"WEBVTTKind: captionsLanguage: enhello and welcome to the Apple Insider podcast our sponsors this week are zakok and FastMail I'm joined once again by William Gallagher at least I'm pretty sure it's William um he may have returned from his brief tenure at uh tuaw this week premium subscribers get the adree episode as always and an apple Insider plus segment will be about wearables our history with them and uh you know generally what we think maybe we want some more I I wouldn't mind a pair of shoes what about you William okay uh I thought you were going to say how are you and I was I was ready to say grumpy for all sorts of reasons but actually that just made me laugh there I did a Young Writers uh thing like was at an award ceremony stuff and one of the Young Writers over the weekend had one of those shoes as you walk flashes a light I want shoes like that give me that with an Apple logo possibly and I'd be in yeah so there you go shoes brighten everything didn't they sell a pair of apples vintage shoes for hundreds of thousands of dollars recently yes not my size so I couldn't bid right yeah that that's what stopped me as well uh plus it wasn't in blue so you know speaking of Steve Jobs and uh not his shoes wait what did they sell though they didn't sell his shoes though they s sold his Sports coat or something uh his whole who was his whole suit it must have been his whole suit uh from 40 years ago came up recently the the suit model he wore for his photograph uh with a Mac I believe oh that one oh goodness that's what yeah that's why it sold so because you know Steve Jobs wasn't known for suits he was known for Bare Feet um it's true I I wanted to point out so Steve Jobs archive just dropped this bombshell on us right before we recorded I managed to watch the short video at the top and read the full body of work uh my goodness very good I want everyone to go check that out this one is uh titled what was this one called the objects of our the object of our life for it and it's a 55 minute really rare I'd never even heard of this one before uh talk that Steve Jobs gave in Aspen at a design conference in 1983 so before even the Mac was out and it's astounding I think actually I mean he's not as Pol he's nowhere near as polished as usual and yet somehow that's very appealing and uh Johnny IV's intro in the Steve Jobs archive talks about him being prophetic and he really is it's like he's already been to 2024 and gone back so I love uh watching people in the 70s and 80s describe things they expect the future to be and um anytime people discuss the internet um and computers but pre internet right yeah it's always fun because PE we've heard Steve Jobs we've heard other people describe how computers are going to be very important and eventually uh they will Network together and we'll be able to send things to each other but they still couldn't fathom what we would do with that time in this in In This Very uh brief it was 55 minutes but I watched the two-minute introduction and even then it was enough just to get get an idea of it and he said uh in by 1986 so this would be 3 years later people would spend at least 3 hours a day on the machine more time than they would spend driving their car and that was his um basically his description and the people he was talking to this was a design convention so the entire concept of the uh Speech and what he's talking about is why we design and why computers are going to be important for that in the future and he made a A sly jab at uh what was supposedly IBM at the time who was overtaking Apple 2 sales um by saying you know anyone can sell you know exploitive looking computers um but we're out here trying to design ones that look good and it doesn't cost anymore to make them look good so we want to and we think that that's important and I need your help he asked said the designers I need your help making sure this happens so just a really fascinating look into Steve Jobs at what was it 28 years old my goodness all the videos I usually watch about things of the future of the Internet it's like um there's one is was it an AT&T video that said by I don't know 2000 something there' be a computer in every city and things like this and Arthur C Clark has done some um uh what's the word for Arthur C Clark that's not a compliment uh he's a bit up himself talking about the future computers enough so that every time he's right you're slightly irritated by it but with jobs it actually feels like cuz he's not talking about the machines he's talking about us and our use of I think which makes it um Timeless in a way I am still of the opinion that Apple TV plus and the Steve Jobs archive should work together to make a bespoke only Apple could make documentary I'm sure it'd be fluff I'm sure it would be polished and they would ignore some of the bad more bad things whatever but they have access to things that we haven't even fathomed uh this particular speech there's been Snippets shared audio clips of it um before it's been mentioned before particularly I am aware of the part where he describes how uh it's near the end of the speech where he just takes a moment to say you know I didn't make the clothes I'm wearing on my back I we I didn't invent the language that I'm speaking I didn't invent the mathematics that that we use so my and it was a question about retention at Apple why do so many people join Apple since its creation to now and not leave your retention numbers are crazy and basically said well we spend so much of our Time Of Our Lives using things that other people have made and other people have designed and created that it feels important to be a part of something that gets to put something back into the world and I think that Mantra is still exists at Apple today it's a famous quote and I've did it as well but I didn't realize actually where he first said it uh so I'm quite riveted by this I mean I'm to design and stuff so it's good I also Johnny IV is um he writes really well in an introduction there straight to it I'm sure he's very edited well someone looked at that but yes it was a very it was just all very well done uh if you appreciate Apple at all or even even if you're just kind of whatever about Steve Jobs it's still a good piece of History go check it out um I love that the archive continues to put out this stuff and uh I hope we see more soon so speaking of things from the past uh by the way he did mention artificial intelligence at the Lisa uh event that took place the day before and I had to watch that clip it's a minute long and um it's funny how we've been talking about this stuff for so long right so in the main event he did mention that computers were 36 years old um in 1983 the the concept of a computer had was invented and started to be produced uh 36 years prior and here we are today well beyond 36 years later so let's see N I was waiting 1984 is to 2024 to make the math easy uh yeah don't even think about it but my goodness yeah we are 40 years later um and wow just the the amount of things that have changed but here he is on stage uh you know just showing off the Lisa and saying talking about how even to today for him then they were thinking about about computers thinking like people and human consciousness and this has always been a thing and uh now I wonder what he would think about 40 years later Apple coming out with something called Apple intelligence and people calling uh dumb algorithms that lie artificial intelligence and where we are with all this today I would love to hear what he had to say about that but we have to move on because we didn't get to try out artificial intelligence for our reviews but we got to try everything else in the Mac OS and iOS betas and we uh William and I got to produce reviews looking at these features and I've had a couple of questions about well how do you review a beta well you do you just you know you install it and you use it and then you write about it like anything else I thought it was a funny question um it's the operating system uh Apple announc it at WWDC I'm sure we'll see some tweaks between now and then Apple intelligence will eventually arrive and we will review that as well uh revisit iOS 18 and Mac again in the future but this is a snapshot of today what did you think of how the reviews turn well I really enjoyed reading yours because although I did put on iOS 18 and eventually iPad OS 18 as well shouldn't have done but I did um I was concentrating on the Mac uh it's funny until you said it there the question about how do you review beta um because these are operating systems so they are underneath they underpin everything so actually I get it um how do you start looking at these things and what you do is just like you said you use them you work away as normal you see the differences plus Apple did highlight some things so you explicitly go uh give those a poke and see what happens uh there wasn't as much of that poking about on the Mac as there is on iOS but still well I was going to say but still I like it I'm just you heard the hesitation it's because I'm thinking until Apple intelligence rolls out it feels like like a stunted release it's there's yeah especially in MACC OS yeah there was just specific Mac OS feature-wise we got window tiling and iPhone mirroring that's very good well it's not finished yet iPhone mirroring it's very good yes and then the passwords app of course yeah it's quite interesting I've realized uh I mean I'm still a one password user and for so many years uh you go to a password field on a website and there's been this little fight between Safari and one password ever who displays their box first and just in the last few days I've been noticing one password doesn't get a look in uh Apple's own password app just seem right I'm here I'm all you need this is fine that's it I I like the passwords app I am excited that it's at Standalone now and the team over there working on that is excellent it can only mean good things we're going to get more features in the future they're obviously always iterating and now that it's out of settings it feels like it's taking a step up in importance it's going to actually get more attention more features more spotlights in the future so um yeah but Mac OS yeah outside of mirroring which uh we've discussed that that's an interesting feature I actually haven't tried yet cuz um my Mac doesn't really get much use but every time I twitch but okay breathe yes uh it's well I mean that's the thing though I'm we I I if I'm using my Mac generally speaking it might be through the Vision Pro um and I can't use iPhone mirroring inside the Vision Pro because it's a continuity feature and you can only have one at a time so to trade off can't have iPad mirroring on the Mac which would actually be just as handy but perhaps that will I'm not so sure how useful that would be other than oh I get to access my device because you can run iPad apps on the Mac right um and I suppose the same could be said about iPhone apps on the Mac but uh people have found utility in it so I think it's I'm surprised how much of you used it I mean the example I keep telling people is that my one of my online banks uh their website is not very good their iPhone app is better so every now and again I just I call up the iPhone and use it on there on my Mac uh but one thing that I was hoping that hasn't happened because of this is um previously last year on maos Sonoma there was this really clever feature that you could have widgets uh on your Mac that were from your iPhone so even if you didn't have the Mac equivalent app you could still install a widget like taken from your iPhone and put on the screen and it's such a clever thing and it's totally rubbish because if the app does anything at all uh it's worthless on the Mac because you try to use it and it just puts up a mage saying please open this on your iPhone and I thought maybe with iPhone mirroring if your iPhone is connected will the widgets just do what they need to do and so far no they don't no connect of course again got to put this in the usual it's the beta so who knows things can change by the release uh iOS 18 wise I found it to be a pretty robust release uh that was kind of my Approach for the review it's there's as much here as any other release and uh we haven't even got taple intelligence yet so that's why I kind of approached it as hey look at all there's just so much customization so much opportunity throughout the operating system so many new things to test and try out and yet we still have this big temp pole feature that hasn't arrived yet weird isn't it but um you're right about it being robust I I've had one bug which is and it's still lasting on whatever the latest developer beter is that every now and again for no apparent reason my iPhone will switch on do not disturb uh and this means I I picked up the phone the other night uh to do something and found I'd missed 12 phone calls every one of which I wanted to miss so I'm going to I'm filing a report with apple please please keep this bug yeah please thank you for the feature uh I think I've been thinking about this and um have you checked every device for different Focus modes and different implementations because it's not just your iPhone your your Mac can turn on do not disturb on yes CU there's a way you can even tell Siri to figure it out for you and put on these turns unless Siri think you know he doesn't want to hear from them and switches it on uh I can't see a patent to it there's something odd happening here maybe screen time automations or you've put it inside of uh maybe use a home automation and you've put Do Not Disturb in there not as F may I mean maybe you have a Trigger action for turning on uh when you open and uh the books app to put it in do not disturb but you don't have a leave do not disturb action there's there's so many ways that this could happen but it didn't happen before the beaters and I know I haven't changed anything I do I have one um automation that does that the uh I open a particular camera app and it switches on do not disturb but I've tried it gone in and out and I do remember to have the off din stuff afterwards I think it's just a fluke and it'll go away um but there is one bug going I mean I know we talking about new features but this bug intrigues me because I haven't had it at all I've couple people have said that they lose the icons uh on their iPhone and also the names of the apps underneath so they've just got this grid of white squarish things uh you have you had that's only when you're changing the icons with a customization feature and that's mostly a buffer they'll eventually come back or you could just change Focus modes or something and kind of force it to happen but I I have seen that bug too I think it's just the speed at which it's changing all the icons sometimes lags I think this tells you how little uh adjustments I've been making to my I made a page with so not with breaking the grid just a single line of them I found that quite handy but I haven't changed any icon colors I have a a question so we found out uh right before last episode I don't think we got to it though that how apple is doing this new dark mode feature in beta 3 where the dark icons are forced onto every icon possible and there's a filter applied on top if it can't be changed and uh it's being doing it's being done with basic math apparently um there's not even you can't even really call it an algorithm it's just doing uh surface detection and it's mathematically processing it it's kind of funny uh so even and they're not even doing this special notation of oh it's Facebook so we're going to design a specific dark mod ion note like it just the math figured out to use the blue from the background for the letter and then change the background to dark so I wanted to ask you uh now that we've had a little bit of time to mess with this and see it with other apps and alternative icons what do you think of Apple forcing this Behavior onto every app is this kind of like from your perspective painful from a design side of things like You're we're taking away the control of the designers or is this a good thing because now we have more uniform consistency across the ecosystem whether or not Google ever updates its app icons my heart says terrible terrible idea but then I never even switch on dark mode uh I can't remember with dark mode it doesn't just it reverses out it puts black does it change app icons you have no it's a separate dark so there's dark mode across the system for how the apps behave and then there's dark icon mode so when you're in the wiggle mode you can tap a button in the top left corner select customize and then a thing a drawer pops up from the bottom of the phone that lets you pick what icon types you want to use whether it be light dark tinted or uh Dynam I would say I'll never use that and I can say I've NE I I have never had any point chosen a different icon for any app but there are one or two where the icon is so ugly that I wouldn't mind changing it so maybe you can't have um Apple's overriding color