"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enhello and welcome to the Apple Insider podcast this is your host Wesley Hillard uh today our sponsor is sandbox and I am joined by Mike worthley managing editor of Apple Insider my boss and former fellow Navy shipmate how's it going Mike uh it goes uh some of you know me from my two other appearances on the Apple Insider podcast over the last uh eight years and some of you have heard me on the space Javelin podcast uh departed of course but obviously we're here to talk about Apple Vision Pro yes so we've had this thing for um as we record about six days uh I've just released the early review as we're calling it it's a more or less a first look very in-depth as I could get with the hours and hours I've spent with this thing on my face but uh I'm pretty excited about it and uh I think people in the show might be tired of hearing me uh wax poetic about the Apple Vision Pro and so we brought you on to uh give us a little bit of the other side maybe or maybe you're as ecstatic as I am but no I'm not uh I'm going to be the voice of reason I used it over the summer at a large company to be unnamed forever for all time we will not speak its name and it was okay then it wasn't fantastic I understand where people are excited about it and I understand where people are excited it's the future of computing I do not think it's the future of computing anytime soon in fact I if this is the future Computing it will be after I'm gone I am in my mid-50s I I this isn't a 10-year thing this is a longer thing so this feels to me right now without going into the tech specs or anything like that because we're not really going to talk about that today this is a line in the sand because Apple decided that well we want to be part of the conversation we don't want meta to control the narrative around this platform in the future yes uh I mean famously I think it was Greg jaak who said he would never use the term metaverse and um meta like Facebook as we call them renamed their entire company around the idea of the metaverse and more or less kind of failed to really get that to take any traction and then here's Apple knocking on the door with the $3,500 headset and it's kind of interesting to see them come in so aggressively with this uh I guess advanced piece of Hardware it's like a meta Quest but glass in aluminum with much better specs but also much more expensive and running very proprietary hardware and I just wonder if Apple sees meta as a competitor or if it's the usual we're Apple so we're above everyone else kind of approach um they like to kind of live in that sphere and so far I tend to agree and disagree with you on this I we definitely differ a lot in our opinions on Apple Vision Pro I think this is a future not the future this is definitely another Fork so right we have the Mac Paradigm the classic um mouse keyboard monitor whatever uh we have the iPad Paradigm which I've been using for a couple years now of kind of the modular plug and play uh do what you need to do kind of computer and now we have this thing you wear on your face that can just take over your world that you live in and of course there's the iPhone Computing which is your casual uh computering for most of the World Vision proos I think going to be very much like the Mac that it's going to be very small and very few people are going to use it as a primary resource but I think this is also going to be big in the business World we've seen a few stories around that are you wearing it now why what is it giving you right now that something mostly just interest uh I'm I want to um live in this thing while I'm writing about it and learning about it I will be implementing this into my workflows if only because I'm again interested I want to be able to part of my job communicate um the use case but it's also just kind of interesting just strap this thing on and be in a different place or uh just have a better version of my office with Windows floating around me I mean it's not doing anything too different from what my iPad offered just giving it to me in a bigger display with different types of workflows so it's going to take a lot of experimentation and a lot of uh learning for me to figure out if this is actually going to be a work device or just a novelty I'm I'm going to roll back a little bit here so obviously I've been using computers all my life I started literally with an Apple 2 no EC plus none of that an Apple 2 at a very young age immediately saw the utility for Mac when I was exposed to it at the first Apple dealership I worked at in the mid 80s stayed with Mac for a long time immediately saw the use for iPods immediately saw the use for an iPhone immediately saw the use for an iPad saw a use for Apple watch I'm still only reluctantly wearing it because my cardiologist wants me to wear it there is no immediate use for this this is not a today platform this is a platform it is a stabin the dark it's definitely early days I mean I agree the utility it's just it's difficult to put into words I mean you you've used one you have one in your home um MH right now for example we're podcasting it's an audio sensitive environment I am facing a wall covered in soft paneling to prevent my voice from echoing too much and I have a I don't know large display let's say like a a 20-in display showing me Safari and notes floating in front of my face I don't have to turn my head I don't have to look away from the microphone I just have all the information I need for the show in front of me and I'm not reverberating off of a glass display that's 10 Ines in front of me so like I again it's just a niche use case but I feel like these kinds of things will will eek their themselves out like we need to see developers come in and show us what thing is for much like the Apple watch I mean I've had some push back from people uh with me classifying that way um in in our forums and online and it's just like it I don't understand how people's memories can be so short but that first Apple watch with watch OS 1.0 was not what we have today and it was fully streamed from the iPhone it was a terrible experience overall just was and apple just revamped it basically overnight with watchos 2.0 and changed Chang a lot of the operating system to be more localized I I get it but like we had a people button there was a but you press the side button and it launched a people picker like that that's crazy to me that that that's what they went with with the first iteration I I'm not going to say that did they change things they absolutely changed things but I'm not going to say that Apple didn't have Fitness in mind for instance they focused on fashion first and they invited an auditorium full of fashionistas and a lot of them were just straight given $10,000 gold Apple watches they had a giant Circle drawn on a map and fitness and health was inside of it but so was all these other things and then that Circle got smaller as people used it and was able to show this is what we're actually buying it for we're actually buying it for notifications primarily fitness and health and apple zoomed in on that very quickly um and it's funny because in the most apple way possible there's no real customization we get a handful of watch faces that are useful and complications make things a little more personal but we still don't have like a watch Face store and I think with Vision Pro it's going to be very similar they have this giant circle around it of we're spatial Computing these fancy buzzword that say basically okay yeah nothing yeah basically okay it could be VR it could be ar it depends on where the dial is and that's all very fun and whatever but like really it's it can be whatever you need it to be until you tell us what you want it to and I think that's the stage that Vision Pro is in right now well let's be real clear about what Vision Pro is right it is a it is a VR headset it is not an AR headset it is 100% a VR headset displays you are not seeing the outside you're looking at it through displays and that's okay right that works out pretty well in the Disney app with the theaters and so forth and if they don't add a a Muppet Theater I'm going to be very disappointed it it is such a hard it is for me at least it is such a hard product to look at and say what is this for and who is this for now and for the next five years I don't see how right now or for the foreseeable future apple is going to break the curse that meta Now talks about about where people will buy one use it for two hours put it back in the Box never to be seen absolutely uh is the price part of your calculation or is it the form factor it's a little bit of both the the Apple Vision Pro is priced the way it is because it needs to be priced the way it is so there's the 8020 rule right where to get 80% of the product takes 20% of the cost but to get to that extra 20% it's 80% of the cost and meta to date has been happy with sitting at that 80% of the line and that 20% of the cost thing Apple just said like they do sometimes we're just going full out we're going to deliver absolutely everything possible today and that costs that takes real money I mean if you um I I listened to the Vanity Fair review with the Apple news audio thing they do and it was interesting because uh Tim Cook was pretty open about yeah like a number of years ago I'm guessing around 2018 I was brought into this room and they strapped this giant heavy thing to my head that did not look anything like Vision Pro uh they had to do a bunch of things it was hot it was Heavy it was loud and finally there wasn't in front of him the room with some icons floating in front of him and he's just like Yep this is it this is what we need to do and they basically had to wait for the technology to catch up and I know there's a lot of uh again euphamism marketing speak in there of just you know how amazing and wonderful apple is of course because that's the CEO talking but I still thought it was an interesting story because it kind of happened with the Apple watch as well they kind of had an idea and had to wait to execute until things got cheap enough got easy enough to produce in Mass to create this and I think Vision Pro is the best they could do for now at this price point I mean they could have gone more expensive and you can always go more expensive and add more things to it but really I think this met in the middle and I don't know if I'm with you on the 10year window I I don't think we're going to have like these goggles or glasses that are perfectly transparent uh showing Advanced UI metrics and like basically Vision OS as it exists today in 5 or 10 years that that's a reach but I still think the pass through is going to get better I think the displays are going to get better and the overall headset's going to get lighter and I'd say by the second iteration we're going to see a pretty big Leap Forward not not astronomical but I still think that Vision Pro I think people are going to be surprised they're expecting Apple to come out the gate with this you know 2026 here's a $22,000 version I don't think it's going to be that soon or that fast uh or that cheap even uh I think Vision Pro 2 is still going to be around $3,500 that's just how Apple does it but we will get like an SE version at some point that lacks some Hardware whatever that might be but the ubiquity of this Hardware is what's going to create the ecosystem and I think maybe that's where you're coming from is there's no way for this to become widespread especially at this price point yeah there's no ubiquitousness for this product it it doesn't exist it won't exist it's well you know I say it won't exist it's not going to exist in my lifetime I don't think this is a big Computing paradigm shift this is bigger than a desktop computer to a laptop computer or a laptop computer to an iPhone or an iPad this is a way bigger shift than that it's a bigger shift even than Apple watch wearing a computer on your wrist I remember social norms having to shift when uh you know you would look at your watch uh when it was a mechanical watch uh it's a signal a social signal saying you're wasting my time or I'm ready to get out of here but now it's you're checking your notifications maybe it's still a sign of you being bored but um people had to start to understand oh they're wearing like a computer on their wrist they're basically checking their phone right now which in some circumstances is still very rude but imagine wearing an entire computer over your eyes and like humans being psychologically preconditioned to favor looking each other in the eye during conversation it kind of removes you from that like the um I I wrote a story uh right before Apple Vision Pro came out about the health limitations of wearing a headset and one of them they described was there's nothing you can do period about the social isol is the social isolation of wearing a headset there's nothing you can do like eyesight is terrible I I look dead my eyes are closed in mind because my persona's eyes just don't work it it's just this is not a good execution of this and personas are better in the beta in in the 1.1 beta they have you rescan your for your persona and they give you a couple of options like put it on the edge of a table or a shelf or something to keep it stable and that helps a great deal so they they've tuned that up a little bit and they are clear that personas are