight put on low power motive I'm going out for the day now an iOS 11 that it's on there uh I use I have a bunch of homekit accessories I use use control center to turn off lights and on in my home on home kit all the time and so that's awesome when you can just swipe up quickly from the bottom of the screen with one hand the iPhone 10 is designed for two-handed use and this is evidence by the fact that because there's no home button uh and because Apple decided not to program a way to do it there is no longer reachability so to give you a little history lesson and why this is important Apple's first iPhone obviously was 3.5 in they expanded to 4 in and with the iPhone 5 which your wife still uses and when the iPhone 5 came out they had to kind of justify the size especially when phones that were coming out at the time for a variety of reasons including the fact that LTE radios consumed too much power so they had to get more battery in there Android phones were on much much much uh uh bigger screens and so Apple decided not to go as big and so they put out a commercial explaining why and Jeff Daniels narrated and it shows the thumb of a user ing from all four corners of an iPhone 4 and saying you know it's it just makes sense it's the size of the average person's hand it just works and so because that was such a part of the marketing campaign for the five and later the 5S when they went with the larger screens for the six Apple had to appease those customers that were a fan of the one-handed use and kind of justify their their jump to the bigger screen so they included a feature on the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus and has been on every phone since then called reachability and reachability is basically rather than pressing the home button you simply rest your thumb on it twice quickly in succession and what it does is it brings down the screen to half size so that you can reach up and touch for example like a back button that might be in the top left corner or something half height right yeah half height and uh it's so you double press double tap I I don't know how you would put it double you you double tap you aren't pressing the button in you're just double tapping the surface of it right yeah double tap the home button without pressing and then you can do one touch on the screen and it will then automatically expand back to full size and so that is you know you're using your phone one-handed for whatever reason and you for example you're browsing the App Store and you want to hit the back button in the top left and you can't reach it with one hand so you double tap on the home button you press it and then it goes back to full screen and you're good well because there's no home button on the iPhone 10 there is no reachability anymore and Apple has not the I mean unless this changes before the phone Ships Come November they have not programmed any way to do this and if you look at all the videos uh showing the device being used and accessing these functions um uh they show it being used two-handed so it's clearly the phone was designed to be used as a two-handed phone so to bring all that full circle uh because control center is no longer swiped from the bottom of the screen on the iPhone 10 it's actually in the upper right quadrant uh on the right side of of the notch um so if you want to access notification center you swipe down from the left side of the Notch and if you want to access control center you swipe down from the right side of the Notch and so this is going to be a big change to how you use your phone because for me I instinctively pick up my phone swipe up hit the flashlight or swipe up hit hit uh uh homekit controls and it's all there on on the control center from the bottom of the screen now maybe you pick up your phone and choke up your handle a little bit higher and then swipe down from the top or whatever I mean this is you know total first world problem this is the equivalent of the nuisance that it was learning how to use natural scrolling is I think that what happens now is um you used to uh currently you pick up your phone and and you're choking your hand more toward the bottom of the phone right so that you can access the thumb the home button because that's the most important thing for you to be able to access now maybe with the iPhone 10 you pick it up but your hand is more toward the middle of it because you don't need to press the bottom of it to unlock you do need to swipe from the bottom so it'll be interesting to see how that works I wonder if maybe um on the lock screen at least Apple doesn't require you to swipe from the very bottom and allows you to swipe from more towards the middle just to quickly pick up your phone and access I I don't know I'm I'm just speculating but um I could see where the Habit becomes picking up your phone your thumb is more toward the middle of the phone so now you can swipe down from the top to Access Control Center and so I didn't mean for this story to come across as a oh I hate big phones kind of thing more so just a Apple's design philosophy has changed in a significant way with the iPhone 10 Apple has always gone out of their way to to cater to one-handed use and even in iOS 11 they've introduced a new one-handed keyboard for making it easier to type but this is an example of where the iPhone 10 design philosophy has changed and they are no longer making an attempt to cater to those one-handed users and it'll be interesting to see if they do a course correction on that or if things stay the way they are my you I did a very informal uh anecdotal survey and and what I found was that among the the small number of people asked it's a totally totally invalid survey for any purpose of of kind acal numbers right but I suspect Apple has real numbers is is that more people that I asked triggered reachability accidentally than intentionally right I somebody in the comments from that standpoint yeah so hey look at that someone else said that too yeah and I'm not just reporting my own opinion I did really ask about 10 people but I I know totally statistically invalid survey if that's true and more people accidentally triggered it than intentionally then it makes sense to move away from doesn't it perhaps um you know I C 10 people against 85 million is is really a big unknown but and plenty of people in the comments were saying that they use reachability all the time and I was seeing people complain um uh and I mentioned this in my story I have not personally tested it but um I guess it used to be an iOS 10 and earlier with reachability you could use it to invoke the notification center but with iOS 11 they've made it so that you cannot swipe down to invoke notification Center when using reachability so uh that's another change away from one-handed use which is which is somewhat interesting uh whether that gets addressed in the final release of iOS 11 or in a further in an update down the road and was maybe an oversight I don't know but there were certainly a lot of people that waited in the comments saying that they use reachability all the time uh when I was using an iPhone uh 6s I did not use reachability um I just uh would uh kind of extend my thumb a little further and I could I could make that reach um but it's important to remember cuz somebody was saying uh somebody tweeted us and people were saying in the comments oh well it's the iPhone 10 is about the same size as the iPhone 7 and iPhone 8 uh you know it's the basically the same form factor well you don't reach up and touch the bezel and the the speaker area on an iPhone 8 or an iPhone 7 you don't reach that far you only reach as far as the screen goes yes it's the same size form factor generally speaking but the phone screen is much bigger it goes from from 4.7 in to 5.8 in it's bigger than the than the plus screen size so you're going to have to reach