change on just one app that you don't like can you okay no it it's a uniform application across the entire system but of course individual app icons or apps from third party apps uh can offers alternate yeah just the one I'm thinking of is so ugly I don't really expect the designers to come up with Alternatives that are any better but that's very har no I'm all right with Apple Maps I'm never going to tell you what this app is that I don't like I I do like the dark mode stuff uh like the dark icons for weather even surprise me like they did a good job there uh and what's nice is uh a developer told me um you can submit your own versions so it's not the math is going to happen on things that don't have dark icons or uh don't have an alternative in the system uh so that's where the math is applied like forcing Facebook or Google's icons to be dark mode or tinted um but if you do submit alternative app icons you can submit this is for the tinted mode this is for the dark mode this is for the light mode and show it in the UI that lets users see when they select an icon which icon they're going to get based on which icon mode they're in so that's very handy I'm glad that uh apple is forcing it so I think it's the best of both worlds because for me personally uh I can't stand it when I see a bright white icon like if I use Google I I don't but uh the icon is a bright white icon with a the g in it um but the dark mode changes that white to black Al uh with that with the with the math or whatever great Google would never do that they're never they're just never going to update that icon uh they don't care about Apple devices that 6 years from now we'll see a dark mode icon from Google if Apple made it a thing but no instead Apple just forced it on the icon and we're done that's it that's all I had to do but then over here at carrot weather or Ivory or something the developers who do care can just submit the things they want so that their artwork can be reflected by their taste and not forced by the math I It's the Best of Both Worlds I was thinking you say Google I'm thinking Microsoft will never bother changeing it but someone like the Omni group I think they already have offer hold turn they're bound to do people that are true Mac and iPhone developers I think will be into this so that's go well we have plenty to talk about today so the the reviews are out there go give them a read let us know what you think I would love to know what you guys thought of my review this time I used uh Bento style boxes for a lot of the features just for fun to see how that would turn out and uh so far I think they look pretty good on our website I think they they they arranged really well and they just present the features cuz I like you know I use pix uh p i I say it wrong every time pixel met sewing I don't know pixo uh yeah a p p i c s e w i I always want to say it wrong because uh I guess the vowels sounds I I don't know the way they're arranged it makes me want to say pixu which is not right uh pixo is a stitching app but uh for uh screenshot screenshot stitching my goodness but it has a feature in there that lets you add device frames and I've used that for ages because it creates a perfect transparent device frame screenshot then I add it to designer get a background on it and that's how you get most of my uh framed screenshots you'll see those in the review as well but I those only can be used so many ways uh cut off the top cut off the bottom right that eventually you're using the same image over and over again so I I I wanted to differentiate a little bit uh especially in such an image heavy review like this one uh and threw in some good I usually don't like device frames pixel M pro has the option as well to do it and I've been playing a bit more with that lately but I just feel like I know what the phone looks like it's the screen you're trying to show me that's what I'm interested in I think I think the key here is uh and I understand it's a taste thing and you know there's nothing wrong with your opinion um but I I do believe that this is the using device frames helps I don't know uh guide your eyes I suppose so if it's just a I've seen these before where people take four screenshots and then just lay them side by side with no Gap um if it's just a a a rectangle with four screenshots side by side you can't see where one starts and one ends and it's just this jumble of UI um I feel like it's just it it's a disservice to the users I think having the frames yes they take up more space they but they also require you to do more thinking when you're laying out the image and everything but that's a little inside baseball uh we can pick up I mean uh I'm almost the opposite I like three images side by side but it's I'm a recovering Catholic it's a triptic that's the way I look at it so yes this is getting off the topic is I'm sorry maybe you should make it into stained glass oh it's Apple I mean they've done dark this year next year the stained glass version of iOS the stained glass I'd play with that I okay yes well so I don't know I I quite enjoy the review I did want to point out just for uh the first image in my review might look like device frames on a background but that is actually a photo so I just wanted to point that out uh that the top image in my review is a photo of my iPhone I did include a couple of photos as well CU I enjoy photography um so I photograph my phone with different backgrounds and lock screens and stuff but the top hero artwork on the review is a photograph not a frame even though it look that way I did that on purpose though because I thought it would be there is kind of an obvious question uh what in the world did you photograph your iPhone with if you couldn't use your iPhone to do the photography there not like other cameras in the world are there no I have I have a Sony a72 it's um it's aging a little bit I I'm very interested in upgrading at some point but the it honestly it still produces excellent photos cameras aren't like other devices you don't have to upgrade them every year so it's another world it's a whole another world and they're very expensive and mine was very expensive and upgrading it would cost me a lot of money that I already spent on a Vision Pro so I'll I'll the camera that takes beautiful pictures I'll I'll go ahead and keep like it's not going to take less beautiful pictures over time it's not like Sony does an update that uh you know is going to ruin my picture quality and force me to upgrade my camera because that's how that works right um anyway just actually I just thought you also bought an iPad Pro and uh just last weekend I still have not worn an apple Vision Pro but now that here in the UK I was in an Apple store I was in between a couple of events and I had a minute to chip in and in my mind it was I've got to compare the the new iPad Pro to the M1 um 11in one I've got and it is shockingly I was so stunned by everybody says oh it's light and you pick it everything no this is a piece of cardboard where's the real thing um so yes I I en video you quite a lot last Saturday this episode is brought to you by Zach do zok is a free app and website where you can search and compare highquality in network doctors choose the right one for your needs and click to instantly book an appointment and instantly is the word well doctors also a word and right high quality there's two more but I'm in the UK where I obviously can't use America zck do and don't get me started on how great National Health Services here but even a hym of praise to the UK's NHS would not use the word instantly whereas with Zach do instantly doesn't just mean it's fast once you found the doctor you need it means the entire process is we're talking about uh in network appointments with any of more than 100,000 Health Care Providers across every specialty from mental health to dental health to Eye Care to skin care and much more and this is the kicker for me as as an Englishman only familiar with us Healthcare from friends telling me all about it Zach do removes just removes a key problem ordinarily if you find a doctor you need a doctor who is near you and a doctor who has appointments available you can then find out that he or she will not take your insurance and sometimes you can only find that out at the very end of the process whereas with zck do that just isn't the thing you see the doctors who take your insurance that's all I can't actually imagine why they all systems that why would you use a system that doesn't do that but then too I mean it's great having all this data about insurance and appointments and every healthc Care Professionals particular specialisms but on top of all of that everyone is also rated by verified patients plus zok appointments they just happen fast typically within 24 4 to 72 hours of booking but you can even score same day appointments so you need a doctor stop putting off that doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com appleinsider to find and to instantly book a toprated doctor today that's zck do.com Z excuse me I keep doing that Z do.com slapple inssider zocdoc.com appleinsider and thank you to zok for supporting the Apple Insider podcast I think uh this would be a good spot to stick in apple just released a new Underdog video about 9 Minutes in length I want to know your opinion on this and I I'll let you get to it in a second and describe what the video is about but um it it makes me think man I am such a dork but I would totally love even just one Apple TV plus program to be this ridiculous ully like apple a drink just I don't know why but there's something about it that's like wow I do this I use that stuff they're using that stuff right I don't know maybe I'm just a I don't think it would have the legs for a whole hour or a whole series no I mean no not an hour maybe a sitcom you know Everybody Loves Raymond but he has an iPhone I mean the current one um I forgotten the title but the out of office the Underdog's out of office it's a 10 just under 10 minutes one and last year's was about 8 minutes and they're they're build as comedies in a way they're adverts but they're comedies well just they are very very good at the tension of can these people use these tools in time to do something and of course they can Apple's never going to have their own products fail but it's exceptionally well done and involving and very funny and I said at the at the top I said I was grumpy and actually it's this I'm grumpy about we've been having these uh now for 5 years and apple apple just a credits at the end for you know uh stickies are accredited uh point of the video now yes the products are credited the apps are credited but not the ACT designers script writers I I do notice that in the YouTube description uh there's an original music credit and I just got to assume whoever that is cu I can't pronounce it has negotiated a better contracts than any of the rest of them but it it does it bothers me a lot that something uh that's celebrating creativity under pressure and that is so well done is Anonymous in every other way than we used pages and the the Snoopy watch face at some point so bugs me but I was I was delighted to see that it was out and I watched it instantly and uh I feel quite invested with these characters now after 5 years and for they're always I've realized they're always designing boxes well yeah that's the story isn't it I don't remember what they originally did in when they the characters were all in an office um at first was that packaging then yes the first uh the first the first episode was about them designing a pizza box yes and then they span off their own business which is packaging design which is yeah I won't I won't reveal what the uh latest one is about cuz I think it's kind of a stinger and I think it's really funny um but yes uh the ad I think does a really good job and let me let me expand upon my thought here no I don't think a TV show featuring Apple products in every 4 seconds would be a good TV show of course not I just mean I don't know I I I kind of I've I have enjoyed so far um the modernday dramas in Apple TV uh where people are using Apple products um I I and I'm aware that other movies and films uh generally do use Apple products they put a big sticker over the Apple logo to make us not realize it's an orange iMac for some reason um right like obviously but I don't know I it just it's kind of fun to see that represented in media and uh I like the technology there I like people using it even though uh like we've made the joke before nobody on Earth has ever said let me Bing that that's a paid promotion that they inserted into the uh TV TV or movie so I can see how this would make it worse in some ways but again I I think Apple TV plus so far has been very tasty way they've done it and of course this is a blatant advertisement um but I I don't know I just thought it was kind of fun having this as a because all right if you're in this world and you're an apple nerd and you're you're tech nerd in general uh there's probably a not insignificant chance that you're going to see this and be like oh I want to show this to my friends or family because this is just a fun ad how many times have we done that and they'd be like why are we watching this why are we looking at this like what what are you what are you showing me right now and I'm glad that was able to do this kind of presentation in a way that maybe I can show it to other people and then not immediately reject it I think we make it sound if you haven't seen any of these then I think it sounds like apple does a parade of devices and things but it actually it in a weird way sounds so strange it does not feel forced it's these characters with these devices would do that to do this it feels natural for what they want nobody's going to stop in the middle of their Working Day and switch switch to another platform to do something so yes they there's a lot of them and they're using a lot of these things but it doesn't feel unnatural it actually just feels ad most fun I find it yeah I did find it funny that he uh used the cont uh name drop feature with the concierge right or with the luggage Handler that this is like we're going to exchange contact details I'm like I don't know but okay sure yeah go for it also you met like a there about what you think about this as a TV show I want to just say that my perspective is not um yes I think if it was all Apple all the time Apple products fine but I I think the pacing of these is so well done but you couldn't continue that for longer than the eight or 10 minutes no uh for oh no no this the pacing of this was very much a montage like this would be a part of a TV show not the entire TV show yeah that it's a thriller actually uh I mean I think Al last year when it was about a Macbook having been stolen it was a very clear Thriller but it has that Rhythm and pace and it's very hard to uh support that in the middle of an hour if the whole thing isn't like it and the whole thing can't be if if anyone's have you seen the bear although I understand it lots ofy nominations no yeah just watch I don't need you to watch the show all right just watch the first episode it's like 26 minutes but it is that it is just 26 minutes of oh dear God we're on this roller coaster everything is happening but they execute it so well that I feel like yeah a whole season couldn't last that way I would probably have a heart attack but like them doing that in one episode was really excellent but I think I read the script to that once but I never got around to watching for there's some strs that work so well on the page you rush to see them on screen and others they work even better on the P well I've seen it now but uh I'll go have a look proper look at it yeah I want to I want to continue our media Bend um speaking you you mentioned Awards uh Apple got what 11 uh this is quite funny was there was there more and other the emies it's it is actually and this sounds so silly but it's actually hard to count how many awards her company has got I last year Apple itself didn't count uh the fact that it got an Emmy Award for its um the Super Bowl halftime show and I don't know why it aired on Fox it got five nominations Apple didn't include it in its own count this year the EM the television Academy made this the usual big presentation of all of the awards they read out um I think it's actually 11 categories within which Apple got conly 11 nominations and that's it Awards in September thank you very much good night and then there are all these other categories that they just didn't bother mentioning that slipped out in a press release and of all of those and the 11 categories included Apple TV plus got 72 Emmy nominations including actually a writing nomination for slow horses which made me particular but actually personally I don't know why writing is considered bung that in the press release I actors I I know because we see actors and we don't see writers we don't see directors I get why some things are more high-profile and the whole purpose of the m is is to