still in beta but man that isight just looks bad it just looks bad and it's the like a combination of issues the lenticular lens like if anyone's ever looked at like a a holographic Pokemon card or something like it's the it's the same technology it's basically shifting this view while you're looking at it so you can see it from different angles and it kind of yeah makes sense to your eyes I don't think that's the issue I think it really might be the personas and I think the software I mean the personas themselves getting better will help with that but it's never going to be human but I've also seen stories maybe people a little more accepting of it saying uh talking to their you know spouses or whatever saying I I respect the idea of being able to know when you're looking at me but I think maybe Apple going to realistic also hurt um they jump straight into uncanny valley territory I mentioned um I did the I uh Vision Pros podcast the other day we also recorded wearing the headsets uh doing it fully in Persona is completely broken did not work but the the video is out there if anyone wants to look for it um and I mentioned Heavy Rain on PlayStation 3 is what it reminds me of because that game was pushing the limits of the PlayStation 3 and they went full realistic graphics and these people had giant pores on their face but they still looked human but you could your brain just did something that says no I don't like this The Uncanny Valley was just very clear and this is the level that we're at now and I don't think it's going get super realistic very fast I mean there's improvements in 1.1 but it's still nowhere near where it needs to be I mean you don't even have ears properly with personas and I think that's just very odd I want to roll back a little bit to you were talking about the Apple watch uh just a minute or two ago and as humans we have been aware at least of the concept of tablet Computing since 2001 A Space Odyssey since the movie in 1969 maybe even before then in Star Trek they had those they had those huge clipboards that were they were walking around with and then there were the pads in Next Generation in in the late ' 80s and early 90s and so forth so at some level there have been Computing paradigms that Humanity has been familiar with for a long time so what is so Disney in the late 80s and early 90s had just these enormous virtual reality headsets which you also saw in lawnmower man that Stephen King adaptation in the 9s that's the closest that we've come really to any kind of mass media virtual reality Paradigm other than ready player one which the movie was terrible by the way the the book was okay but the movie was awful but I so I I think in many ways here that hurdle has to be overcome in addition to the VR hurdle in addition to the the VR curse that I spoke about about five minutes ago that's a CL and this is something this is something Apple has to earn they don't just get to throw this out and say behold the next generation of the iPhone or look it's a bigger iPhone when the iPad came out or they they don't get this is a hard cell I mean the the original computer replaced what a typewriter and then we jump to Jump Ahead a few years and something like the iPhone replaces many utilities calculators and music players what have you the iPad replaces paper right newspaper book what again just easy paradigms for the brain to understand on so on and so forth Apple watch watches Vision Pro replaces your eyes it replaces your view of the world and I guess that's one of those questions the classic Jurassic Park you know they I'm not even going to do the quote but like why why why bother why replace their world other than science fiction telling us oh this is something cool we want to do I mean other than ready player one or maybe Tony Stark and his and his helmet and the Iron Man seeing all these little world world augmented reality objects I mean obviously we don't have Holograms and this is the closest thing we can get to it by literally just wearing screens over eyes so we can project things into our space is this really the ultimate views did we did science fiction lead us the wrong direction and was Apple just so caught up in their own stuff that they didn't stop to think to say hey maybe we shouldn't do this kind of like folding technology like everyone's all about the foldable phones and tablets and I still believe it's a fad even though we still get rumors about it every couple weeks doesn't seem like something that really needs to exist something else is going to come along and be better than foldables ever thought of being and yeah yeah there's new rumors this week about Apple working on two foldable phones and honestly I think it's probably way more than that I think they probably had 20 or 30 different prototypes that they're considering but you know that brings us back to Apple Vision Pro and this is the first year I think that Apple has considered that the technology is mass-producible enough to give something at least acceptable to the public for me going on the folding phones thing is Microsoft's vision of it with two discret screens held together the hinge and actually using the hinge as a user interface element is probably the best way to do it because there are giant material problems with a plastic crease or or or glass crease just enormous fatigue failure problems just and mov parts I mean in an electronic object is just not done other than buttons maybe and even then those wear out after infinite presses there's difference between ductal failure and brittle failure and and so forth and West KN have obviously had extensive training on this but and I've got a I've got a minor in materials but so let's bring it around to we wrote opposing views uh before we even had our hands on this thing we wrote opposing view oh no before you had your hands on it you used it but I had mostly just heard of other people using it but um of course I I'm the optimistic one I'm definitely the Apple Fanboy of uh Apple Insider uh respectively but um it's just I'm always going to be excited about new technology it's not about whether Apple does it or not it's if it if someone does something really interesting I'm going to be all over it I mean I bought the little game boy thing that analog made because that's just exciting to me that someone's building this technology I just want this stuff to exist in the world so Apple making something like this is just interesting to me I bought psvr2 for the same reason I want to be able to dive into these new paradigms so of course I'm going to be optimistic and I basically wrote about how Vision Pro needed to exist today because Vision OS needs to be developed and apple can only get so far by developing something internally they need the input from external developers and users is do you think that they should have that that they should have released now is this too soon or should they have waited another generation internally I think that the product would be better received if it was a more socially acceptable product that didn't look like a pair of metal ski goggles I think that if they had something like the Rayband specs or you an advanced version of Google Glass like we had about 10 years ago which I is the end goal anyway right the end goal is to have everyone wearing a pair of sun a pair of sunglasses on their face that gives them the information that they would otherwise get by looking at their phone or looking at their Apple watch I cannot that is I cannot explain to you how excited I was again this is a decade ago but how just thrilled I was with that silly demo it fake video that Google put out of I don't know people walking around with Google Glass on showing what he saw if you remember it's where he like walks out on a rooftop and there's someone playing a ukulele it's very nonsensical not realistic at all it was very much uh created in a lab kind of video at the time I was working at a venue that was not Apple specific we had an apple arm but I was not working for it I was working for the gadgety side of it so I was fully aware of Google Glass its limitations I mean I was I was all in on Google at the time myself like is pre Apple days for me but like I was just excited I was like man I want I want Google Glass this looks so cool and of course finally the hardware actually launches and it's nothing like what they promised and uh people are mocked incessantly for it and I was in a program in the Navy where having that kind of stuff would be impossible anyway so it's was just like nope pass uh we'll see where it goes and then it just ultimately failed and disappeared um I well to be clear on this I don't think Apple over promised and underd delivered here I think they delivered exactly what they said they were going to deliver with the performance that they said it was going to deliver and so forth now it's it's got a good field of view it it's I've taken I so very specifically it was orange yarn a couple of cans of corn a couple of books and my calculator and the field of view on this uh on the horizontal plane is about is between 100 105 degrees I think it's closer to 103 I haven't done vertically yet um so what we're seeing with the headsets on is more or less what we were promised to WWDC so we'll check that off Apple could have done a better job though um portraying cuz when you're watching the demo videos they're all these beautiful 16x9 large videos of people showing what they see but it's not really what they see cuz it there's a mask over your face so you don't get that full experience you you can't do that though that that's that's impossible to do The Verge their review of the Apple Vision Pro is excellent but they had a simulated image in there of what you're seeing and it was kind of yeah I didn't like what something about the Verge just trigger something in my brain that just yells uh like Primal instinct or whatever but uh because they they didn't say anything wrong it's just how they say it and and no I agree that their rendition of this is what you see through it but really are you actually telling anyone what you're seeing because now you're showing it in a video that's probably in a popped out YouTube uh thing inside of another window on a screen and now people are looking like wow that's really tiny but it's like yeah but in real life that's an inch from your eyeballs so you have to like turn your head deliberate sure it's always in your periphery but again I I wrote I wrote about this and I don't know if you agree with this but um it's kind of like how you can always see your nose it disappears when you're not thinking about it and when I'm using Vision Pro I'm always aware of the things on my head of course it's big and kind of heavy yeah you can't be aware when you're really in the flow state of working typing looking at documents editing photos what have you inside of Vision Pro watching an immersive video and everything kind of disappears around that and until someone says hey you can see black around your head uh you're not really paying attention to that you're paying attention to the content so I don't want people to get too caught up on that but it it is there yeah so I obviously you can tell I'm conflicted about this people say I I got literal hate mail about you know me not being optimistic about Apple Vision Pro but I'm ha whatever stance you take you like it too much you hate it too much it's yeah it's not really a big deal but people like well I don't know how you can feel this way about Apple Vision Pro like well I can tell you why I feel this way about Apple Vision Pro we we're looking at already 10 years of another billion dollar trillion dollar company pouring billions of dollars into this and not getting any social traction whatsoever or social acceptability for the product that so Apple has two cells that they have to make they have to so I don't think Apple knows what the killer app for this is I think that they have well we could use it for this and we could use it for this and apple executive has said well we can see it in healthcare and we can see it manufacturing okay where Hollow lens is not a practical is not a practical piece of Hardware anymore Microsoft said well you know what we're kind of done here and they couldn't make it work and let's be clear Microsoft right now is the highest valued company in the world not Apple you for whatever that means right fake math with stocks yeah money on paper right so you've got that sell of what's it for but you also have to convince the world that yeah it's okay to wear this you don't look like a goon when you're wearing this product in your or maybe you do they never they never had to do it with any other product I think there's it's it's difficult again to describe I I think there's an issue with um trying to turn this into Mass Market because I don't think it ever will be it's just not any kind of headset is not mass Market not until it can be a literal pair of Ray bands that you put on your face uh probably you know 20 years from now uh we're usually optimistic about technology I mean I remember when we were writing about when Apple Insider not me was writing about project Titan in 2014 how Apple car was 2019 it's coming we'll see it at a car show in 2016 it's exciting right no it just didn't happen and M Cho has been talking about uh glasses and not just a headset but oh yeah yeah those they're thinking about a VR headset but