that much further to get to the edge of the screen to do those gestures absolutely it's it's going to be a change that's all we can really say is that there's definitely going to be a change here and people who use this new device are going to have to get accustomed to it so are you getting one of the new phones Victor um I would like one of the new phones I am very probably not getting one of the new phones mhm uh uh first of all because my my uh expense budget from the cabal that run at the dark headquarters of Apple Insider doesn't necessarily permit it and you know I just I just can't file that much on an expense report I'm sure you know how that works um the other reason is is because I am interested in seeing what comes after iPhone 10 m and I say that because my observation is that when Apple introduced is a new technology a flagship technology that the first year it comes out it's wonderful it's great it's well executed but the second year they refine it and and a good example of that would be the iPhone 5S that came with Touch ID but did not have the secure element and so it didn't do support Apple pay and that the year after we got the iPhone 6 which did so well this I can't conceive of what they might improve upon but clearly they know what to improve upon right they've already got they've already been working on the road map for what comes after iPhone 10 for 6 months for sure yeah the rumors say that we're going to get a plus-sized iPhone 10 next year so something more of the form factor of the iPhone 8 plus but with a you know 6.6 inch display or something right so and and that makes good sense because the iPhone 10 even though it has the longer screen surface area it uh if you rotate it into landscape mode you don't have the same useful height as you do from a plus-sized device right so partly I'm I'm I don't have the budget partly I'm waiting for what comes next and I'm I'm also interested in what the naming conventions are going to be next because we have eight and 10 so what what do you what do you name the devices next uh good question I don't know you know am I am I going to wait around for an iPhone 9 when we've already had a 10 that's been released I I don't know may maybe it's like OS 10 and it just keeps the name for 15 years it it could it very well could um but then that it's so weird because you have the iPhone 8 so does that increment or are they just all iPhone 10s branding of subnames on products has never been a strong suit for Apple especially when well there there have been examples of this in the past right the iPad 3 the the fat iPad was the new iPad mhm when it was announced which of course was always going to be a difficult device because when the IP it was iPad with retina display and then that later that year was the iPad 4 which was the next generation iPad with retina display I believe yes but but Apple officially did Market the iPad 3 as a new iPad for a while well no because iPad 3 was the first one with the r display so I think they called it iPad with r a display at any rate yeah I agree with you in whole naming has been a difficult one iPad Air then iPad Air 2 but never got an iPad Air 3 moved onto the iPad Pro now we just have a regular iPad that's a size of the first Air iPad air but it's not it's like oh geez it's it's difficult isn't it it really is and and clearly it's a challenge for them because they have as much trouble with it as we do yeah and I you know I I think that they don't think that far ahead uh I think that they're focused more on making the product and and the naming conventions are kind of you can see where the Market's going what's going to make you stand out what's going to whatever you know certainly uh I think that the fact that Samsung is up to the number eight on their phones May contribute to why we have iPhone 8 and iPhone 10 this year um I think that that I'm sure Apple's internal you know marketing research teams can look into that stuff and see how much it matters with consumers it doesn't matter to me but I I'm sure there's a lot of people that that that fall for those little tricks and so it's good business sense to follow along and do those kind of things definitely now I want to talk about something that I know is close to your heart yes charging now you have run a number of articles on the the website and also talked here on the podcast about charging speeds and how to charge an iPad Pro for example at a faster charge rate you have to buy a separate brick and a separate cable to be able to do it tell me about quick charging the iPhone 8 and the iPhone 10 yeah the uh the sins of the father uh have been passed on to the the from the iPad to the iPhone now I want to say that sigh was palpable I could really tell the the pain that you feel there you know I I sympathize with apple um in some respects on this because they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place um they don't want to put out new lightning cables and power bricks uh that run on Old USB full-size ports because they have the new USBC connector that they're pushing on the Mac however they don't want to ship USBC connectors with the iPhone because then people that have Legacy USB port computers which is the vast majority of people buying iPhones wouldn't be able to plug it into their computer and they don't want to ship it with multiple cables in the box so what do you do there is no good answer um but unfortunately for Apple they you know their choice is a bad one no matter what I I don't know what they would do to fix it but the iPhone 8 and I iPhone 10 will both ship with basically the same 5 wat power adapter and with a regular usba a fullsize USB port to lightning connector the phones will support usb3 Quick Charge capabilities which will give you 50% juice in your iPhone in 30 minutes which is awesome the problem with that is you have to go and buy a $20 or $30 USBC to lightning cable and you have to buy a USB C power brick with the appropriate wattage so if you were buy official Apple products the cheapest one you can get is the 29 watt brick for the 12-in MacBook and so now you're looking at another $70 tacked onto your $1,000 phone just to get the Quick Charge capability now the fact that they do this with the iPhone 8 I understand that's their consumer focused product whatever but with the iPhone 10 which is geared toward premium users and high-end users and even more so with the iPad Pro which is designed as a computer replacement I find this to be highly unacceptable and I think it I don't think that Apple's doing it as a cheap skate move but it comes across as a cheap skate move it comes across as nickel and Diamond that you have to spend another $70 to get fast charge capabilities which is something that most people want you know this is something where um I I think that most consumers say if you ask them what's the number one problem with their iPhone they're going to say battery life I want the battery to be to last longer one way of addressing that since we can't magically invent better batteries is to make it charge more quickly you know you have it charged in the car while you're driving you charge it your desk while you're working you come home from the gym and take a shower and pop it on there and get a get a quick charge on it uh having it juice up more quickly is is a good thing um and I think it should ship in the box with that now whether a better solution would be to make a full-size USB 3 uh to lightning cable with a more powerful power brick in in the Box I don't know but uh whatever they're doing right now is not not smart okay wireless charging wireless charging is interesting um I didn't think we got a tip before uh Apple's event which ended up being 100% right from an anonymous source saying that Apple wasn't going to ship their charger until 2018 um and uh in the interim Belin and mphi were going to step up to