get people watching but yes but I I I think the way it works is they announced the categories and there's all these subcategories and they come out kind of in a press release style yeah no so so of course we cover it and it's just about the main show and we get on about our business we go about our day and then Apple's like um by the way you guys said we got 11 uh here's a list of 72 72 Emy nominations that they got so you know of course we updated the article and that's all that's all well it robbed there because I knew there'd be more I just I foolishly I think actually know I didn't expect all the rest of them to be announced quite so soon cuz actually I mean just to add to the complexity there are multiple Emmy Award ceremonies this uh the children family yes that's it you know and I don't know whether apples up for children award outstanding hair styling in a miniseries or movie I think is a category and actually I can kind of understand that there you go there's a winner right there yes okay I I I do Wonder William so we we also got another video from Apple this week that might get an em year don't know which one that is oh no I do I do oh goodness me uh dfy de marier uh the birds Aid Hitchcock the film Birds the Privacy one of all these cameras flying around like sparrows following people's every move until they reach somebody with an iPhone yeah I you know say about Pace on the The Underdogs one I think that ad is too long for what it does yeah yes it well you know what they're going to do William uh this is the they they run the full length ad on YouTube for us to go find this full length ad isn't going to play anywhere in in the planet uh they're going to chop it up and show a stinger Apple privacy whatever at the end of a 3se second ad where there's a bird camera hopping on someone's head right so like um but this extended edition right the whole story I I find I I enjoyed it I it's not you know it's not it's not The Underdogs um it's only a few minutes long and uh I think it's just well done as far as the details about um it's a camera that kind of transforms they should have played the Transformers theme into kind of a a flying bird camera thing bats at at one moment they look like bats um and they're just following people around staring at their phones and people are kind of catching wind of this and they start running from them that's where I I I I kind of started getting the feel for the the birds you know Al Alfred Hitchcock and then the one that flew into the window that was just clearly a call back to uh the birds as well and there's just so so much of that that was just fun but one detail I noticed I wonder if you picked up on is everyone that's getting spied on was using an Android phone I thought that was entirely the point yes but but you know you know viewers might be so concerned watching all of the cameras that they might not notice the devices they're using you know I I know I'm uniquely weird in the fact that I pay attention to every phone and tablet and computer that people use in media so it was immediately apparent that these aren't iPhones but I did want to point out that apple had a missed opportunity here they didn't show anyone using an iPhone with chrome installed being spied on okay right yeah yeah that I think you've gone further there than I would in that that's a level of detail Beyond which we anyway I so of course Apple the the the the end of the ad is well after all the scary terrible stuff being harassed and targeted by these evil camera Birds uh iPhone users just tap Safari and all the cameras explode around them the end and great fun it was fun fun little ad there um I don't know what Apple's doing in their ad ad department but normally we get the cool ones around Christmas time so I'm glad we're seeing more of this throughout the year I do think I mean visually it can't I can't conceive of it being done any better than it was it's marvelously done but just they spent a lot of money on that ad you could tell that that was a very expensive ad for sure I I'm willing to bet that it was cheaper to make The Underdogs video than it was to make the the Privacy ad yeah quite possibly I mean uh underdogs take place racing around Thailand and so um that's yeah quite a lot of cast and crew to get over there and stuff and it must have been an extend one CGI camera bird yes yes yeah you're already over budget this episode is brought to you by FastMail you've got email I've got email and actually you're going to hear this by the end of the episode email is is the best way to reach me it's my favorite way to communicate but you could well now be thinking oh that's is nice for him whereas for you email could be this huge mountain every day it's like the mandatory part of your job that keeps you from doing your work or sometimes from having lunch well FastMail is built for you actually I think it might as well have been built by you all of the problems you have with the volume of email the distractions of it sometimes you know the complexity of it all these are all the same issues that the makers of fast mail have faced themselves they've just done something about it actually they've just done a lot about it really uh there are oh so many examples custom swipe options okay I mean with a flick of your finger you can do with some EMA emails just immediately and then when you have to work a bit harder and read a bit more and just be in and out of emails well then FastMail provides folders and labels to help you just sort it out to organize your way through them as quickly as possible and then I keep coming back to this one example as as proof proof it seems to me that fast mes developers are clearly fast mail users and all it is is the snooze function with some email apps actually including Apple's snooze uh it's meant to remind you of an email later to let you put it out of your mind for now and yet of course be sure to be reminded of it at the right time but what most of them do is they might set up a reminder of some description but they just leave the email in your inbox all the time so there you are you're too busy to deal with this and yet every time you you have to launch your email app to go send some mail to someone else well there it is it's still there that snooze message is in your face in your inbox snoozing should take an email off your plate take it out of your head and the only way to do that is to also take it out of your inbox which is therefore precisely what FastMail does here's an email you can't deal with it now but it's so important it'll keep pressing away at your head except now it won't because it's gone it's gone but you know FastMail will bring it back at a time you've said a time when you are able to deal with it that's such a simple idea but FastMail does it right where others do it wrong because I think the makers a fast mail they get it this isn't some kind of race ad features for the sake of it it's a case of making what email users need try for yourself see for yourself go and make email better for yourself with fast ma try FastMail free for 30 days and get 10% off your first year at fastmail.com apppp Insider that's FastMail f a m a i l.com slapple inssider and thanks to FastMail for supporting the Apple Insider podcast but of course uh that's not all we have to talk about with privacy a lot is going on uh in the world and uh we won't get into uh any political stuff here but of course uh the terrible incident in the United States of an attemp attempted assassination led to a oddly specific Tech angle that we honestly couldn't have um predicted uh but I guess we should have known by now because this happened with San berardino this happened with Pensacola and the various other Shooters and other problems uh in the United States and uh the FBI got a hold of of a phone now I wanted to talk about this specifically for two reasons cuz uh this got resolved very quickly um and people were you know discovering My article hours after the conclusion of the story The Arc had finished the FBI had gotten into this said device and people were finding my article saying but they got into it didn't they I'm like well I didn't know that when I wrote this so I can't predict the future uh so people kind of uh didn't pay attention to time stamps there but um I was prognosticating that oh no here we go again the FBI is going to be knocking on Apple's door cuz we we didn't know the device it could have been a Google device Android or could have been an iPhone that still hasn't been revealed probably won't be whatever it's not important to the story and honestly this assassination attempt isn't important to the story My prognostication was more concerned of the overall view if you actually read the words I write is where One Security incident away from the United States trying to compel Apple to open a back door yet again and I think it's really important that despite it not being the front page despite it not being on our minds continuously that we should always keep it somewhere in the back of our mind that this is a threat that there is there are not just in the United States but around the world governments that don't understand technologies that want to give good guys access to devices right quote unquote good guys back doors to encryption but that's not how encryption Works a door is a door bad guys can use it too so all that said um I just found it interestingly timely that I wrote this and then here we are a day later uh learning about celebrite and their hacking devices not working on the latest iPhones running the latest operating systems what do you know about that I think there's some people at Apple Park having a nice lunch thinking finally we beat them for a bit for a while uh what's happened is a very specific leak of documents and the documents dated April to it's ready for so things could have changed but there's this long list of iPhones that as of that moment cannot be unlocked by the celbrate uh software some of them are listed as coming soon which might be optimistic might be true others are in research which sounds like we haven't figured this out yet but again at some point they probably all were in research but ultimately right now if you have an iPhone newer than 5 years old and you've updated it to iOS 17.4 or later celebrite can't unlock it and I I think that's a good thing I mean I sound like I'm anti-law enforcement there but uh I'm not it's a complicated discussion well so basically what's happened is in iOS 17.4 whatever hole celebrite found to get into iPhones has been patched it's a simple as that and they will just find a different hole and go with that route in 17.4 and above of when they find it that's why it's in progress It's not a it's not a if it's a when that they will find there's always exploit software it's not perfect it's not impenetrable um but right now it is protected it it just the the it circles back on the discussion of the Assassin's phone uh in this case the FBI either it was an Android device and those are easier to get into there less so don't let me be biased um you know today they have uh enclaves like Apple secure Enclave on device they have uh intend encrypted uh systems that require passwords to unlock the encrypted side of things they're they've emulated Apple in a lot of ways that direction for the better like I I think it's good that Android users have access to similar security protections that iPhone users do but they're also notoriously easier to get into because there's just more holes that to use the same analogy as before there's more holes in the Android side of things to crawl into to find your way into a system than on Apple's because Apple can controls the whole stack Android less so because you have the hardware stack and the software stack being controlled by multiple different companies so uh they're easier generally to get into so either the phone was Android and that was the case and they were able to just bypass it using one of the many ways to do so or it was an iPhone running iOS 17.3 right that's or 17 or iOS 16 or you what have you or is an older iPhone device it could been an iPhone 10 we don't know but in this this case they succeeded in getting through but had they not it would have been pandemonium yet again and there would have been subpoenas and courts and Tim Cook on the stand telling them that that's not how iOS works and while it didn't happen this time I I will say you know given the state of the world that we're in it feels like it it's inevitable that it will happen again and we having this discussion again so I just that piece that I wrote maybe about an assassination attempt that happened this past week it might be about you know them not being able to get in the phone at that second and then I think 2 hours later actually getting into it um there is actually but the information in between the information in between all of that I think is the timely conversation that we should be having yes I agree but there is actually a third option given how fast it was maybe somebody in the shoter family knew his passcode it could be as simple as that and the family is cooperating yes I no question you this is going to come up again and and not I think just from uh uh Apple or Google should be doing this but also it's very easy for politicians to blame Apple and Google well we've just had a government change here but the last slot um at one point the conservative government in the UK actually said they were in discussions with apple to get a back door into iOS and at the time Apple basically said who no they had they had never even been contacted and that's what our government was saying publicly and it's just you know it's all politics again we're not we're not getting into on this show but technology part of the discussion wanted to mention it here and uh of course as always please feel free to reach out talk to us uh let us know what you think about this privacy debacle uh I still am on the side of consumer privacy protections encryption all of that is very important and if we give that up there's no going back yes there's no and there are other ways through these systems be it paying the Israeli firm celebrite some unknown sum of money to get access to their hacking tools because they found a back door not a back door but a a route through the encryption that Apple hasn't patched yet right that is one of many ways of course there's also the option of just not relying on the phone for investigations but let's get off this very dreary subject and uh talk about something a little bit more fun like advertisements I did not know where that was going to go then but okay as in this case though I know what you mean and it's I know it because you explained it to me um what's the name of the company that Apple just signed a deal with tomola or something tabula right you said to me oh and I've lost it again Chum something what's the type of ads you explaining to me it's the Chum Bucket from SpongeBob pants no no no I'm joking it is a chumbox chumbox ads are so if anyone navigating the internet has seen them before I guarantee it at the bottom of any article or any website that has these kinds of ads you will see uh six doctors agree that this will kill you or uh you you know this this this has a box of puppies you'll never know what the other thing in there is or click here to find out what the top seven things this Kardashian thinks right like is it's just that is a chumbox ad and tabula is famous for them basic or inFAMOUS I suppose uh and they're an increasingly wealthy ad firm um big enough and Wealthy enough apparently to climb into bed with Apple so uh what what do you know about this situation well I hadn't heard the word before uh but I've Seen Those ads and I have resisted them uh but if trying to forget should we say uh the quality of headlines that they produced uh what you just said then about them being big enough that's the issue it's a Global Network so apple is able to use one company worldwide and you can see the appeal of that for there's there is an opportunity to have a rational discussion here Apple could be there's there is a possibility now hear me out working with them to use their Network to produce good ads now this is all about Apple news I don't know if we've said that yet so Apple has partnered with tabula to provide ads for Apple news oh and also the Apple stocks app which I had no idea had ads in because when do I ever open the stocks up but apparently it's run by Apple news it's just like a subcategory of Apple news basically fair you think there's a you think there's a future there a good future well I wanted to I only wanted to have this discussion because um there's people out there I I've seen this before well I pay for Apple news plus why don't I get an adree experience for all of Apple news well there's many reasons but the simplest answer is Apple news is a news aggregating app Apple serving Apple Insider articles for example isn't um Apple running Apple Insider and Publishing articles on Apple news right they're Gathering URLs from the internet