it's really going to be a pair of glasses that's how he spoke about it it's like they kind of dabbled with VR but that's not really it what's the real product is putting a thing over your eyes and seeing the world around you as a set of glasses and that's coming in 2019 no sorry 2022 23 and so on and so forth until finally we got the VR headset and everyone's like oops it's actually a headset um I think we'll see some advancement in this very quickly to the point where it'll be better to wear around and I think there will be nerds and people with money who will undoubtedly wear these things in public especially once they're more smaller and more comfortable but we're never going to get to the iPhone point or the Apple watch Point even where one out of every 10 iPhone user has an Apple Watch or whatever and you just see them every where you see them in media we're not going to see TV shows where people are just walking around with vision Pros on their face but we'll see them with apple watches on their arm and I don't think it's meant to be that product it's I think it's meant to be the Mac Pro of Enthusiast it's meant to be we're going to sell a bunch of these not M millions billions but it's going to be they're they're going to be out there we're going to have to cater to them it's a different cell but that's a problem in its own because then you have to say well if it's going to be a smaller Market how do we convince developers to care that's the problem with things like YouTube and Spotify saying we don't really need a product here at launch cuz 200,000 people just isn't enough for us to bother we deal in the millions not in the hundreds of thousands this week's episode is brought to you by the email service sanbox now I actually love email I realize I might be alone there but it is my absolute favorite way to communicate only lately I've taken on 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training is effectively limited by the battery pack that's attached to it but the the bigger limitation I think is physical I I I don't think you're going to want to have a student practice two hours of surgery with the Apple Vision Pro on so I mean there's there's a lot going on here and there's still a lot more people on need to talk to and interestingly none of them want to go on the record as so and so from so and so company I have to refer to them as a large education provider or a large entertainment company or something like that because they don't want to invoke the ire of Apple but it it's there is an incredible amount of skepticism that apple to date has not done anything about there was no effective advertising for this between WWDC in the release and even the advertising now is very much consumer based and not Enterprise based I think Apple knows what they have I don't think they're for a company that's normally very loud they're very conservative with the Apple Vision Pro and I I think I like that I mean people were mad that there wasn't this big event where Tim Cook walks out on a stage wearing one or whatever I I don't think it needs that or warrants that because again this is going to be so low Market especially for this first version that Apple really needs to focus on selling to the Enthusiast selling to the people with money getting it out there and developing the next version and getting Vision OS iterated and I don't think any of those things are necessarily bad and for someone like me who's an Enthusiast who wants to use this thing who will go out of their way to incorporate this in their workflow unnecessarily everything I was doing before wasn't broken I didn't need to change anything Vision Pro didn't come along and and suddenly tell me everything you're doing is wrong and you need to change what you're doing in fact Vision Pro's honestly doing the same thing just wearing something on my face um so I think you're right here apple has a lot of convincing to do but I think the problem with our discussion or any discussion being had over this device is we have no idea how Apple sees this device as far as success goes what are what are these success metrics driving this product I I don't think they care I they've got they've got money to wait and that's what I said in my piece about this is there's going to be a lot of people talking about success or failure you knowe I haven't said anything that this product's going toly I'm not going to give you a YouTube face and say the Apple Vision Pro is a failure because it's not it's doing exceptionally well for what I mean if the numbers that we are hearing are true I mean even at 200,000 now 600,000 by the end of the year I think that's pretty amazing for a $3,500 face computer well that makes it a $750 million business on its own today not in the end of the year today it's a it's a 7 I did some naum math that may or may not be totally accurate but I mean that puts it uh within 10% % of the the launch Weekend sales now we're a week away so we have no idea what it looks like now but that launch weekend of approximately 200,000 sales puts it within 10% of meta's entire Quest 2 lineup that has been out since what 20 well to be clear that puts it within the dollar value of those headsets it doesn't put it within doesn't put it within the total sales volume which is about 20 million which meta considers a failure meta also needs the entire planet to be bor creatures that just feed them information for them to make money so 20 million of course is going to be a failure because they need it to be more like 200 million so like with Apple TV Apple will pour money into this in the interest of cross-licensing just like it app Apple TV feeds Services Services come from the iPhone the iPhone feeds Services everything is this web there's nothing independent inside Apple the Apple Vision Pro is not a stand blown device you at the very least you have to have an iPhone if you're going to order it online to buy it and by itself it is kind of a homeless product what's the uh what's the word every everyone keeps repeating it um Escape patch the Mac being able to be a window inside of Vision Pro is an escape patch for the product because basically as soon as you run into a wall now you just turn to your Mac it's amazing that the display can be in here I mean we're recording this podcast in my Mac to my left inside the Vision Pro and I'm able to see quick time and the recording and everything and that's all well and good but again escape hatch I'm not recording this podcast with the Vision Pro I mean I never I won't be able to period it's just not possible I can't attach a quality microphone to this device so well you can't do it yet here's the thing so you've got that developer strap right which doesn't do a thing it is a usb2 device that our friends over at 9 to5 said gives you a slightly more stable uh Mac screen which I've not found to be the case I it seems the same to me it it and the pins behind that there are more pins on that headphone connector on that on that ear strap connector than there are an USBC cable or Thunderbolt cable now there's no way for me to know right now what's on the other side of that the electronics controlling that and the iFix it tearon doesn't really talk about it that much but there's maybe there's something more coming as far as strap peripherals go maybe there's something faster coming I would very much like the Apple Vision Pro to be able to take an h2i in on USBC alt mode I would very much like that because that would make that product an incredibly more flexible product I mean I I don't think it's coming mind you I think Apple will control this the same way they control everything else which is good and they also need a a selling point for the next product of course I mean when everyone who just bought one needs a reason to buy the second one because that's the only Market Apple has right now at this point uh and them coming out and saying yeah and this one you can dock it to Thunderbolt and now you have everything you connect to Thunderbolt inside the Vision Pro um and that would be interesting um but that's not going to happen with this version I mean probably I mean I I I agree that the developer straps a potential input I mean we can see updates do all kinds of crazy stuff they added mouse support to iPad through a software update which is still very weird to me just to think about like oh this thing just impossible could not do before is now here because they updated the firmware in the operating system and I mean so we don't know what Vision OS is going to look like a year from now and uh that's exciting to me and I think I don't know do you have any last thoughts on Vision prob before we cover a few other topics well on my hierarchy of needs as far as Apple products go I have always loved my Mac there have been only a handful of Macs I've only kind of been iffy on like for instance the the Apple silicon Mac Pro is doesn't need to exist the I my iPad I love more than my iPhone I love my iPhone more than I love my Apple watch and somewhere further down way below that is the Apple Vision Pro this is a product that I own because I work here if I did not work for Apple Insider I wouldn't I wouldn't have bought this for myself this is I would so it launched I was excited about it I said wow that looks pretty cool and then I used it in over the summer I used it at a large company that I have contacts with over the summer and it's a little better now than the software was then it's not hugely better and I still want to like it I still want to like it a great deal but looking at it and even after playing with the Disney Plus app even after playing with some stuff that some of the people I've spoken with have built around it which are complex mechanical and fluid flow systems and you can manipulate the system and so forth and see how the system operates with multiple people in the space it is still not a product for me am I upset that Apple made it no I'm not upset that Apple made it it am I ever going to call it a failure no because it's not it is it's better than my Vive it's better than my index it it's better than the other virtual reality stuff that I've used but it is also not a today product this like I said if this is a major Computing Paradigm it I will be gone before that happens so I think Apple could have waited I think they could have waited another five years for Hardware to say this is what we want instead of doing this today which so developer kits let's talk about developer kits for a quick minute the developer kit for Intel was a beige box PC the development box for Apple silicon Mac was a Mac Mini with an a12 board in it they they were slapped together pieces of Hardware to make a developer kit I think that Apple could have used the next three years as a m share kind of thing and enthusiasm kind of thing and said WWDC this is our developer kit for where we want to be in 10 years and developers we can we can sell it to you now but this it is not going to ship in this fancy aluminum container it's going to be much sleeker it's going to be much Slimmer and it's going to be much more performant and I think they would have got exactly what they what they're getting now I mean I agree but also think that if Apple waited three more years this probably would have never shipped uh I think it needed to ship now to exist at all because at some point there's going to there's like a a meeting you know ship whether or not you're going to ship with time and once you cross that line you're never looking back there's another project there's another thing to look at there's an Apple car there's some other Paradigm to chase after and if we were ever going to get this it's now and I don't think apple has a thankfully they're not like Google they're not going to just abandon this and we'll get Vision OS 2.0 and then never see anything again we're not going to get people I know Dan wrote a story about um Dan Dan Aaron dilder wrote a story about who's make immersive experiences for Apple Vision Pro and it's a it's a wider piece than just that Focus point but focusing on that title alone um I think D people like John favro who made the uh prehistoric Planet are interested in making something for this I just out of the interest interest of art yes it's not going to you know be a blockbuster uh millions of dollars box office uh movie theater type thing but I think people will still want to make things for this product we'll see developers make more apps and things for it and I mean again Apple Vision Pro doesn't exist in a vacuum other headsets already exist other experiences already exist that can be ported I mean psvr has similar things to encounter dinosaurs where you just kind of look around and things are happening around you and you don't really interact at all um and those could easily come to Vision Pro and I think a lot of things is Apple really needs to do the thing they're bad at and they need to evangelize they need to go out they need to touch base and say hey bring your thing to our platform we'll give you money and uh hopefully they're doing that here instead of just doing it all in apple music because it seems to be the only place they're doing it anymore um but a closing thought on Vision Pro before we catch a couple more things I want to say from my point of view I most I pretty much agree with everything you're saying like I can be excited and have the opinion that these are early days and a