the plate with their own accessories um that that was that was accurate um Apple's own charging solution is going to be interesting as well I think it's going to have a mix of like NFC in there to allow it cu the the chi uh uh open standard that they're using um only allows one device to charge at a time uh Apple is going to kind of address that on their air power charging pad with some NFC technology the devices are going to talk to one another it's only going to work with newer devices um so um I I think that wireless charging is good it's not something I'm personally excited in about uh the thing I find more exciting about wireless charging is cu I use a mofy battery case with my phone and it occupies the lightning port and especially if you have an iPhone 7 that uh you want to use wired headphones with it and now the lightning Port is occupied by a battery case I'm excited by the prospect of Snap-on Wireless uh battery cases that leave the lightning Port open so that you can plug in your headphones and use them right so you want a a battery case that charges by Chi and also charges the phone by Chi well I don't care the head I I I don't care if it charges by Chi I don't know that I would I don't know that I would be interested in buying a wireless charging pad but I'm saying just connecting it to the phone without occupying the lightning port and being able to recharge the phone without covering that Port would be very nice what I can tell you is that wireless charging is incredibly convenient that when I've used it I have liked it a lot it's it's uh really something brilliant now there's there's sort of an intermediate step here where we've seen this tried to transition for years uh there have been charging ports that have been built into tables at staru bucks for for trial Starbucks there have been movements from Ikea where Ikea has made furniture that allows you to build the charging puck for wireless charging directly into the the surface of the furniture yeah and I think what happens is that that becomes more of a thing that we see in the market once this standard really takes hold yeah I see that in the meantime there's there are products like the Balon boost up and uh mof's Force charge product Char rather charge Force and and those charging bases don't cost very much in the scheme of things to get a a charge Force wireless charging base from Mofi is 40 bucks yeah this is something very cool uh I I can't tell you how great it is you have to experience it for yourself but the idea that you don't have to physically manipulate the cable into the charge port is good you just put it down on the base and leave it yeah that's cool I I don't see myself laying a charging mat on my desk I'm kind of limited for desk space as it is and a dock uh is a little more convenient in terms of taking less real estate good news there are docks that have back rests with ch built into them yeah that's cool I can see myself using something like that I it's very you know instead of having to aim it and get it right on the dock on the lightning connector sticking up from a dock just sitting it in the dock and having it charge yeah I don't you still get the the vertical orientation you like and it's charging I don't see myself buying like new furniture or anything like that um it is funny that over time right people replace furniture and when you replace Furniture over time will you get one that has it built in sure why not my parents bought a Toyota Avalon a couple years ago that has a wireless charging thing in it and uh obviously it doesn't it didn't work with previous iPhones but I had checked anyhow to see if one would fit on there because my mom has an iPhone 7 plus and the phone's too big to even fit on the wireless charging pad so even if they got an iPhone 8 it would just wouldn't work well but so here here's the other thing right Toyota has been very late to the game in terms of Apple carplay they've they've held off and resisted doing it right but in in the future when you have a car that comes equipped with wireless carplay and a wireless charging mat in the armrest or in the console then you have the perfect storm because you just put your phone in because you need a place for your phone to sit anyway or you leave it in your pocket or your purse whatever but you can just sit it there and have it charge and it will wirelessly do carplay at that same time that is a perfect storm yeah no I think that's a great use case for it absolutely cool well I'd like to draw this segment to a close is there anything you want to use as a parting thought um I'm still not sure which phone I'm I'm going to get I I would definitely get an iPhone 8 4.7 in if it had the dual camera I've been very envious of the dual camera on the iPhone 7 plus for last year using my SE so I'm not interested in the full size of the of the iPhone 8 plus so I'm I'm considering the iPhone 10 um I want to get it um the the the combination of the price and and the giant screen and some other quirks um have me debating it I but I think that you know if you're not somebody insane like me who likes smaller phones I think this is a great phone lineup um I don't have a problem with it I I just I like uh the I value my uh pocket space I suppose so uh I will probably end up getting a iPhone 10 but I don't see the iPhone 8 lineup really appealing to me because you want that dual camera and you want to air on the smaller size of device right if they if they put the dual camera on the iph 8 this year with the home button and all that I I would have no qualms with the missing headphone jack or anything else I I would totally get the 4.7 in phone because I want to have that 2x Zoom right so what I think happens here is is if it's as you say right if if next year we get the plus-sized device of the iPhone 10 then we end up in a world where the iPhone 10 has the dual camera the smaller device has the dual camera as well as the larger device right that's that's where it's going Neil So you you should get the iPhone 10 you should spend that money I that probably what I'm going to end up doing um if I can get one we'll see how many they can manufacture at launch there you go all right well this has been this segment of the app and sold podcast uh Neil nickol and dime Hughes where can we find you on the internet you can read me on Apple Insider and I'm on Twitter at thisis Neil NE all right we'll be right back with another segment with Daniel Aon diler Dan thanks for coming back yeah thanks for having me so you after the announcement on Tuesday got to go into the Hands-On area can you tell me a little bit about what it was like because my understanding is that when you come down the stairs and then go into the theater Hands-On area is sort of blocked off by a wall and then when you come out the wall has somehow retracted yeah you don't see uh when when you enter so when you enter the SE theater you have that it's been portrayed in a lot of pictures it's just a huge cylinder of glass with a lid on top of it uh so when you walk in there is a couple elevators that that do the twisting turning motion as they come down but the main way to get down there is there's two stairways that Circle uh either side of the outside of the the ring so there's these two grand stairways that both lead down from the top down to the same place it's the opening of the theater and as you walk down these stairways it looks like just sort of a hallway that's opening out into the theater that's still below you so you come out at the top of the theater and then you walk down into it so on the way in you don't get the sense that there's something else there it looks like there could be a room it's like this big round room but as cook was finishing the comments he said you know check out our great Hands-On theater and it was actually the the thing was moving so it's like this huge uh wall