like an RSS client and pushing them into their device and uh when someone opens a an article in Apple news they're nine times out of 10 uh going to open it in Apple news in a format for Apple news and if that content is being shown to the user without going to the website the uh publisher needs to be paid somehow um and that is done by having embedded ads just like the website would have within the article on Apple news so it's a it's a symbiotic relationship uh you cannot unless Apple closed off Apple news and said no one gets in unless you participate in a paid subscription service and it just becomes very complex after that and then they have to Dey out the payments and you just can't do a news aggregator ad free um I don't think like there could be an adree section Apple news plus technically is an adree section filled with magazines which have ads in them or um you know premium content from various Publishers that don't have ads which is a nicer experience but the overall app getting all of the webs information from all of these sources that use Apple news has to have some kind of monetization strategy and the only way to do that is ADS so just just to make it clear it's right now impossible I I I don't know of a a way to do it that would make sense in given the current model of Apple news to not have ads so in this world where we need ads for this app to function where do we get them from and Apple news has been notorious for being terrible about ads that I don't even understand where half of these things come from they're certainly not and okay to be fair Google ads are garbage too I'm advertised different kinds of um women's underwear and uh cheese that will make my muscles grow I don't know just it's Google ads are just absolutely out of this world lately or take this quiz and to find out if you're as smart as uh Steve jobs or whatever like that's the kind of Google ads I'm seeing um so I they're all bad uh and maybe I don't know working with tabula getting Under One Roof advertising wise maybe they'll have a little more control and be able to control the quality a little bit more but more cynical take is actually no this is just going to be bad it's just going to be worse we're going to get your see your doctor about these different kinds of skin conditions within you know that kind of I don't know it's just terrible I realized one thing we don't know is whether Apple has kind of seeded the whole thing to this company as um I when I looked on radio times.com the system they had there was that they had a small little ad sales team that sold as many ads as they could and uh whenever they could there was always so many slots on the page and radio times if they couldn't fill them they handed that slot over to what was called a network ad and there would be a company that would you know get bids for people and any company could bid to be on radi times through it so it meant for the magazine they got lesser quality cheaper ads appearing every now and again but at least all the holes were filled through this company uh I don't know whether uh Apple is going to carry on selling itself and letting these people in the holes but we'll see I imagine we'll see quite a lot yeah if I had a wish for apple and the advertising game is I've seen other people say apple doesn't need ads I get I get the the point Point you're making but they're already in the business they're not leaving it so my argument would be is if Apple's going to be in ads for the App Store and for Apple news because that's the only places they have an ad business right now do it better just do the Apple thing and find a way to do it better stop don't because right now what apple is doing especially in Apple news is they're doing what the rest of the web is doing is they're just selling banners and sidebar things that get automatically populated based on some sort of um IP address data aggregate or whatever right they're and they're auctioning off these ads and they're all terrible because nobody I I have yet to meet a human being who has seen an ad and said I'm going to click on that I'm going to follow through I'm going to buy the thing they're they're selling me like it's presumably enough do that it's worth them carrying on but apparently there there there's this business of billions of people apparently doing this but I just I just haven't met any of them maybe I just don't live in the right circles or something but actually sorry I just I just put this together in my head you are the perfect person to ask this um adverts for games yeah in so many iPhone uh apps there'll be a little commercial for a game without fail the game looks so awful and so amateur and just embarrassment to have it on my screen uh I Come Away thinking all iPhone games are Dreadful is it just the Dreadful ones that advertise are they good so are you're talking about like Clash of Clans and gin impact and stuff like that I can't say any of the names have ever gone into my head I've just thought right really or are you talking about the little stick figure guy and there's like a pool of lava and a pool chain saying pull this chain and save the lady in the gold and I don't know like the cuz those are obviously sort of thing yeah sure well those are not real games and um those are actually fishing ads that force you to go to a website that try to sell you something uh someone has actually I I I don't have the website off hand you're just going to have to find it but um someone actually went and said hey you know all those dumb ad games that don't exist I went and made those and put them into an app so you can go and try them they're all terrible um but yeah they're all they're all fake clickbait basically they're like trying to entice you to click on the ad it's forcing you to like try to participate in this game when in fact all it does is redirect you to an ad website that tries to sell you something um but if you're talking about actually actual app advertisements eh they have money they're going to they're going to advertise that's just the internet do they look bad that they probably just look bad to you Clash of Clans is one of the most popular games on the planet I don't know uh for some reason people still play it I don't play it but like they're successful for a reason they're addicting people like them uh ads ads work I guess but for me being the conscious consumer that I am I don't need advertising other people do generally speaking the the point of advertising is to inform the consumer that your product exists the whole idea is I don't know 200 years ago we figured out I don't know maybe centuries ago but I'm talking about more modern venues not uh poster board on the side of the Greek uh Market um I'm talking about Modern Advertising exists as a part of capitalism to say I have a product that you want but you don't know that you want it until you just saw this billboard for it um um and then we've commoditized that to the point of flashing Java banners and Yahoo uh Internet Explorer toolbars right like that and that was the the bottom and that was terrible for the internet uh and then we've crawled out of that terrible hole and now here we are today with Google's version of it which is better than that adwar garbage but still not that great and I still think there's a better way to advertise uh because technically speaking need it um how else you discover new things it's just we've gone down this Rabbit Hole of making it the race to the bottom to where anything can be an ad you can advertise politics you can advertise uh apps or toothbrushes or and it it's lost all meaning we're no longer trying to say hey my thing is so amazing come see it no now ads are about here's this link on my web page I don't care what it shows as long as a detector in the code can detect that you your eyes or your browser page stayed on this ad long enough we can pay pennies on the dollar to the website for you seeing this thing it doesn't matter what it is and now that because of that part because of the doesn't matter part they can show you whatever they want and it's just the and the race seems to be continuing they're just continuing to make these things worse so I pause it through this whole discussion that we've had in 5 minutes on ads um that Apple could maybe prove they can do it better because yeah sure there there there's consumers like me out there that get their information from other resources journalism blogs whatever uh so I personally don't always need advertising I know what socks I want to buy I know what clothes that I like to have I like I know what video games I'm going to buy because I get the information from other places but ads do serve a purpose maybe you didn't know this movie existed maybe you didn't know this product existed or this perfect like this in a perfect world Google knowing what you just bought at Walgreens and what geographic location that you're in and what relationship you have to McDonald's will produce the perfect ad for the toothpaste that you've always wanted okay sure that that maybe in a perfect world that could technically work but I think it's broken and yet apple is following the same path as everyone else in this race to the bottom of show sh this garbage in Apple news and maybe we deserve better and maybe Apple could show us what's better but they haven't yet is this a good or a bad time to advertise Apple Insider plus there are good ads like yes like you mentioned there's ads in our podcast uh the the the partners for Apple Insider we select we don't just let anyone come in we we reject some of them because they're just not good products or they just don't belong on our podcast and then the people who don't want to hear those ads can pay money for Apple Insider plus and so this has turned into an advertisement for a program that you enjoy that you listen to and maybe you didn't know that hey I can get this ad free and get a bonus segment guess what I just advertised to you but was that useful probably right I actually studied marketing um I did a computer course in college and I had an option of more maths which I was weak on at the time or marketing and I took marketing believeing it' be easier and it wasn't but what I really learned was the entire point of marketing is find you have a product you find the person who will like it that it will be useful for and you get it to them so they are aware of it uh my marketing Ledger had this phrase for the opposite they're just sort of mass advertising he called that spray spray and prey you just shout at everybody whereas marketing should be rifle shoty called it these days that's possibly not a great term but he meant directed for it and I always felt that with things like app insida plus we're telling you about this thing cuz we think you will like it and yeah that feels right to me I have nothing against advertising at all except for the Dreadful games that I'm now even more suspicious of on my iPhone thanks to you have have I said anything crazy here I I genuinely believe that there is a place in the world for advertising and commercials or what what have you it's just it's gotten so so bad and now here we are at this weird place in the internet we I know we got to conclude we're in this weird place in the internet where Google and companies like it have spent the last 20 years telling everyone this is how you monetize the internet and then they pulled the rug out from under us with this AI business that isn't really Ai and claiming that oh it's all safe it's all it's all kosher all this data that we've collected about you promising to deliver ads is actually now going to undermine your business right and so so in the race to the bottom and we're showing worse and worse ads we're making a worse and worse internet now we're being told that all of that is worthless and um advertising can't pay the bills anymore and AI is the future and now we're just kind of like what what was the point then and I guess the point was to get all of our data so they can train these Bots um I I don't know what the answer is what's next for the internet but I I will say more tasteful better advertising could be a start and that's where Partnerships come in that's where collaborations come in that's why when you see sponsored content on Apple Insider that isn't us saying hey this guy just paid us to to talk about this garbage no it's because we had an honest thought that maybe this might be something useful to somebody and yeah there's there's money exchang in the background but that's how our business can exist and if sorry you just reminded me this is not Apple inside and this is I can't remember what FM it was 15 years ago something like that I was doing something else now I wasn't looking for advertisers or anything like that but I was approached by a mattress company who said if you write something good about us and keep it up for a year we'll pay you $20 and I went back to him and saying you know look whatever the topic was it was nothing to do with beds there's no way this is of any interest to my lists of viewers whatever it was and they came and say all right all right $30 yeah no I stopped that conversation there but okay well I would like to say this is the Apple Insider podcast it's Tech show and part of tech I suppose is this I mean um this discussion that we've been having and uh so I I I would like to hear what you guys have to say about you know advert how do you feel about advertising do you go about your day and use Tik Tok and Instagram and just swipe past the ads and not even think about it do you find any of them useful have you ever clicked on something in an ad and bought it I know like it just the whole thing it feels like it's a contract that's broken and maybe maybe Apple can fix it maybe someone else can fix it I don't know maybe Google is shooting itself in the foot here and is going to break the internet for a couple years until we figure out a new way to monetize it but I just find the whole thing very interesting as a discussion and uh a good place to uh end the show there's more that we could have covered we'll probably throw it in the show notes anyway Apple's um selling some iPhones they do they do good money there uh uh their stock market PR uh went up very quickly because uh people think that Apple intelligence is going to drive an iPhone 16 super cycle lots of stuff like that but good show today William I think uh they people want to have this conversation continue it maybe they won't find you on the internet where can they find you uh I've been saying this a lot l in fact I said during the ad read which I just mentioned now um the email is the one for me one of our sponsors is fast mail and I think it's just an amazing service um for contacting people email is my favorite way because I just enjoy that film of sometimes long form communication rather than the odd little tweet but you're more of a well notot a tweeter you're a master Dona aren't you yeah uh toot is their uh verb I suppose yeah uh because it's an elephant and they toot with their trunk or maybe it's a trumpet uh they they've because people have used trumpets there as well yeah it's a very silly name that they people have tried to get rid of they tried to call it post for a while but uh the word toot keeps coming back so I think it's here to stay um no I yeah I use midon it's where I am um you can always follow me there chat with me please of course have a discussion about the podcast I love to hear from you you know um email can be found for me and William both on any article that we've written and uh yeah reach out talk to us about the show talk to us about nasty old advertising and uh leave a review uh we've been getting some excellent reviews on the uh podcast app uh you can review us there any podcast of app of your choice I believe overcast let you do stars there's all these different ways that you can rate the show or uh have discussions about it just you know reach out and let us know what you think always happy to hear uh plus of course you're often onome kit insid up insiders Monday um Monday morning uh sorry I had a time zone flip there it's middle of the night for me when that pops up I believe uh I'll be missing out on the next couple episodes and uh as well here on Apple Insider I will be on vacation so you won't probably not hear me next week and you certainly won't hear me the week after and uh but I will return to discuss the future and uh I won't reveal the plans for them because I don't think we know yet and uh but yes I I will be back from vacation eventually so if you do not hear me for a couple weeks don't worry I will return vacation of oh I know I T I mistakenly picked ticked the vocation box uh when I started out that's where I went wrong isn't it clearly of course well I'd like to thank our you're fine I'd like to thank our sponsors once again Zach do and FastMail and thank everyone for listening and stick around for app Insider plus you know uh it's going to be a fun one wearable technology and uh our history and our favorite ideas around it and uh we'll talk to you