lot of things need to be fixed um at the same time right but uh I'm also a little less down on the idea of this thing doesn't have really a key use case I think if you're someone who wants the best entertainment device you can buy Personal yes you're private you're alone this is this is it I mean no amount of money you throw at a TV in a sound system is going to get you the same experiences going into full immersive mode and watching a movie in Mount Hood At Night at on a 150 ft display with spatial audio surrounding you like you're just you're not going to recreate that life and while it's an illusion it's a convincing illusion and um it's only going to get better from here I I think the killer app here is not a specific use but it's just the idea it's entertainment and that goes against everything I said about it being uh useful as a work device but I think that's okay it's just like the iPad the iPad is very much a consumption device for most people and it's an amazing consumption device and I think Vision Pro can do that too and for me will I be working in this we'll see I mean Mike will be disappearing into his work cave after this episode and William and I will be discussing this at length but I think I'm going to be implementing this into my workflows I've wore this for multiple 8 hour shifts taking breaks only to eat and I'll take it off and stretch my legs I'm not wearing it for eight hours straight believe me um and that's I I guess I have one last question for you what do you think about the Comfort everyone's complain one person even said they were in pain during their 30-minute demo wearing the Vision Pro do you think about all that so the solo Loop is a nice thing but what I like what I saw on Twitter is somebody literally zip tied two of them together one over the top of their head one over the back of their head I that would have been way better I I'm not having any problems with this but I also like I told you I I have the index and I have the Vive so I I think that it is very much user to user there are there are Health considerations around it I wrote a piece about it we'll link it in the show notes they and people already fighting money on it and say it doesn't exist it absolutely exists there are there are neurological issues with pulsewidth modulation is used in O in OLED displays so there there's a lot to consider on this and if you are uncomfortable with it or if you do start feeling weird wearing the headset take it off don't don't don't push through this is not a face wash your visor yeah and to that end I kind of wish the magnets were a little bit stronger on that because I I they keep on popping off just with the lightest of handling and that they need to be a little bit more resistant to that but yeah just be careful just it it's a new computer par it's new Computing Paradigm maybe it's interesting yes try it get those demos at the Apple Store and give it a shot and you and Apple's got a very generous return on everything they sell so if you get it home you say oh my this is a waste of money then just bring it back this is definitely a product you have to use and I had something and it is now gone so we'll move on yep so a couple quick things we've got a few minutes left here at the end and uh so AI right I slowly at the beginning of the AI movement I would curse and stomp my feet and say I'm never going to call it AI because it is the dumbest term ever existent but language changes so I'm willing to say AI as wrong as the term might be and I I I guess I want your your two-minute opinion on the entire generative AI world's going to end Terminator nonsense that we have going on in the world right now ai is a tool that we need to figure out how to use well and here's the problem with generative AI is it started out good because it had good material to start with it had non- AI generated content to start with and now we're kind of down in this pit where it's feeding off itself and generating garbage and the same tools that AI will need to use to figure out what's AI hallucinations to draw from and what are human generated stuff to draw from will need to be implemented so actual people can determine what's AI generated content and what's generated by human for education for a whole host other things I think we're in the very early days um we're not looking at Skynet here we're not looking at anything like that uh the as far as the stock analyst bitching that Apple doesn't have anything generative AI so we're going to punish them in notes is idiotic it it's Tim given everything is Apple Apple has done Apple was not first to tablets they were not first to SmartWatches they were not first to personal Computing they were close to first to personal Computing they were you they were not first a lot of things but when they delivered here it is and it was great and all of a sudden stop I plead you stock analyst stop being dumb about this company you know how it works you know you know that they're not first out of the gate uh I I would say yeah like as I've discussed at length before uh AI Apple wasn't first to machine learning which is the real term for this that I will always hold on to uh I mean we saw machine learning the the keyboard on the original iPhone learned as you typed to know where your giant thumbs are going to press a key I mean your finger would land on F but it knew you that you meant a different key right and that so stuff like that has existed for a long time and before iPhone I'm sure there was other examples of that but I'm not old enough to know um but yes now we have the buzzword AI and it's powerful enough and and and persistent enough with these stock market analysts and CNBC and what have you that even Tim Cook I guess had a prepared statement during the earnings call because believe me that wasn't off the cuff he didn't just accidentally say something where he actually mentions a more AI things for from Apple are coming in 2024 and uh I found that very interesting for an earnings call well it's that is specifically a backhand at the analyst saying that Apple isn't doing anything that is the target market for that call and I I just I don't know what it's going to look like I still don't believe they're going to make Siri into a chat bot I don't think it's going to be this thing that you're going to feed random questions into and have it return hallucinations um I think Apple's going to be more careful than that uh we've seen them experimenting in the space by doing um open- Source projects with uh image uh generation and stuff like that we there's a few stories on that this week but um it's going to be a consumer product then all everything that they've announced so far has been mostly developer based or just interest based um but I don't think we're going to get a Bard now Gemini I I wish they'd just land on a name and stick with it Google but um they're not going to create a thing like that I don't think I think it's going to be more of this uh what's it the the text uh autocorrect stuff like where it's just part of the system uh kind of invisible you don't even see it you you have to go look at the notes or watching an Apple event where they actually describe it as generative AI or whatever as this feature but like the user is not going to know that they're just going to be using the device and it's going to do these things for them and they're not even GNA have to think about it like automatically editing photos or you know learning how you talk so it doesn't constantly correct curse words into the wrong thing um all very interesting maybe a little boring but I think that's Apple's take on this I think they're going to play the safe card here I what do you think they're I don't think they're going to come out with some crazy thing in WWDC no I I don't I don't think so so this week Apple released a a native language image generation model that if you're a developer you can go Implement right now if you're so inclined uh we have pieces on that as well it it's what Apple's going to do is going to be user Centric it's not going to be nerd specific it it they're going to make it available to as many people as possible and it will be retroactive for a lot of their older Hardware because you just have to look at mention of things like neural engines and things like that for the last six years so it has always been clear that this day was coming that this release of generative AI products is coming it has always been clear so why you know like I said why folks like analysts and so forth haven't picked what about the government you think they're going to be Our Saviors in this no I I I I just had a profanity Lac tiate in my head which I immediately dumped and just said no it's the government doesn't bother themselves with educating themselves and Technology beyond what they can use for a politically Laden spe my favorite thing about this stuff is all right so we have a story today um Apple's joining uh one of those groups that there's a thousand of them uh for Technology and Safety and concerns and we're going to field everything and fix the world or whatever the government does um but my favorite part about all of this is uh when there's a quote and it's President Biden says it's like he didn't say that he has he's like a writer guy who goes and researches this um but anyway it's just like yeah we're we're committed to making sure that the AI doesn't become dangerous or do anything we don't want it to do and it's like but you can't you can't do promise any of that the people making the AI stuff doesn't even know how it works it's all black box it's just well well and with this is this group has no teeth there's no force of law behind it there that is going to have to require a functioning government which we do not have it will require lawmakers who actually educate themselves on the tops hand which they do not do I mean so they's going to be not going to beun function legislation about this for a decade or more yeah this is the same government that tried to destroy the open internet in the name of safety right I mean uh what was what What's the phrase I'm looking for more specific uh it's on the tip of my tongue and yes it doesn't matter they years and years ago these politicians decided that they were so smart that they could do away with the Department that educated them on things right they weren't smart then they're not smart yeah it's it's just always funny to me it's you know Apple joins new new government sanctioned thing where they promise they're going to fix the world and meanwhile over on X it's the most popular app on uh the app store again can you guess why do you know it was number 24 or 45 or something a about a week ago but what could have changed in the last seven days that would make X the number one app in the app store generative images of famous artists that are indecent have been flooding that platform and they have no idea what to do about it none and government oversight isn't going to fix that right and it it's just I don't know it's what is Apple going to do when they create this thing and someone makes something terrible with it and it's going to be a PR nightmare we're going to be riding about it for weeks and someone's going to get sued all because nobody knows how any of this works and I'm still very doubtful I think this is going to be one of those footnotes in history where it's like you remember nfts or cryptocurrency yeah AI is kind of the same idea they're just going to they'll change the name again in 5 years to call it something else you know fancy robot name whatever and so they can get away from Ai and everything terrible it did in the last three years but this technolog is not going anywhere it's just going to be used differently and what it's doing now is just it's not very good and I think that's everything for the uh Apple Insider podcast this week and thank you sbox for sponsoring this episode thanks everyone for listening if uh you want to hear more about Apple Insider make sure you visit our website or listen to The homekit Insider podcast which I do with Andrew every week otherwise there might be a guest and there's also the Apple Insider daily podcast where you can catch up in about 10 minutes or less on everything happening in Apple news and I can be found on midon primarily I still have a Twitter but I'm not really there if you notify me I can get back to you but just find me on mcadon or find my email at the top of all of my articles Mike where can uh people find you on the internet I mean appal cider that's where I'm at yeah he's floating around pretty straightforward you can you can find him on Twitter as well if you want to I mean you can but I get a little salty over there sometimes so maybe not right right but where are you not salty no I'm salty everywhere I mean so it's the genuine me worthly experience no matter where you find me yeah all right well thanks again for listening and we'll see you guys next week long everybodyhello and welcome to the Apple Insider podcast this is your host Wesley Hillard uh today our sponsor is sandbox and I am joined by Mike worthley managing editor of Apple Insider my boss and former fellow Navy shipmate how's it going Mike uh it goes uh some of you know me from my two other appearances on the Apple Insider podcast over the last uh eight years and some of you have heard me on the space Javelin podcast uh departed of course but obviously we're here to