of kind of stainless steel looking panels that retracts around like a theater of its own like this huge periphery of wall that that goes around it's like a curtain it's like a round curtain wall but it looks like a solid wall when when you first see it and then it retracts and all of a sudden you come out of the theater and there's this huge round room that's you know High ceilings and have these dramatic stairways on either side going up uh so it's a very beautiful location however it is a little bit Apple's Hands-On areas after their presentations are always beautiful I mean they're always like very nicely done however it's really difficult to see anything because first of all there's crowds of people second of all they have like handful of products on display you know they have a limited number of people that can it's a large number of people fighting over access to a small number of products yeah and there's a lot of fighting because there's are people from all over the world there's all different kinds of cultures represented in terms of like how you whether you wait in line or whether you just push in front of people the etiquette for how you fight over them is uh a little bit different than you might expect is that what you're talking yeah and and these are journalists so they're used to like fighting to get a mic in the story and get a camera in so you kind of have to do the same thing um but yeah there's it it feels like there's not quite enough tables and not quite enough people and then at the same time there's another issue is that you have this beautiful uh spot they have round tables everything about it is is incredibly beautiful however the lighting is very harsh lights from the ceiling pointing down so if you are handling one of these devices that's you know Chrome and beautiful glass reflective let's say yes and of course the screen is also going to be reflective from the watch to the phone uh it's just covered in Dots and a lot of the pictures that we took it looks like there's some kind of virus on these products because they're just covered in spots so it is is difficult to take pictures of things how's the color cast when you're doing that is it is it also blown out or is it uh is it that was less of an a problem I mean they're they're pretty neutral bright lighting but just the fact that it's so there's so much Sheen it's difficult to get Reflections um so interesting you think of that right I mean the iPhone is the the most popular camera in the world right now or at least mobile phone photography is you you'd think that they would uh have have tested what does an iPhone taking a picture result in in this room you'd think they also uh probably use really highend equipment I mean I took pictures with my phone primarily um I was using a a gimbal Mount to take pictures of the environment and in the room itself but um a lot of it is handheld and you're trying to hold a device and take pictures of it it's a little harder than it seems it should be juggling two things of course it could be worse you could be juggling a DSLR right right I've done that before and that's why I go with the phone because it's just so much simpler but a lot a lot of people there have you know um very highend professional gear cameras and they have their own lighting that they bring and they have multiple people holding things and talking to a person whose job is just to recite what they've already been told the whole sort of environment reminded me of in Japan you know there's Lookout Towers you go to Tokyo and there's actually a couple different ones where you go out and you can see out over the vast expanse of Tokyo and when you try to take pictures of it the the way that the glass is positioned in the lighting it's just kind of impossible to take good pictures why are the towers that they designed impossible to get a picture out of that's a well because the people doing the architecture aren't the people making the photos well perhaps uh they're redoing the the Space Needle in Seattle and are they really I think that's yeah it's a privately owned structure and they're going to close it down and and take out all the walls actually haven't I've been there several times to the ground and seen it but I haven't paid the premium to go to the top I I have I have eaten in the restaurant at the top yeah a long time ago I eat in the restaurant it's it's kind of in fact when I when I try to remember my experiences in Space Needle it reminds me of f term in Germany in Berlin which is also kind of the same thing if if it is quite diffult to make walls of glass that you can take pictures through without any sort of um Sheen or reflection or anything but yeah the funny thing about the Space Needle was I was driving around in Seattle and I was driving through these neighborhoods that looked you know kind of I I would say they weren't run down per se but they certainly weren't newly freshened up and all of a sudden they're over the rooftop of this this junky looking building there's the Space Needle And it hadn't occurred to me at all that that the World's Fair where the World's Fair had taken place is is now basically this kind of rundown well aging neighborhood kind of thing there's there's an area right next to it that feels like 1940s Americana mhm that that's really cute and then there's really fancy areas around Queen Anne and then between that and downtown they're just it's completely being redeveloped yeah there was a lot of just sort of open stuff but they're yeah they're building that huge you know Big Dig project of U undergrounding the freeway and yeah so all that is just massively going on the other view of San of Seattle is a tower that is where actually I believe it's a tower it's like Columbia Center or something like that it's one of the tallest buildings in Seattle it's then I believe that's where apple is building a new or or they took over a lease of several floors of it I don't know exactly what they're doing there but probably trying to recruit people from Amazon and Microsoft can't imagine but it has a tremendous View and if you go to Seattle that's you should probably go up to that building and see the view from there because it's better than the space mind never mind Seattle let's go back to cerino for a minute okay okay handling the new devices you know clear I'm not going to ask you a whole lot about the Apple watch clearly the Apple watch is an Apple Watch Right it hasn't really changed form factor in any appreciable way I think it's it's not worthy that the form factor has not changed um the stainless steel watch feels about the same I I couldn't really feel a difference between it and the the series zero that I have the original one um and the ceramic new versions I mean it's a new color uh the addition is it it may be actually a little bit heavier but it felt about the same to me when I was handling them yeah so they've put all this new technology in but it's kind of the same thing far factor I I think what we really want to talk about are iPhone 8 and 8 plus and iPhone 10 pick one go ahead and start well let's start with iPhone 8 and 8 plus um when you look at them on first glance you think oh this isn't really this is just a refresh of the seven which of course last time when the seven came out people were saying oh yeah the seven is not a totally different case so it's super boring and everyone's just going to fall asleep looking at it um but the seven had actually a lot of really crazy technology in it one for Apple you know other things other companies had done some of these things but you know the obvious things was that it's water waterproof or water resistant and dust resistant I have enjoyed that so much that you don't have to worry about it getting slightly wet you can also take pictures underwater and all summer I've been taking pictures I have to do a story on this of