guys next weekhello and welcome to the Apple Insider podcast our sponsors this week are zakok and FastMail I'm joined once again by William Gallagher at least I'm pretty sure it's William um he may have returned from his brief tenure at uh tuaw this week premium subscribers get the adree episode as always and an apple Insider plus segment will be about wearables our history with them and uh you know generally what we think maybe we want some more I I wouldn't mind a pair of shoes what about you William okay uh I thought you were going to say how are you and I was I was ready to say grumpy for all sorts of reasons but actually that just made me laugh there I did a Young Writers uh thing like was at an award ceremony stuff and one of the Young Writers over the weekend had one of those shoes as you walk flashes a light I want shoes like that give me that with an Apple logo possibly and I'd be in yeah so there you go shoes brighten everything didn't they sell a pair of apples vintage shoes for hundreds of thousands of dollars recently yes not my size so I couldn't bid right yeah that that's what stopped me as well uh plus it wasn't in blue so you know speaking of Steve Jobs and uh not his shoes wait what did they sell though they didn't sell his shoes though they s sold his Sports coat or something uh his whole who was his whole suit it must have been his whole suit uh from 40 years ago came up recently the the suit model he wore for his photograph uh with a Mac I believe oh that one oh goodness that's what yeah that's why it sold so because you know Steve Jobs wasn't known for suits he was known for Bare Feet um it's true I I wanted to point out so Steve Jobs archive just dropped this bombshell on us right before we recorded I managed to watch the short video at the top and read the full body of work uh my goodness very good I want everyone to go check that out this one is uh titled what was this one called the objects of our the object of our life for it and it's a 55 minute really rare I'd never even heard of this one before uh talk that Steve Jobs gave in Aspen at a design conference in 1983 so before even the Mac was out and it's astounding I think actually I mean he's not as Pol he's nowhere near as polished as usual and yet somehow that's very appealing and uh Johnny IV's intro in the Steve Jobs archive talks about him being prophetic and he really is it's like he's already been to 2024 and gone back so I love uh watching people in the 70s and 80s describe things they expect the future to be and um anytime people discuss the internet um and computers but pre internet right yeah it's always fun because PE we've heard Steve Jobs we've heard other people describe how computers are going to be very important and eventually uh they will Network together and we'll be able to send things to each other but they still couldn't fathom what we would do with that time in this in In This Very uh brief it was 55 minutes but I watched the two-minute introduction and even then it was enough just to get get an idea of it and he said uh in by 1986 so this would be 3 years later people would spend at least 3 hours a day on the machine more time than they would spend driving their car and that was his um basically his description and the people he was talking to this was a design convention so the entire concept of the uh Speech and what he's talking about is why we design and why computers are going to be important for that in the future and he made a A sly jab at uh what was supposedly IBM at the time who was overtaking Apple 2 sales um by saying you know anyone can sell you know exploitive looking computers um but we're out here trying to design ones that look good and it doesn't cost anymore to make them look good so we want to and we think that that's important and I need your help he asked said the designers I need your help making sure this happens so just a really fascinating look into Steve Jobs at what was it 28 years old my goodness all the videos I usually watch about things of the future of the Internet it's like um there's one is was it an AT&T video that said by I don't know 2000 something there' be a computer in every city and things like this and Arthur C Clark has done some um uh what's the word for Arthur C Clark that's not a compliment uh he's a bit up himself talking about the future computers enough so that every time he's right you're slightly irritated by it but with jobs it actually feels like cuz he's not talking about the machines he's talking about us and our use of I think which makes it um Timeless in a way I am still of the opinion that Apple TV plus and the Steve Jobs archive should work together to make a bespoke only Apple could make documentary I'm sure it'd be fluff I'm sure it would be polished and they would ignore some of the bad more bad things whatever but they have access to things that we haven't even fathomed uh this particular speech there's been Snippets shared audio clips of it um before it's been mentioned before particularly I am aware of the part where he describes how uh it's near the end of the speech where he just takes a moment to say you know I didn't make the clothes I'm wearing on my back I we I didn't invent the language that I'm speaking I didn't invent the mathematics that that we use so my and it was a question about retention at Apple why do so many people join Apple since its creation to now and not leave your retention numbers are crazy and basically said well we spend so much of our Time Of Our Lives using things that other people have made and other people have designed and created that it feels important to be a part of something that gets to put something back into the world and I think that Mantra is still exists at Apple today it's a famous quote and I've did it as well but I didn't realize actually where he first said it uh so I'm quite riveted by this I mean I'm to design and stuff so it's good I also Johnny IV is um he writes really well in an introduction there straight to it I'm sure he's very edited well someone looked at that but yes it was a very it was just all very well done uh if you appreciate Apple at all or even even if you're just kind of whatever about Steve Jobs it's still a good piece of History go check it out um I love that the archive continues to put out this stuff and uh I hope we see more soon so speaking of things from the past uh by the way he did mention artificial intelligence at the Lisa uh event that took place the day before and I had to watch that clip it's a minute long and um it's funny how we've been talking about this stuff for so long right so in the main event he did mention that computers were 36 years old um in 1983 the the concept of a computer had was invented and started to be produced uh 36 years prior and here we are today well beyond 36 years later so let's see N I was waiting 1984 is to 2024 to make the math easy uh yeah don't even think about it but my goodness yeah we are 40 years later um and wow just the the amount of things that have changed but here he is on stage uh you know just showing off the Lisa and saying talking about how even to today for him then they were thinking about about computers thinking like people and human consciousness and this has always been a thing and uh now I wonder what he would think about 40 years later Apple coming out with something called Apple intelligence and people calling uh dumb algorithms that lie artificial intelligence and where we are with all this today I would love to hear what he had to say about that but we have to move on because we didn't get to try out artificial intelligence for our reviews but we got to try everything else in the Mac OS and iOS betas and we uh William and I got to produce reviews looking at these features and I've had a couple of questions about well how do you review a beta well you do you just you know you install it and you use it and then you write about it like anything else I thought it was a funny question um it's the operating system uh Apple announc it at WWDC I'm sure we'll see some tweaks between now and then Apple intelligence will eventually arrive and we will review that as well uh revisit iOS 18 and Mac again in the future but this is a snapshot of today what did you think of how the reviews turn well I really enjoyed reading yours because although I did put on iOS 18 and eventually iPad OS 18 as well shouldn't have done but I did um I was concentrating on the Mac uh it's funny until you said it there the question about how do you review beta um because these are operating systems so they are underneath they underpin everything so actually I get it um how do you start looking at these things and what you do is just like you said you use them you work away as normal you see the differences plus Apple did highlight some things so you explicitly go uh give those a poke and see what happens uh there wasn't as much of that poking about on the Mac as there is on iOS but still well I was going to say but still I like it I'm just you heard the hesitation it's because I'm thinking until Apple intelligence rolls out it feels like like a stunted release it's there's yeah especially in MACC OS yeah there was just specific Mac OS feature-wise we got window tiling and iPhone mirroring that's very good well it's not finished yet iPhone mirroring it's very good yes and then the passwords app of course yeah it's quite interesting I've realized uh I mean I'm still a one password user and for so many years uh you go to a password field on a website and there's been this little fight between Safari and one password ever who displays their box first and just in the last few days I've been noticing one password doesn't get a look in uh Apple's own password app just seem right I'm here I'm all you need this is fine that's it I I like the passwords app I am excited that it's at Standalone now and the team over there working on that is excellent it can only mean good things we're going to get more features in the future they're obviously always iterating and now that it's out of settings it feels like it's taking a step up in importance it's going to actually get more attention more features more spotlights in the future so um yeah but Mac OS yeah outside of mirroring which uh we've discussed that that's an interesting feature I actually haven't tried yet cuz um my Mac doesn't really get much use but every time I twitch but okay breathe yes uh it's well I mean that's the thing though I'm we I I if I'm using my Mac generally speaking it might be through the Vision Pro um and I can't use iPhone mirroring inside the Vision Pro because it's a continuity feature and you can only have one at a time so to trade off can't have iPad mirroring on the Mac which would actually be just as handy but perhaps that will I'm not so sure how useful that would be other than oh I get to access my device because you can run iPad apps on the Mac right um and I suppose the same could be said about iPhone apps on the Mac but uh people have found utility in it so I think it's I'm surprised how much of you used it I mean the example I keep telling people is that my one of my online banks uh their website is not very good their iPhone app is better so every now and again I just I call up the iPhone and use it on there on my Mac uh but one thing that I was hoping that hasn't happened because of this is um previously last year on maos Sonoma there was this really clever feature that you could have widgets uh on your Mac that were from your iPhone so even if you didn't have the Mac equivalent app you could still install a widget like taken from your iPhone and put on the screen and it's such a clever thing and it's totally rubbish because if the app does anything at all uh it's worthless on the Mac because you try to use it and it just puts up a mage saying please open this on your iPhone and I thought maybe with iPhone mirroring if your iPhone is connected will the widgets just do what they need to do and so far no they don't no connect of course again got to put this in the usual it's the beta so who knows things can change by the release uh iOS 18 wise I found it to be a pretty robust release uh that was kind of my Approach for the review it's there's as much here as any other release and uh we haven't even got taple intelligence yet so that's why I kind of approached it as hey look at all there's just so much customization so much opportunity throughout the operating system so many new things to test and try out and yet we still have this big temp pole feature that hasn't arrived yet weird isn't it but um you're right about it being robust I I've had one bug which is and it's still lasting on whatever the latest developer beter is that every now and again for no apparent reason my iPhone will switch on do not disturb uh and this means I I picked up the phone the other night uh to do something and found I'd missed 12 phone calls every one of which I wanted to miss so I'm going to I'm filing a report with apple please please keep this bug yeah please thank you for the feature uh I think I've been thinking about this and um have you checked every device for different Focus modes and different implementations because it's not just your iPhone your your Mac can turn on do not disturb on yes CU there's a way you can even tell Siri to figure it out for you and put on these turns unless Siri think you know he doesn't want to hear from them and switches it on uh I can't see a patent to it there's something odd happening here maybe screen time automations or you've put it inside of uh maybe use a home automation and you've put Do Not Disturb in there not as F may I mean maybe you have a Trigger action for turning on uh when you open and uh the books app to put it in do not disturb but you don't have a leave do not disturb action there's there's so many ways that this could happen but it didn't happen before the beaters and I know I haven't changed anything I do I have one um automation that does that the uh I open a particular camera app and it switches on do not disturb but I've tried it gone in and out and I do remember to have the off din stuff afterwards I think it's just a fluke and it'll go away um but there is one bug going I mean I know we talking about new features but this bug intrigues me because I haven't had it at all I've couple people have said that they lose the icons uh on their iPhone and also the names of the apps underneath so they've just got this grid of white squarish things uh you have you had that's only when you're changing the icons with a customization feature and that's mostly a buffer they'll eventually come back or you could just change Focus modes or something and kind of force it to happen but I I have seen that bug too I think it's just the speed at which it's changing all the icons sometimes lags I think this tells you how little uh adjustments I've been making to my I made a page with so not with breaking the grid just a single line of them I found that quite handy but I haven't changed any icon colors I have a a question so we found out uh right before last episode I don't think we got to it though that how apple is doing this new dark mode feature in beta 3 where the dark icons are forced onto every icon possible and there's a filter applied on top if it can't be changed and uh it's being doing it's being done with basic math apparently um there's not even you can't even really call it an algorithm it's just doing uh surface detection and it's mathematically processing it it's kind of funny uh so even and they're not even doing this special notation of oh it's Facebook so we're going to design a specific dark mod ion note like it just the math figured out to use the blue from the background for the letter and then change the background to dark so I wanted to ask you uh now that we've had a little bit of time to mess with this and see it with other apps and alternative icons what do you think of Apple forcing this Behavior onto every app is this kind of like from your perspective painful from a design side of things like You're we're taking away the control of the designers or is this a good thing because now we have more uniform consistency across the ecosystem whether or not Google ever updates its app icons my heart says terrible terrible idea but then I never even switch on dark mode uh I can't remember with dark mode it doesn't just it reverses out it puts black does it change app icons you have no it's a separate dark so there's dark mode across the system for how the apps behave and then there's dark icon mode so when you're in the wiggle mode you can tap a button in the top left corner select customize and then a thing a drawer pops up from the bottom of the phone that lets you pick what icon types you want to use whether it be light dark tinted or uh Dynam I would say I'll never use that and I can say I've NE I I have never had any point chosen a different icon for any app but there are one or two where the icon is so ugly that I wouldn't mind changing it so maybe you can't have um Apple's overriding color change on just one