talk about Apple Vision Pro yes so we've had this thing for um as we record about six days uh I've just released the early review as we're calling it it's a more or less a first look very in-depth as I could get with the hours and hours I've spent with this thing on my face but uh I'm pretty excited about it and uh I think people in the show might be tired of hearing me uh wax poetic about the Apple Vision Pro and so we brought you on to uh give us a little bit of the other side maybe or maybe you're as ecstatic as I am but no I'm not uh I'm going to be the voice of reason I used it over the summer at a large company to be unnamed forever for all time we will not speak its name and it was okay then it wasn't fantastic I understand where people are excited about it and I understand where people are excited it's the future of computing I do not think it's the future of computing anytime soon in fact I if this is the future Computing it will be after I'm gone I am in my mid-50s I I this isn't a 10-year thing this is a longer thing so this feels to me right now without going into the tech specs or anything like that because we're not really going to talk about that today this is a line in the sand because Apple decided that well we want to be part of the conversation we don't want meta to control the narrative around this platform in the future yes uh I mean famously I think it was Greg jaak who said he would never use the term metaverse and um meta like Facebook as we call them renamed their entire company around the idea of the metaverse and more or less kind of failed to really get that to take any traction and then here's Apple knocking on the door with the $3,500 headset and it's kind of interesting to see them come in so aggressively with this uh I guess advanced piece of Hardware it's like a meta Quest but glass in aluminum with much better specs but also much more expensive and running very proprietary hardware and I just wonder if Apple sees meta as a competitor or if it's the usual we're Apple so we're above everyone else kind of approach um they like to kind of live in that sphere and so far I tend to agree and disagree with you on this I we definitely differ a lot in our opinions on Apple Vision Pro I think this is a future not the future this is definitely another Fork so right we have the Mac Paradigm the classic um mouse keyboard monitor whatever uh we have the iPad Paradigm which I've been using for a couple years now of kind of the modular plug and play uh do what you need to do kind of computer and now we have this thing you wear on your face that can just take over your world that you live in and of course there's the iPhone Computing which is your casual uh computering for most of the World Vision proos I think going to be very much like the Mac that it's going to be very small and very few people are going to use it as a primary resource but I think this is also going to be big in the business World we've seen a few stories around that are you wearing it now why what is it giving you right now that something mostly just interest uh I'm I want to um live in this thing while I'm writing about it and learning about it I will be implementing this into my workflows if only because I'm again interested I want to be able to part of my job communicate um the use case but it's also just kind of interesting just strap this thing on and be in a different place or uh just have a better version of my office with Windows floating around me I mean it's not doing anything too different from what my iPad offered just giving it to me in a bigger display with different types of workflows so it's going to take a lot of experimentation and a lot of uh learning for me to figure out if this is actually going to be a work device or just a novelty I'm I'm going to roll back a little bit here so obviously I've been using computers all my life I started literally with an Apple 2 no EC plus none of that an Apple 2 at a very young age immediately saw the utility for Mac when I was exposed to it at the first Apple dealership I worked at in the mid 80s stayed with Mac for a long time immediately saw the use for iPods immediately saw the use for an iPhone immediately saw the use for an iPad saw a use for Apple watch I'm still only reluctantly wearing it because my cardiologist wants me to wear it there is no immediate use for this this is not a today platform this is a platform it is a stabin the dark it's definitely early days I mean I agree the utility it's just it's difficult to put into words I mean you you've used one you have one in your home um MH right now for example we're podcasting it's an audio sensitive environment I am facing a wall covered in soft paneling to prevent my voice from echoing too much and I have a I don't know large display let's say like a a 20-in display showing me Safari and notes floating in front of my face I don't have to turn my head I don't have to look away from the microphone I just have all the information I need for the show in front of me and I'm not reverberating off of a glass display that's 10 Ines in front of me so like I again it's just a niche use case but I feel like these kinds of things will will eek their themselves out like we need to see developers come in and show us what thing is for much like the Apple watch I mean I've had some push back from people uh with me classifying that way um in in our forums and online and it's just like it I don't understand how people's memories can be so short but that first Apple watch with watch OS 1.0 was not what we have today and it was fully streamed from the iPhone it was a terrible experience overall just was and apple just revamped it basically overnight with watchos 2.0 and changed Chang a lot of the operating system to be more localized I I get it but like we had a people button there was a but you press the side button and it launched a people picker like that that's crazy to me that that that's what they went with with the first iteration I I'm not going to say that did they change things they absolutely changed things but I'm not going to say that Apple didn't have Fitness in mind for instance they focused on fashion first and they invited an auditorium full of fashionistas and a lot of them were just straight given $10,000 gold Apple watches they had a giant Circle drawn on a map and fitness and health was inside of it but so was all these other things and then that Circle got smaller as people used it and was able to show this is what we're actually buying it for we're actually buying it for notifications primarily fitness and health and apple zoomed in on that very quickly um and it's funny because in the most apple way possible there's no real customization we get a handful of watch faces that are useful and complications make things a little more personal but we still don't have like a watch Face store and I think with Vision Pro it's going to be very similar they have this giant circle around it of we're spatial Computing these fancy buzzword that say basically okay yeah nothing yeah basically okay it could be VR it could be ar it depends on where the dial is and that's all very fun and whatever but like really it's it can be whatever you need it to be until you tell us what you want it to and I think that's the stage that Vision Pro is in right now well let's be real clear about what Vision Pro is right it is a it is a VR headset it is not an AR headset it is 100% a VR headset displays you are not seeing the outside you're looking at it through displays and that's okay right that works out pretty well in the Disney app with the theaters and so forth and if they don't add a a Muppet Theater I'm going to be very disappointed it it is such a hard it is for me at least it is such a hard product to look at and say what is this for and who is this for now and for the next five years I don't see how right now or for the foreseeable future apple is going to break the curse that meta Now talks about about where people will buy one use it for two hours put it back in the Box never to be seen absolutely uh is the price part of your calculation or is it the form factor it's a little bit of both the the Apple Vision Pro is priced the way it is because it needs to be priced the way it is so there's the 8020 rule right where to get 80% of the product takes 20% of the cost but to get to that extra 20% it's 80% of the cost and meta to date has been happy with sitting at that 80% of the line and that 20% of the cost thing Apple just said like they do sometimes we're just going full out we're going to deliver absolutely everything possible today and that costs that takes real money I mean if you um I I listened to the Vanity Fair review with the Apple news audio thing they do and it was interesting because uh Tim Cook was pretty open about yeah like a number of years ago I'm guessing around 2018 I was brought into this room and they strapped this giant heavy thing to my head that did not look anything like Vision Pro uh they had to do a bunch of things it was hot it was Heavy it was loud and finally there wasn't in front of him the room with some icons floating in front of him and he's just like Yep this is it this is what we need to do and they basically had to wait for the technology to catch up and I know there's a lot of uh again euphamism marketing speak in there of just you know how amazing and wonderful apple is of course because that's the CEO talking but I still thought it was an interesting story because it kind of happened with the Apple watch as well they kind of had an idea and had to wait to execute until things got cheap enough got easy enough to produce in Mass to create this and I think Vision Pro is the best they could do for now at this price point I mean they could have gone more expensive and you can always go more expensive and add more things to it but really I think this met in the middle and I don't know if I'm with you on the 10year window I I don't think we're going to have like these goggles or glasses that are perfectly transparent uh showing Advanced UI metrics and like basically Vision OS as it exists today in 5 or 10 years that that's a reach but I still think the pass through is going to get better I think the displays are going to get better and the overall headset's going to get lighter and I'd say by the second iteration we're going to see a pretty big Leap Forward not not astronomical but I still think that Vision Pro I think people are going to be surprised they're expecting Apple to come out the gate with this you know 2026 here's a $22,000 version I don't think it's going to be that soon or that fast uh or that cheap even uh I think Vision Pro 2 is still going to be around $3,500 that's just how Apple does it but we will get like an SE version at some point that lacks some Hardware whatever that might be but the ubiquity of this Hardware is what's going to create the ecosystem and I think maybe that's where you're coming from is there's no way for this to become widespread especially at this price point yeah there's no ubiquitousness for this product it it doesn't exist it won't exist it's well you know I say it won't exist it's not going to exist in my lifetime I don't think this is a big Computing paradigm shift this is bigger than a desktop computer to a laptop computer or a laptop computer to an iPhone or an iPad this is a way bigger shift than that it's a bigger shift even than Apple watch wearing a computer on your wrist I remember social norms having to shift when uh you know you would look at your watch uh when it was a mechanical watch uh it's a signal a social signal saying you're wasting my time or I'm ready to get out of here but now it's you're checking your notifications maybe it's still a sign of you being bored but um people had to start to understand oh they're wearing like a computer on their wrist they're basically checking their phone right now which in some circumstances is still very rude but imagine wearing an entire computer over your eyes and like humans being psychologically preconditioned to favor looking each other in the eye during conversation it kind of removes you from that like the um I I wrote a story uh right before Apple Vision Pro came out about the health limitations of wearing a headset and one of them they described was there's nothing you can do period about the social isol is the social isolation of wearing a headset there's nothing you can do like eyesight is terrible I I look dead my eyes are closed in mind because my persona's eyes just don't work it it's just this is not a good execution of this and personas are better in the beta in in the 1.1 beta they have you rescan your for your persona and they give you a couple of options like put it on the edge of a table or a shelf or something to keep it stable and that helps a great deal so they they've tuned that up a little bit and they are clear that personas are still in beta but man that isight just looks bad it just looks bad and it's the like a combination of issues the lenticular lens like if anyone's ever looked at like a a holographic Pokemon card or something like it's the it's the same technology it's basically shifting this view while you're looking at it so you can see it from different angles and it kind of yeah makes sense to your eyes I don't think that's the issue I think it really might be the personas and I think the software I mean the personas themselves getting