what how much much of an enabling technology it is to be able to go and take pictures where water isn't an issue that's a really big feature and other companies have done some waterproofing Samsung did some waterproofing that you know didn't really pass the test but um Sony has been doing waterproofing for years but Apple's bringing it to the mainstream with I mean they did last year with iPhone 7 um and of course the other you know huge feature of the seven was the dual cameras on the back so iPhone 8 does the same kind of things um the the fit and finish has changed and now I thought the six and the Seven were kind of they were they almost kind of reached like this Pinnacle of like basicness like if you look at them they look nice but there's nothing they don't look incredible it isn't like it kind of reminds me a lot of the iPhone 3G 3G and 3GS where the first iPhone was like this really cool like stainless steel blob and then the first one was aluminum the first one looked like you know the shiny metal and um the mass Market 3G and 3GS were plastic and it was kind of like okay so this is what's necessary to get the price down to make it available to everybody but um it was just sort of like you know it's like an okay design it's like yeah this works it doesn't have the same kind of like cool feel like a temperature cool I mean being piece of metal in your hand it was now this kind of sort of practical plastic and when iPhone 4 came out it was like wow this is like what Steve Jobs described as being like the design of a Leica camera and it felt amazing again and that kind of went on the you know the five which is sort of like fancier and had this kind of gleaming camper Edge and that didn't change until the six and the six six plus and seven have all had this kind of same look of just being like super streamlined it looks like a Airstream trailer or something you know it's just kind of beautifully minimal that you put in the case anyway and they're very nice and and the differentiation has been kind of a finish on the outside you can get the product red one you can get the jet black or something like that with the eight what's changed is they have a functional glass back that allows you to do um the wireless charging but it also gives it a totally different sort of look because you have the the the edge that is stainless steel on the on the 10 and I believe it's aluminum on the eight and 8 plus yeah uh is chromy you know shiny and the back whether it's white or white or black um and they have the Gold version on the eight uh is because it's beyond underneath glass is kind of like a frosted glass like very shiny it's kind of like jet jet black but covered in glass and then you have color options so it is a very distinctive phone although a lot of that distinctiveness is going to be um obscured if you put it in a typical case so that's the appearance the feeling of it um it's kind of kind of feels the same when you when something looks different it also has even if it feels the same it it kind of conveys a different feel um I didn't notice that it felt colder because it was glass but um it's it has like an attractiveness to it it has kind of a flare where the previous models were just sort of like here's a phone that you're going to put in a case yeah should people be concerned about breaking the glass do you think yeah I think the front and the back are both something that if you drop it hard enough you're going to crack it and if you look around there's a lot of people with crack screens I have to keep saying though I've had an iPhone now for 10 years and I have never broke the screen and I have dropped them many times sometimes on the corner sometimes flat on concrete um sometimes across you know Stone stairs and I've never broke the screen but when you you've done that you've always had it in a case with a screen protector of some kind yes no I actually I've only used a case kind of recently I've dropped all kinds of naked iPhones all the time on hard Services tile a lot and I've never broke the screen interesting but I see a lot of people who have broken screens I mean like almost all my friends have broken phone screens sole said this is this is a you know more strengthened glass they keep making advances and I mean it's actually their supplier Corning probably uh that's you know developing better and better glass for the front and the back so uh you know we don't have any data on how much more resistant it is but yeah I would definitely say this is a expensive device you would handle it with care and probably put it in a case although having it in a case also changes the feel of it I have Apple's leather case M that makes it feel makes it feel thicker but it it makes it feel a lot more secure and I have actually dropped it in the case and I'm sure the case has saved it a couple times more recently that I I don't even have a Nick on it yeah I've I've known people who've been in both camps I've known people who said Apple intended this device to be held like this they they intended to be without a case you should carry it without a case um the the alternative point of view that I subscribe to is this thing would cost several hundred up to $1,000 to replace I darn well better protect it with you know the the cheap piece of plastic that I use or whatever it is it is a lot Slimmer the the whole like 66 S7 has been it feels super slim when you don't have a case on it it feels nice however um it's also kind of slippery and unlike previous models like the four and the five it doesn't have a flat Edge so you can't can't stand on the edge and uh they're actually so big now you probably wouldn't want to have it standing up on end but and of course having a round rounded Edge makes them feel smaller so in many cases the eight is not changing radically about the case the appearance has changed yeah what about the stainless steel part of the iPhone 10 uh I didn't notice that it felt really different in fact I I thought they were both using the same I was kind of surprised like wow they're both stainless steel um it is a different type of construction instead of having sort of like an outside shell with everything inside of it that the 66 S7 has been it has this appearance of like I said more like the four where you have glass panels on either side and then this metal rim although the edge of the 8 and 10 is so smooth you can't feel it I mean you can see that there's different materials there's really it's a sandwich but when you feel it it it feels like a seven it's smooth all the way around you cannot feel the edge that's a big improvement over the six and sixs construction pretty incredible um yeah like I said you look at it and you can see that it's a sandwich but when you feel it it's it feels like how do they build this because it looks like it's all crafted out of the same thing and especially with the tin you have that feeling of where does the screen end and where does the it's kind of like where does the software end and where does the hardware start um it's just a smooth gradient of integration the other the other obvious big difference between the 10 and the 88 plus is that the display on the tin is OLED and it's actually curved in the body of it so the screen goes right to the edge and it goes right into the corners and surrounds the Notch and there's kind of two modes for you're watching video you can either have it playing video and because the front of both colors with the white and the Black version of the Tim is black uh it kind of hides the notch when you have playing in as an inset rectangle where you see every pixel of the movie and if you double tap on it when you're playing it expands so that the corners the the corners of the movie are actually cut off and also the notch is cut out but I like that I've heard a lot of people complaining about it um but when you're watching a movie