app that you don't like can you okay no it it's a uniform application across the entire system but of course individual app icons or apps from third party apps uh can offers alternate yeah just the one I'm thinking of is so ugly I don't really expect the designers to come up with Alternatives that are any better but that's very har no I'm all right with Apple Maps I'm never going to tell you what this app is that I don't like I I do like the dark mode stuff uh like the dark icons for weather even surprise me like they did a good job there uh and what's nice is uh a developer told me um you can submit your own versions so it's not the math is going to happen on things that don't have dark icons or uh don't have an alternative in the system uh so that's where the math is applied like forcing Facebook or Google's icons to be dark mode or tinted um but if you do submit alternative app icons you can submit this is for the tinted mode this is for the dark mode this is for the light mode and show it in the UI that lets users see when they select an icon which icon they're going to get based on which icon mode they're in so that's very handy I'm glad that uh apple is forcing it so I think it's the best of both worlds because for me personally uh I can't stand it when I see a bright white icon like if I use Google I I don't but uh the icon is a bright white icon with a the g in it um but the dark mode changes that white to black Al uh with that with the with the math or whatever great Google would never do that they're never they're just never going to update that icon uh they don't care about Apple devices that 6 years from now we'll see a dark mode icon from Google if Apple made it a thing but no instead Apple just forced it on the icon and we're done that's it that's all I had to do but then over here at carrot weather or Ivory or something the developers who do care can just submit the things they want so that their artwork can be reflected by their taste and not forced by the math I It's the Best of Both Worlds I was thinking you say Google I'm thinking Microsoft will never bother changeing it but someone like the Omni group I think they already have offer hold turn they're bound to do people that are true Mac and iPhone developers I think will be into this so that's go well we have plenty to talk about today so the the reviews are out there go give them a read let us know what you think I would love to know what you guys thought of my review this time I used uh Bento style boxes for a lot of the features just for fun to see how that would turn out and uh so far I think they look pretty good on our website I think they they they arranged really well and they just present the features cuz I like you know I use pix uh p i I say it wrong every time pixel met sewing I don't know pixo uh yeah a p p i c s e w i I always want to say it wrong because uh I guess the vowels sounds I I don't know the way they're arranged it makes me want to say pixu which is not right uh pixo is a stitching app but uh for uh screenshot screenshot stitching my goodness but it has a feature in there that lets you add device frames and I've used that for ages because it creates a perfect transparent device frame screenshot then I add it to designer get a background on it and that's how you get most of my uh framed screenshots you'll see those in the review as well but I those only can be used so many ways uh cut off the top cut off the bottom right that eventually you're using the same image over and over again so I I I wanted to differentiate a little bit uh especially in such an image heavy review like this one uh and threw in some good I usually don't like device frames pixel M pro has the option as well to do it and I've been playing a bit more with that lately but I just feel like I know what the phone looks like it's the screen you're trying to show me that's what I'm interested in I think I think the key here is uh and I understand it's a taste thing and you know there's nothing wrong with your opinion um but I I do believe that this is the using device frames helps I don't know uh guide your eyes I suppose so if it's just a I've seen these before where people take four screenshots and then just lay them side by side with no Gap um if it's just a a a rectangle with four screenshots side by side you can't see where one starts and one ends and it's just this jumble of UI um I feel like it's just it it's a disservice to the users I think having the frames yes they take up more space they but they also require you to do more thinking when you're laying out the image and everything but that's a little inside baseball uh we can pick up I mean uh I'm almost the opposite I like three images side by side but it's I'm a recovering Catholic it's a triptic that's the way I look at it so yes this is getting off the topic is I'm sorry maybe you should make it into stained glass oh it's Apple I mean they've done dark this year next year the stained glass version of iOS the stained glass I'd play with that I okay yes well so I don't know I I quite enjoy the review I did want to point out just for uh the first image in my review might look like device frames on a background but that is actually a photo so I just wanted to point that out uh that the top image in my review is a photo of my iPhone I did include a couple of photos as well CU I enjoy photography um so I photograph my phone with different backgrounds and lock screens and stuff but the top hero artwork on the review is a photograph not a frame even though it look that way I did that on purpose though because I thought it would be there is kind of an obvious question uh what in the world did you photograph your iPhone with if you couldn't use your iPhone to do the photography there not like other cameras in the world are there no I have I have a Sony a72 it's um it's aging a little bit I I'm very interested in upgrading at some point but the it honestly it still produces excellent photos cameras aren't like other devices you don't have to upgrade them every year so it's another world it's a whole another world and they're very expensive and mine was very expensive and upgrading it would cost me a lot of money that I already spent on a Vision Pro so I'll I'll the camera that takes beautiful pictures I'll I'll go ahead and keep like it's not going to take less beautiful pictures over time it's not like Sony does an update that uh you know is going to ruin my picture quality and force me to upgrade my camera because that's how that works right um anyway just actually I just thought you also bought an iPad Pro and uh just last weekend I still have not worn an apple Vision Pro but now that here in the UK I was in an Apple store I was in between a couple of events and I had a minute to chip in and in my mind it was I've got to compare the the new iPad Pro to the M1 um 11in one I've got and it is shockingly I was so stunned by everybody says oh it's light and you pick it everything no this is a piece of cardboard where's the real thing um so yes I I en video you quite a lot last Saturday this episode is brought to you by Zach do zok is a free app and website where you can search and compare highquality in network doctors choose the right one for your needs and click to instantly book an appointment and instantly is the word well doctors also a word and right high quality there's two more but I'm in the UK where I obviously can't use America zck do and don't get me started on how great National Health Services here but even a hym of praise to the UK's NHS would not use the word instantly whereas with Zach do instantly doesn't just mean it's fast once you found the doctor you need it means the entire process is we're talking about uh in network appointments with any of more than 100,000 Health Care Providers across every specialty from mental health to dental health to Eye Care to skin care and much more and this is the kicker for me as as an Englishman only familiar with us Healthcare from friends telling me all about it Zach do removes just removes a key problem ordinarily if you find a doctor you need a doctor who is near you and a doctor who has appointments available you can then find out that he or she will not take your insurance and sometimes you can only find that out at the very end of the process whereas with zck do that just isn't the thing you see the doctors who take your insurance that's all I can't actually imagine why they all systems that why would you use a system that doesn't do that but then too I mean it's great having all this data about insurance and appointments and every healthc Care Professionals particular specialisms but on top of all of that everyone is also rated by verified patients plus zok appointments they just happen fast typically within 24 4 to 72 hours of booking but you can even score same day appointments so you need a doctor stop putting off that doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com appleinsider to find and to instantly book a toprated doctor today that's zck do.com Z excuse me I keep doing that Z do.com slapple inssider zocdoc.com appleinsider and thank you to zok for supporting the Apple Insider podcast I think uh this would be a good spot to stick in apple just released a new Underdog video about 9 Minutes in length I want to know your opinion on this and I I'll let you get to it in a second and describe what the video is about but um it it makes me think man I am such a dork but I would totally love even just one Apple TV plus program to be this ridiculous ully like apple a drink just I don't know why but there's something about it that's like wow I do this I use that stuff they're using that stuff right I don't know maybe I'm just a I don't think it would have the legs for a whole hour or a whole series no I mean no not an hour maybe a sitcom you know Everybody Loves Raymond but he has an iPhone I mean the current one um I forgotten the title but the out of office the Underdog's out of office it's a 10 just under 10 minutes one and last year's was about 8 minutes and they're they're build as comedies in a way they're adverts but they're comedies well just they are very very good at the tension of can these people use these tools in time to do something and of course they can Apple's never going to have their own products fail but it's exceptionally well done and involving and very funny and I said at the at the top I said I was grumpy and actually it's this I'm grumpy about we've been having these uh now for 5 years and apple apple just a credits at the end for you know uh stickies are accredited uh point of the video now yes the products are credited the apps are credited but not the ACT designers script writers I I do notice that in the YouTube description uh there's an original music credit and I just got to assume whoever that is cu I can't pronounce it has negotiated a better contracts than any of the rest of them but it it does it bothers me a lot that something uh that's celebrating creativity under pressure and that is so well done is Anonymous in every other way than we used pages and the the Snoopy watch face at some point so bugs me but I was I was delighted to see that it was out and I watched it instantly and uh I feel quite invested with these characters now after 5 years and for they're always I've realized they're always designing boxes well yeah that's the story isn't it I don't remember what they originally did in when they the characters were all in an office um at first was that packaging then yes the first uh the first the first episode was about them designing a pizza box yes and then they span off their own business which is packaging design which is yeah I won't I won't reveal what the uh latest one is about cuz I think it's kind of a stinger and I think it's really funny um but yes uh the ad I think does a really good job and let me let me expand upon my thought here no I don't think a TV show featuring Apple products in every 4 seconds would be a good TV show of course not I just mean I don't know I I I kind of I've I have enjoyed so far um the modernday dramas in Apple TV uh where people are using Apple products um I I and I'm aware that other movies and films uh generally do use Apple products they put a big sticker over the Apple logo to make us not realize it's an orange iMac for some reason um right like obviously but I don't know I it just it's kind of fun to see that represented in media and uh I like the technology there I like people using it even though uh like we've made the joke before nobody on Earth has ever said let me Bing that that's a paid promotion that they inserted into the uh TV TV or movie so I can see how this would make it worse in some ways but again I I think Apple TV plus so far has been very tasty way they've done it and of course this is a blatant advertisement um but I I don't know I just thought it was kind of fun having this as a because all right if you're in this world and you're an apple nerd and you're you're tech nerd in general uh there's probably a not insignificant chance that you're going to see this and be like oh I want to show this to my friends or family because this is just a fun ad how many times have we done that and they'd be like why are we watching this why are we looking at this like what what are you what are you showing me right now and I'm glad that was able to do this kind of presentation in a way that maybe I can show it to other people and then not immediately reject it I think we make it sound if you haven't seen any of these then I think it sounds like apple does a parade of devices and things but it actually it in a weird way sounds so strange it does not feel forced it's these characters with these devices would do that to do this it feels natural for what they want nobody's going to stop in the middle of their Working Day and switch switch to another platform to do something so yes they there's a lot of them and they're using a lot of these things but it doesn't feel unnatural it actually just feels ad most fun I find it yeah I did find it funny that he uh used the cont uh name drop feature with the concierge right or with the luggage Handler that this is like we're going to exchange contact details I'm like I don't know but okay sure yeah go for it also you met like a there about what you think about this as a TV show I want to just say that my perspective is not um yes I think if it was all Apple all the time Apple products fine but I I think the pacing of these is so well done but you couldn't continue that for longer than the eight or 10 minutes no uh for oh no no this the pacing of this was very much a montage like this would be a part of a TV show not the entire TV show yeah that it's a thriller actually uh I mean I think Al last year when it was about a Macbook having been stolen it was a very clear Thriller but it has that Rhythm and pace and it's very hard to uh support that in the middle of an hour if the whole thing isn't like it and the whole thing can't be if if anyone's have you seen the bear although I understand it lots ofy nominations no yeah just watch I don't need you to watch the show all right just watch the first episode it's like 26 minutes but it is that it is just 26 minutes of oh dear God we're on this roller coaster everything is happening but they execute it so well that I feel like yeah a whole season couldn't last that way I would probably have a heart attack but like them doing that in one episode was really excellent but I think I read the script to that once but I never got around to watching for there's some strs that work so well on the page you rush to see them on screen and others they work even better on the P well I've seen it now but uh I'll go have a look proper look at it yeah I want to I want to continue our media Bend um speaking you you mentioned Awards uh Apple got what 11 uh this is quite funny was there was there more and other the emies it's it is actually and this sounds so silly but it's actually hard to count how many awards her company has got I last year Apple itself didn't count uh the fact that it got an Emmy Award for its um the Super Bowl halftime show and I don't know why it aired on Fox it got five nominations Apple didn't include it in its own count this year the EM the television Academy made this the usual big presentation of all of the awards they read out um I think it's actually 11 categories within which Apple got conly 11 nominations and that's it Awards in September thank you very much good night and then there are all these other categories that they just didn't bother mentioning that slipped out in a press release and of all of those and the 11 categories included Apple TV plus got 72 Emmy nominations including actually a writing nomination for slow horses which made me particular but actually personally I don't know why writing is considered bung that in the press release I actors I I know because we see actors and we don't see writers we don't see directors I get why some things are more high-profile and the whole purpose of the m is is to get people watching