better will help with that but it's never going to be human but I've also seen stories maybe people a little more accepting of it saying uh talking to their you know spouses or whatever saying I I respect the idea of being able to know when you're looking at me but I think maybe Apple going to realistic also hurt um they jump straight into uncanny valley territory I mentioned um I did the I uh Vision Pros podcast the other day we also recorded wearing the headsets uh doing it fully in Persona is completely broken did not work but the the video is out there if anyone wants to look for it um and I mentioned Heavy Rain on PlayStation 3 is what it reminds me of because that game was pushing the limits of the PlayStation 3 and they went full realistic graphics and these people had giant pores on their face but they still looked human but you could your brain just did something that says no I don't like this The Uncanny Valley was just very clear and this is the level that we're at now and I don't think it's going get super realistic very fast I mean there's improvements in 1.1 but it's still nowhere near where it needs to be I mean you don't even have ears properly with personas and I think that's just very odd I want to roll back a little bit to you were talking about the Apple watch uh just a minute or two ago and as humans we have been aware at least of the concept of tablet Computing since 2001 A Space Odyssey since the movie in 1969 maybe even before then in Star Trek they had those they had those huge clipboards that were they were walking around with and then there were the pads in Next Generation in in the late ' 80s and early 90s and so forth so at some level there have been Computing paradigms that Humanity has been familiar with for a long time so what is so Disney in the late 80s and early 90s had just these enormous virtual reality headsets which you also saw in lawnmower man that Stephen King adaptation in the 9s that's the closest that we've come really to any kind of mass media virtual reality Paradigm other than ready player one which the movie was terrible by the way the the book was okay but the movie was awful but I so I I think in many ways here that hurdle has to be overcome in addition to the VR hurdle in addition to the the VR curse that I spoke about about five minutes ago that's a CL and this is something this is something Apple has to earn they don't just get to throw this out and say behold the next generation of the iPhone or look it's a bigger iPhone when the iPad came out or they they don't get this is a hard cell I mean the the original computer replaced what a typewriter and then we jump to Jump Ahead a few years and something like the iPhone replaces many utilities calculators and music players what have you the iPad replaces paper right newspaper book what again just easy paradigms for the brain to understand on so on and so forth Apple watch watches Vision Pro replaces your eyes it replaces your view of the world and I guess that's one of those questions the classic Jurassic Park you know they I'm not even going to do the quote but like why why why bother why replace their world other than science fiction telling us oh this is something cool we want to do I mean other than ready player one or maybe Tony Stark and his and his helmet and the Iron Man seeing all these little world world augmented reality objects I mean obviously we don't have Holograms and this is the closest thing we can get to it by literally just wearing screens over eyes so we can project things into our space is this really the ultimate views did we did science fiction lead us the wrong direction and was Apple just so caught up in their own stuff that they didn't stop to think to say hey maybe we shouldn't do this kind of like folding technology like everyone's all about the foldable phones and tablets and I still believe it's a fad even though we still get rumors about it every couple weeks doesn't seem like something that really needs to exist something else is going to come along and be better than foldables ever thought of being and yeah yeah there's new rumors this week about Apple working on two foldable phones and honestly I think it's probably way more than that I think they probably had 20 or 30 different prototypes that they're considering but you know that brings us back to Apple Vision Pro and this is the first year I think that Apple has considered that the technology is mass-producible enough to give something at least acceptable to the public for me going on the folding phones thing is Microsoft's vision of it with two discret screens held together the hinge and actually using the hinge as a user interface element is probably the best way to do it because there are giant material problems with a plastic crease or or or glass crease just enormous fatigue failure problems just and mov parts I mean in an electronic object is just not done other than buttons maybe and even then those wear out after infinite presses there's difference between ductal failure and brittle failure and and so forth and West KN have obviously had extensive training on this but and I've got a I've got a minor in materials but so let's bring it around to we wrote opposing views uh before we even had our hands on this thing we wrote opposing view oh no before you had your hands on it you used it but I had mostly just heard of other people using it but um of course I I'm the optimistic one I'm definitely the Apple Fanboy of uh Apple Insider uh respectively but um it's just I'm always going to be excited about new technology it's not about whether Apple does it or not it's if it if someone does something really interesting I'm going to be all over it I mean I bought the little game boy thing that analog made because that's just exciting to me that someone's building this technology I just want this stuff to exist in the world so Apple making something like this is just interesting to me I bought psvr2 for the same reason I want to be able to dive into these new paradigms so of course I'm going to be optimistic and I basically wrote about how Vision Pro needed to exist today because Vision OS needs to be developed and apple can only get so far by developing something internally they need the input from external developers and users is do you think that they should have that that they should have released now is this too soon or should they have waited another generation internally I think that the product would be better received if it was a more socially acceptable product that didn't look like a pair of metal ski goggles I think that if they had something like the Rayband specs or you an advanced version of Google Glass like we had about 10 years ago which I is the end goal anyway right the end goal is to have everyone wearing a pair of sun a pair of sunglasses on their face that gives them the information that they would otherwise get by looking at their phone or looking at their Apple watch I cannot that is I cannot explain to you how excited I was again this is a decade ago but how just thrilled I was with that silly demo it fake video that Google put out of I don't know people walking around with Google Glass on showing what he saw if you remember it's where he like walks out on a rooftop and there's someone playing a ukulele it's very nonsensical not realistic at all it was very much uh created in a lab kind of video at the time I was working at a venue that was not Apple specific we had an apple arm but I was not working for it I was working for the gadgety side of it so I was fully aware of Google Glass its limitations I mean I was I was all in on Google at the time myself like is pre Apple days for me but like I was just excited I was like man I want I want Google Glass this looks so cool and of course finally the hardware actually launches and it's nothing like what they promised and uh people are mocked incessantly for it and I was in a program in the Navy where having that kind of stuff would be impossible anyway so it's was just like nope pass uh we'll see where it goes and then it just ultimately failed and disappeared um I well to be clear on this I don't think Apple over promised and underd delivered here I think they delivered exactly what they said they were going to deliver with the performance that they said it was going to deliver and so forth now it's it's got a good field of view it it's I've taken I so very specifically it was orange yarn a couple of cans of corn a couple of books and my calculator and the field of view on this uh on the horizontal plane is about is between 100 105 degrees I think it's closer to 103 I haven't done vertically yet um so what we're seeing with the headsets on is more or less what we were promised to WWDC so we'll check that off Apple could have done a better job though um portraying cuz when you're watching the demo videos they're all these beautiful 16x9 large videos of people showing what they see but it's not really what they see cuz it there's a mask over your face so you don't get that full experience you you can't do that though that that's that's impossible to do The Verge their review of the Apple Vision Pro is excellent but they had a simulated image in there of what you're seeing and it was kind of yeah I didn't like what something about the Verge just trigger something in my brain that just yells uh like Primal instinct or whatever but uh because they they didn't say anything wrong it's just how they say it and and no I agree that their rendition of this is what you see through it but really are you actually telling anyone what you're seeing because now you're showing it in a video that's probably in a popped out YouTube uh thing inside of another window on a screen and now people are looking like wow that's really tiny but it's like yeah but in real life that's an inch from your eyeballs so you have to like turn your head deliberate sure it's always in your periphery but again I I wrote I wrote about this and I don't know if you agree with this but um it's kind of like how you can always see your nose it disappears when you're not thinking about it and when I'm using Vision Pro I'm always aware of the things on my head of course it's big and kind of heavy yeah you can't be aware when you're really in the flow state of working typing looking at documents editing photos what have you inside of Vision Pro watching an immersive video and everything kind of disappears around that and until someone says hey you can see black around your head uh you're not really paying attention to that you're paying attention to the content so I don't want people to get too caught up on that but it it is there yeah so I obviously you can tell I'm conflicted about this people say I I got literal hate mail about you know me not being optimistic about Apple Vision Pro but I'm ha whatever stance you take you like it too much you hate it too much it's yeah it's not really a big deal but people like well I don't know how you can feel this way about Apple Vision Pro like well I can tell you why I feel this way about Apple Vision Pro we we're looking at already 10 years of another billion dollar trillion dollar company pouring billions of dollars into this and not getting any social traction whatsoever or social acceptability for the product that so Apple has two cells that they have to make they have to so I don't think Apple knows what the killer app for this is I think that they have well we could use it for this and we could use it for this and apple executive has said well we can see it in healthcare and we can see it manufacturing okay where Hollow lens is not a practical is not a practical piece of Hardware anymore Microsoft said well you know what we're kind of done here and they couldn't make it work and let's be clear Microsoft right now is the highest valued company in the world not Apple you for whatever that means right fake math with stocks yeah money on paper right so you've got that sell of what's it for but you also have to convince the world that yeah it's okay to wear this you don't look like a goon when you're wearing this product in your or maybe you do they never they never had to do it with any other product I think there's it's it's difficult again to describe I I think there's an issue with um trying to turn this into Mass Market because I don't think it ever will be it's just not any kind of headset is not mass Market not until it can be a literal pair of Ray bands that you put on your face uh probably you know 20 years from now uh we're usually optimistic about technology I mean I remember when we were writing about when Apple Insider not me was writing about project Titan in 2014 how Apple car was 2019 it's coming we'll see it at a car show in 2016 it's exciting right no it just didn't happen and M Cho has been talking about uh glasses and not just a headset but oh yeah yeah those they're thinking about a VR headset but it's really going to be a pair of glasses that's how he spoke about it it's like they kind of dabbled with VR but that's not really it what's the real product is putting a thing over your eyes and seeing the world around you as a set of glasses and that's coming in 2019 no sorry 2022 23 and so on and so forth until finally we got the VR headset and everyone's like oops it's actually a headset um I think we'll see some advancement in this very quickly to the point where it'll be better to wear around and I think there