and you double tap it and it just takes over the whole screen it's kind of an incredible experience I mean it feels like it's just doing as much as it can and even though there is a you know there is this Notch of of the true that dep sensor array and the camera and stuff it kind of becomes invisible I mean you note it but it kind of goes away with video and of course it changes depending on what you're watching I suppose but the movies that I the movie clips that I saw uh were a mix of light and dark sort of things and after a couple seconds I didn't feel like I saw the notch now in apps it's a little bit different because you're looking at a static UI and I think there's a really big difference you know most people that are looking at this Notch situation are seeing screen captures or uh the an image from the um xcode emulator which shows what it would look like in sort of a picture with you see the whole phone there but that's a different experience when you actually have the phone in your hand you don't see animations you don't see uh Transitions and things like that when you're looking at a web page of a static image and so the of using apps where you have the little ears going up and pulling down from the corner it is a different experience and I when I look at some of those pictures I think oh yeah I wouldn't like that if I just saw this picture but I've handled it and when you have the phone in your hand and you pull down from the corner the top right corner you're pulling it down from the ear where the kind of Hardware related sensors are you know the signal meter and the battery indicator you pull down from there and it's very intuitive that that's where control senser should be be pulled down from because that's the kind of stuff that you're looking for if you pull it down from any other Corner the middle for the the left side you get notifications so that's much more control center is only the upper right is that it or is it yeah so it distinguishes between whether you start pulling down from the top right ear where like I said the battery indicator is you pull out from that you get Control Center and the you know Hardware related settings if you pull it down from just the top or the the other corner you get the typical thing that you get when you pull down from iOS device is your notifications so it's a clever way of sort of using those notches to convey some information what what do you think about reachability and reachability uh not being present on iPhone 10 so I've been using the 6s plus and 7 plus for the last couple years almost exclusively and I have very rarely ever used reachability the screen is huge you almost have to use two hands to use it I mean it's there's a lot of times where you know I keep saying I have huge hands and I still cannot reach the top of the screen in many cases but reachability doesn't seem to you know I get the idea and it's it may work for some people but typically when I use reachability it's accidental like I've bumped the home button too many times and the screen comes halfway down and I'm like how do I get it back up and I can't flick it back up with my hand and you have to remember oh yeah you hit it again with your thumb on the home button to get it back to where you wanted it but it's it's kind of a feature that you can sort of use if you remember to use it but it's it's not quite as intuitive to use or dismiss as as I would like so I don't really use it a lot so the fact that it's gone is kind of like H whatever I mean it's not gone on the eight I believe it's still working on the eight but on the 10 um first of all it's not as wide as the plus it is a taller screen but um the the width is pretty consistent with the regular you know this the the regular energy or the seven or the eight device yeah and for developers it's actually considered a compact width profile device so it actually works even though it has a bigger screen the screen is actually it's more pixels than the plus but the way that it's uh the orientation and just kind of the device and everything about it uh it it has more of the behavior of a standard iPhone 8 so it when you rotate the device to landscape H you don't get a landscape home screen or springboard right um I have to think about that I don't remember I don't remember that happening okay you when you open up mail for example you don't get a split screen like you would on the the plus device do you I think when I when I was using it it was configured I don't know if it's cuz the plush you can configure either way you can have it work sort of like a big um standard phone or you can use the pixels to have like a wider keyboard and the additional panels in mail things like that um I I don't think that's how the the tin works I think the tin is more like a standard iPhone but with just more pixels and because it's wider um it's it behaves a little bit differently um I even with the plus models I don't usually browse the web in wide mode just because I don't think if I ever if I ever do that and a number of times I thought it would be smart for Apple to use to really make use of the plus to be more like a hip top or you know like the danger phones where it's kind of like a you hold it in sort of a horizontal orientation but I Apple's never done that and it's never really caught on I mean when you're browsing the web even though it gives you a much wider display it's more like an iPad width but it it's not as functional because you don't have as much height so I don't think there's very many people at all that use even the Plus in horizontal mode and with the 10 when you put in in horizontal mode you do get a wider browser but again it's because it's a little bit narrower than the plus you're seeing less content so again the iPhone is primarily designed to be held vertically in fact I usually have vertical lock you use orientation lock right because it's actually sort of annoying like if you're you know lounging on the couch or something it keeps flipping back and forth so you just lock it and I find that there's not a lot of situations where I want to unlock it and use it in wide so that you know my initial impression that the plus phones should be wide doesn't hasn't really materialized there are some apps that do wide and and they work that way but I think the iPhone 10 shows that Apple's intent is a like I just wrote about they're getting rid of the home button on purpose mhm and they've spent a lot of time thinking about it isn't just like hey let's change things arbitrarily it's this is what we've been working on of how to get rid of the home button and how we we've been speculating on this podcast for the past three years about what it would be to get rid of the home button right and they've been thinking about it for at least that long and the home button is really a defining it was the definition of the original phone it was like way to go between apps and then it kept layering on more and more stuff you know Touch ID a few years ago uh changed it dramatically and then of course Apple pay and um there are some accessibility things that are attached to the button that is also a problem for some people some people don't have the motor skills to hit the button um was that Todd stable field that gave the presentation WWDC he was saying how wonderful it was to see Siri you know he's a paraplegic and how wonderful it was to see the voice recognition taking off and then hitting the sudden realization that oh man it still means you have to hit a button to use it um but Apple's kind of worked around that with hey Siri and having other devices that you can invoke what the home button does in a different way if for people who have motor issues that a button doesn't work for them so I don't think that's a problem for accessibility people we have to talk to some people that have that as their first experience but um there's