but yes but I I I think the way it works is they announced the categories and there's all these subcategories and they come out kind of in a press release style yeah no so so of course we cover it and it's just about the main show and we get on about our business we go about our day and then Apple's like um by the way you guys said we got 11 uh here's a list of 72 72 Emy nominations that they got so you know of course we updated the article and that's all that's all well it robbed there because I knew there'd be more I just I foolishly I think actually know I didn't expect all the rest of them to be announced quite so soon cuz actually I mean just to add to the complexity there are multiple Emmy Award ceremonies this uh the children family yes that's it you know and I don't know whether apples up for children award outstanding hair styling in a miniseries or movie I think is a category and actually I can kind of understand that there you go there's a winner right there yes okay I I I do Wonder William so we we also got another video from Apple this week that might get an em year don't know which one that is oh no I do I do oh goodness me uh dfy de marier uh the birds Aid Hitchcock the film Birds the Privacy one of all these cameras flying around like sparrows following people's every move until they reach somebody with an iPhone yeah I you know say about Pace on the The Underdogs one I think that ad is too long for what it does yeah yes it well you know what they're going to do William uh this is the they they run the full length ad on YouTube for us to go find this full length ad isn't going to play anywhere in in the planet uh they're going to chop it up and show a stinger Apple privacy whatever at the end of a 3se second ad where there's a bird camera hopping on someone's head right so like um but this extended edition right the whole story I I find I I enjoyed it I it's not you know it's not it's not The Underdogs um it's only a few minutes long and uh I think it's just well done as far as the details about um it's a camera that kind of transforms they should have played the Transformers theme into kind of a a flying bird camera thing bats at at one moment they look like bats um and they're just following people around staring at their phones and people are kind of catching wind of this and they start running from them that's where I I I I kind of started getting the feel for the the birds you know Al Alfred Hitchcock and then the one that flew into the window that was just clearly a call back to uh the birds as well and there's just so so much of that that was just fun but one detail I noticed I wonder if you picked up on is everyone that's getting spied on was using an Android phone I thought that was entirely the point yes but but you know you know viewers might be so concerned watching all of the cameras that they might not notice the devices they're using you know I I know I'm uniquely weird in the fact that I pay attention to every phone and tablet and computer that people use in media so it was immediately apparent that these aren't iPhones but I did want to point out that apple had a missed opportunity here they didn't show anyone using an iPhone with chrome installed being spied on okay right yeah yeah that I think you've gone further there than I would in that that's a level of detail Beyond which we anyway I so of course Apple the the the the end of the ad is well after all the scary terrible stuff being harassed and targeted by these evil camera Birds uh iPhone users just tap Safari and all the cameras explode around them the end and great fun it was fun fun little ad there um I don't know what Apple's doing in their ad ad department but normally we get the cool ones around Christmas time so I'm glad we're seeing more of this throughout the year I do think I mean visually it can't I can't conceive of it being done any better than it was it's marvelously done but just they spent a lot of money on that ad you could tell that that was a very expensive ad for sure I I'm willing to bet that it was cheaper to make The Underdogs video than it was to make the the Privacy ad yeah quite possibly I mean uh underdogs take place racing around Thailand and so um that's yeah quite a lot of cast and crew to get over there and stuff and it must have been an extend one CGI camera bird yes yes yeah you're already over budget this episode is brought to you by FastMail you've got email I've got email and actually you're going to hear this by the end of the episode email is is the best way to reach me it's my favorite way to communicate but you could well now be thinking oh that's is nice for him whereas for you email could be this huge mountain every day it's like the mandatory part of your job that keeps you from doing your work or sometimes from having lunch well FastMail is built for you actually I think it might as well have been built by you all of the problems you have with the volume of email the distractions of it sometimes you know the complexity of it all these are all the same issues that the makers of fast mail have faced themselves they've just done something about it actually they've just done a lot about it really uh there are oh so many examples custom swipe options okay I mean with a flick of your finger you can do with some EMA emails just immediately and then when you have to work a bit harder and read a bit more and just be in and out of emails well then FastMail provides folders and labels to help you just sort it out to organize your way through them as quickly as possible and then I keep coming back to this one example as as proof proof it seems to me that fast mes developers are clearly fast mail users and all it is is the snooze function with some email apps actually including Apple's snooze uh it's meant to remind you of an email later to let you put it out of your mind for now and yet of course be sure to be reminded of it at the right time but what most of them do is they might set up a reminder of some description but they just leave the email in your inbox all the time so there you are you're too busy to deal with this and yet every time you you have to launch your email app to go send some mail to someone else well there it is it's still there that snooze message is in your face in your inbox snoozing should take an email off your plate take it out of your head and the only way to do that is to also take it out of your inbox which is therefore precisely what FastMail does here's an email you can't deal with it now but it's so important it'll keep pressing away at your head except now it won't because it's gone it's gone but you know FastMail will bring it back at a time you've said a time when you are able to deal with it that's such a simple idea but FastMail does it right where others do it wrong because I think the makers a fast mail they get it this isn't some kind of race ad features for the sake of it it's a case of making what email users need try for yourself see for yourself go and make email better for yourself with fast ma try FastMail free for 30 days and get 10% off your first year at fastmail.com apppp Insider that's FastMail f a m a i l.com slapple inssider and thanks to FastMail for supporting the Apple Insider podcast but of course uh that's not all we have to talk about with privacy a lot is going on uh in the world and uh we won't get into uh any political stuff here but of course uh the terrible incident in the United States of an attemp attempted assassination led to a oddly specific Tech angle that we honestly couldn't have um predicted uh but I guess we should have known by now because this happened with San berardino this happened with Pensacola and the various other Shooters and other problems uh in the United States and uh the FBI got a hold of of a phone now I wanted to talk about this specifically for two reasons cuz uh this got resolved very quickly um and people were you know discovering My article hours after the conclusion of the story The Arc had finished the FBI had gotten into this said device and people were finding my article saying but they got into it didn't they I'm like well I didn't know that when I wrote this so I can't predict the future uh so people kind of uh didn't pay attention to time stamps there but um I was prognosticating that oh no here we go again the FBI is going to be knocking on Apple's door cuz we we didn't know the device it could have been a Google device Android or could have been an iPhone that still hasn't been revealed probably won't be whatever it's not important to the story and honestly this assassination attempt isn't important to the story My prognostication was more concerned of the overall view if you actually read the words I write is where One Security incident away from the United States trying to compel Apple to open a back door yet again and I think it's really important that despite it not being the front page despite it not being on our minds continuously that we should always keep it somewhere in the back of our mind that this is a threat that there is there are not just in the United States but around the world governments that don't understand technologies that want to give good guys access to devices right quote unquote good guys back doors to encryption but that's not how encryption Works a door is a door bad guys can use it too so all that said um I just found it interestingly timely that I wrote this and then here we are a day later uh learning about celebrite and their hacking devices not working on the latest iPhones running the latest operating systems what do you know about that I think there's some people at Apple Park having a nice lunch thinking finally we beat them for a bit for a while uh what's happened is a very specific leak of documents and the documents dated April to it's ready for so things could have changed but there's this long list of iPhones that as of that moment cannot be unlocked by the celbrate uh software some of them are listed as coming soon which might be optimistic might be true others are in research which sounds like we haven't figured this out yet but again at some point they probably all were in research but ultimately right now if you have an iPhone newer than 5 years old and you've updated it to iOS 17.4 or later celebrite can't unlock it and I I think that's a good thing I mean I sound like I'm anti-law enforcement there but uh I'm not it's a complicated discussion well so basically what's happened is in iOS 17.4 whatever hole celebrite found to get into iPhones has been patched it's a simple as that and they will just find a different hole and go with that route in 17.4 and above of when they find it that's why it's in progress It's not a it's not a if it's a when that they will find there's always exploit software it's not perfect it's not impenetrable um but right now it is protected it it just the the it circles back on the discussion of the Assassin's phone uh in this case the FBI either it was an Android device and those are easier to get into there less so don't let me be biased um you know today they have uh enclaves like Apple secure Enclave on device they have uh intend encrypted uh systems that require passwords to unlock the encrypted side of things they're they've emulated Apple in a lot of ways that direction for the better like I I think it's good that Android users have access to similar security protections that iPhone users do but they're also notoriously easier to get into because there's just more holes that to use the same analogy as before there's more holes in the Android side of things to crawl into to find your way into a system than on Apple's because Apple can controls the whole stack Android less so because you have the hardware stack and the software stack being controlled by multiple different companies so uh they're easier generally to get into so either the phone was Android and that was the case and they were able to just bypass it using one of the many ways to do so or it was an iPhone running iOS 17.3 right that's or 17 or iOS 16 or you what have you or is an older iPhone device it could been an iPhone 10 we don't know but in this this case they succeeded in getting through but had they not it would have been pandemonium yet again and there would have been subpoenas and courts and Tim Cook on the stand telling them that that's not how iOS works and while it didn't happen this time I I will say you know given the state of the world that we're in it feels like it it's inevitable that it will happen again and we having this discussion again so I just that piece that I wrote maybe about an assassination attempt that happened this past week it might be about you know them not being able to get in the phone at that second and then I think 2 hours later actually getting into it um there is actually but the information in between the information in between all of that I think is the timely conversation that we should be having yes I agree but there is actually a third option given how fast it was maybe somebody in the shoter family knew his passcode it could be as simple as that and the family is cooperating yes I no question you this is going to come up again and and not I think just from uh uh Apple or Google should be doing this but also it's very easy for politicians to blame Apple and Google well we've just had a government change here but the last slot um at one point the conservative government in the UK actually said they were in discussions with apple to get a back door into iOS and at the time Apple basically said who no they had they had never even been contacted and that's what our government was saying publicly and it's just you know it's all politics again we're not we're not getting into on this show but technology part of the discussion wanted to mention it here and uh of course as always please feel free to reach out talk to us uh let us know what you think about this privacy debacle uh I still am on the side of consumer privacy protections encryption all of that is very important and if we give that up there's no going back yes there's no and there are other ways through these systems be it paying the Israeli firm celebrite some unknown sum of money to get access to their hacking tools because they found a back door not a back door but a a route through the encryption that Apple hasn't patched yet right that is one of many ways of course there's also the option of just not relying on the phone for investigations but let's get off this very dreary subject and uh talk about something a little bit more fun like advertisements I did not know where that was going to go then but okay as in this case though I know what you mean and it's I know it because you explained it to me um what's the name of the company that Apple just signed a deal with tomola or something tabula right you said to me oh and I've lost it again Chum something what's the type of ads you explaining to me it's the Chum Bucket from SpongeBob pants no no no I'm joking it is a chumbox chumbox ads are so if anyone navigating the internet has seen them before I guarantee it at the bottom of any article or any website that has these kinds of ads you will see uh six doctors agree that this will kill you or uh you you know this this this has a box of puppies you'll never know what the other thing in there is or click here to find out what the top seven things this Kardashian thinks right like is it's just that is a chumbox ad and tabula is famous for them basic or inFAMOUS I suppose uh and they're an increasingly wealthy ad firm um big enough and Wealthy enough apparently to climb into bed with Apple so uh what what do you know about this situation well I hadn't heard the word before uh but I've Seen Those ads and I have resisted them uh but if trying to forget should we say uh the quality of headlines that they produced uh what you just said then about them being big enough that's the issue it's a Global Network so apple is able to use one company worldwide and you can see the appeal of that for there's there is an opportunity to have a rational discussion here Apple could be there's there is a possibility now hear me out working with them to use their Network to produce good ads now this is all about Apple news I don't know if we've said that yet so Apple has partnered with tabula to provide ads for Apple news oh and also the Apple stocks app which I had no idea had ads in because when do I ever open the stocks up but apparently it's run by Apple news it's just like a subcategory of Apple news basically fair you think there's a you think there's a future there a good future well I wanted to I only wanted to have this discussion because um there's people out there I I've seen this before well I pay for Apple news plus why don't I get an adree experience for all of Apple news well there's many reasons but the simplest answer is Apple news is a news aggregating app Apple serving Apple Insider articles for example isn't um Apple running Apple Insider and Publishing articles on Apple news right they're Gathering URLs from the internet like an RSS client