will be nerds and people with money who will undoubtedly wear these things in public especially once they're more smaller and more comfortable but we're never going to get to the iPhone point or the Apple watch Point even where one out of every 10 iPhone user has an Apple Watch or whatever and you just see them every where you see them in media we're not going to see TV shows where people are just walking around with vision Pros on their face but we'll see them with apple watches on their arm and I don't think it's meant to be that product it's I think it's meant to be the Mac Pro of Enthusiast it's meant to be we're going to sell a bunch of these not M millions billions but it's going to be they're they're going to be out there we're going to have to cater to them it's a different cell but that's a problem in its own because then you have to say well if it's going to be a smaller Market how do we convince developers to care that's the problem with things like YouTube and Spotify saying we don't really need a product here at launch cuz 200,000 people just isn't enough for us to bother we deal in the millions not in the hundreds of thousands this week's episode is brought to you by the email service sanbox now I actually love email I realize I might be alone there but it is my absolute favorite way to communicate only lately I've taken on several new projects that of course have meant working with several sets of new people and the sheer volume of email has made even me a little reluctant sometimes to check my inbox and yet you have to you know there are emails that you must respond to right away you know as well there are emails that they're not even 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with a free 2E trial visit sandbox.com inssider today to start your free trial and to get a $25 credit that's sanbox s n box.com Insider and now thanks to sbox for supporting the Apple Insider podcast so I have a review coming for Apple Insider on the Apple Vision Pro and it approaches more of the Enterprise and scientific markets kind of like how I did the Mac Pro review when the Apple silicon Mac Pro came out the Apple could say what it likes about where they would like to see this but we're in a situation where the edge glass of the Apple Vision Pro EX truds past a hard hat brim and you'll see a practical picture of that later we've already got a situation where training is effectively limited by the battery pack that's attached to it but the the bigger limitation I think is physical I I I don't think you're going to want to have a student practice two hours of surgery with the Apple Vision Pro on so I mean there's there's a lot going on here and there's still a lot more people on need to talk to and interestingly none of them want to go on the record as so and so from so and so company I have to refer to them as a large education provider or a large entertainment company or something like that because they don't want to invoke the ire of Apple but it it's there is an incredible amount of skepticism that apple to date has not done anything about there was no effective advertising for this between WWDC in the release and even the advertising now is very much consumer based and not Enterprise based I think Apple knows what they have I don't think they're for a company that's normally very loud they're very conservative with the Apple Vision Pro and I I think I like that I mean people were mad that there wasn't this big event where Tim Cook walks out on a stage wearing one or whatever I I don't think it needs that or warrants that because again this is going to be so low Market especially for this first version that Apple really needs to focus on selling to the Enthusiast selling to the people with money getting it out there and developing the next version and getting Vision OS iterated and I don't think any of those things are necessarily bad and for someone like me who's an Enthusiast who wants to use this thing who will go out of their way to incorporate this in their workflow unnecessarily everything I was doing before wasn't broken I didn't need to change anything Vision Pro didn't come along and and suddenly tell me everything you're doing is wrong and you need to change what you're doing in fact Vision Pro's honestly doing the same thing just wearing something on my face um so I think you're right here apple has a lot of convincing to do but I think the problem with our discussion or any discussion being had over this device is we have no idea how Apple sees this device as far as success goes what are what are these success metrics driving this product I I don't think they care I they've got they've got money to wait and that's what I said in my piece about this is there's going to be a lot of people talking about success or failure you knowe I haven't said anything that this product's going toly I'm not going to give you a YouTube face and say the Apple Vision Pro is a failure because it's not it's doing exceptionally well for what I mean if the numbers that we are hearing are true I mean even at 200,000 now 600,000 by the end of the year I think that's pretty amazing for a $3,500 face computer well that makes it a $750 million business on its own today not in the end of the year today it's a it's a 7 I did some naum math that may or may not be totally accurate but I mean that puts it uh within 10% % of the the launch Weekend sales now we're a week away so we have no idea what it looks like now but that launch weekend of approximately 200,000 sales puts it within 10% of meta's entire Quest 2 lineup that has been out since what 20 well to be clear that puts it within the dollar value of those headsets it doesn't put it within doesn't put it within the total sales volume which is about 20 million which meta considers a failure meta also needs the entire planet to be bor creatures that just feed them information for them to make money so 20 million of course is going to be a failure because they need it to be more like 200 million so like with Apple TV Apple will pour money into this in the interest of cross-licensing just like it app Apple TV feeds Services Services come from the iPhone the iPhone feeds Services everything is this web there's nothing independent inside Apple the Apple Vision Pro is not a stand blown device you at the very least you have to have an iPhone if you're going to order it online to buy it and by itself it is kind of a homeless product what's the uh what's the word every everyone keeps repeating it um Escape patch the Mac being able to be a window inside of Vision Pro is an escape patch for the product because basically as soon as you run into a wall now you just turn to your Mac it's amazing that the display can be in here I mean we're recording this podcast in my Mac to my left inside the Vision Pro and I'm able to see quick time and the recording and everything and that's all well and good but again escape hatch I'm not recording this podcast with the Vision Pro I mean I never I won't be able to period it's just not possible I can't attach a quality microphone to this device so well you can't do it yet here's the thing so you've got that developer strap right which doesn't do a thing it is a usb2 device that our friends over at 9 to5 said gives you a slightly more stable uh Mac screen which I've not found to be the case I it seems the same to me it it and the pins behind that there are more pins on that headphone connector on that on that ear strap connector than there are an USBC cable or Thunderbolt cable now there's no way for me to know right now what's on the other side of that the electronics controlling that and the iFix it tearon doesn't really talk about it that much but there's maybe there's something more coming as far as strap peripherals go maybe there's something faster coming I would very much like the Apple Vision Pro to be able to take an h2i in on USBC alt mode I would very much like that because that would make that product an incredibly more flexible product I mean I I don't think it's coming mind you I think Apple will control this the same way they control everything else which is good and they also need a a selling point for the next product of course I mean when everyone who just bought one needs a reason to buy the second one because that's the only Market Apple has right now at this point uh and them coming out and saying yeah and this one you can dock it to Thunderbolt and now you have everything you connect to Thunderbolt inside the Vision Pro um and that would be interesting um but that's not going to happen with this version I mean probably I mean I I I agree that the developer straps a potential input I mean we can see updates do all kinds of crazy stuff they added mouse support to iPad through a software update which is still very weird to me just to think about like oh this thing just impossible could not do before is now here because they updated the firmware in the operating system and I mean so we don't know what Vision OS is going to look like a year from now and uh that's exciting to me and I think I don't know do you have any last thoughts on Vision prob before we cover a few other topics well on my hierarchy of needs as far as Apple products go I have always loved my Mac there have been only a handful of Macs I've only kind of been iffy on like for instance the the Apple silicon Mac Pro is doesn't need to exist the I my iPad I love more than my iPhone I love my iPhone more than I love my Apple watch and somewhere further down way below that is the Apple Vision Pro this is a product that I own because I work here if I did not work for Apple Insider I wouldn't I wouldn't have bought this for myself this is I would so it launched I was excited about it I said wow that looks pretty cool and then I used it in over the summer I used it at a large company that I have contacts with over the summer and it's a little better now than the software was then it's not hugely better and I still want to like it I still want to like it a great deal but looking at it and even after playing with the Disney Plus app even after playing with some stuff that some of the people I've spoken with have built around it which are complex mechanical and fluid flow systems and you can manipulate the system and so forth and see how the system operates with multiple people in the space it is still not a product for me am I upset that Apple made it no I'm not upset that Apple made it it am I ever going to call it a failure no because it's not it is it's better than my Vive it's better than my index it it's better than the other virtual reality stuff that I've used but it is also not a today product this like I said if this is a major Computing Paradigm it I will be gone before that happens so I think Apple could have waited I think they could have waited another five years for Hardware to say this is what we want instead of doing this today which so developer kits let's talk about developer kits for a quick minute the developer kit for Intel was a beige box PC the development box for Apple silicon Mac was a Mac Mini with an a12 board in it they they were slapped together pieces of Hardware to make a developer kit I think that Apple could have used the next three years as a m share kind of thing and enthusiasm kind of thing and said WWDC this is our developer kit for where we want to be in 10 years and developers we can we can sell it to you now but this it is not going to ship in this fancy aluminum container it's going to be much sleeker it's going to be much Slimmer and it's going to be much more performant and I think they would have got exactly what they what they're getting now I mean I agree but also think that if Apple waited three more years this probably would have never shipped uh I think it needed to ship now to exist at all because at some point there's going to there's like a a meeting you know ship whether or not you're going to ship with time and once you cross that line you're never looking back there's another project there's another thing to look at there's an Apple car there's some other Paradigm to chase after and if we were ever going to get this it's now and I don't think apple has a thankfully they're not like Google they're not going to just abandon this and we'll get Vision OS 2.0 and then never see anything again we're not going to get people I know Dan wrote a story about um Dan Dan Aaron dilder wrote a story about who's make immersive experiences for Apple Vision Pro and it's a it's a wider piece than just that Focus point but focusing on that title alone um I think D people like John favro who made the uh prehistoric Planet are interested in making something for this I just out of the interest interest of art yes it's not going to you know be a blockbuster uh millions of dollars box office uh movie theater type thing but I think people will still want to make things for this product we'll see developers make more apps and things for it and I mean again Apple Vision Pro doesn't exist in a vacuum other headsets already exist other experiences already exist that can be ported I mean psvr has similar things to encounter dinosaurs where you just kind of look around and things are happening around you and you don't really interact at all um and those could easily come to Vision Pro and I think a lot of things is Apple really needs to do the thing they're bad at and they need to evangelize they need to go out they need to