it it just seems like such an essential definition of the iPhone in fact when you look on on Apple's website like I took that little graphic of how Apple depicts the various different iPhone models iPhone has been this rectangle with the rectangle inside of it and a circle with a home button and that is what iPhone means on a kind of iconic level and with iPhone x that is all G iPhone 10 that's gone to where it's now a rectangle with a slight Notch at the top and that's the new definition of of what an iPhone is absolutely so how would you say that your opinions have changed since um since you saw it a couple days ago you've had some time to think about it sort of digest your impressions what what do you think um has have you you reconsidered any of your initial Impressions or or what have you arrived at well thinking about the amount of work when you see a new product whether it's from Apple or anybody else I mean when you see a new product you start judging the things that you think are missing or you you realize the things that are obviously different and there's a lot of things that you don't realize how much went into building that or the decisions behind it and giving some thought to to how much effort and really what a big deal it is for iPhone 10 to not just move to a different uh slightly different um taller narrower display that with less of a margin around the outsides the bezel and losing the home button but there's really a rethinking of everything about how the phone works and there's a tremendous amount of effort that's been put into that and a lot of thought and so having been been writing about these things and and giving it some extra kind of rumination time to think uh it's kind of a new appreciation of how much thought has gone into a lot of these details and there are some things that are still remaining for example web pages and apps how do they use the full screen of the phone um I don't think there's a lot of apps that are going to be bothered by losing corners but that is potentially a thing and also having a notch if if your if your app assumes that text can go to both in of the thing of the screen when you're in the wide orientation you have to think about well how do I do that does my app only use the safe fairy in the middle or do I make some extra use of the you know so it's not a something that is going to look terrible I don't think but um it's definitely something for developers to think about in terms of how they want their app to be seen and really when you when you take advantage of the the ears on one side around the notch in novel ways you can come up with things that you know make a lot of sense and are distinctive and make your your app feel modern and um up to dat so what do you think people should know what do you think what's the question that people should ask that they don't know to ask right now about these new devices and how would you answer it what's the question that they don't know to ask yeah I mean there people are still people are still trying to figure out do they like the notch do they not like the notch are they going to miss the home button what should they really buy and and I see people waffling between buying an iPhone iPhone 10 or buying an iPhone 8 or even in some cases saying you know what forget all of this I'm just going to buy it at seven now that the price has dropped so what's your your feeling what should people be aware of that that they might not have picked up on well first of all that those things are not new we've always had people looking at the latest iPhone that's released and and saying oh do I need these features do I want to pay the premium for the latest things that Apple can come up with or do I want to take advantage of the fact that last year's phone is now cheaper or do I want to take advantage of the fact that I can get you know a refurbished phone or you know somebody's hand me down for much less so I think the real issue for most people is how how fancy do they want to be and for a lot of iPhone users you know if if you don't want to be fancy maybe you're not using an iPhone but for it's kind of incredible because other makers don't have this situation the majority every year the majority of the phones that Apple sold were its best and that happened even you know there was some talk when the iPhone 6 or the iPhone 5 s and 5c were were outlined together that you know people were kind of gravitating towards cheaper phones and the 5c was going to playcate the masses where the 5S was going to be just for people who thought a 64-bit chip was important and that turned out to be a false assumption uh for the public and even Apple um it certainly knew that the 5S was going to be a big seller but it that the product mix was a little different than it expected it was Apple sold more of the the fanciest model that it had and part of that was for Touch ID and I think coming into the T I think a lot of people although the tin is far more expensive than a phone has ever been before for an entry level phone and it you know it's $1,000 and then it goes up if you want more more storage so it is a pretty pretty high pricing tier that some people are just not going to you know I don't have the money to do that uh but the other thing is people pay so much money for data service that if you're paying you know close to $100 a month for data service you're paying more for service than you are for a phone every year so even $1,000 phone is you know it's 80 something a month or it's a couple dollars a day so there's a lot of people that don't have very much money that drink more booze or coffee or cigarettes than $2 a day so I don't think it's something that's out of the bre of people who really want it and the a phone is a little bit different than other fancy things like a stereo or a you know other things that have been sort of luxurious Electronics or you know personal possessions in the past and that we use our phones all the time they are essential for not only connecting with other people but accessing information and because you use it all the time it's you know one of the big things for that has been the the key success for apple is that phones are so essential that people are willing to pay more than they've paid for other things in the past you know I think back when I was a kid you know getting a Sony Disc man or something was considered sort of a luxurious purchase and it was you know a few hundred when the iPad iPod first came out it was you know this is sort of a fancy thing that you're listening to music but because you're experiencing it on on a regular basis it was like yeah this is something that I want to spend money on because it makes me happy all the time and phone is just like that Beyond because a it's how you connect with people it um it sets you apart in terms of kind of showing what you like you know it's it's kind of thing when people when you text somebody and they have a green bubble you think oh this person doesn't care about technology this this person has a basic phone uh this person got sold to Samsung I yeah when somebody pulls out a phone and it's like some whack android model you think I don't know what you think but you know it's you think you could have bought an iPhone for the amount of money you bought that for but but it's okay to be different I get these uh I get advertisements in my email all the time right I'm I'm sure that tons of people do get these kinds of messages and one of them this morning came with the subject line that that the iPhone was too expensive and they were offering like you say some some absurd sort of unusual Android phone and I uh I think I deleted the email promptly but it was it was very much that that kind of a pitch I think it's not only that people are willing to pay more for a phone because you use it all the time and it's so intrical to your experience but