and pushing them into their device and uh when someone opens a an article in Apple news they're nine times out of 10 uh going to open it in Apple news in a format for Apple news and if that content is being shown to the user without going to the website the uh publisher needs to be paid somehow um and that is done by having embedded ads just like the website would have within the article on Apple news so it's a it's a symbiotic relationship uh you cannot unless Apple closed off Apple news and said no one gets in unless you participate in a paid subscription service and it just becomes very complex after that and then they have to Dey out the payments and you just can't do a news aggregator ad free um I don't think like there could be an adree section Apple news plus technically is an adree section filled with magazines which have ads in them or um you know premium content from various Publishers that don't have ads which is a nicer experience but the overall app getting all of the webs information from all of these sources that use Apple news has to have some kind of monetization strategy and the only way to do that is ADS so just just to make it clear it's right now impossible I I I don't know of a a way to do it that would make sense in given the current model of Apple news to not have ads so in this world where we need ads for this app to function where do we get them from and Apple news has been notorious for being terrible about ads that I don't even understand where half of these things come from they're certainly not and okay to be fair Google ads are garbage too I'm advertised different kinds of um women's underwear and uh cheese that will make my muscles grow I don't know just it's Google ads are just absolutely out of this world lately or take this quiz and to find out if you're as smart as uh Steve jobs or whatever like that's the kind of Google ads I'm seeing um so I they're all bad uh and maybe I don't know working with tabula getting Under One Roof advertising wise maybe they'll have a little more control and be able to control the quality a little bit more but more cynical take is actually no this is just going to be bad it's just going to be worse we're going to get your see your doctor about these different kinds of skin conditions within you know that kind of I don't know it's just terrible I realized one thing we don't know is whether Apple has kind of seeded the whole thing to this company as um I when I looked on radio times.com the system they had there was that they had a small little ad sales team that sold as many ads as they could and uh whenever they could there was always so many slots on the page and radio times if they couldn't fill them they handed that slot over to what was called a network ad and there would be a company that would you know get bids for people and any company could bid to be on radi times through it so it meant for the magazine they got lesser quality cheaper ads appearing every now and again but at least all the holes were filled through this company uh I don't know whether uh Apple is going to carry on selling itself and letting these people in the holes but we'll see I imagine we'll see quite a lot yeah if I had a wish for apple and the advertising game is I've seen other people say apple doesn't need ads I get I get the the point Point you're making but they're already in the business they're not leaving it so my argument would be is if Apple's going to be in ads for the App Store and for Apple news because that's the only places they have an ad business right now do it better just do the Apple thing and find a way to do it better stop don't because right now what apple is doing especially in Apple news is they're doing what the rest of the web is doing is they're just selling banners and sidebar things that get automatically populated based on some sort of um IP address data aggregate or whatever right they're and they're auctioning off these ads and they're all terrible because nobody I I have yet to meet a human being who has seen an ad and said I'm going to click on that I'm going to follow through I'm going to buy the thing they're they're selling me like it's presumably enough do that it's worth them carrying on but apparently there there there's this business of billions of people apparently doing this but I just I just haven't met any of them maybe I just don't live in the right circles or something but actually sorry I just I just put this together in my head you are the perfect person to ask this um adverts for games yeah in so many iPhone uh apps there'll be a little commercial for a game without fail the game looks so awful and so amateur and just embarrassment to have it on my screen uh I Come Away thinking all iPhone games are Dreadful is it just the Dreadful ones that advertise are they good so are you're talking about like Clash of Clans and gin impact and stuff like that I can't say any of the names have ever gone into my head I've just thought right really or are you talking about the little stick figure guy and there's like a pool of lava and a pool chain saying pull this chain and save the lady in the gold and I don't know like the cuz those are obviously sort of thing yeah sure well those are not real games and um those are actually fishing ads that force you to go to a website that try to sell you something uh someone has actually I I I don't have the website off hand you're just going to have to find it but um someone actually went and said hey you know all those dumb ad games that don't exist I went and made those and put them into an app so you can go and try them they're all terrible um but yeah they're all they're all fake clickbait basically they're like trying to entice you to click on the ad it's forcing you to like try to participate in this game when in fact all it does is redirect you to an ad website that tries to sell you something um but if you're talking about actually actual app advertisements eh they have money they're going to they're going to advertise that's just the internet do they look bad that they probably just look bad to you Clash of Clans is one of the most popular games on the planet I don't know uh for some reason people still play it I don't play it but like they're successful for a reason they're addicting people like them uh ads ads work I guess but for me being the conscious consumer that I am I don't need advertising other people do generally speaking the the point of advertising is to inform the consumer that your product exists the whole idea is I don't know 200 years ago we figured out I don't know maybe centuries ago but I'm talking about more modern venues not uh poster board on the side of the Greek uh Market um I'm talking about Modern Advertising exists as a part of capitalism to say I have a product that you want but you don't know that you want it until you just saw this billboard for it um um and then we've commoditized that to the point of flashing Java banners and Yahoo uh Internet Explorer toolbars right like that and that was the the bottom and that was terrible for the internet uh and then we've crawled out of that terrible hole and now here we are today with Google's version of it which is better than that adwar garbage but still not that great and I still think there's a better way to advertise uh because technically speaking need it um how else you discover new things it's just we've gone down this Rabbit Hole of making it the race to the bottom to where anything can be an ad you can advertise politics you can advertise uh apps or toothbrushes or and it it's lost all meaning we're no longer trying to say hey my thing is so amazing come see it no now ads are about here's this link on my web page I don't care what it shows as long as a detector in the code can detect that you your eyes or your browser page stayed on this ad long enough we can pay pennies on the dollar to the website for you seeing this thing it doesn't matter what it is and now that because of that part because of the doesn't matter part they can show you whatever they want and it's just the and the race seems to be continuing they're just continuing to make these things worse so I pause it through this whole discussion that we've had in 5 minutes on ads um that Apple could maybe prove they can do it better because yeah sure there there there's consumers like me out there that get their information from other resources journalism blogs whatever uh so I personally don't always need advertising I know what socks I want to buy I know what clothes that I like to have I like I know what video games I'm going to buy because I get the information from other places but ads do serve a purpose maybe you didn't know this movie existed maybe you didn't know this product existed or this perfect like this in a perfect world Google knowing what you just bought at Walgreens and what geographic location that you're in and what relationship you have to McDonald's will produce the perfect ad for the toothpaste that you've always wanted okay sure that that maybe in a perfect world that could technically work but I think it's broken and yet apple is following the same path as everyone else in this race to the bottom of show sh this garbage in Apple news and maybe we deserve better and maybe Apple could show us what's better but they haven't yet is this a good or a bad time to advertise Apple Insider plus there are good ads like yes like you mentioned there's ads in our podcast uh the the the partners for Apple Insider we select we don't just let anyone come in we we reject some of them because they're just not good products or they just don't belong on our podcast and then the people who don't want to hear those ads can pay money for Apple Insider plus and so this has turned into an advertisement for a program that you enjoy that you listen to and maybe you didn't know that hey I can get this ad free and get a bonus segment guess what I just advertised to you but was that useful probably right I actually studied marketing um I did a computer course in college and I had an option of more maths which I was weak on at the time or marketing and I took marketing believeing it' be easier and it wasn't but what I really learned was the entire point of marketing is find you have a product you find the person who will like it that it will be useful for and you get it to them so they are aware of it uh my marketing Ledger had this phrase for the opposite they're just sort of mass advertising he called that spray spray and prey you just shout at everybody whereas marketing should be rifle shoty called it these days that's possibly not a great term but he meant directed for it and I always felt that with things like app insida plus we're telling you about this thing cuz we think you will like it and yeah that feels right to me I have nothing against advertising at all except for the Dreadful games that I'm now even more suspicious of on my iPhone thanks to you have have I said anything crazy here I I genuinely believe that there is a place in the world for advertising and commercials or what what have you it's just it's gotten so so bad and now here we are at this weird place in the internet we I know we got to conclude we're in this weird place in the internet where Google and companies like it have spent the last 20 years telling everyone this is how you monetize the internet and then they pulled the rug out from under us with this AI business that isn't really Ai and claiming that oh it's all safe it's all it's all kosher all this data that we've collected about you promising to deliver ads is actually now going to undermine your business right and so so in the race to the bottom and we're showing worse and worse ads we're making a worse and worse internet now we're being told that all of that is worthless and um advertising can't pay the bills anymore and AI is the future and now we're just kind of like what what was the point then and I guess the point was to get all of our data so they can train these Bots um I I don't know what the answer is what's next for the internet but I I will say more tasteful better advertising could be a start and that's where Partnerships come in that's where collaborations come in that's why when you see sponsored content on Apple Insider that isn't us saying hey this guy just paid us to to talk about this garbage no it's because we had an honest thought that maybe this might be something useful to somebody and yeah there's there's money exchang in the background but that's how our business can exist and if sorry you just reminded me this is not Apple inside and this is I can't remember what FM it was 15 years ago something like that I was doing something else now I wasn't looking for advertisers or anything like that but I was approached by a mattress company who said if you write something good about us and keep it up for a year we'll pay you $20 and I went back to him and saying you know look whatever the topic was it was nothing to do with beds there's no way this is of any interest to my lists of viewers whatever it was and they came and say all right all right $30 yeah no I stopped that conversation there but okay well I would like to say this is the Apple Insider podcast it's Tech show and part of tech I suppose is this I mean um this discussion that we've been having and uh so I I I would like to hear what you guys have to say about you know advert how do you feel about advertising do you go about your day and use Tik Tok and Instagram and just swipe past the ads and not even think about it do you find any of them useful have you ever clicked on something in an ad and bought it I know like it just the whole thing it feels like it's a contract that's broken and maybe maybe Apple can fix it maybe someone else can fix it I don't know maybe Google is shooting itself in the foot here and is going to break the internet for a couple years until we figure out a new way to monetize it but I just find the whole thing very interesting as a discussion and uh a good place to uh end the show there's more that we could have covered we'll probably throw it in the show notes anyway Apple's um selling some iPhones they do they do good money there uh uh their stock market PR uh went up very quickly because uh people think that Apple intelligence is going to drive an iPhone 16 super cycle lots of stuff like that but good show today William I think uh they people want to have this conversation continue it maybe they won't find you on the internet where can they find you uh I've been saying this a lot l in fact I said during the ad read which I just mentioned now um the email is the one for me one of our sponsors is fast mail and I think it's just an amazing service um for contacting people email is my favorite way because I just enjoy that film of sometimes long form communication rather than the odd little tweet but you're more of a well notot a tweeter you're a master Dona aren't you yeah uh toot is their uh verb I suppose yeah uh because it's an elephant and they toot with their trunk or maybe it's a trumpet uh they they've because people have used trumpets there as well yeah it's a very silly name that they people have tried to get rid of they tried to call it post for a while but uh the word toot keeps coming back so I think it's here to stay um no I yeah I use midon it's where I am um you can always follow me there chat with me please of course have a discussion about the podcast I love to hear from you you know um email can be found for me and William both on any article that we've written and uh yeah reach out talk to us about the show talk to us about nasty old advertising and uh leave a review uh we've been getting some excellent reviews on the uh podcast app uh you can review us there any podcast of app of your choice I believe overcast let you do stars there's all these different ways that you can rate the show or uh have discussions about it just you know reach out and let us know what you think always happy to hear uh plus of course you're often onome kit insid up insiders Monday um Monday morning uh sorry I had a time zone flip there it's middle of the night for me when that pops up I believe uh I'll be missing out on the next couple episodes and uh as well here on Apple Insider I will be on vacation so you won't probably not hear me next week and you certainly won't hear me the week after and uh but I will return to discuss the future and uh I won't reveal the plans for them because I don't think we know yet and uh but yes I I will be back from vacation eventually so if you do not hear me for a couple weeks don't worry I will return vacation of oh I know I T I mistakenly picked ticked the vocation box uh when I started out that's where I went wrong isn't it clearly of course well I'd like to thank our you're fine I'd like to thank our sponsors once again Zach do and FastMail and thank everyone for listening and stick around for app Insider plus you know uh it's going to be a fun one wearable technology and uh our history and our favorite ideas around it and uh we'll talk to you guys next week\n"