touch base and say hey bring your thing to our platform we'll give you money and uh hopefully they're doing that here instead of just doing it all in apple music because it seems to be the only place they're doing it anymore um but a closing thought on Vision Pro before we catch a couple more things I want to say from my point of view I most I pretty much agree with everything you're saying like I can be excited and have the opinion that these are early days and a lot of things need to be fixed um at the same time right but uh I'm also a little less down on the idea of this thing doesn't have really a key use case I think if you're someone who wants the best entertainment device you can buy Personal yes you're private you're alone this is this is it I mean no amount of money you throw at a TV in a sound system is going to get you the same experiences going into full immersive mode and watching a movie in Mount Hood At Night at on a 150 ft display with spatial audio surrounding you like you're just you're not going to recreate that life and while it's an illusion it's a convincing illusion and um it's only going to get better from here I I think the killer app here is not a specific use but it's just the idea it's entertainment and that goes against everything I said about it being uh useful as a work device but I think that's okay it's just like the iPad the iPad is very much a consumption device for most people and it's an amazing consumption device and I think Vision Pro can do that too and for me will I be working in this we'll see I mean Mike will be disappearing into his work cave after this episode and William and I will be discussing this at length but I think I'm going to be implementing this into my workflows I've wore this for multiple 8 hour shifts taking breaks only to eat and I'll take it off and stretch my legs I'm not wearing it for eight hours straight believe me um and that's I I guess I have one last question for you what do you think about the Comfort everyone's complain one person even said they were in pain during their 30-minute demo wearing the Vision Pro do you think about all that so the solo Loop is a nice thing but what I like what I saw on Twitter is somebody literally zip tied two of them together one over the top of their head one over the back of their head I that would have been way better I I'm not having any problems with this but I also like I told you I I have the index and I have the Vive so I I think that it is very much user to user there are there are Health considerations around it I wrote a piece about it we'll link it in the show notes they and people already fighting money on it and say it doesn't exist it absolutely exists there are there are neurological issues with pulsewidth modulation is used in O in OLED displays so there there's a lot to consider on this and if you are uncomfortable with it or if you do start feeling weird wearing the headset take it off don't don't don't push through this is not a face wash your visor yeah and to that end I kind of wish the magnets were a little bit stronger on that because I I they keep on popping off just with the lightest of handling and that they need to be a little bit more resistant to that but yeah just be careful just it it's a new computer par it's new Computing Paradigm maybe it's interesting yes try it get those demos at the Apple Store and give it a shot and you and Apple's got a very generous return on everything they sell so if you get it home you say oh my this is a waste of money then just bring it back this is definitely a product you have to use and I had something and it is now gone so we'll move on yep so a couple quick things we've got a few minutes left here at the end and uh so AI right I slowly at the beginning of the AI movement I would curse and stomp my feet and say I'm never going to call it AI because it is the dumbest term ever existent but language changes so I'm willing to say AI as wrong as the term might be and I I I guess I want your your two-minute opinion on the entire generative AI world's going to end Terminator nonsense that we have going on in the world right now ai is a tool that we need to figure out how to use well and here's the problem with generative AI is it started out good because it had good material to start with it had non- AI generated content to start with and now we're kind of down in this pit where it's feeding off itself and generating garbage and the same tools that AI will need to use to figure out what's AI hallucinations to draw from and what are human generated stuff to draw from will need to be implemented so actual people can determine what's AI generated content and what's generated by human for education for a whole host other things I think we're in the very early days um we're not looking at Skynet here we're not looking at anything like that uh the as far as the stock analyst bitching that Apple doesn't have anything generative AI so we're going to punish them in notes is idiotic it it's Tim given everything is Apple Apple has done Apple was not first to tablets they were not first to SmartWatches they were not first to personal Computing they were close to first to personal Computing they were you they were not first a lot of things but when they delivered here it is and it was great and all of a sudden stop I plead you stock analyst stop being dumb about this company you know how it works you know you know that they're not first out of the gate uh I I would say yeah like as I've discussed at length before uh AI Apple wasn't first to machine learning which is the real term for this that I will always hold on to uh I mean we saw machine learning the the keyboard on the original iPhone learned as you typed to know where your giant thumbs are going to press a key I mean your finger would land on F but it knew you that you meant a different key right and that so stuff like that has existed for a long time and before iPhone I'm sure there was other examples of that but I'm not old enough to know um but yes now we have the buzzword AI and it's powerful enough and and and persistent enough with these stock market analysts and CNBC and what have you that even Tim Cook I guess had a prepared statement during the earnings call because believe me that wasn't off the cuff he didn't just accidentally say something where he actually mentions a more AI things for from Apple are coming in 2024 and uh I found that very interesting for an earnings call well it's that is specifically a backhand at the analyst saying that Apple isn't doing anything that is the target market for that call and I I just I don't know what it's going to look like I still don't believe they're going to make Siri into a chat bot I don't think it's going to be this thing that you're going to feed random questions into and have it return hallucinations um I think Apple's going to be more careful than that uh we've seen them experimenting in the space by doing um open- Source projects with uh image uh generation and stuff like that we there's a few stories on that this week but um it's going to be a consumer product then all everything that they've announced so far has been mostly developer based or just interest based um but I don't think we're going to get a Bard now Gemini I I wish they'd just land on a name and stick with it Google but um they're not going to create a thing like that I don't think I think it's going to be more of this uh what's it the the text uh autocorrect stuff like where it's just part of the system uh kind of invisible you don't even see it you you have to go look at the notes or watching an Apple event where they actually describe it as generative AI or whatever as this feature but like the user is not going to know that they're just going to be using the device and it's going to do these things for them and they're not even GNA have to think about it like automatically editing photos or you know learning how you talk so it doesn't constantly correct curse words into the wrong thing um all very interesting maybe a little boring but I think that's Apple's take on this I think they're going to play the safe card here I what do you think they're I don't think they're going to come out with some crazy thing in WWDC no I I don't I don't think so so this week Apple released a a native language image generation model that if you're a developer you can go Implement right now if you're so inclined uh we have pieces on that as well it it's what Apple's going to do is going to be user Centric it's not going to be nerd specific it it they're going to make it available to as many people as possible and it will be retroactive for a lot of their older Hardware because you just have to look at mention of things like neural engines and things like that for the last six years so it has always been clear that this day was coming that this release of generative AI products is coming it has always been clear so why you know like I said why folks like analysts and so forth haven't picked what about the government you think they're going to be Our Saviors in this no I I I I just had a profanity Lac tiate in my head which I immediately dumped and just said no it's the government doesn't bother themselves with educating themselves and Technology beyond what they can use for a politically Laden spe my favorite thing about this stuff is all right so we have a story today um Apple's joining uh one of those groups that there's a thousand of them uh for Technology and Safety and concerns and we're going to field everything and fix the world or whatever the government does um but my favorite part about all of this is uh when there's a quote and it's President Biden says it's like he didn't say that he has he's like a writer guy who goes and researches this um but anyway it's just like yeah we're we're committed to making sure that the AI doesn't become dangerous or do anything we don't want it to do and it's like but you can't you can't do promise any of that the people making the AI stuff doesn't even know how it works it's all black box it's just well well and with this is this group has no teeth there's no force of law behind it there that is going to have to require a functioning government which we do not have it will require lawmakers who actually educate themselves on the tops hand which they do not do I mean so they's going to be not going to beun function legislation about this for a decade or more yeah this is the same government that tried to destroy the open internet in the name of safety right I mean uh what was what What's the phrase I'm looking for more specific uh it's on the tip of my tongue and yes it doesn't matter they years and years ago these politicians decided that they were so smart that they could do away with the Department that educated them on things right they weren't smart then they're not smart yeah it's it's just always funny to me it's you know Apple joins new new government sanctioned thing where they promise they're going to fix the world and meanwhile over on X it's the most popular app on uh the app store again can you guess why do you know it was number 24 or 45 or something a about a week ago but what could have changed in the last seven days that would make X the number one app in the app store generative images of famous artists that are indecent have been flooding that platform and they have no idea what to do about it none and government oversight isn't going to fix that right and it it's just I don't know it's what is Apple going to do when they create this thing and someone makes something terrible with it and it's going to be a PR nightmare we're going to be riding about it for weeks and someone's going to get sued all because nobody knows how any of this works and I'm still very doubtful I think this is going to be one of those footnotes in history where it's like you remember nfts or cryptocurrency yeah AI is kind of the same idea they're just going to they'll change the name again in 5 years to call it something else you know fancy robot name whatever and so they can get away from Ai and everything terrible it did in the last three years but this technolog is not going anywhere it's just going to be used differently and what it's doing now is just it's not very good and I think that's everything for the uh Apple Insider podcast this week and thank you sbox for sponsoring this episode thanks everyone for listening if uh you want to hear more about Apple Insider make sure you visit our website or listen to The homekit Insider podcast which I do with Andrew every week otherwise there might be a guest and there's also the Apple Insider daily podcast where you can catch up in about 10 minutes or less on everything happening in Apple news and I can be found on midon primarily I still have a Twitter but I'm not really there if you notify me I can get back to you but just find me on mcadon or find my email at the top of all of my articles Mike where can uh people find you on the internet I mean appal cider that's where I'm at yeah he's floating around pretty straightforward you can you can find him on Twitter as well if you want to I mean you can but I get a little salty over there sometimes so maybe not right right but where are you not salty no I'm salty everywhere I mean so it's the genuine me worthly experience no matter where you find me yeah all right well thanks again for listening and we'll see you guys next week long everybody\n"