also the cost of phones are more obscured certainly in the United States where there's kind of been history of carrier subsidized phones but also um just in the fact that you can now uh in a variety of territories just do this upgrade program where it's basically like leasing a phone and so it becomes sort of a fixed expense instead of a huge one time splurge and so unless you're the kind of person that can't manage to hold on to a phone without breaking or losing it every 3 months it's not a huge expense to get this like super expensive iPhone 10 um and one of one of my favorite analysts um I coted him in the article at the end he just tweeted out saying how Apple suppliers appear to be targeting $0 a 50 million iPhone 10 a supply for people to buy in the second half of 2017 and I ask is this you mean like the second half of fiscal 2017 ending in like March he's like no the end of this year if Apple sells anywhere close to 40 million phones that means half the iPhones that they sell this this winter are going to be iPhone 10 that is incredible it's already I already keep repeating this idea that it's incredible that Apple's average selling price for iPhones is around $700 it's been consistently above $650 for a long time and now they're jumping I mean jumping to $1,000 that's a pretty big price jump and they're doing it with pretty impressive technology I mean this face unlock and all the the cool things you can do with a depth sensor in the front that is incredible and other companies have you know tried to do that before um primesense itself was selling peripheral you would attached to a laptop to the um I can't think of the brand name for it but there's a depth sensor that use the same kind of Technology it's kind of like the connect for Xbox video games uh and Google had its own version for Tango that was kind of a sort of an experimental thing that that uh you could either plug in the back of a developer tablet or there's a couple tablets like I think Lenovo came out with one last fall or last winter that had the structure sensor built into it but it was all very beta if you listen to the reviews it was just sort of like this half-baked sort of you know here's kind of some potential because that's what Google does they come out with stuff and they say here's a sort of platform that we've kind of finished and we want you to show us what you're going to do with it Apple's a little bit different in that everything they do is also a platform and they want third parties to take it and run with it but they come out with their own very practical application of that technology and for iPhone 10 and the structure sensor the primary obvious thing is Face Unlock which people are going to be using all the time that has to work if it doesn't work well people are you know this is going to be a problem um and additionally there's a lot of things that I can do with a um structure sensor can tell if you're looking at the phone or if it's okay to shut off the screen because it can look at your face and say hey are you looking at me it's okay okay there's a little bit of weirdness that people have in terms of Face Unlock and they're like thinking oh I don't want this thing looking at me all the time looking at my face and should I feel self-conscious it's like folks it's the machine it's like when you go into the toilet and there's like a sensor behind the toilet it's like checking out if you're finished or not it's like gonna flush the toilet for you it's a not something you have to be self-conscious about because it is a machine it's not sending pictures of you up to you know the main office or putting them on the cloud for someone to exploit it's something that we've accepted for several years now that it's handy to have a way for us not to have to handle the the fixtures in a public bathroom and it's really not that much of a stretch to say here's one on my phone that is also because it comes from Apple we know that it's not sending stuff up to the cloud or analyzing stuff and selling our profile to sell better advertisements it's being used to unlock our phone and the customer is us and that's why we're paying for it we're paying a premium for it but it's not only really handy for Face Unlock but it also does other cool features and enables things like portrait mode selfies where you can dynamically create a depth map of your pictures and group shots when they're pointed at you and you can do after the fact lighting shots and third parties will also be able to tap into this depth API to do really cool things and you know the most obvious thing was uh Snapchat right now kids love Snapchat and they love kind of the simple you know they're kind of sophisticated filters but being able to augment dog ears on you or something I kind of hate that but the with a structure sensor it's not just people who are 12 it's young adults it's like everyone's picture on the internet now has those stupid dog oh goodness but people like that and I think a big part of it is like we mentioned regarding FaceTime is that it's sort of it's not anonymizing but it's um it takes away some of the self-consciousness because it can like you know beautify your face and you know hide elements of your hair isn't perfect it sort of kind of blurs it out and puts a crown of flowers on it or something like that and that's why it appeals to kids and that taken on a whole new level the fact that you can on an iPhone 10 you have the technology to put a skin type mask on that's like really close to your face and it's not just sort of an effect but it's like a an augmentation of your reality and how you repr yourself that's that's a simple obvious example there's going to be so much more that developers come up with and using that depth sensor to do really cool things and now you can do it in both directions um the the augmented reality stuff that they showed off um it's it's a whole new depth literally of the iOS apis so developers have been doing all kinds of cool stuff on just a you know 2D bit map of a display now you can incorporate you can mix interactive graphics with what the camera is actually seeing and you have you're not just putting you're not just kind of gen locking graphics and video together but the camera understands the depth that understands what's out there and so you can have realistic lighting effects depending on how bright the scene is and you can have an interaction between services like with arkit games where you have a whole kind of video game it's sort of unfurling in 3D virtually sort of created on top of a table where characters kind of fall off the side of it kind of thing and it's a really new world of mixing the reality world of the camera with the constructed world of Graphics that we're already pretty good at so there's going to be some really cool stuff that comes out of this cool well thank you so much for for making time to speak with us again we're going to look for that really cool stuff coming soon where can we find you on the internet I'm writing for Apple Insider um I'm writing up a new thing on the the AR kit app for iPad that they built for exclusively for the the new Visitor Center that's coming online next to Apple Park so if you go to California I'll have to try this thing out but I get some pictures was kind of difficult to take but um got some pictures of how it works it's really cool kind of a sense of what ER can do in the real world um but Apple Insider of course and then also I'm on Twitter at Daniel aaronn yeah we're on these podcasts occasionally fantastic thank you so much and if you enjoyed this podcast please feel free to go to iTunes and leave us a positive review we always like hearing from you and you can tweet me at V marks or send us an email we love getting list your questions come back join us next week we'll have more this has been another episode of the Apple Insider podcast\n"